• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Chat > Uk :HOPpers, fed up with benefits cheats

Login/Join to Participate

Posted:We all know there are benefits thieves around however, what you may not know is that should there be suspicion placed on them the onus is on the government to prove that they are fraudsters

I don't know about you but seeing as we are supporting these people then surely the least we can ask is that if suspicion is placed on them they can be the ones to prove that they are not scroungers.

Too often i have heard about single parents with 6 kids who's father lives at the same address.

If you live in the uk then please sign my petition to change the legislation to get them to prove that they do need the help, rather than the government having to prove that they are defrauding the country.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/provebenefit/


Delete Topic

jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'm on benefits, and my god do they need proof!

I'm on Disability Living Allowance for depression and anxiety and they need alot of evidence. It's hard for people to get anywhere.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Delete

Posted:See i have absolutely no problem with those that are in true need.

This particular petition is not for any change to getting onto the system in any way.

Living in Glasgow i do however see a lot of cheats out and about. Plus i speak to several people taht work in the benefits system, chasing up these possible fraudsters, several times i've been told of stories like the one below

there was a woman applying for lone parent support for 6 kids, all the kids had the same surname, that of the father, who was registered at the same address. When the person was sent to check on the family even though the father was the one who answered the door, there was no apparent evidence that he was living with them so they continued to get the benefits despite the records showing this.

It is this that i am petitioning to stop


Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I don't understand what your petition then is? You said up above it was to make people prove they need benefits...and that would be changing how people get onto the system? confused

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Posted:Nope, the petition is for when suspicion is placed on someone already recieveing benefits, e.g. it appears that a supposedly unemployed person is working for cash, or a 'single' mum who's kids fathers are living at the same address, or a wheelchair-bound person observed up cleaning their gutters.

It is these people that would be required to show that they do deserve the benefits that they recieve. Basically to make it easier to stop the fraudsters.


Delete

Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted: Written by: furbs


should there be suspicion placed on them the onus is on the government to prove that they are fraudsters




exsqueeze me? personally i prefer the 'innocent till proven guilty' thing. the government should have to prove they are fraudsters? that sounds fair enough to me... Id rather not be locked up for any crime and told i need to prove my innocence.

 Written by:

Too often i have heard about single parents with 6 kids who's father lives at the same address.

yes, but you only here about those worst cases where the persons are completely abusing the system. if you start a witchhunt when everyone is under suspicion, that will also affect those who genuinely needs welfare to live.

hangon - i was under the impression people had to prove that they needed welfare in the first place to get it. ive heard enough horror stories of people trying to shovel their way through the beaurocracy when they are really desperate.
i personally despise welfare cheats - and would have no problem dobbing someone is who was exploiting the system to a ridiculous extent by claiming for non-existant children etc... however dont like this concept of having to prove your innocence - which sets a dangerous precidence.

could you possibly clarify your position a bit further?


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

Delete

Posted:No problem Dentrassi,

Basically i want it to be easier to stop these cheats from getting their hand on the money.

Essentially what i want is that in cases of extreme suspicion (ie not 1 random call but where there are extreme discrepancies in the situation) that the persons receiving them is required to prove that they are deserving of the moneys. I'm not looking to hinder those real claimants, in fact by increasing the chance of catching and convicting these fraudsters they might be discouraged hence more time can be devoted to each case, getting them processing and on the benefits they deserve quicker, i would hope.

In terms of innocent till proven guilty there is precedence in england and wales in cases of rape, where it is admitted that intercourse took place it is the mans responsibility to prove the woman was in a sound mind to give consent. This was because only 5% of rape cases were resulting in a conviction, (95% of these cases cant be crying wolf)


Delete

Posted:Ouch, what a jump there. From suspected welfare cheats to rapists.

Delete

Posted:it was just to draw a comparison that it has been used already where they have had problems with law-breakers and difficulty in conviction.

I'm a guy btw so if anything the rape set-up for me is actually a bad thing (was i to ever end in that situation, hopefully not)


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:There are ppl who find ways to exploit the social system and whilst others - in need - don't get assistance, they are just taking what is not theirs.

Same problem in Germany. But I'm not sure about the petition though, I think it's up to the government to doublecheck and verify.

This is a soapbox because generally ppl, who are living on social welfare often are considered as ticks of society.

The gap whidens by media reports and focussing on those who abuse the system, which - at the same time - sometimes sheds a very bad light on ALL.

I'm not sure whether I should go into the rape-aspect (BTDT - got spanked), but I reckon that the obligation to PROOVE consent umm Maybe I don't get the true meaning behind it... *doesn't wish to continue on the particular subject as it's offtopic*


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: furbs



We all know there are benefits thieves ..............are defrauding the country.



http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/provebenefit/







IMO, the main people who suffer from 'tightening up' the benefits system, are those with legitimate claims.



Claiming benefits is already a minefield and I've known several people who, when temporarily unemployed through no fault of their own and having paid taxes for years; have been unable to claim anything.



The people you're trying to target, in contrast, know the system backwards and can work it however much it's tightened up.



The way the benefits system treats legitimate claiments is already disgraceful- I totally disagree with your petition and your apparent prejudice towards those who, for whatever reason, have to suffer the ineptitudes of the UK 'benefits' system.



The main issues that need addressing where benefits are concerned, IMO, are to do with the benefits system itself, which is unprofesional, unnacountable and inept- I suspect if those issues were addressed, there would be a corresponding drop in benefit fraud.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:was about to meantion your name in the "missing-thread", OWD... can I give you a buzz whenever I have to say something about a topic and have you word it for me? hug

with only a few exceptions - apparantly... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: linked petition

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Alter the benefits system, to require the claimant to prove this situation. More details...

This petition is to request that should suspicion be placed on a claimant, they are the ones the onus is on to prove otherwise, e.g. single mother has 3 kids all with the same father, they must show bill to indicate fathers residence is other than that stated for the mother. Should suspicion be placed for incapacity benefits then a government approved doctor must perform the examination to ensure eligabilty

Submitted by Andrew Rae Deadline to sign up by: 16 April 2008 Signatures: 7



i dont think this really has enough grounds or reasoning to be a legitimate argument. if you want a random internet petition signed at least show some statistics that indicate your proposal would be of benefit to the community.

i'm not sure about the UK system, but i know for damn sure the australian system (centrelink) already makes its customers feel like criminals and is a complete shambles. especially in my case where THEY lost my paperwork and then expected ME to fill it out all over again. as a result my payments started about three weeks later than they should have, luckily i had some savings, otherwise i mightn't have been eating for a month. how about you make a petition demanding the government fix its own system before you start accusing innocent people being fraudulent criminals?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Delete

Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:The real issue here is about data: the government holds enough information about UK citizens across its agencies to be able to manage benefit and tax credit fraud before even needing to source it externally, but it can't even use it effectively enough to manage those who have proved they are entitled to it.

There is already an great onus placed upon the claimant: to increase it, especially as that proof often costs 10 per request, would be even more costly in terms of unnecessary financial burden, exacerbation of illness and social hardship in general than anyone genuinely in need of benefit can afford.

I'd say that cost would be compounded further by what would be the inevitable resulting criminal prosecution, but to change the law concerning the burden of proof concerning benefit fraud would involve changing it throughout the legal system, which thankfully won't happen as a result of a petition created by someone whose opinion is mainly based on hearsay.

Needless to say, I won't be signing it smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:rolleyes TROLL angry

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:first, just because only 5% were convicted doesn't mean that 95% were crying wolf...it is a difficult crime to prosecute, especially because many wait until they have washed the evidence away, date rapes are also difficult to prove
second, maybe the father is living with them but it doesn't mean that he is contributing to the welfare of the children. he may be a druggie or something like that. they should probably be getting benefits under a different title but...
third, yes, there are a lot of cheats, in milwaukee, it seems like everyone is on socialsecurity (aka uk disabilty) for insanity or mental illness, but those who do need it also have a difficult time to get it or get any care. they are treated like criminals
ooooooh i got you know ravehead
d'oh ubbrollsmile


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

steaks
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

steaks

former manc tour guide
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1909
Posted:I agree with everything OneWheelDave said.
Having spent the best part of 18 months stuck in the british 'benefits' system. I can whole-heatedly say the system itself has a lot of issues it needs to address before it can consider altering the way it deals with possible frauds.


Owned by the lovely SNOOPoi
Owner of Clarence_Quack

Delete

Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


yes, there are a lot of cheats, in milwaukee, it seems like everyone is on social security (aka uk disability) for insanity or mental illness, but those who do need it also have a difficult time to get it or get any care. they are treated like criminals



mental ilness is a tough one because there is no visible ailment and as a result many people are skeptical of its existence or not.

i have a funny story from one of my lectures who, when changing doctor, had to get a prescription for (i believe) her mental problem and was met with suspicion from the doctor. that is until he asked "what do you do for a living" and she replied "i lecture at the university on the topic of sociological aspects of Healthcare" ubblol


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:ubblol

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Posted:I would hope that the troll comment wasn't directed at me. I did not post this to cause dissent and arguments among the board members.

I speak to someone that works for the benefits system, it is them that gives me these stories. the fact is that unlike a normal petition, these go directly to the cabinet when the petition is complete (assuming that an appropriate proportion of the uk population has signed the petition)

As I have said i have no wish to prevent those that are genuine claimants, again as i have stated that it is where there are extreme discrepancies and suspicion that they would be required to prove that they are deserving.

If you feel that my petition is not appropriate i respect that, and (if you are a uk citizen) I invite you to create your own petition.


Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:footinmouth never mind...

I believe that you have had the best intentions, it's just that other ppl have differing opinions on the subject. Hope you don't mind, Furbs hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:ye it was aimed at you furbs, my personal experience of the DWP is that they are there to do a job and do not care about the individual.

imagine how you would feel day in day out watching floods of people coming in to sign on and watching a percente of your monthly earnings going towards peoples heroin/methadone/crack or meth addictions.....................it would make even me sick to see this happen.

i myself am out of work at the moment and reliant on JSA.....................am i a benefits thief as you put it?

this is a dodgey subject at the best of times and you need to be more carefull when you rant off in martian about people on the dole.

even when i've had tempory jobs,the DWP tryed to put me on the tax credits scheme......SOD THAT!!!!

once your in that part of the system there is no turning back, and what for.......................45 extra bi-weekly........... not worth it in my situation as i am in and out of work all the time.

your generalisation that all people on the dole are "theves" is wrong and offencive, and smacks of the tory government, "thatchers britain"


Delete

Posted:I won't be signing your petition....

Simply because I think the goverment should have to prove with out doubt that the person is commiting benifit fraud. Its already so hard to prove you need your benifits..and the benfits you then get are not enough. 45 a week is not enough for someone to live on..its just not...so as much as doing a couple of sly hours cash in hand is technacally benifit fraud whilst recieving job seekers...in reality....thats just people trying to survive.

I recently got off job seekers..but whislt I was on it..i was appaled by how i was treated at job centres..you treated like work shy scum...i was played around....i was told to come in on days when i didnt need to..i was told to call numbers that were so busy i couldnt get through for days........but the way i saw it....i didn't have a job and i was not wasteing my life and destroying my morals doing telesales or working in maccie ds like the job centre expected me to...eventually i found a job that whilst was terrible i settled for untill i could find something better...
not everyone on the dole is a theif most are just trying to get by....
the people you should be angry at is not the people scamming the system its the government for making it so they feel that it is nesscary for them to do that....


Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: furbs


I would hope that the troll comment wasn't directed at me. I did not post this to cause dissent and arguments among the board members.




I think you'll find it was smile

Probably based on the fact that, at the time of posting, you had five posts on this board.

Your fifth post , whilst maybe not intending to cause dissent and agro amongst board members, is clearly designed to stir up even more prejudice and hostility to the unemployed community of the UK.

They've got it hard emough already and do not need yet more hostility and harrasment from inept governmental departments.

If you are, as you claim, not wishing to harrass genuine claiments, then I'd suggest ending your efforts to combat fraudsters, cos the fraudsters will not be hindered by your proposed measures- the genuine claiments will be the ones to suffer (even more than they currently are).

IMO, the true cause of benefit fraud lies within the benefit system itself- its ineptness, lack of accountability, unfairness and its innate assumption that all claimers are dishonest scum.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Posted:Firstly an apology, to all of those on the board that i may have offended, it was never intended.



I posted this to make people aware of my petition, there was no (intended) malice behind my post.



I will state that though this is only my 5th post i've been registered for over half a year. I've only just started to become active on the board, and i hope that this thread will not tarnish peoples opinion of me (I'm a nice guy really!)



Also i would hope that my hanging around to discuss the issue would further that I was not aiming to cause hassle amoungst the various boardies.



I will conceed that perhaps my view was particularly onesided. Im sorry to hear of the problems that the various members have encountered with the benefits system.



Whilst I still believe that reform of the benefits system is needed, especially to combat fraudsters, other issues also require this reform, including streamlining and improvement of the claims process.



I will conclude by stating that i do not believe that everyone on the dole is a thief. I recognise that there are people out there that do need this support and I do not begrudge these people (e.g. the 3 people that are on long term sick leave from my work). However I do see people around about that are just taking the piss, and these people annoy me especially when they have done nothing yet i get a letter telling me that if i want to be able to claim benefits i need to pay the government a wad of cash on top of the amount that has been deducted from my wages.

EDITED_BY: furbs (1176853933)


Delete

PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4993
Posted:This should be moved to discussions!

And I for one should refrain from posting my opinions! in hope not to cause warfare. smile


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

Delete

Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:I was also on the dole for a long time and the amount of proof that I had to hand in was absolutely absurd only to be told that I couldn't because I hadn't paid enough NI contributions so I can see furb's point. I worked for over two years part time and almost a year full time but because I was a student while I worked part time. I was only unemployed for a few months and yet was told that I had not been unemployed for long enough the first time I attempted to claim and that I hadn't paid enough NI the second.

Yes, the system does need reformed but If this current, or next, UK government does it then I'll eat my own left arm. Its far cheaper for the government to pay fraudulent benefit and later attempt to reclaim it.

BTW, furbs is an idiot but he is a nice guy, mind you I say that about most people.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

Delete

shoshanah
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

shoshanah

enthusiast
Location: london

Total posts: 232
Posted:I think your petition has a few floors that you might want to look at

1. My babys father has no permanent address and moves around all the time mostly staying with friends and family and that means no bills in his name.

2. You are putting it all in the hands of the father. If he decides to run off and not provide a bill showing his new address then the mother and children will then not be able to survive. And how would that mother be able to prove that the father has disappeared? As she would be the one that has to some how prove that the father is now absent.

3. Im sure you already need the help of a Dr to prove that you are incapable of working other wise wouldnt everyone claim that they were ill. Also they do check up on you to see if you are still incapable of work.

Im sorry but your partitions pointless and if anything will only make life harder for those that already struggle. I understand the anger felt towards those that really take the piss and Im not talking about the small minor offences that if chased up would be a waste of the governments money. Yet I think you have not put much thought in to what you pacifically want the government to do about it.


life is what you make it and what you want it to be

Delete

TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:I've had issues with the benefit system... there's a thread in the discussion forum which got a little heated ubblol and I've written up a blog on it on my website.

What troubles me is when the people who really need help don't get it and get treated like scum, and then there's the ones who pull "the scam" - that is, managing to afford a car, frequent nights out, brand new clothes, widescreen TV's, DVD players, etc, when neither works, and they're popping out the babies so they'll get more money. um, birth control! hello?!

I think recall my Mum telling me years ago that someone had asked her for the symptoms of her angina so they could fake going on the sick! I mean, honestly!

Hell, I used to know an old lady who used to live across the street hobble slowly in pain as she passed our house to get to her own. Then, as soon as the Ice cream van pulled up, she'd actually beat us kids to it as we ran to it ourselves! Those Ice cream oysters must have some kind of miracle temporary youth potion in it ubblol

Best thing to do? Investigate your suspicions. Keep a diary. Go covert on their A**. If things aren't right, report them. Simple.

P.S. I do not suggest breaking into their house and planting listening devices and miniture cameras hidden in plant pots. Because that would be illegal... smile


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

Delete