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Posted:This is something that I've been thinking about for a while. It's a bit complicated and there are lots of hot topics associated with my main point so I'll try to boil my main point down to one, hopefully clearly worded paragraph:
I find it counterintuitive that there appears to be more political correctness and sensitivity associated with Americans in some areas when examining parallel areas of US and UK society.
The US has this wonderful reputation of doing whatever it want and being generally horrible about how they go about doing it. Much of this reputation is rooted in or stems from fact and history. Yet, I am sometimes startled by some blatantly insensitive things I've seen in the UK that would NEVER be said/done by the parallel organization/group in the US.
Most of these things have to do with ethnic and racial sensitivities. I heard some things on Radio4 that made my jaw drop a few weeks ago. The topics were valid but the delivery was so insensitive. [One example I can remember was the commentators brainstorming as to why blacks are naturally more violent.] There are ways that topic can be addressed more appropriately but the language that the radio commentators used was shocking to an American like myself. I would NEVER expect to hear that from a parallel radio show in the US. The same with sitcoms, internet videos, newspaper articles. I also find it apparent in liberal communities that I hang out with in both countries. If you compare what I'd equate to be parallel communities I just don't see a sensitivity that I'm used to here in the US.
Obviously, if you compare apples and oranges, you can find a difference. I'd expect the Alabama chapter of the KKK to be less sensitive than the Sheffield Knitting Society. I'd also expect some American Shock Jock to be less sensitive than Radio4.
I'm not necessarily judging it. It just surprises me in light of the fact that the US is generally known for it's global insensitivity.
I have some theories about it but maybe I'll wait for some responses first.
[Disclaimer because this is the internet: I picked the US and UK because they are the two cultures I am most familiar with. I am only speaking from my own personal, unscientific observations and isolated incidents. I would be happy to hear of other experiences that would discredit my extrapolations. I consider the UK my second home and love many things about it. I thoroughly enjoy and support Britain, the British, and your mom.]
I find it counterintuitive that there appears to be more political correctness and sensitivity associated with Americans in some areas when examining parallel areas of US and UK society.
The US has this wonderful reputation of doing whatever it want and being generally horrible about how they go about doing it. Much of this reputation is rooted in or stems from fact and history. Yet, I am sometimes startled by some blatantly insensitive things I've seen in the UK that would NEVER be said/done by the parallel organization/group in the US.
Most of these things have to do with ethnic and racial sensitivities. I heard some things on Radio4 that made my jaw drop a few weeks ago. The topics were valid but the delivery was so insensitive. [One example I can remember was the commentators brainstorming as to why blacks are naturally more violent.] There are ways that topic can be addressed more appropriately but the language that the radio commentators used was shocking to an American like myself. I would NEVER expect to hear that from a parallel radio show in the US. The same with sitcoms, internet videos, newspaper articles. I also find it apparent in liberal communities that I hang out with in both countries. If you compare what I'd equate to be parallel communities I just don't see a sensitivity that I'm used to here in the US.
Obviously, if you compare apples and oranges, you can find a difference. I'd expect the Alabama chapter of the KKK to be less sensitive than the Sheffield Knitting Society. I'd also expect some American Shock Jock to be less sensitive than Radio4.
I'm not necessarily judging it. It just surprises me in light of the fact that the US is generally known for it's global insensitivity.
I have some theories about it but maybe I'll wait for some responses first.
[Disclaimer because this is the internet: I picked the US and UK because they are the two cultures I am most familiar with. I am only speaking from my own personal, unscientific observations and isolated incidents. I would be happy to hear of other experiences that would discredit my extrapolations. I consider the UK my second home and love many things about it. I thoroughly enjoy and support Britain, the British, and your mom.]
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003
![KaelGotRice]()
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Total posts: 1584
GOLD Member since Jul 2003
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Total posts: 1584
Posted:America may be known for it's global insensitivity now, but so were the Brits and other European powers when they colonized Africa, the Americas, and Asia 
They've had many more years of institutionalized hate and racism practice.
Granted, while you have neo-nazis in Europe, the whole white power movement seems to be based in the American South. I've seen worldwide websites/servers/forums for these things based in Alabama and neighboring states.
General rule is, people are farking stupid everywhere.
They've had many more years of institutionalized hate and racism practice.
Granted, while you have neo-nazis in Europe, the whole white power movement seems to be based in the American South. I've seen worldwide websites/servers/forums for these things based in Alabama and neighboring states.
General rule is, people are farking stupid everywhere.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />
Posted:I guess in some ways that's why Americans don't get our British Humour! and the same can go for our political correctness.
Like us British can't understand how many idiotic Americans voted for Bush and let him create havoc the world over.
hugs to you my friend.
Oh and leave those Sheffielder's alone... they like to knit!
Like us British can't understand how many idiotic Americans voted for Bush and let him create havoc the world over.
hugs to you my friend.
Oh and leave those Sheffielder's alone... they like to knit!
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
Posted: Written by: KaelGotRice
America may be known for it's global insensitivity now, but so were the Brits and other European powers when they colonized Africa, the Americas, and Asia
They've had many more years of institutionalized hate and racism practice.
Granted, while you have neo-nazis in Europe, the whole white power movement seems to be based in the American South. I've seen worldwide websites/servers/forums for these things based in Alabama and neighboring states.
General rule is, people are farking stupid everywhere.
You would be surprised where white power movements are .. i know of many in the UK and i could tell you how false they are too.
America may be known for it's global insensitivity now, but so were the Brits and other European powers when they colonized Africa, the Americas, and Asia
They've had many more years of institutionalized hate and racism practice.
Granted, while you have neo-nazis in Europe, the whole white power movement seems to be based in the American South. I've seen worldwide websites/servers/forums for these things based in Alabama and neighboring states.
General rule is, people are farking stupid everywhere.
You would be surprised where white power movements are .. i know of many in the UK and i could tell you how false they are too.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003
![KaelGotRice]()
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Total posts: 1584
GOLD Member since Jul 2003
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I'm actually not surprised by white power movements existing there. For example when I lived in The Hague, Netherlands when I was a child, our family faced small amounts of racism against asians - In Holland, of all places.
But what I'm saying is that through the KKK, many Americans have indoctrinated themselves in a whole culture of hate and racism. I'm sure that there's European equivalents to it as well.
But what I'm saying is that through the KKK, many Americans have indoctrinated themselves in a whole culture of hate and racism. I'm sure that there's European equivalents to it as well.
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />
Posted:Hell yeah your right there!.
It's difficult some times how Italians react to me because I'm English.
Speaking of governments and politics etcetera ... I'd like to through in Italy there too!.... they are equally as bad, and as for being racist!... damn they are.
I've pretty much grown up around ethnic communities and religious studies at school to have learnt what's right and what's wrong and how to air my opinions.
I work with a guy from Pakistan, he's a nice chap, 26 years old, just got married back in Pakistan, left his new wife there because they are waiting for her visa, whilst he has returned here to Italy for work.
Okay so, he has a visa (some don't), he's punctual, he wants to work and doesn't stop all day other than for lunch, his work is not brilliant and that's where every one starts bitching about him, calling him all of the names under the sun and behind his back of course, another reason why they pick on him is because he has been here longer than me and he doesn't understand any Italian, through fault of living with other Pakistani people here, our job is solemn so he's doesn't get much chance to speak to any one and learn. Where as every one that i work with are fantastic guys, they are still bigoted in regards to other ethnics, as other ethnics are the ones that sell the fake D&G on the seafront.. the people with out visa's or documents that the government pay money for from the tax payer. It is those that make it harder for the ones that want to live and work legally here... and maybe if that problem was cleared up then Italians would be less bigoted.
I think that it is what peoples instant expectations are of people and what is in fact real life situations when affronted with them, they then judge all by that one situation. Which is a shame... Think and discuss, not every one and every thing is the same.
Also without actually living in a country and fully understanding how things work, history etcetera i find it hard to make a response or opinion to some thing.
It's difficult some times how Italians react to me because I'm English.
Speaking of governments and politics etcetera ... I'd like to through in Italy there too!.... they are equally as bad, and as for being racist!... damn they are.
I've pretty much grown up around ethnic communities and religious studies at school to have learnt what's right and what's wrong and how to air my opinions.
I work with a guy from Pakistan, he's a nice chap, 26 years old, just got married back in Pakistan, left his new wife there because they are waiting for her visa, whilst he has returned here to Italy for work.
Okay so, he has a visa (some don't), he's punctual, he wants to work and doesn't stop all day other than for lunch, his work is not brilliant and that's where every one starts bitching about him, calling him all of the names under the sun and behind his back of course, another reason why they pick on him is because he has been here longer than me and he doesn't understand any Italian, through fault of living with other Pakistani people here, our job is solemn so he's doesn't get much chance to speak to any one and learn. Where as every one that i work with are fantastic guys, they are still bigoted in regards to other ethnics, as other ethnics are the ones that sell the fake D&G on the seafront.. the people with out visa's or documents that the government pay money for from the tax payer. It is those that make it harder for the ones that want to live and work legally here... and maybe if that problem was cleared up then Italians would be less bigoted.
I think that it is what peoples instant expectations are of people and what is in fact real life situations when affronted with them, they then judge all by that one situation. Which is a shame... Think and discuss, not every one and every thing is the same.
Also without actually living in a country and fully understanding how things work, history etcetera i find it hard to make a response or opinion to some thing.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
Posted:I had a feeling this would be derailed before it even started.
Carry on with your conversation but you guys understand my initial point right?
Why ISN'T there more consistent political sensitivity in a country like the UK a country who is leaps and bounds ahead of the US in such areas as environmental awareness and human rights and expression?
Again, focusing on an apples to apples comparison of communities.
[Maybe this will be another example of those not as familiar with both communities not really understanding my point.]
Carry on with your conversation but you guys understand my initial point right?
Why ISN'T there more consistent political sensitivity in a country like the UK a country who is leaps and bounds ahead of the US in such areas as environmental awareness and human rights and expression?
Again, focusing on an apples to apples comparison of communities.
[Maybe this will be another example of those not as familiar with both communities not really understanding my point.]
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:Your first point was clearly understood NYC.
Was just making second observations that's all.
NYC i think that it depends on your up bringing, schooling, influences and your surroundings.. in fact too many factors play part in learning and differentiating factors such as environmental issues, it's how you are educated about them, how the matters are put too you, and most of all if you give a damn about them.
Like I said above, if your not born and raised in a country you might not understand some thing that you hear and think that it's not politically correct or so on but to us it maybe.
If that makes any sense to you whatsoever.
Was just making second observations that's all.
NYC i think that it depends on your up bringing, schooling, influences and your surroundings.. in fact too many factors play part in learning and differentiating factors such as environmental issues, it's how you are educated about them, how the matters are put too you, and most of all if you give a damn about them.
Like I said above, if your not born and raised in a country you might not understand some thing that you hear and think that it's not politically correct or so on but to us it maybe.
If that makes any sense to you whatsoever.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
Posted:I've just had dinner with my mother and grandparents, during the course of which they managed to rant against Jewish people, single mothers, homosexuals (especially those who have children), Pakistanis and - suprisingly - Christians.
The only group who came off well in the conversation were Muslims, though I think the only thing they had going for them in the eyes of the assembled company was dressing modestly.
I was stunned and shocked by the tirade of racism and bigotry from three people who I thought I knew better. I certainly expected better from them. But it does make me wonder if the only reason I didn't know better was a good dose of the fabled British reserve preventing most controversial things from coming up in polite conversation.
I also think NYC is spoilt for sensitive, politically correct Americans by being in the Republic of New York City. It's not exactly representative now is it? You'd have loved Radio 4 today - The Now Show had a song that was rude about almost every country in Europe and Israel too! It was suggested as our next entry for the Eurovision Song Contest 
The only group who came off well in the conversation were Muslims, though I think the only thing they had going for them in the eyes of the assembled company was dressing modestly.
I was stunned and shocked by the tirade of racism and bigotry from three people who I thought I knew better. I certainly expected better from them. But it does make me wonder if the only reason I didn't know better was a good dose of the fabled British reserve preventing most controversial things from coming up in polite conversation.
I also think NYC is spoilt for sensitive, politically correct Americans by being in the Republic of New York City.
It's not exactly representative now is it? You'd have loved Radio 4 today - The Now Show had a song that was rude about almost every country in Europe and Israel too! It was suggested as our next entry for the Eurovision Song Contest Delete
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Wow, looks like racism is 'in' again. I might have to stop doing it against americans now, if all the plebs are doing it too.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Posted:you calling my granny a pleb moppet?
:grr:
NYC I think maybe you have a point you didn't know you were making with suggesting that the UK is ahead fo the US in terms of expression, amongst other things. I think (in a broad generalising sort of way) that attitudes are probably very comparable across the two countries, but whilst US public figures are anxious about how they put things, their UK counterparts are less concerned that they will be taken the wrong way and just speak plainly (and to your ears, insensitively).
I particularly liked the interview with a BBC reporter and an American discussing the moratorium on the "N word" in New York. His (US) consternation at her (UK) unabashed used of the word was your point in case as it were
:grr:
NYC I think maybe you have a point you didn't know you were making with suggesting that the UK is ahead fo the US in terms of expression, amongst other things. I think (in a broad generalising sort of way) that attitudes are probably very comparable across the two countries, but whilst US public figures are anxious about how they put things, their UK counterparts are less concerned that they will be taken the wrong way and just speak plainly (and to your ears, insensitively).
I particularly liked the interview with a BBC reporter and an American discussing the moratorium on the "N word" in New York. His (US) consternation at her (UK) unabashed used of the word was your point in case as it were
Delete
Posted: Written by: Dr_Molly
but whilst US public figures are anxious about how they put things, their UK counterparts are less concerned that they will be taken the wrong way and just speak plainly (and to your ears, insensitively).
Yup, perhaps the fact that what I see as "racial insensitivity" you're referring to as "just speaking plainly" is my point.
If we limit ourselves to just the liberal centers I hang out with (OK, My friends)... I have experienced many more instances of Brits making generalizations and insensitive comments.
Strange since if I walk in with a box of Nestle cereal I'll get a lecture on ethics and responsibility. Yet the same folks will have no qualms about publicly stereotyping the French for example. And the funny thing is I know that every Brit on here just made a mental joke about the French. (OK, maybe not. But a few did. )
And I can't agree that speaking plainly is "ahead" of cultural sensitivity... which I find confusing because the UK is generally ........
but whilst US public figures are anxious about how they put things, their UK counterparts are less concerned that they will be taken the wrong way and just speak plainly (and to your ears, insensitively).
Yup, perhaps the fact that what I see as "racial insensitivity" you're referring to as "just speaking plainly" is my point.
If we limit ourselves to just the liberal centers I hang out with (OK, My friends)... I have experienced many more instances of Brits making generalizations and insensitive comments.
Strange since if I walk in with a box of Nestle cereal I'll get a lecture on ethics and responsibility. Yet the same folks will have no qualms about publicly stereotyping the French for example. And the funny thing is I know that every Brit on here just made a mental joke about the French. (OK, maybe not. But a few did.
)And I can't agree that speaking plainly is "ahead" of cultural sensitivity... which I find confusing because the UK is generally ........
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005
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Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...
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Total posts: 1228
Posted:I think a lot of the difference between the UK and US comes down to national guilt. The US has a history where black people were exploited as slaves, and many of the people there are these slaves descendants, whereas in the UK people of different races are immigrants (although there was some slavery by British colonialists it was not visible within the country).
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
In the US, black, and asian peoples contributed hugely to the infrastucture and development of the country, and so they and their descandants have (more than) earned a right to the benefits of living there.
Here in the UK the advancement of the political systems and industrial revolution occured so long ago that many are not fully aware of the work it took to advance the country, and take it for granted.
The British empire did not do any favours for a lot of countries it aimed to 'bring forward' as the peoples of those countries saw the colonialists as demi-gods with all their technology, and without an education could not understand how things like the banking system work. Even today those people look to caucasian people for handouts (their governments being so corrupt as to make the robber barons of the UK's past look like amateurs), instead of feeling obliged to do something for themselves about developing their own countries (voting, campaigning etc.).
A lot of it comes down to environment. The UK is an island, and has had considerable mineral wealth in the past. For this reason it would need defending from constant attacks from the mainland. To do this we had to develop better weapons, defensive structures, ships and harbours. To do all this we also needed better organisational systems and politics, as civil engineering requires better organisation of people. Over time this resulted us in having a superior navy to both the French and Spanish. Also the climate would be a factor. The cold requires better tools to build shelter, and to make clothing.
Compare this to somewhere like Kenya, where for some the threats to your livelihood come more from large wild animals. The Masaii still herd cattle and have to defend them from animals like lions, and they still do it with spears.
The people from Africa are considered more brutal by some, but maybe that's because of the way that wars are fought there (like in Somalia). It's considered far more brutal to hack an animal to death than to shoot it from hundreds of meters away with a rifle, but that is something that is much closer in these peoples past (or even present) than it is here. Living like this would desensitise people to that 'brutality'.
The question of a peoples being any more brutal is not genetic, it is cultural. Any person given a western upbringing and education will have a very different attitude to life than someone who has had to grow up as a herdsman on the African savannah. Individuals have the potential to develop a lot quicker than cultures, and the difference in advancement of cultures on this planet is at the level of several hundred years in places.
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
In the US, black, and asian peoples contributed hugely to the infrastucture and development of the country, and so they and their descandants have (more than) earned a right to the benefits of living there.
Here in the UK the advancement of the political systems and industrial revolution occured so long ago that many are not fully aware of the work it took to advance the country, and take it for granted.
The British empire did not do any favours for a lot of countries it aimed to 'bring forward' as the peoples of those countries saw the colonialists as demi-gods with all their technology, and without an education could not understand how things like the banking system work. Even today those people look to caucasian people for handouts (their governments being so corrupt as to make the robber barons of the UK's past look like amateurs), instead of feeling obliged to do something for themselves about developing their own countries (voting, campaigning etc.).
A lot of it comes down to environment. The UK is an island, and has had considerable mineral wealth in the past. For this reason it would need defending from constant attacks from the mainland. To do this we had to develop better weapons, defensive structures, ships and harbours. To do all this we also needed better organisational systems and politics, as civil engineering requires better organisation of people. Over time this resulted us in having a superior navy to both the French and Spanish. Also the climate would be a factor. The cold requires better tools to build shelter, and to make clothing.
Compare this to somewhere like Kenya, where for some the threats to your livelihood come more from large wild animals. The Masaii still herd cattle and have to defend them from animals like lions, and they still do it with spears.
The people from Africa are considered more brutal by some, but maybe that's because of the way that wars are fought there (like in Somalia). It's considered far more brutal to hack an animal to death than to shoot it from hundreds of meters away with a rifle, but that is something that is much closer in these peoples past (or even present) than it is here. Living like this would desensitise people to that 'brutality'.
The question of a peoples being any more brutal is not genetic, it is cultural. Any person given a western upbringing and education will have a very different attitude to life than someone who has had to grow up as a herdsman on the African savannah. Individuals have the potential to develop a lot quicker than cultures, and the difference in advancement of cultures on this planet is at the level of several hundred years in places.
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Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think that the US and the UK just have different emphasises- I wouldn't say that one is more racist than the other, or that one is more pc or sensitive than the other.
Just that the USA is more sensitive/pc in some areas than the UK and, vice-versa.
Sensitve as the US may appear, it still, for example, leads the way with harrassment of muslims, with the govt freely condoning torture and exporting muslims to other countires where torture can be used on them.
That's not to say that the UK govt doesn't harrass muslims- it does, just not to the extent that the US has managed.
Other than that, the US does seem to have better racial integration than the UK, possibly because it has so obviously benefitted from immigration.
Though I would say that-
Written by: polarity (UK)
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
is not accepted in the UK as much as the quote may suggest-
while a lot of people do subscribe to the above view, just as many believe the opposite- that immigration has contributed far more positives than negatives to the economy.
That is a complex issue and I have no opinion one way or the other, but I do feel it is important to point out that UK opinion is split on it, othervise some may get the impression that the general UK public are all racist, which they're not.
Just that the USA is more sensitive/pc in some areas than the UK and, vice-versa.
Sensitve as the US may appear, it still, for example, leads the way with harrassment of muslims, with the govt freely condoning torture and exporting muslims to other countires where torture can be used on them.
That's not to say that the UK govt doesn't harrass muslims- it does, just not to the extent that the US has managed.
Other than that, the US does seem to have better racial integration than the UK, possibly because it has so obviously benefitted from immigration.
Though I would say that-
Written by: polarity (UK)
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
is not accepted in the UK as much as the quote may suggest-
while a lot of people do subscribe to the above view, just as many believe the opposite- that immigration has contributed far more positives than negatives to the economy.
That is a complex issue and I have no opinion one way or the other, but I do feel it is important to point out that UK opinion is split on it, othervise some may get the impression that the general UK public are all racist, which they're not.
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But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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"Last of The Lancers"
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Posted:Dave, I hope you don't think that I'd ever suggest that the US isn't racist or isn't as racist as the UK. I'm quite certain that the blatantly racist US population could easily kick the crap out of the blatantly racist UK population with one hand tied behind their back. I'm well aware of the mistreatment of minorities as well. I can't imagine a country that has relied more on the exploitation of immigrants than the US... but my world history isn't all that great so don't quote me.
I'm more confused about the seemingly tolerant liberals in both countries. Whether it be the media or the hippie population.
For example, I just can't imagine any of my friends out here saying something like this:
Written by: polarity
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
In the US, black, and asian peoples contributed hugely to the infrastucture and development of the country, and so they and their descandants have (more than) earned a right to the benefits of living there.
BTW, I think one COULD make an argument for US minorities sapping the economy, there's lots of evidence to support that. I just wouldn't ever imagine that a well educated liberal in the US would put it as blatantly as that.
This concept is getting curiouser and curiouser for me as I suspect that PERHAPS SOME British sentiment is that there isn't any need for further cultural sensitivity on their behalf. [There's nothing wrong with the back of the bus, right?]
I'm well aware of the mistreatment of minorities as well. I can't imagine a country that has relied more on the exploitation of immigrants than the US... but my world history isn't all that great so don't quote me. I'm more confused about the seemingly tolerant liberals in both countries. Whether it be the media or the hippie population.
For example, I just can't imagine any of my friends out here saying something like this:
Written by: polarity
Also, here immigrants have a considerably larger negative affect on the economy, as they get a lot of help from the NHS and the benefits systems.
The health system here is suffering, affecting everyone, and a considerable part of it is down to immigrants getting healthcare that they haven't contributed to (to the tune of tens of millions a year).
In the US, black, and asian peoples contributed hugely to the infrastucture and development of the country, and so they and their descandants have (more than) earned a right to the benefits of living there.
BTW, I think one COULD make an argument for US minorities sapping the economy, there's lots of evidence to support that. I just wouldn't ever imagine that a well educated liberal in the US would put it as blatantly as that.
This concept is getting curiouser and curiouser for me as I suspect that PERHAPS SOME British sentiment is that there isn't any need for further cultural sensitivity on their behalf. [There's nothing wrong with the back of the bus, right?]
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
polarity
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Posted:I think it was the Daily Mail that stated about 70M a year cost to the NHS, from people from other countries who don't contribute to national insurance. It's a bit different from the likes of the Sun and News of the World running that kind of story, and hints that it is becoming a more widely accepted fact.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Posted:I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.
Aside from the fact that the argument you're making would be one I'd be used to seeing from an intelligent, educated, right wing conservative American.
Again, perhaps, supporting my point.
I guess I'm just surprised since I'm generally used to being the most conservative hippie. I am among most of my US friends and I certainly am among most of my UK friends EXCEPT when it comes to cultural sensitivity. Oh, and sex. But I already wrote that thread a while back.
Aside from the fact that the argument you're making would be one I'd be used to seeing from an intelligent, educated, right wing conservative American.
Again, perhaps, supporting my point.
I guess I'm just surprised since I'm generally used to being the most conservative hippie. I am among most of my US friends and I certainly am among most of my UK friends EXCEPT when it comes to cultural sensitivity. Oh, and sex. But I already wrote that thread a while back.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
polarity
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Posted:I get the impression from what little mainstream media I read/watch that government policy on immigration and welfare in the UK is a lot more lenient than it is in the US, or any other developed country, allowing it to be exploited more.
I think the overall cultural acceptance would be a lot better if the general population didn't see so many more people coming into the country year after year, see so many of them in the benefits offices, and in hospitals (people whose grasp of english is very basic, showing that they haven't been here long). There are afro-caribbeans and asian natives who have similar views to whites, in that it isn't benefitting the country to have such an open policy on immigration.
If we had a more restrictive policy, allowing only those who can make definate benefits to the economy, much like other countries do (I'd need a degree to emmigrate to most other developed countries), our economy may be more prosperous, then we could invest in the countries people are emmigrating from, reducing their need to leave.
There are few investors however who favour the common good over profits though.
I think the overall cultural acceptance would be a lot better if the general population didn't see so many more people coming into the country year after year, see so many of them in the benefits offices, and in hospitals (people whose grasp of english is very basic, showing that they haven't been here long). There are afro-caribbeans and asian natives who have similar views to whites, in that it isn't benefitting the country to have such an open policy on immigration.
If we had a more restrictive policy, allowing only those who can make definate benefits to the economy, much like other countries do (I'd need a degree to emmigrate to most other developed countries), our economy may be more prosperous, then we could invest in the countries people are emmigrating from, reducing their need to leave.
There are few investors however who favour the common good over profits though.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Posted:Can I extrapolate that to "A stricter UK immigration policy would prevent the flow of immigrants and therefore reduce resentment towards the immigrants already there"?
I have a bit of trouble with that though as there are HUGE immigration issues here. Conservatives are split between thinking they should be sent back because they sap the economy and that they help the economy by allowing big business to hire them for less. Liberals tend to favor allowing them more access to resources and a leniency of enforcement.
I don't see how any immigration policy should justify a lack of sensitivity towards those that are already legally in the country. I personally believe that those that are not legally in the country should be respected as well but I'm crazy like that.
Do you really think that educated, liberal UK communities are less sensitive towards certain cultures because they are perceived to sap the economy? I would certainly expect that from fundamentalists but it's the liberal standpoint that confuses me.
I have a bit of trouble with that though as there are HUGE immigration issues here. Conservatives are split between thinking they should be sent back because they sap the economy and that they help the economy by allowing big business to hire them for less. Liberals tend to favor allowing them more access to resources and a leniency of enforcement.
I don't see how any immigration policy should justify a lack of sensitivity towards those that are already legally in the country. I personally believe that those that are not legally in the country should be respected as well but I'm crazy like that.
Do you really think that educated, liberal UK communities are less sensitive towards certain cultures because they are perceived to sap the economy? I would certainly expect that from fundamentalists but it's the liberal standpoint that confuses me.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
polarity
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Posted:Trust me I can't believe I'd be taking this view, except that the right wing people have a point:
People working is good for the economy.
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
When the economy is good then it can support those who need assistance, so that they may work and everyone can be of use to the economy.
Allowing adults with little education and no real grasp of the english language into the country adds to expenditure in the support services, and reduces the percentage of the work force that is skilled.
A certain level of skill is needed to get a job that provides enough to live on, beneath that skill benefits are required to supplement income, and education up to the level of skill required would be hampered by language difficulties and existing level of education.
I do get the impression that the liberals here are a lot closer to the political center than those in the US, where it seems politics go much further towards the extremes (maybe due to the difference in population sizes).
I also get the impression that some liberals (both here and there) just want to give the best to everyone, without really knowing where it's going to keep coming from.
Quality of life is based on an economy, and much as I hate the way economics works, there isn't another option that can be immediately substituted in, because not eveyone is as nice and co-operative as the far-left-liberals would like to believe. They may become that way given time and the right education, but we have to get there from competitive economics at a realistic rate of development.
People working is good for the economy.
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
When the economy is good then it can support those who need assistance, so that they may work and everyone can be of use to the economy.
Allowing adults with little education and no real grasp of the english language into the country adds to expenditure in the support services, and reduces the percentage of the work force that is skilled.
A certain level of skill is needed to get a job that provides enough to live on, beneath that skill benefits are required to supplement income, and education up to the level of skill required would be hampered by language difficulties and existing level of education.
I do get the impression that the liberals here are a lot closer to the political center than those in the US, where it seems politics go much further towards the extremes (maybe due to the difference in population sizes).
I also get the impression that some liberals (both here and there) just want to give the best to everyone, without really knowing where it's going to keep coming from.
Quality of life is based on an economy, and much as I hate the way economics works, there isn't another option that can be immediately substituted in, because not eveyone is as nice and co-operative as the far-left-liberals would like to believe. They may become that way given time and the right education, but we have to get there from competitive economics at a realistic rate of development.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Posted: Written by: polarity
Trust me I can't believe I'd be taking this view, except that the right wing people have a point:
People working is good for the economy.
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
When the economy is good then it can support those who need assistance, so that they may work and everyone can be of use to the economy.
Allowing adults with little education and no real grasp of the english language into the country adds to expenditure in the support services, and reduces the percentage of the work force that is skilled.
A certain level of skill is needed to get a job that provides enough to live on, beneath that skill benefits are required to supplement income, and education up to the level of skill required would be hampered by language difficulties and existing level of education.
.
This aggravates me sometimes because it seems to me that everyone wants to point the finger and punish illegal immigrants when the real problem is the people who put them to work in the first place.
Sorry I know it's off topic and I know that's not what you two are insinuating just wanted to add my two cents.
Trust me I can't believe I'd be taking this view, except that the right wing people have a point:
People working is good for the economy.
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
When the economy is good then it can support those who need assistance, so that they may work and everyone can be of use to the economy.
Allowing adults with little education and no real grasp of the english language into the country adds to expenditure in the support services, and reduces the percentage of the work force that is skilled.
A certain level of skill is needed to get a job that provides enough to live on, beneath that skill benefits are required to supplement income, and education up to the level of skill required would be hampered by language difficulties and existing level of education.
.
This aggravates me sometimes because it seems to me that everyone wants to point the finger and punish illegal immigrants when the real problem is the people who put them to work in the first place.
Sorry I know it's off topic and I know that's not what you two are insinuating just wanted to add my two cents.
Delete
polarity
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Posted:I think a huge problem is the confused view immigrants have, that standard of living and quality of life are the same thing.
All the trappings of living in a developed country do not make you happier. If anything they make your life worse, as you no longer feel your contribution is valued by the community as you become separated from it, and entertainment becomes passive instead of active.
The developed world's mental illness and suicide don't get advertised globally though. Their techno toys with happy smiling users do.
All the trappings of living in a developed country do not make you happier. If anything they make your life worse, as you no longer feel your contribution is valued by the community as you become separated from it, and entertainment becomes passive instead of active.
The developed world's mental illness and suicide don't get advertised globally though. Their techno toys with happy smiling users do.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003
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Posted:Just want to mention an observation I have about Australia, even though I realise we might be the "oranges" in the equation cos we're not exactly world players.
But to non Australians, Australia can seem very racist on the surface. However, it's not racism so much as us laughing at ourselves. We know that most of us are of mixed ethnic background and that we're pretty much a country of mongrels, and we therefore laugh at ourselves for it.
I'm not going to pretend racism doesnt occur, however most of the time I believe it is the strange Australian way of accepting and celebrating our history.
So what I'm really saying is that perhaps that could be the difference with the UK and US? The different way each country deals with its differences?
But to non Australians, Australia can seem very racist on the surface. However, it's not racism so much as us laughing at ourselves. We know that most of us are of mixed ethnic background and that we're pretty much a country of mongrels, and we therefore laugh at ourselves for it.
I'm not going to pretend racism doesnt occur, however most of the time I believe it is the strange Australian way of accepting and celebrating our history.
So what I'm really saying is that perhaps that could be the difference with the UK and US? The different way each country deals with its differences?
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
polarity
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Posted:There's always the fact that the UK was pretty much 'whites only' up until the second world war, so we've had less time to become accepting of the idea of 'ethnic minorities' (1/3 of the population of Birmingham ceases to be a minority though.)
Being an island constantly under threat from much bigger countries also tends to make you a bit xenophobic (although the number of times we've been conquered, everyone here is mixed race).
Things are similar for Japan, with the exception that they were never conquered until WWII, and hence have been a tiny bit more xenophobic than the UK, as there wasn't as much influence from other cultures within the country (also like I pointed out for the UK a few posts ago, they became more advanced technologically than their neighbours, as part of being an island).
An ex-pat friend over there says it was a bit like being a black person in the UK during the 70s, although things have changed a lot recently, as the younger generations are far more accepting (and westernised I guess). Some of the older people have refused to speak to him though.
EDITED_BY: polarity (1173003413)
Being an island constantly under threat from much bigger countries also tends to make you a bit xenophobic (although the number of times we've been conquered, everyone here is mixed race).
Things are similar for Japan, with the exception that they were never conquered until WWII, and hence have been a tiny bit more xenophobic than the UK, as there wasn't as much influence from other cultures within the country (also like I pointed out for the UK a few posts ago, they became more advanced technologically than their neighbours, as part of being an island).
An ex-pat friend over there says it was a bit like being a black person in the UK during the 70s, although things have changed a lot recently, as the younger generations are far more accepting (and westernised I guess). Some of the older people have refused to speak to him though.
EDITED_BY: polarity (1173003413)
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon
we're pretty much a country of mongrels,
Don't you call yourselves "feral" any more
Polarity .... i'm in total agreement with your views.
we're pretty much a country of mongrels,
Don't you call yourselves "feral" any more
Polarity .... i'm in total agreement with your views.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
Rouge Dragon
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Posted:Polarity, yes, Japan is VERY xenophobic.
I have no idea about black people in the UK in the 70s, but I can imagine it's very similar. I had older people blatantly refuse to speak to me (despite my high level of Japanese) and was pointed and laughed at while walking down the street.
I have no idea about black people in the UK in the 70s, but I can imagine it's very similar. I had older people blatantly refuse to speak to me (despite my high level of Japanese) and was pointed and laughed at while walking down the street.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
polarity
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Posted:At the same time I found some people to be very helpful to foreigners. I had no problem finding where I needed to go, as I could remember the kanji for all the stations to get from Narita to Hanno, but plenty of people were willing to help by directing me to the right platforms. Probably something to do with the Yokoso Japan thing.
The 70s is when people started coming into this country in numbers, so there was a fair bit of hatred from the older generation. The n word would be used in TV shows, much the same way gaijin is used by some Japanese.
The 70s is when people started coming into this country in numbers, so there was a fair bit of hatred from the older generation. The n word would be used in TV shows, much the same way gaijin is used by some Japanese.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.
Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.
onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
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GOLD Member since Aug 2002
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Posted: Written by: polarity
I think the overall cultural acceptance would be a lot better if the general population didn't see so many more people coming into the country year after year, see so many of them in the benefits offices, and in hospitals (people whose grasp of english is very basic, showing that they haven't been here long). There are afro-caribbeans and asian natives who have similar views to whites, in that it isn't benefitting the country to have such an open policy on immigration.
It's perhaps worth mentioning that a good portion of those are asylum seekers, escaping death/torture from form home nations.
I konw that, to many who oppose immigration, that the distinction is of no concern, however, I just wanted to point out that many of those in HHS queues who can't yet speak decent english, are fleeing for their lives and their families lives.
Written by: polarity
If we had a more restrictive policy, allowing only those who can make definate benefits to the economy, much like other countries do (I'd need a degree to emmigrate to most other developed countries), our economy may be more prosperous, then we could invest in the countries people are emmigrating from, reducing their need to leave.
Written by: polarity
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
I disagree- precisely the reason many claim that immigration is good for the UK economy, is that many jobs require no eductaion and minimal skills- certain factory work, much kitchen/catering work etc.
UK-ers don't want to do this jobs cos they are low-paid and low status.
Immigrants do do these jobs and they tend to do them a lot better than UK-ers.
I think the overall cultural acceptance would be a lot better if the general population didn't see so many more people coming into the country year after year, see so many of them in the benefits offices, and in hospitals (people whose grasp of english is very basic, showing that they haven't been here long). There are afro-caribbeans and asian natives who have similar views to whites, in that it isn't benefitting the country to have such an open policy on immigration.
It's perhaps worth mentioning that a good portion of those are asylum seekers, escaping death/torture from form home nations.
I konw that, to many who oppose immigration, that the distinction is of no concern, however, I just wanted to point out that many of those in HHS queues who can't yet speak decent english, are fleeing for their lives and their families lives.
Written by: polarity
If we had a more restrictive policy, allowing only those who can make definate benefits to the economy, much like other countries do (I'd need a degree to emmigrate to most other developed countries), our economy may be more prosperous, then we could invest in the countries people are emmigrating from, reducing their need to leave.
Written by: polarity
To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.
I disagree- precisely the reason many claim that immigration is good for the UK economy, is that many jobs require no eductaion and minimal skills- certain factory work, much kitchen/catering work etc.
UK-ers don't want to do this jobs cos they are low-paid and low status.
Immigrants do do these jobs and they tend to do them a lot better than UK-ers.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002
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GOLD Member since Aug 2002
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Posted:I do agree though, with much of the current opposition to local authorities being legally obliged to provide translators- I think that service should be more limited (ie not available so freely to those who've been resident in UK for years.
However, this is currently being addressed- the consensus is that immigrants must learn English and that immigrant communities must be less insular.
It's not so much about necessarily reducing immigration, as encouraging (and ultimately, when necessary, compelling) better integration.
Even Asterdam- previously considered very liberal, has faced up to the fact that it's past policy of not organising integration, has been the cause of many problems.
However, this is currently being addressed- the consensus is that immigrants must learn English and that immigrant communities must be less insular.
It's not so much about necessarily reducing immigration, as encouraging (and ultimately, when necessary, compelling) better integration.
Even Asterdam- previously considered very liberal, has faced up to the fact that it's past policy of not organising integration, has been the cause of many problems.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave
I disagree- precisely the reason many claim that immigration is good for the UK economy, is that many jobs require no eductaion and minimal skills- certain factory work, much kitchen/catering work etc.
UK-ers don't want to do this jobs cos they are low-paid and low status.
Immigrants do do these jobs and they tend to do them a lot better than UK-ers.
Kitchen work requires skill and knowledge food safety laws are very strict in the UK, I wouldn't want to go to a restaurant and come down with food poisoning because there was an migrant worker there with no Food Safety Certificate and no idea on how to cook food or even prepare food or cleanliness and clean down operations, it is also a requirement that any one in a food kitchen is required to have passed the food safety exam and that only lasts for 2 years even pot washers at wetherspoons have to do it.
Infact, i think that most companies should look at wetherspoons training, they spend on average 3,000 per employee on training alone, if then you decide to take a similar job with another company and they see that you are wetherspoons trained, you could say that the job is pretty much yours.. within reason.
As far as British education system, i found that to be extremely poor, it wasn't until i left school that i had a vague idea of what qualifications i needed, since then i have made various career moves.
I'm currently learning a new career path right now and have been lucky enough to have beaten an Italian and a migrant worker (no documents) for the job and they had been there longer than me.
There was recently a Test The Nation type program on TV here, i took part and so did a few others from work and also my girlfriend, subjects such as Math, Italianship etc... I scored higher than any one from work and a few marks under my girlfriend, the program was all in Italian so i think that i did fairly well, enough to please myself that in less than 2 years of being a migrant worker myself i can accomplish such a task.
I disagree- precisely the reason many claim that immigration is good for the UK economy, is that many jobs require no eductaion and minimal skills- certain factory work, much kitchen/catering work etc.
UK-ers don't want to do this jobs cos they are low-paid and low status.
Immigrants do do these jobs and they tend to do them a lot better than UK-ers.
Kitchen work requires skill and knowledge
food safety laws are very strict in the UK, I wouldn't want to go to a restaurant and come down with food poisoning because there was an migrant worker there with no Food Safety Certificate and no idea on how to cook food or even prepare food or cleanliness and clean down operations, it is also a requirement that any one in a food kitchen is required to have passed the food safety exam and that only lasts for 2 years even pot washers at wetherspoons have to do it.Infact, i think that most companies should look at wetherspoons training, they spend on average 3,000 per employee on training alone, if then you decide to take a similar job with another company and they see that you are wetherspoons trained, you could say that the job is pretty much yours.. within reason.
As far as British education system, i found that to be extremely poor, it wasn't until i left school that i had a vague idea of what qualifications i needed, since then i have made various career moves.
I'm currently learning a new career path right now and have been lucky enough to have beaten an Italian and a migrant worker (no documents) for the job and they had been there longer than me.
There was recently a Test The Nation type program on TV here, i took part and so did a few others from work and also my girlfriend, subjects such as Math, Italianship etc... I scored higher than any one from work and a few marks under my girlfriend, the program was all in Italian so i think that i did fairly well, enough to please myself that in less than 2 years of being a migrant worker myself i can accomplish such a task.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
Posted:Also i forgot to mention that when i worked in a restaurant here in Italy last year they blatant disregard to kitchen policies, i was glad that i was trained to a high standard to understand that they were doing wrong.
HACCP is a world organisation in food hygiene and is required by all food establishments to work to those standards... i have witnessed blatant ignorance to those policies and HACCP forms just signed off without being physically done.
HACCP is a world organisation in food hygiene and is required by all food establishments to work to those standards... i have witnessed blatant ignorance to those policies and HACCP forms just signed off without being physically done.
PK.
"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."
*Francois Couperin.
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