Written by: pounce
Nevertheless, if we implement something like that process, there's this little part of me that is fearful of that small population such as Cho that would only gain better experience on use and aim in shooting. However, if we implemented a psychological evaluation process, perhaps we could eliminate that issues.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: Pele
No one ever said it was isolated and since I live here, I know the state of things here much better than you do actually. If you'd read any of my previous posts, then you'd know that. In fact, I just posted about a different shooting in my last post. Please, before you swallow your foot any further, read through all of my posts thoroughly.
Guns are not the problem. Their use is a symptom of a greater problem which is not being dealt with. Bigotry of many forms, segregation and economics are the problem. .............
Am I saying that these are US only problems? Nope. But I am saying that there is little to no progress in many places to even remotely addressing, let alone solving, these issues and in that the US fails.
Written by: Pele
Guns allow for the death of more people, absolutely but I whole heartedly believe that people who kill would do so with or without a gun.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Written by: Pele
Not anyone can walk into a Wal-Mart and purchase a gun. Especially since in many states it's illegal for WM to sell guns and gun stores in those states are hard-core.
And, in most states it is *much* harder to get a gun than a drivers license.
See, what I am hearing from those that are not state side is that they are not listening to the US-ers at all when we say...
It is NOT Federal.
Federal being the government that creates and governs the laws over all 50 states and the commonwealths and districts.
Then there are State laws, determined at the discretion of each individual state, commonwealth and district.
Then there are county/parrish and local laws.
See how this goes?
Most gun laws are under state jurisdiction.
This means that in this case, yes it was easy for Cho to get a gun. Should it have been, no? In Texas, it is also easy.
However, in the vast majority of states it is really freakin' hard to get a gun. Much, much harder than getting a driver's license, or a dog permit or anything else you want to equate it too.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by: Pele
See, what I am hearing from those that are not state side is that they are not listening to the US-ers at all when we say...
Written by: Pele
It is NOT Federal.
Most gun laws are under state jurisdiction.
Written by: Pele
the problem is not the gun, it was the boy.
Written by: Pele
they won't stop those who are determined...we have seen it
Written by: Pele
Gun laws only effect those who are law abiding and anyone who is planning to kill, well, they don't have that in their favor. Did the lack of stringent laws in Virginia make this easier for Cho? Yup. Would he have done it anyway? Absolutely.
Written by: Pele
And in this line, playing devils advocate, if he had been thwarted by legal means there is the very real possibility that he would have gotten a black market auto- or created a bomb. How do you know this way didn't save more lives? An auto or a bomb would've obviously done much more destruction.
Written by: Pele
We can speculate till the cows come home with blue faces but in the end, we don't know. We can only base our judgements on history and current facts, which those of us who live here are trying to tell you...it is not so black and white as slapping new laws down and the violent crimes will go down.
Written by: Pele
Sure maybe gun ones will, so the wife who shot her hubby in the back will instead stab him while he sleeps 20 times.
Written by: Pele
In Colorado, where Columbine happens, gun laws are extremely strict. It happened anyway.
Written by: Pele
astar2 also had a very good point in stating that if the gov't can't control drug trafficking and illegal weapons trade, how does anyone expect them to control guns?
Written by: Pele
Also OWD, I think you overlooked my point of stating that these people would kill anyway without guns. The entire point, people would still die. The number doesn't matter,
Written by: Pele
When 35 people got shot in Tasmania it never once crossed my mind that the entire country had issues or needed huge reform, just that this one person did.
Written by: Pele
This whole school thing, not isolated to the US.
Written by: Pele
The whole gun crime thing, not isolated to the US.
Written by: Pele
Just like the causes all together are not isolated to the US.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Written by: Lurch
Well said Pele. I agree a lot of what is going on in here seems like people just loving to pick on the US, and this is one more thing that they can point to and say 'look how ignorant you are' even when they don't know, or don't look at, all the facts.
Wielding a Wooden Spoon
Written by: Pyrolific
how exactly does it make a difference if your country uses state or federal laws to enforce?...I cant see how your point about state vs federal makes a valid contribution to this argument.
Written by: Pyrolific
will you at least admit that if the boy didn't have access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons he wouldnt have been able to kill nearly as many?
Written by: Pyrolific
you must also admit that its far easier to control objects (the guns) than all the social ills of the world and genetics that contributed to chos state of mind.
Written by: Pyrolific
You are refusing to accept that since restrictive gun laws have been put in place in similar countries eg GB and Oz, that there has been a reduction in gun crime.
Written by: Pyrolific
how? without automatic guns how would he have done it? You havent really got any applicable examples of how he might have done it - because in the US people use guns to kill each other in the vast majority (all?) of these cases. I think you cannot make such an assertion with such confidence. Historically you have no basis.
Written by: Pyrolific
you already have military weapons available in supermarkets (ok not in all states - but I have seen this - I have been to the US).
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
Written by: pounceWritten by: Pyrolific
how exactly does it make a difference if your country uses state or federal laws to enforce?...I cant see how your point about state vs federal makes a valid contribution to this argument.
The distinction is an important one. Perhaps one state has very strict gun laws while it's neighboring state does not. There would be nothing to stop a citizen from driving to the next state over and purchasing a gun from it's neighboring state.
Written by: pounceWritten by: Pyrolific
will you at least admit that if the boy didn't have access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons he wouldnt have been able to kill nearly as many?
I couldn't agree to that statement. He could have chosen to make a homemade bomb (just go on the internet and you find the directions *that* easy, it's rather sickening). And a bomb would have been largely successful at killing as many, if not more, people than by a firearm.
Written by: pounceWritten by: Pyrolific
you must also admit that its far easier to control objects (the guns) than all the social ills of the world and genetics that contributed to chos state of mind.
Perhaps, but I believe guns are the symptom, not the underlying problem. And quite honestly, personally I think we have no chance in the world of controlling guns.
Written by: pounceWritten by: Pyrolific
You are refusing to accept that since restrictive gun laws have been put in place in similar countries eg GB and Oz, that there has been a reduction in gun crime.
I don't think Pele is refusing that at all. In fact, I don't think anyone has disputed that, but in contrast, the belief is that violent crime increased following the ban on firearms. There is a distinction between the two types of crimes.
Written by: pounceWritten by: Pyrolific
how? without automatic guns how would he have done it? You havent really got any applicable examples of how he might have done it - because in the US people use guns to kill each other in the vast majority (all?) of these cases. I think you cannot make such an assertion with such confidence. Historically you have no basis.
Are you serious? If we just wanted to leave it simple, read my statement above about bombs. But there is a long history of plenty of ways people strike out, including bombings (Ted Kaczynski--the Unabomber, Timothy McVay--Oklahoma City bomber) but also the Anthrax mail attacks in 2001. Oh, and have we forgotten the Twin Tower and Pentagon attacks that same year? Guns are not the only means.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Written by: pounce
Are you serious? If we just wanted to leave it simple, read my statement above about bombs. But there is a long history of plenty of ways people strike out, including bombings (Ted Kaczynski--the Unabomber, Timothy McVay--Oklahoma City bomber) but also the Anthrax mail attacks in 2001. Oh, and have we forgotten the Twin Tower and Pentagon attacks that same year? Guns are not the only means.
Written by: pounce
I couldn't agree to that statement. He could have chosen to make a homemade bomb (just go on the internet and you find the directions *that* easy, it's rather sickening). And a bomb would have been largely successful at killing as many, if not more, people than by a firearm.
Written by: onewheeldave
Bombs are a possibility, but, in the US, guns are associated with heroism and bombs are associated with cowardice and terrorists.
In Chos twisted world, he was not out there killing vulnerable innocent children, he was a hero striking a blow for whatever agenda was in his confused mind.
His pre-shooting video was, in his eyes, much more powerful cos he was waving guns around and striking poses with them.
Bombs are for those with sheer practical intent to kill numbers for a twisted political cause- guns are for those who have some warped romantic vision of striding through the world in full view of the media, like a lone hero, killing at will and expressing to the world just how it has made them (cho) feel.
Much as he probably felt he despised US culture, the fact remains that Cho bought heavily into at least one aspect of it- the bizarre US association of firearms with coolness/heroism/empowerment.
IMO that is why these losers, in the vast majority of caese, choose guns- the fact that anyone (of legal age with no previous convictions) can walk into their local gunshop and come out with enough firepower to take out a school, IMO, really is making it pretty inevitable.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: pyrolific
will you at least admit that if the boy didn't have access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons he wouldnt have been able to kill nearly as many?
Written by:
thats obvious - suicide bombers blow themselves up all the time in Iraq - but strangely people in the US don't seem to. They seem to choose guns.
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how? without automatic guns how would he have done it? You havent really got any applicable examples of how he might have done it - because in the US people use guns to kill each other in the vast majority (all?) of these cases. I think you cannot make such an assertion with such confidence. Historically you have no basis.
Written by:
Can you at least accept that with really stringent laws (ie no-one in the US can own a semi or automatic gun) that obtaining such a weapon would actually be extremely difficult for someone like Cho? ... Also the Ammo wouldn't be for sale anywhere - so he'd have to build all his own ammo...sounding more and more unlikely.
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when automatic gun ownership is limited to SWAT teams and the military - 16 old kids will find it prohibitively difficult to find and use such weapons.
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do you have any illegal weapons in the US? I mean Ive seen websites of people building guns for 'sport' that could bring down a large plane? you already have military weapons available in supermarkets
Written by:
1500 deaths a year through accidental discharge! thats a tragedy.
Written by: biggins
i think its worth pointing out that from my point of view its not about picking on the US, its about trying to understand your points of views on gun ownership whilst trying to reconcile with my experiences and the societies i've been exposed to.
Written by: Pyrolific
nope - people in Iraq operating on their own in crowded markets carrying a LOT of explosives still dont seem to often be that effective. Also - you don't have historical precedent for this kind of behaviour.
Written by: onewheeldave
The twin towers were a well-planned attack by a terrorist group with large resources- a sick loner could not have done anything like that.
Written by: biggins
I, personally, genuinely cannot fathom aspects of the US (and increasingly the UK) psyche when it comes to guns. it makes no sense to me (well it does,kind of) and call me old fashioned but i feel that its a pretty sad state of affairs when ppl who work in a care profession feel they HAVE a to have a gun for protection. The REALLY REALLY sad thing is that as numerous ppl have pointed out this happens on a regular basis. it WILL happen again. THIS WILL CHANGE NOTHING! in this day and age life is getting increasingly cheaper and guns are a cop out, impersonal way of taking life. people will still be easily able to buy them. morons like charlton heston will stand up waves guns around (over my dead body etc etc).
Written by:
"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense."
- Winston Spencer Churchill
Written by:
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Written by:
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Written by:
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege."
-Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Written by:
"...to disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..."
-George Mason
Written by:
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state."
-Heinrich Himmler.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by:
US media have been quick to frame Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean-born man, as a mentally disturbed 'loner' whose erratic shooting spree ended in suicide.
Sociologists say isolation from his peers, easy access to guns and Hollywood images of gun-toting machismo were all key factors in Cho's transformation into a gruesome killer.
He wrote twisted, morbid plays in English class, set fire to a dormitory room and stalked college women, according to cobbled together accounts of his life from the few people who interacted with him at Virginia Tech University.
But the real shaping factors in the crime require a broader perspective on US culture, according to Joseph Gasper, a professor of sociology at Johns Hopkins University.
"I would urge people to avoid attributing the crime in Virginia to the mental illness of an individual and focus on the myriad of social factors that would play a role in this sort of violent crime," Mr Gasper said.
He pointed to factors such as social marginalisation, violence in the media, masculinity issues and easy access to guns as among the key factors that need to be examined.
"It's very clear that in a lot of American movies and TV there is a link between manhood and violence, telling young men who are having social problems that, 'Hey, take a gun and kill people,' (and they) can be very empowered," Mr Gasper said.
He said those messages take root in fragile minds but also find their way into culture and society.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by:
I went into a WalMart (or KMart?) and there was what looked like the guns SWAT teams use for sale. I think it was in Nevada.
Written by:
Lurch, ever been to India? Tell you that much: It's peaceful. Dunno how much travelling outside the US you have done on your side, but as I said before: the world OUTSIDE the US is not halfway as violent and also not as Anti-American, as the US media is trying to put it.
Written by:Those "details" are important, using incorrect terminology on your (the collective you) part does nothing but show ignorance. You are using terms incorrectly pulled from movies and tv and have no specific knowledge of the topic other than seeing "SWAT team guns in wal-mart." By using the wrong terms many people have said things that are just plain factually wrong. While it may not degrade the concept very much, it certainly makes you look a fool.
And you can go ahead to focus on details like semi vs. automatic.
Written by:
Clearly, you choose to ignore the pattern. Every time there is a disaster like this there is also a chance for change. Yet, the problems associated with the American gun culture get swept under the carpet, until the next time.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by: LurchWritten by: stone
Clearly, you choose to ignore the pattern. Every time there is a disaster like this there is also a chance for change. Yet, the problems associated with the American gun culture get swept under the carpet, until the next time.
Wait, are you saying that Hollywood and the media cause violence? Or that guns in general cause violence?
Written by: Lurch
As for this being in the US. 17 killed in a German school in 2002, 8 shot by a psychiatric patient in France. 14 killed with a hand grenade and gun in Switzerland (I can't think of any killings involving a hand grenade in the states). 7 killed in a bank robbery in Hungary.
"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"
*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"
*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*
Written by: Lurch
Why is Charlton Heston a moron again? Because he fights for what he believes in?
Written by:
You're right, it IS sad when someone needs or wants to carry a gun because of their career.
Written by:
That is because there are violent people around. If they want, or need, a gun for self defense, what possible right, or logic, do you have to tell them NO to that?
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By 'this' did you mean using a weapon in self defense? or school killings?
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Someone threw out an Orwell quotation, and while I don't usually post historical quotes I think it might be something that could be useful to both discuss, and help people understand.
Written by: LurchWritten by: ]"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense."
Winston Spencer Churchill[/quoteWritten by:
So far, noone has given me a good reason why *I* should not be allowed to own a gun.Written by: ]"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
- Mahatma Gandhi[/quoteWritten by: ]"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke [/quoteWritten by: ]"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege."
-Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878 [/quoteWritten by: ]"...to disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..."-George Mason[/quoteWritten by: ]"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state." -Heinrich Himmler. [/quote
maybe i'm reading these wrong but to me all these quotes seem to be saying that in order for a populace to be empowered they have to be armed. This i do not agree with. Empowerment of a peoples can come from many other places and historically great change has been brought about in many different countries through strong leadership and a willingness to change.
gaaahh.....i've been sucked in.....waaaa.......a whole hour writing this reply!!!! *shakes fist*Wielding a Wooden Spoon
Wielding a Wooden Spoon
Written by:
Wait, are you saying that Hollywood and the media cause violence? Or that guns in general cause violence? What attitude glorifies guns Stone?
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NO ONE is yet to answer why I should not be allowed to own a gun.
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Lurch, I agree there are plenty of people who live in places where having a gun is a necessity. Where it’s a part of their life, and livelihood. I grew up on a farm, and as a kid I went up the bush and hunted. I also kept a single barrel shot gun under my bed for many years before I gave it up.
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What makes me so dangerous?
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Lurch, why are Americans so paranoid? Paranoia being an excessive anxiety or fear concerning one's own well-being which is considered irrational and excessive, perhaps to the point of being a psychosis.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Lurch
but yet again no one wants to answer the question as to why STABLE law abiding citizens should be prohibited from having them if they choose to?
Wielding a Wooden Spoon