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Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek

Tragic Loss of Life

This [censored] really saddens me. My thoughts go out to the victims, survivors and all their families.


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GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted: Written by: Lurch


Wow some of you guys are really off base. Something is wrong with Western Culture? The kid was South Korean, he wasn't even from here. It must be us American's fault for letting him do this to us I guess. All of you who are crying for more gun laws are grossly misguided. There are plenty of gun laws, we do NOT need more of them. If you want to ask for anything how about enforcing the ones we currently have instead of making more?

He could have, and would have done a lot more damage with a simple car bomb over a shooting spree, so don't tell me guns are the reason he killed so many. People with CCW's by in large are good, honest, law abiding citizens. Making more gun laws and restrictions does nothing to prevent criminals from commiting crime. It does however prevent us good people from protecting ourselves.

What the hell is you peoples problem? 33 people are dead, the question of creating, more laws is pointless, laws did not, and could not stop this from happening. People following those laws could not stop this from happening because they were following those laws. They were defenseless purely because the school was legally a "gun free zone." Those are just words on a piece of paper, that do nothing but stop the people who follow the rules. If there had been someone else armed, a properly trained and licensed civilian, this whole thing *could* have been stopped long before the total reached 33.

Right now, the LAW, filled that building with a bunch of defenseless sheep, hiding behind desks until their turn came. Their ability to fight back was removed by the gun laws that you people want to make stricter. I for one would want the ability to fight back if someone intended to kill me..

I guess you guys would just stand there and take it since you don't want people to fight back.



That is just censored in MHO!!!


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:mad2 censored censored mad2

You are repeating the same false ignorant and fascistic slogans every time the discussion goes out for you to surrender your beloveth toys. Pls go seek alternatives and counselling...

 Written by: Luch

laws did not, and could not stop this from happening



BECAUSE THEY ARE INACCURATE!

NOPE - I would have attacked him WITH MY BARE HANDS IF NECESSARY! As IF I have to die anyway, I will make the censored work hard for it.

*goes puking*


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:YOUR WORDS ARE PURE POISON! mad2 (to me at least)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:He BROKE THE LAWS. He did not follow them, what makes you think making more would change it?

Please do, tell me whats wrong with me wanting to protect myself. You can bury your head in the sand if you want when someone comes knocking on your door with a gun, but don't force me to do the same.


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pineapple pete
pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne
Member Since: 20th Sep 2004
Total posts: 5125
Posted:there is nothing wrong with wanting to protect yourself,.. on the other hand, this is *not* an isolated case, it is a reccuring event of which (evidently) not enough action has been taken to prevent a repetition of.

hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:There is a completely separate issue in this though. This was a college campus, with people legally of age, licensed and wanting to carry weapons for their personal protection. Legislation and laws were passed that specifically prohibited them from doing so, and this was the result. Those rules did not, and could not prevent the gunman from carrying his weapon on campus, it does however ensure that no law abiding citizen has a weapon to stop him with.

How does that sound *right* to anyone?


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: pineapple pete


(evidently) not enough action has been taken to prevent a repetition of.



frown god theres something wrong there. so many children and such a high death count.

stone, i find what you said (although not original) definatly the best summery of the gun culture in the US.

 Written by: stone

sure, Those who live by the sword die by the sword.



"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Let me give you all a lesson on prevention....



Primary prevention: target everyone with no discrimination as to who you preach to

Effectiveness: almost nil

Secondary prevention: target those deemed "at risk" for said problem

Effectiveness: slightly better depending on the situation

Tertiary prevention: take the stance that "ok we know this is going to happen regardless of what we do so let's minimize the damage and make it as best of a situation as possible"

Effectiveness: by and large the best





The world created guns a long time ago. We can't take it away. Making guns illegal would only serve to harm the people who would best be protected by owning one...the law abiding citizens in the first place. Making guns illegal won't stop criminals, they will still find a way to make and/or obtain a firearm. This epidemic will not go away. I don't remember the country exactly, but I think it's Switzerland that makes every citizen spend 2 years in the military, and the whole country is automatically armed with a firearm. Their crime rate? Almost nil. Put yourself in the shoes of someone like Cho. Would you walk into a public place with the intent to shoot as many people as you can knowing that 90% of the people there carried a weapon? Think about it!!! I'm not saying we should arm every person in America, but crime rates are not going to go down if we take away guns from the people who do abide the law. Instead we will be leaving that many more people defenseless.



I own a firearm, and I have a concealed carry permit. I did this not because I'm a huge gun fanatic. The thing scares me. But I work in a situation where I run a decent risk of coming across a violent person, someone who would be able to find a firearm if they needed to and attack me with it. I spent a lot of time resarching weapons, practicing at a gun range, talking with people who owned weapons, before I purchased one. And believe me, buying a gun is not as easy thing. And getting your concealed carry permit is even harder. When we enforce these laws, the system can work.



Trust me, my heart goes out to the families of this tragedy. But making guns illegal won't change murders from happening. We had mass murdering before guns were in existence. It's called human nature. It's sad, it's sick, it's terrifying, but it's reality. I for one don't want to waste my time and energy on changing the gun laws....I know my time would be MUCH better spent educating parents and children, teaching people to care for one another, to watch for the signs of mental illness or potential violence in someone. How many of you know your neighbors names or what they do for a living? When was the last time you did something nice for a random stranger? Do you remember the last time someone did something kind for you for no reason? Do you remember how it felt or how it changed your day? Those are the things that will change problems like these.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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biggins
biggins

member
Location: In Bed
Member Since: 6th Sep 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted: Written by: Pele


.........Why can't people like this just shoot themselves without taking everyone else with them? That is what I *really* want to know.



pele, sometimes your posts truly are special. thats right up there with:

 Written by:

speaking as "[insert nationality here]" i believe that the best wasy to control guns is to use both hands



this world and some ppls views are insensitive stoopid. as bill hicks once said we truly are a "virus with shoes"

The questions should maybe be:

as a foreign national on his own in a foreign land why did his friends/university not there for him or help him through the rejection/break up with however it was he shot first. thus possibly facilitating some form of non-violent outlet of his hurt/pain/whatever.....something was obviously wrong.

and

why could he get firearms so quickly and easily especially as he was a foreign national on US soil?? something not quite right there either.

and another thing...why in the national paper here does this story have four pages of coverage and the 60 (i think) people killed in a car bomb in iraq get a page space approximately 5cms by 5cms?? both are bad but which, in the greater scheme of things is the more shocking news item??...answers in another thread.


Wielding a Wooden Spoon

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, why are Americans so paranoid? Paranoia being an excessive anxiety or fear concerning one's own well-being which is considered irrational and excessive, perhaps to the point of being a psychosis.

Mr Majestik, I think that one comes from the bible Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52).

From Guns could have prevented massacre, says lobbyist *cough*

US media have been quick to frame Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean-born man, as a mentally disturbed 'loner' whose erratic shooting spree ended in suicide.

But the real shaping factors in the crime require a broader perspective on US culture, according to Joseph Gasper, a professor of sociology at Johns Hopkins University.

"I would urge people to avoid attributing the crime in Virginia to the mental illness of an individual and focus on the myriad of social factors that would play a role in this sort of violent crime," Mr Gasper said.

He pointed to factors such as social marginalisation, violence in the media, masculinity issues and easy access to guns as among the key factors that need to be examined.

"It's very clear that in a lot of American movies and TV there is a link between manhood and violence, telling young men who are having social problems that, 'Hey, take a gun and kill people,' (and they) can be very empowered," Mr Gasper said.

He said those messages take root in fragile minds but also find their way into culture and society.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:was watchig the news this morning and by the sounds of it this lad had deep issues that some teachers noticed, one even pulled him out her class. he was offered therapy also............



TBH it dosen't supprise me this appened AGAIN rolleyes



is itsomething in the water over there that somehow creates either complete idiots or psycho's???





*go's in search of video evidence.








if this is how dumb the police are then there is no hope for you ubblol


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:ubblol thats such a troll thing to post ravehead, but ubblol

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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biggins
biggins

member
Location: In Bed
Member Since: 6th Sep 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted:aaaahahaha.......

*wipes tea from computer monitor*


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:hrm, heres a crazy secenario:

University removes "gun free zone" setting, enabling students to legally carry firearms on themselves at all time for protection. one day, a disgurntled student comes to school with two handguns and starts shooting the place up. immediately 5 students who just happened to be carrying that day respond by drawing their firearms. then they realise "f**k, theres 4 psychos here trying to kill everyone, its up to me to stop them". then along come another 4 well intentioned students who just happened to be carrying that day, "[censored] theres a gang war going on in my school, need to protect my friends". then the police arrive "wtf!?!?!? people in plain clothes shooting everywhere".....*shot first ask later*.

yeah, the right to carry would make me feel safer...... umm


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I don't believe that American's are paranoid. Given what has just happened do you really think that a desire to *not* be stripped of my ability to protect myself is excessive or irrational?



We live in violent times, there are violent people all over. In every part of the world, I accept that, I acknowledge that. I don't believe that makes me paranoid. People are far too willing to ignore that fact because it makes them uncomfortable. School violence IS a huge issue, world wide, not just in the states. The answer isn't more laws though, the answer is in education.



American's aren't paranoid, there are just some of us who take our lives seriously, and look at the world through a different set of eyes. I've discussed on here sheep and sheepdogs before so I'm not going to go over all that again, but I do think that this might explain a little bit of where I'm coming from...



"When it comes time, sheep bleat, but the knife falls anyways. Do something to survive. Don't let your mind stay with a "this can't be happening to me," attitude. There are two types of aggression: defensive, and predatory. The zebra is always on the defensive, always living in a constant state of stress. The lion feels no stress. The lion is the stress. Which are you: the zebra or the lion?



The lion's only real enemy is another predator: man. Our worst enemy is also the human predator. Fortunately the true predator, the sociopath who feeds without remorse on his own kind, is rare. Still, you should never assume that he is not out there. Usually, the predator does not give any verbal cues; he stands calmly and then attacks violently, forcing you to react to his action... When a sheep gets bit they go "Baa" roll over and die. When a sheepdog gets bit, he gets pissed off and bites back."



Not everyone needs to carry a weapon, the world could be a very scary place if that were indeed true. That isn't want I want. I know there are a majority of people that don't have any interest in doing so. They have their wishes, and are more than able to go about that. I however, would like to be able to protect myself and my loved ones no matter the situation.



To be honest, the reason I bought my firearms were not because of humans, I spend a lot of time in the woods, where there are animals, usually of the four legged variety that don't always take kindly to the two legged presence. The sad fact is that the two legged predators are far more dangerous than any others on the planet.





Now, I'm not a religious man, but if you're going to start quoting the bible as a moral guide why not use all of it?



"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" Luke, 22:36


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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:ubblol sorry it wasn't ment as a troll post honest guv' ubbangel

it dose make you wonder though, there must be something inherantly wrong over in the states................maybe it's all the sterroids they do or maybe it's all the chemicals in the food confused


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:It's called training so they can make those "mistakes" ubbloco

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:*bows out* I have nothing to add, but that now the sorry ass excuse is: But he wasn't even American - how long did he live in the US????

Go ahead, continue to shoot each other and to stick those guns up your rear end.

We can all go back to business and laugh our rear ends off about how perverted and bizarre the world is today.

Very respectful to the past and present victims, their families and of course to the future ones.

Makes me miss Burning man another year, but I won't compromise my principles.

Next time I hear an American leash out against the injustice in the world, or whine that the rest of the world envies and hates the US because it's the best... I will simply not listen and walk away.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:why is it every time i contribute to a discussion, my opinion is never replied to and conveniently overlooked? why do i even try anymore?

FireTom....if you want to "bow out" of this conversation because you're pissed at Lurch's opinion, that's your perogative. but i felt i raised some interesting points and would have loved to see your take on them. but i guess you're approach of "simply not listen[ing] and walk[ing] away" is much more a mature debate technique.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted: Written by: Lurch


Wow some of you guys are really off base. Something is wrong with Western Culture? The kid was South Korean, he wasn't even from here. It must be us American's fault for letting him do this to us I guess.



So Lurch, its as easy as that is it? It makes sense seeing as the guy from South Korea? With that reasoning DAMN RIGHT it was the American's fault for letting a South Korean - foreigner - get his hands on two guns, one of them legally. I'm Chinese so God forbid anyone sell ME a gun once I step onto American Soil! Never know *I* might start shooting people in schools, kill myself and laugh about it in heaven along with my fellow foreigners Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold!

 Written by: Lurch


I guess you guys would just stand there and take it since you don't want people to fight back.



This is the tricky part, now that illegal guns are in vast circulation (and you can guaratee that those who own them will probably not be attending any gun amnesties any time soon) you are right in saying they need protection from those who aren't afriad to use them. But there should be tighter control on who can buy both guns an ammunition, almost like a driving licence. Do they still give away rifles with new bank accounts?

Speaking of which, for all of Michael Moore's melodramtic rhetoric, the image of Charlton Heston holding his rifle aloft bellowing 'FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!' and being met with a standing ovation speaks volumes about a mentality that clings onto the 2nd Amendment with pride in being allowed to bear arms instead of needing it for protection. I seriously wonder if the same people who cling to the 2nd Amendment still honour the 10 Commandments and turn their backs on the 7 deadly sins.

For those who say it's disrespectful to turn a tragedy into political grandstanding, personally if I had lost someone in such a tragedy I'd applaud ANY effort into seeing how it happened and how we can prevent it from happening again. Speaking of politics, call me cynical but President Bush's attendance at the memorial seems like a publicity to regain the respect he has since lost during his terms as leader of the country...


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:No, I've been thinking about it awhile pounce.



The problem is education. Sociologically, the culture of the swiss having to join compulsory military service leads to a greater respect for guns and the possible horrors of shooting and killing someone than does our American mass media culture.



We cannot force everyone in the US to go through military service, nor do I think we should. There's just too many people, too many sociopaths out there than I would trust with a military training or assault rifle. But perhaps it would work, perhaps.



The problem with our gun control laws right now is what lurch says - it doesn't always enforce CONTROL. Certain assault and rifle weapons being illegal in one state are legal in others. Guns are sold and bought on the black market with relative ease.



We do either need to ban the things, or recondition/educate our populace to the deadliness and suffering caused by guns, or radically rethink our laws.



Yes, I do hate to politicize this. Yes, I do hate to turn this into a debate. My prayers go out towards the victims, their friends and families, and even the shooter -



But mass shootings of innocents, there were 9 people killed in a shopping mall spree earlier this year in UTAH - OF ALL PLACES - (I thought I would be safe here, the whole place reeks of spirituality) are simply UNACCEPTABLE.



And I do think this is something that we need to change.



These killers, lurch... pounce... whoever wishes to answer -

do you think they care about getting shot back and dying?

They have made the decision - to kill as many as possible...

Guns are an easy and cheap method of doing this. Even bombs take more time, research, resources...



Take away guns from everyone but the policemen, army, and single-shot bolt-action rifles for the hunters - and I feel that we will be much safer.



Lastly, I will quote Molly Ivans-



 Written by:



Guns. Everywhere Guns.



Let me start this discussion by pointing out that I am not antigun. I'm proknife. Consider the merits of the knife.



In the first place, you have to catch up with someone in order to stab him. A general substitution of knives for guns would promote physical fitness. We'd turn into a whole nation of great runners. Plus, knives don't ricochet. And people are seldom killed while cleaning their knives.



As a civil libertarian, I, of course, support the Second Amendment. And I believe it means exactly what it says:



A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Fourteen-year-old boys are not part of a well-regulated militia. Members of wacky religious cults are not part of a well-regulated militia. Permitting unregulated citizens to have guns is destroying the security of this free state.



I am intrigued by the arguments of those who claim to follow the judicial doctrine of original intent. How do they know it was the dearest wish of Thomas Jefferson's heart that teenage drug dealers should cruise the cities of this nation perforating their fellow citizens with assault rifles? Channeling?



There is more hooey spread about the Second Amendment. It says quite clearly that guns are for those who form part of a well-regulated militia, that is, the armed forces, including the National Guard. The reasons for keeping them away from everyone else get clearer by the day.



The comparison most often used is that of the automobile, another lethal object that is regularly used to wreak great carnage. Obviously, this society is full of people who haven't enough common sense to use an automobile properly. But we haven't outlawed cars yet.



We do, however, license them and their owners, restrict their use to presumably sane and sober adults, and keep track of who sells them to whom. At a minimum, we should do the same with guns.



In truth, there is no rational argument for guns in this society. This is no longer a frontier nation in which people hunt their own food. It is a crowded, overwhelmingly urban country in which letting people have access to guns is a continuing disaster. Those who want gunswhether for target shooting, hunting, or potting rattlesnakes (get a hoe)should be subject to the same restrictions placed on gun owners in England, a nation in which liberty has survived nicely without an armed populace.



A "well-regulated militia" surely implies both long training and long discipline. That is the least, the very least, that should be required of those who are permitted to have guns, because a gun is literally the power to kill. For years I used to enjoy taunting my gun-nut friends about their psychosexual hang-upsalways in a spirit of good cheer, you understand. But letting the noisy minority in the NRA force us to allow this carnage to continue is just plain insane.



I do think gun nuts have a power hang-up. I don't know what is missing in their psyches that they need to feel they have the power to kill. But no sane society would allow this to continue.



Ban the damn things. Ban them all.



You want protection? Get a dog.



To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Kael, well put. You're right, something needs to change, but I don't think banning guns will do it. That's why I stress tertiary prevention. If we look at it from that perspective, we minimize the negative effects of a situation that will never be eliminated even if guns are banned. Guns are out there whether we like it or not. It's like trying to close Pandora's Box...it's already there, now we have to deal with it. Prohibition didn't improve alcohol problems. It just forced it to go underground. The smartest thing we did was re-legalize alcohol and then regulate the age of consumption, the consequences for drinking irresponsibly, and tax the hell out of it. If you compare alcohol-related deaths and crimes when it was illegal to when it was regulated and laws were ENFORCED, you would be amazed at the difference in statistics.

And I agree, I don't think we could or should force everyone in the US to go through military service, even if briefly. But the thought as to what effect that would have on a society is an interesting one.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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Ayellayen
Ayellayen

The smart-arse who kisses Rouge's
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Feb 2003
Total posts: 128
Posted:I'm a member of the australian army reserves, and it scares the hell out of me that some of my fellow soldiers get armed with ammunition, considering some of the nuff nuffs that I work with. Let alone people armed with semi, or fully automatic weapons. It only took one mass killing in Australia (the Port Arthur massacre), before all semi and fully automatic rifles were outlawed.
Even though, as infantry, we are expected to carry firearms, and grenades, and rockets and belts of ammunition, and high-explosive rounds and all kinds of lovely things that go bang, it worries me about the people around me that are laying their hands on them.


It's my world - you all just happen to live in it.

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I don't know pounce.



People like to relate guns to objective things like drugs/alcohol, cars, (politicians), and other parts of our society that cause ill effects and suffering but we accept that they are here so we should just try and regulate it.



I relate guns to an idea. That is the idea of murder.



The point of a gun is to kill. That is it's main purpose. A gun has two other purposes that I can think of -

2: for security

3: to intimidate others and/or establish a sense of security



EDIT- I thought of another purpose

4: for sport (take up archery you stupid censored)



I'd like to see a society for all of us, for you and I and my future family, where we don't have to worry about murder or our security.



I feel that tertiary prevention is a cop-out. Some of the deaths could have been prevented if the bystanders had guns? What if all of them could have been prevented by no one having a gun? What if anyone selling/buying an automatic weapon had the fear of death or life in prison looming over their heads? I believe that we CAN, if we as a society truly WANTED to, make these tools of murder obsolete.



But apparently as a society we don't want that. frown

EDITED_BY: KaelGotRice (1176898549)


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I dont know FireTom, sometimes its good to see some humor smile I think its part of the healing process. From an Australian perspective, Id say it brings out the Dingo in us. The Dingo being an Australian sheep dog wink

Lurch, I agree there are plenty of people who live in places where having a gun is a necessity. Where its a part of their life, and livelihood. I grew up on a farm, and as a kid I went up the bush and hunted. I also kept a single barrel shot gun under my bed for many years before I gave it up.

Its a very good point you make when you say Not everyone needs to carry a weapon, the world could be a very scary place if that were indeed true. That isn't want I want. I know there are a majority of people that don't have any interest in doing so.

For sure, the answer is in education. From my perspective, I say a lesson many Americans would benefit from is learning why its time for them to hang up their guns.

As a nation, Australia decided to hand in their guns in an effort to prevent a repeat of the Port Arthur, massacre. Why cant America do the same thing?

To put it bluntly, Id say come on America, you are way over the average when it comes to gun related crimes. Being trigger-happy on the world stage and at home isnt making the world a safer, or better place to live in.

Pounce, I dont know, but its a good question. I dont think we are taking prohibition.

I agree totally Kael, I think we can as a society, if we truly WANTED to, make these tools of murder obsolete. Well said.



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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:i guess the other thing that nobody has yet to mention is the amount of money spent on firearms in the US each year. i'm sure the companies that are producing all these little death sticks sure dont want any kind of hardening of the laws and would be willing to throw millions against anyone that says otherwise.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:The problem is, you're slightly smaller than the lower 48, and have 1/10 the population of the US. Removing every single gun from the mainland US is simply impossible. I would gladly give my guns up if you can ensure me that the criminals don't have them either. Until then, why would I logically ever want to be less armed than whoever may or may not attack me.

And Kael, no, they don't care. The same way suicide bombers don't care. How do you stop a suicide bomber from hurting people? You kill them before they blow themselves up. If the situation is bad enough to slip through the system, go unchecked or just un-noticed, and get to the point where there is someone with a gun, or a bomb, or even a knife, their life has little to no meaning to me at that point.

They may not care about dieing, but I can guarantee that if this gunman were being shot at the whole time, he would not be able to chain the door shut, line people against the wall and patiently shoot each one down the line.

My government has no responsibility to protect me. Likewise to my law enforcement. I would never ask anyone to get into a deadly situation on my behalf. In facts the courts have even upheld that law enforcement has no duty to protect you. Their job is to mop up afterwards, and arrest those guilty. They do not prevent crime. They cannot prevent crime. EVERYONE has a duty to protect themselves. If you're a parent, you have a duty to protect your child. Why anyone would want to shirk that responsibility, or limit their ability to do so is beyond me.

I understand that the majority of the world does not hold our mindset. I understand that most of you guys would prefer there never being guns. But you can akin this to the MADD mentality of the Cold War. As much as you hate cliche' statements "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws would have guns" is never more true. No matter what the good guys, should be better armed than the bad guys. That is what keeps a balance. Better trained, better armed.

British cops are even pushing to have guns now, because the criminals out arm the police. Does that make any sense? in 1988 in reaction to a man going on a rampage and killing people, semi automatic and pump long arms, as well as a number of other firearms were banded in GB. The result was an increase in gun related crimes. It began to settle again, and in 1996 there was another mass killing and by 1997 virtually all firearms have been banned from Great Britain in my understanding. Both bans have been followed by crime spikes.

So we'll put it another way. Many states in the US have been allowing more CCW (concealed weapons). Our violent crimes have been fairly steadily falling. More guns in the population, falling crime. GB in contrast has removed their guns, and seen a direct increase in crime.

The point of a gun is not to kill. It is also to protect, and prevent killing. I'm not for victim disarmament.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Okay - so I'm back into it. shrug

I just felt Luch's post was almost offensive as there was no mentioning of any compassion for neither of the ppl involved and affected... that's just... cold, the least to say.

Pounce, you were pointing at the Swiss and their army - that's exactly one VERY IMPORTANT point: ALL of them have been in the Army! Which is not the case in the US. I live(d) in Germany and visit Switzerland frequently - somehow I never came across bullet stricken roadsigns, somehow I never noticed someone having his rifle displayed in his SUV (which in Texas and Arizona I have) - never I noticed a sign saying: "Don't mess with Switzerland!" Never - I repeat - NEVER I felt uncomfortable or threatened in any way. Maybe it's the case that the Swiss are more civilized than the US??? [/ironic statement]

As far as my informations go, that kid has been living in the US for 15 years... pls correct me if I'm wrong. He had issues. HOW ON EARTH could he allowed to buy a gun??????

Why is there no psychological profiling? Why is there no references that have to be presented before acquiring a gun?

I think the gun laws are flawed. They are incomplete and "enforcing the existing laws" is only the first step. IMHO firearms (in civilian hands) have got to be banned!

Given that US-American woods are filled with T-Rexes and other (hang on) 4 legged beasts you have to protect yourself from... umm My question: Why would you have to go to a place where you KNOW that your life's endangered? Go Anaheim if you want to see some really weird creatures...

"Law abiding citizens" - are you talking about those ones, who haven't been convicted (yet)? However: Is anyone of them required to undergo intense training and a psychological screening? NO!

Personally it seems to me as if "(Unarmed) Self defense" needs to be taught in the US as of elementary school, because actually it would have taken a little courage in a few guys to stop this menace. If he would have faced 5 ppl who go for him (even unarmed), he would have never gotten that far. There is a multitude of scenarios where all this could have been stopped.

Why is this debate coming up every year?

Many in the US seem to respond to (inter)national demands for stricter regulations like a motorist, driving against the traffic on motorways, going: Look at all those lunatics, they are driving the wrong way! umm

IMHO guns are only the modern age version of the stone age axe - we have to get rid of them! The sooner, the better.

Have you ever heard of the term: suicide by cop? umm I can't comply with the idea that a classroom filled with guns is making anyone inside feeling "safe and comfortable". What you reckon the prof should carry then? A laser machine gun + saber + bulletproof vest + hidden behind bulletproof glass + + + ??? Excuse I just don't get your point in that!

Pounce, YOU choose your profession and if you think you need a gun to survive it, then PERSONALLY I would choose a different one... shrug do I make sense to you?


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Actually American gun makers don't dominate defensive weaponry by any means. Beretta and Benelli are Italian, Glock is Austrian, Heckler & Koch German, SigArms Swiss, FN is Belgian, CZ Czech. Even my own pistol (Springfield XD) is a Croation gun that was bought out by an American company (still made in Croatia though)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Then talk about US gun traders if you're incapable of manufacturing high quality arms yourself - the effect is the same.

For your kind information


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