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Forums > Social Discussion > US/UK Political Correctness

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NYC


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Posted:This is something that I've been thinking about for a while. It's a bit complicated and there are lots of hot topics associated with my main point so I'll try to boil my main point down to one, hopefully clearly worded paragraph:



I find it counterintuitive that there appears to be more political correctness and sensitivity associated with Americans in some areas when examining parallel areas of US and UK society.



The US has this wonderful reputation of doing whatever it want and being generally horrible about how they go about doing it. Much of this reputation is rooted in or stems from fact and history. Yet, I am sometimes startled by some blatantly insensitive things I've seen in the UK that would NEVER be said/done by the parallel organization/group in the US.



Most of these things have to do with ethnic and racial sensitivities. I heard some things on Radio4 that made my jaw drop a few weeks ago. The topics were valid but the delivery was so insensitive. [One example I can remember was the commentators brainstorming as to why blacks are naturally more violent.] There are ways that topic can be addressed more appropriately but the language that the radio commentators used was shocking to an American like myself. I would NEVER expect to hear that from a parallel radio show in the US. The same with sitcoms, internet videos, newspaper articles. I also find it apparent in liberal communities that I hang out with in both countries. If you compare what I'd equate to be parallel communities I just don't see a sensitivity that I'm used to here in the US.



Obviously, if you compare apples and oranges, you can find a difference. I'd expect the Alabama chapter of the KKK to be less sensitive than the Sheffield Knitting Society. I'd also expect some American Shock Jock to be less sensitive than Radio4.



I'm not necessarily judging it. It just surprises me in light of the fact that the US is generally known for it's global insensitivity.



I have some theories about it but maybe I'll wait for some responses first.



[Disclaimer because this is the internet: I picked the US and UK because they are the two cultures I am most familiar with. I am only speaking from my own personal, unscientific observations and isolated incidents. I would be happy to hear of other experiences that would discredit my extrapolations. I consider the UK my second home and love many things about it. I thoroughly enjoy and support Britain, the British, and your mom.]


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Stout
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Posted:One of the factors in the perception of political correctness might be linked to the age of the culture. I've noticed that most white people living in Canada tend to self identify with their European heritage more so than identify as being Canadian.

Might this also be happening in the US too ?

Problem is..that there's no real Canadian identity and anyone who's unaware of their European heritage ( say..by being adopted ) can have a difficult time trying to identify as a Caucasian Canadian without being labelled as a racist by liberals.

On one hand we have the British with long standing cultural traditions and identities, on the other Americans/Canadians with a relatively relatively young culture that's trying to establish one, but having a difficult time because the politically correct keep trying to tell us that trying to do so is a bad thing.

Might the British view their culture as being under attack ?

Were I..as a white Canadian guy...to relocate to any of these cultures we're supposed to be sensitive too..receive the same level of cultural sensitivity that's "expected" of me?


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: polarity



There's always the fact that the UK was pretty much 'whites only' up until the second world war, so we've had less time to become accepting of the idea of 'ethnic minorities'





I would suggest that that is one of the factors. I'm also wondering if there are as many well educated, well spoken minority leaders in the UK. I actually don't know the answer to that. Do y'all have any Obamas (senator and presidential candidate) or Oprahs (TV Tycoon) or Caezar Chavez' (Migrant worker leader) or even any Condaleezas or Colin Powels (secratary of states)? Did you have any Malcolms or Martin Luthers (Civil rights leaders)? I mean, we have a national holiday for Martin Luther King. Even a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods?



I actually have no idea what the answer is to that so I'll take your word.



Even in school, the amount of time we spend on Slavery and American Indians is considerable.



[Hrmmm... interesting random thought, I hadn't really realized how much time we spend on "American History" vs. "World History" in school. Might explain why Americans are generally poor at world history. From it's birth until WW1 or 2, Ameerican history had little impact and was exclusive of most of the world (especially if you compare it with like British history which WAS world history for some time.) I'm thinking of my education... Tons of time on Revolutionary War, Expansion West, Louisiana Purchase, Indians, Slavery, Civil War, lots of stuff that wouldn't really affect a majority of the rest of the world... As opposed to English History where you HAVE to know where France is, and Germany, and Scotland and Ireland, and Wales, and Spain, and... Bah... that's a tangent. But it's perhaps an explanation as to why America isn't as global as it should be. American really didn't need a world map until WW1. I think it's tough for Europeans to understand that most Americans can live their lives without every being all that affected locally by any other country. Again, Bad Me, I'm derailing my own thread. But maybe my point is we've got more experience looking inward because we've got less experience looking outward?]


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: Stout





Might the British view their culture as being under attack ?







THAT's a good point that I didn't think of either. We don't have a historic culture. You want to celebrate Hanukkah? Go for it. You want a national holiday in January to celebrate a black leader? Sounds great.



I also think that it has to do with population. Whites are a minority in US cities.



Take the #1 cities:

London= 71% white, New York City= 45% white

And keep in mind that the NYC white population is extremely diverse as well (Large jewish/italian/irish/etc..)



I'll bet that's surprising to some of y'all because it was surprising to me. I had somehow drawn a parallel between the ethnic diversity in London and New York.



But now let's look at the REST of the US/UK cities:

#2 Birmingham = 70% white; Los Angeles= 42% white

#3 Leeds = 98% white; Chicago = 31% white

#4 Glasgow 90% white; Houston=49% white



If you do the math, the legal US minority population is larger than the entire UK population.



I think I'm beginning to realize that America doesn't export any of it's cultural tolerance. Which is why most UK folks don't see much of it. We only export our hate. frown



Are there such things as Affirmative Action in the UK? What about minority scholarships? Business incentives for minority owned businesses?



It's a shame because our liberal centers MIGHT actually have something to teach about tolerance but it's never going to get heard through all of the hate the rest of my country is exporting. And sadly, I'm not so sure, that anybody else wants to learn it.



Besides, which TV news show would y'all tune in to:

1) "Small section of America might be doing something productive."

2) "More Proof that Americans are Stupid."



wink


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polarity
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Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by: polarity




I think the overall cultural acceptance would be a lot better if the general population didn't see so many more people coming into the country year after year, see so many of them in the benefits offices, and in hospitals (people whose grasp of english is very basic, showing that they haven't been here long). There are afro-caribbeans and asian natives who have similar views to whites, in that it isn't benefitting the country to have such an open policy on immigration.




It's perhaps worth mentioning that a good portion of those are asylum seekers, escaping death/torture from form home nations.

I konw that, to many who oppose immigration, that the distinction is of no concern, however, I just wanted to point out that many of those in HHS queues who can't yet speak decent english, are fleeing for their lives and their families lives.





Every time I've been in to the benefits offices there have been large numbers of east europeans, and very few who you'd expect to be here as refugees. The last time I heard the balkans were pretty stable, and I'm not aware of anyone having anything to run from in Poland since WWII.



 Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: polarity




If we had a more restrictive policy, allowing only those who can make definate benefits to the economy, much like other countries do (I'd need a degree to emmigrate to most other developed countries), our economy may be more prosperous, then we could invest in the countries people are emmigrating from, reducing their need to leave.





 Written by: polarity




To work in a developed country a certain level of education is needed.




I disagree- precisely the reason many claim that immigration is good for the UK economy, is that many jobs require no eductaion and minimal skills- certain factory work, much kitchen/catering work etc.

UK-ers don't want to do this jobs cos they are low-paid and low status.

Immigrants do do these jobs and they tend to do them a lot better than UK-ers.




Like PK mentioned, health and safety is something that requires a minimum level of language skills and education.

I've been on enough farms to see that even the most basic picking jobs have a health and safety factor.

The whole Chinese cockle pickers disaster could have been avoided, if perhaps they could understand the health and safety involved in working on British beaches where the tides changes are so drastic. Simply being able to read warning signs, or being able to talk to locals may have saved lives.

Many colleges run free english lessons, so there is no excuse for not doing something that in the long term would improve your ability to get a better paid job. There are signs in several languages to point this out at the benefits offices too.

Also there is the fact that the lower wages these people accept are often below the minimum wage. I've already said that low wages require supplementing with benefits. Employers are just exploiting the system, and passing off their obligations to pay a decent wage to the benefits system (Those places where groups of immigrants share housing because they don't recieve supplementary benefits are also likely to have health and safety issues. The housing you can afford on benefits may not be good, but it's better than sharing a bathroom and kitchen with a dozen other people, somethimes more).

I've seen plenty of low status, unpleasant jobs being done by British people for many years, as I've done plenty of them part time. There is no need to find extra employees from outside the country, unless you factor in that companies would rather be paying the lower wages, and therefore would be pressing the government for weaker immigration laws. There is a reason readers of the red top papers have a certain view on this subject. It's because they see things happening that the average educated person working on the high street doesn't.

I've heard about local homeless people who are unable to get jobs, because as they have a National Insurance number the employer has to pay more than they would for an immigrant worker.

I've been at factorys where people have lost their jobs because the owners started looking for people who would accept pay below the minimum wage. Those redundant people then need to make use of the benefits system to live. The local authorities wouln't do anything, because to them the statistics said more people were being employed, and that was something they put more value on.

I have no problem with immigrants coming here to work to the same minimum standards and pay rates as residents (I don't expect everyone to have a degree to work here), but it's obvious that they are being exploited by business owners and the government, to the detriment of everyone else. It may be good for the corporate economy, in that the stock prices of companies are given a boost by not having to pay such high wages, but the repurcussions are not good for the local community economies. When the government say something is good for the economy they often only mean the business side, not the community side. Something along the lines of 'Big supermarket creates 2000 jobs!' (All the shops in town loose business and many have to close).


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Stout
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Posted:NYC..after reading your last post 4 or 5 times I've come to the conclusion that you're suggesting my idea that the British may feel their culture is under attack is invalid due to their not being enough of "the other cultures" among the population to warrant that being true.

If so then ok..I figured there might have been a clash of old world cultures going on.

How do you see it that America exports hate ? Through political rhetoric at the White House level maybe ? I sure don't see American popular culture, by which I mean film and television ( I don't actually listen to hip hop or rap so I'll reserve judgement on music as a whole ) as promoting hatred, even in tv shows like Over There which could have been a great propaganda vehicle had the producers so desired.


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: Stout


NYC..after reading your last post 4 or 5 times I've come to the conclusion that you're suggesting my idea that the British may feel their culture is under attack is invalid due to their not being enough of "the other cultures" among the population to warrant that being true.




Nope nope nope... I was actually saying quite the opposite. I was supporting your point. I think that the comparative lack of diversity in the UK is what allows it to do two things: 1) Assert it's dominant culture OVER minority cultures (which can't be done in a place like NYC since there IS no Majority culture.) 2) Accept a lack of sensitivity due to lack of exposure to diversity.

I was actually just watching a (hilarious) Catherine Tate sketch where she made a comment about the Polish that I guarantee wouldn't make the air on any US network TV show. But she wasn't bovvered. wink


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Polarity- I agree with what you're saying that immigrants doing jobs for low pay with little H&S is wrong.



Also that the fact that immigrants are willing to work for less pay, thus excluding local workers from the jobs, is wrong.



I was simply saying that there is a debate and lack of consensus on whether that benefits or harms the economy, with people arguing for both sides.



Having said that, I've also worked in kitchens and the fact is that they're often not overly concerned about H&S and they do employ immigrants because they'll work for less and be seen as better workers (more respect and more appreciation of having the job).



I read a quote recently in a Geoff Thompson article where he was talking to an immigrant worker who was holding down two menial jobs whilst studying at college- her attitude was that 'the UK is great, all you have to do to get ahead, is work!'



It's easy to call it exploitation, but that's not the way the workers generally see it- they've come from places of far lower opportunity.



But, yes, I agree with you that much of it is harmful to locals, possibly to the economy ultimately and that there should be legaly enforced minimum standards of pay and H&S.


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NYC


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Posted:*Waves to the parallel conversation*

wave


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Getting back on topic then smile



 Written by: NYC







I was actually just watching a (hilarious) Catherine Tate sketch where she made a comment about the Polish that I guarantee wouldn't make the air on any US network TV show. But she wasn't bovvered. wink





I think there's a feeling in the UK of comedy recovering from a long period of pc oppression- a lot of people never got over the sacking of Benny Hill etc.



So comedians like Tate and Ricky Gervais are, depending on your POV, either skating a bit close to the edge, or reclaiming humour, with jokes dealing with race, disability etc.



I still think though, NYC, that a lot of the stuff you're talking about, is purely down to cultural differences in humour.



ie you talk of Tates humour not likely to be acceptable in the US, but I'm sure I saw a clip of a US sitcom based on a family of racists called 'the Hitlers' living next door to a family of jews and, the comedic consequences of such a scenario?



That wouldn't really be likely to make it onto UK television (we did, long ago have 'Love thy Neighbour' but that is very much the kind of thing that was abolished with the advent of political correctness).



So that's what i think- neither the US or UK, where their sitcoms are concerned, more offensive or less pc than the other, yet, cos of cultural differences, each will be horrified by some of the others comedy/humour.


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Whoops- just checked the inet and it turns out it was a UK sitcom made by the BBC



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heil_Honey_I'm_Home!



dropped after one episode due to mass complaints smile


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psycotic_furby
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Posted:Janet Jackson's Left Bosom, vs Carry on Camping.



I think in some situations, America seems to my insensitive british eyes to be overly conscious of, in particular, TV and radio broadcasts.



I'd like to think British people make less of a fuss about race or culture, and just get on with it. However the fact we have national daily newspapers that blatently lie about immigration and immigrants, and scaremonger about 'them bloody foreigners, coming over here, stealing our blah blah blah...' makes me think otherwise.



However, I'd say you'd be hard pushed to find a Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh etc etc etc in this country, especially being considered as a serious political and social commentator - not that I'm saying anyone here considers them so, but these people still have a career, and Fox 'News' is still on the air...



In my opinion, you can't talk about situations like race and religion without sometimes being incredibly blunt. To some, it may seem insensitive, but I'd say it's mostly not.

EDITED_BY: psycotic_furby (1173092319)


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The Tea Fairy
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Posted: Written by: NYC


... I think that the comparative lack of diversity in the UK is what allows it to do two things: 1) Assert it's dominant culture OVER minority cultures (which can't be done in a place like NYC since there IS no Majority culture.) 2) Accept a lack of sensitivity due to lack of exposure to diversity.




I'm inclined to agree with these points, a lot of it comes down to a lack of exposure to other cultures, alongside a lack of proper integration. But the issues people relate to that encourage them to conduct themselves in a more/less 'pc' way vary quite widely across different parts of the UK.

I find your point about important public figures from ethnic minorities in the UK (or apparent lack of them) quite interesting. I'm sure we have some, but then I can't think of any off the top of my head, which says something.

There are schemes that try to support and promote ethnic minorities in business and enterprise but most of them are non-government organisations or charities, like EMEP (Ethnic Minorities enterprise project) and BTEG (Black Training and Enterprise Group).


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Spanner
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Posted: Written by: NYC

I heard some things on Radio4 that made my jaw drop a few weeks ago. The topics were valid but the delivery was so insensitive. [One example I can remember was the commentators brainstorming as to why blacks are naturally more violent.]



Which programme was it? I'd like to know so that I can "Listen Again" or look up transcripts if available.

I've thought about this a lot and the only explanation I can think of is that the commentators probably genuinely, albeit subconsciously, thought that no black people would be listening!
Although I love a lot of Radio 4's programming, it still hasn't shaken its white, middle aged, middle class, southern image, so it's understandable that it probably doesn't have a lot to offer a black teenager from a Birmingham council estate (for example), but it's obviously quite another thing to assume that frown

 Written by: Dr_Molly

You'd have loved Radio 4 today - The Now Show had a song that was rude about almost every country in Europe and Israel too! It was suggested as our next entry for the Eurovision Song Contest smile



I also noticed, in the same show, a joke about white people with dreadlocks: not only is it a really old one, presumably about white people wanting to be black, but it also seemed to be an example of the "that's what black people do" mindset.

Rouge hit the nail on the head for me:

 Written by: Rouge Dragon


But to non Australians, Australia can seem very racist on the surface. However, it's not racism so much as us laughing at ourselves. We know that most of us are of mixed ethnic background and that we're pretty much a country of mongrels, and we therefore laugh at ourselves for it.




A lot of people in the UK seem to be very much in denial, considering our backgrounds as literally either black or white.
I wish the UK acknowledged that at least a very significant number of us are also of mixed ethnic background, possibly most of us depending how far back we look: I recently discovered that if I'd been alive in America during the 19th century, I would've been subject to slavery.
It would be very interesting to apply the one-drop theory in the UK in the same way as African-Americans "reclaimed" it in the USA: not a lot of racial/cutural issues are valid when it's no longer a matter of "us" and "them".
I think this is why we don't tend to hear the term "un-British" as we do "un-American": it would mean questioning and accepting what being British really is, which too many people would be either unwilling or too apathetic to do, sadly, as I think it's long overdue.

By the way:

 Written by: polarity


Many colleges run free english lessons, so there is no excuse for not doing something that in the long term would improve your ability to get a better paid job. There are signs in several languages to point this out at the benefits offices too.



Free ESOL courses are being cut in this coming academic year frown


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Stout
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Posted:Might the UK have explored PCness and all the accompanying censorship and "thought police" rhetoric that comes with it and as a culture, rejected it ? OWD's comment about reclaiming humour might just support this idea.

Locally, I feel this is what's happened as evidenced by people prefacing their jokes with comments like " this isn't pc but....." and waiting for some indication that this non pc bit of humour will be appreciated.

Maybe PC has run it's course ? Maybe Liberals are the new "dinosaurs" Maybe the UK population is aware that although you may legislate what's being said in the media, you can't legislate peoples attitudes. Maybe the British have realised that PCness is only practiced by guilt ridden white people and not the cultures who are the victims of white peoples "oppression"

Might the UK have rejected bizarre definitions that defined racism as something that only "the dominant culture" practices? Meaning that were a visible minority to disparage a white person/institution then, by the PC definition of racism, it wouldn't really be "racism" ( because the visible minority isn't part of the dominant culture ) it would be classed more along the lines of "ethnocentricity" Feminism also tried this tactic with the definition of sexism. it too, never really caught on with the general public

In short, might the UK have evolved past PCness and decided to just get on with it instead ? I know, personally, I did, and I've seen the same with a lot of other Canadians.


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The Tea Fairy
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Posted: Written by: Stout


Maybe the UK population is aware that although you may legislate what's being said in the media, you can't legislate peoples attitudes...

Might the UK have rejected bizarre definitions that defined racism as something that only "the dominant culture" practices?

In short, might the UK have evolved past PCness and decided to just get on with it instead ? I know, personally, I did, and I've seen the same with a lot of other Canadians.



That's quite an interesting thought too, especially what you said about not being able to legislate against people's attitudes.

I feel like I have a point i'd like to make, but don't know how to phrase it...

*wanders off to ponder over UK pc-ness and cultural attitudes toward ethnicity...*


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Spanner
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Posted:While browsing without this topic in mind, I found this.
As far as I know, there's no equivalent benefit for descendents of any section of society in the UK, so that's interesting in itself, but I then noticed that this article was in a "Race & Ethnicity" news section.

I honestly wouldn't know whether MSNBC is a particularly typical example of US media or not, but I can't imagine encountering a Race & Ethnicity section in any UK media, so that was an eye-opener for me.


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The Tea Fairy
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Posted:Yeah, in the UK quite a few ethnic minorities have started up their own seperate media (particularly magazines and newspapers) that target their own ethnic groups as audiences, such as

http://www.newnation.co.uk/ - the nations #1 Black newspaper, and

http://www.easterneyeonline.co.uk/ Eastern Eye, the highest profile Asian newspaper, and

http://www.asianamag.com/ Asiana magazine, a leading Indian fashion magazine.

Many of these rose out of a gap in the market because the UK media industry does still predominantly cater for the 'dominant' cultural group and so articles and issues that would only appeal to minorities are often sidelined in mainstream media. The lack of representation of minority groups in the mainstream media is a bit worrying, I'm not sure if this is different in the US?


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


Whoops- just checked the inet and it turns out it was a UK sitcom made by the BBC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heil_Honey_I'm_Home!

dropped after one episode due to mass complaints smile



*Falls over laughing*

Perhaps making my point. (I was thinking that there was no way in hell that would fly in the US.)

Also, perhaps y'all don't realize that there's a big difference between what's Broadcast TV and Cable TV here in the US. I think there might be some shows that make broadcast TV in the UK that were only on Cable in the US.


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: Stout


Might the UK have explored PCness and all the accompanying censorship and "thought police" rhetoric that comes with it and as a culture, rejected it ? OWD's comment about reclaiming humour might just support this idea.

Locally, I feel this is what's happened as evidenced by people prefacing their jokes with comments like " this isn't pc but....." and waiting for some indication that this non pc bit of humour will be appreciated.

Maybe PC has run it's course ? Maybe Liberals are the new "dinosaurs" Maybe the UK population is aware that although you may legislate what's being said in the media, you can't legislate peoples attitudes. Maybe the British have realised that PCness is only practiced by guilt ridden white people and not the cultures who are the victims of white peoples "oppression"

Might the UK have rejected bizarre definitions that defined racism as something that only "the dominant culture" practices? Meaning that were a visible minority to disparage a white person/institution then, by the PC definition of racism, it wouldn't really be "racism" ( because the visible minority isn't part of the dominant culture ) it would be classed more along the lines of "ethnocentricity" Feminism also tried this tactic with the definition of sexism. it too, never really caught on with the general public

In short, might the UK have evolved past PCness and decided to just get on with it instead ? I know, personally, I did, and I've seen the same with a lot of other Canadians.



With all due respect, I find this attitude a bit disturbing.

We're merely talking about a sensitivity towards other people's cultures. I can't really consider a lack of respect "evolved" in anyway.

"I know this isn't politically correct but..." has the same effect as the always popular "I'm not a racist but..." in that it generally preceeds something utterly intolerant.

It's unfortunate that the term Political Correctness has been so misunderstood and misused that it has a negative connotation. I've never heard of that definition or racism and I can't imagine anyone of any level of intelligence has ever used that definition of racism under the guise of Political Correctness.

[Quote]Maybe the British have realised that PCness is only practiced by guilt ridden white people and not the cultures who are the victims of white peoples "oppression" [/Quote]

I disagree that the only people that show respect for other's culture are "guilt ridden whites." I have certainly recieved the same amount of respect and sensitivity from my minority friends and colleagues then I have from my white freinds and colleagues.

Perhaps, we can evolve past the TERM "political correctness" and just offer respect to everyone. But I don't see much of that going on.


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NYC


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Posted: Written by: The Tea Fairy


 Written by: Stout


Maybe the UK population is aware that although you may legislate what's being said in the media, you can't legislate peoples attitudes...

Might the UK have rejected bizarre definitions that defined racism as something that only "the dominant culture" practices?

In short, might the UK have evolved past PCness and decided to just get on with it instead ? I know, personally, I did, and I've seen the same with a lot of other Canadians.



That's quite an interesting thought too, especially what you said about not being able to legislate against people's attitudes.





No, but you can legislate depsite peoples ignorance and attitudes. Espcially when it's the right thing to do.


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Brown vs. The Board of Education


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Disturbing?? Ok..I wasn't trying to be subtle.

Sensitivity and understanding is all fine and well, depending on which aspects of which culture you have in mind. As a generalization, I agree that they're good ideas, but what happens when you run up against a particular cultural practice that doesn't fit the PC mold ? Like ethnocentricity....is that OK ? Or is there some formula for justifying it in the Liberal realm ? Seems to me, what's applied to one "group" should be applied to another...makes sense right ?

I can still respect another culture, yet condemn actions taken by members of that culture regardless if they've been practicing them for generations. For instance...I could raise the case of a certain cultural group that prefers boy babies over girl babies, and will actually terminate a pregnancy if the fetus is identified as female. Am I wrong in condemning this sort of behaviour ? Am I being racist ? Well...you say..it's the way THEY do things...Great I say...then why don't they go back to their own countries to do this..why do I have to compromise my beliefs that this practice is wrong to be happening in my own country ?

How about last years ( and previous years ) flap over Christmas trees in public spaces. Now I'm an Atheist ( or apathetic agnostic..if you want to go down that road ) and I celebrate CHRISTMAS as do hordes of my Atheist buddies. So it's part of my culture to have Christmas decorations...heck I even put them up myself ( and keep them up all year..cue the theme from Deliverance ) Why do I have to listen to the PC tell me, that what amounts to a cultural tradition has to be compromised in favour of someone else's tradition ? It's my tradition that's under attack..and I'd be even more pissed off if I were a Christian and being told that my traditional religious symbolism is no longer appropriate.? Just who is attacking who's culture here ?

Political Correctness has developed a negative connotation simply because the PC went too far, and in some cases is still going to far. A while ago I related a story about how we as a fire spinning troupe were invited to do a FREE show at a local university and then cut,at the last minute because.....The FAUX fur on our boots was offensive to vegans....the flags we were spinning were white, and somehow this was offensive...we had a tribal theme, and we were told that white people can't be tribal....our male/female staff duet was considered too heterosexual...
We just laughed..and settled out of court.

Maybe if PCness had embraced respect for everybody's cultures, instead of white people always being wrong, then it might have caught on with the general population rather than being being reduced to a concept mainly practiced in big city coffee houses and university campuses.

One only has to look at the Liberal attitude towards Christians, and then question the level of respect that culture gets in order to question the sincerity, and motivations of the political left. Hey...lets meet intolerance.....with more intolerance...

I still have a hard time respecting Scientologists though. Am I being un-PC here ?

There's a big difference between what happened in America in 1964..and what happened with political correctness in the 1990's. Back then it was necessary to put everyone on an equal legal footing. Today, with hate crime legislation and affirmative action, it's the whites who are now the legislated second class citizens and I for one, am not too happy about it.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Stout


Today, with hate crime legislation and affirmative action, it's the whites who are now the legislated second class citizens and I for one, am not too happy about it.



I really try not to use the word "wrong" as normally I view it as differing opinions.

There is NO way I can think of ANY valid arguement that would even SUGGEST that whites are now the second class citizens.

Are you SURE you want to make that assertion?


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes

The fact that, under what we've termed employment equity legislation ( this theoretically differs from affirmative action in that there are no quotas imposed ) I as a white male can walk into a job interview only to have the interviewer look me straight in the eye and say " We're not going to hire you because you're white and male and too many people who look like you already make too much money...so go away "

Were I non-white, or female then saying the above would be illegal, but I'm neither so it's legally permissible to discriminate against me based on both my race and gender.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:That's it? That's all you got?



THEORETICALLY an employer MIGHT not hire you at a job interview?



Yeah, true, blacks get shot by police, make up an overwhelming percent of the prison population, can't get a job based on the color of their skin, get spat upon, get crosses burned in front of their churches, get lynched and beaten, CERTAINLY can't get promoted to any decent level, get inferior education in gang infested schools in police state neighborhoods, are LEGALLY allowed to be excluded from clubs, had their history raped, BRING DOWN THE VALUE OF A HOME JUST BY MOVING INTO IT (somebody take over, I'm getting tired..)



And you think that ever hardship and challenge encountered by LEGAL minorities in this country is overshadowed by the fact that THEORETICALLY you MIGHT not get hired due to affirmative action?!



Have you ever met a minority?! Do you have TV news?



And EVEN EVEN if we throw out EVERYTHING that's CURRENTLY being done to oppress minorities... Do you really think that the number of whites NOT hired because of equity legislation exceeds the number of minorities NOT hired due to racism?



Lurkers, PLEASE tell me that I'm not the only one who does not believe that the white majority is being oppressed by the minority population.



I guarantee that there's not a black kid in the projects that wouldn't give his right arm for his biggest problem to be the fact that theoretically he might not be given a job due to affirmative action. [I'm not suggesting that he'd want to be WHITE, but I'm certain he'd like to be treated equally.]



I'm having trouble finding all of the minorities that are running your country. Can you, perhaps, point them out to me? Because they all look pretty white from their photos.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:lets move theoretically into reality
i'm half white and half hispanic, don't speak much spanish, not due to lack of trying
when i was trying to get into college, my first ACT was a 24 and at the time you could only mark on race, i checked hispanic
ok 1) i had colleges have spanish counselors calling for me, not trying english first, but starting off in spanish...and i hung up on them...it is offensive. not that they had someone who could speak spanish but that they assumed my english wasn't good enough to answer a phone because of my last name. if someone has an russian last name, do they have russian speakers call the students?
2)when i took the ACTs again, my mother was not happy with a 24, i recieved a 28, but this time i decided to put white. the ivy league schools that had been badgering me stopped calling. the scholarship forms stopped coming.

when i worked at the local paper and at a bank, they recognized my last name as Mexican, and assumed i could speak Spanish. Boy, were they surprised after they hired me. it was not one job, it was two.

so as a white female i couldn't get into the college i wanted even though i had an ACT 4pts higher
and i got two jobs because they thought i spoke spanish because of my last name.

i agree that these are not huge problems but they are reflective of something being wrong...
the best student (all other things equal) should get the admissions, and scholarships (not of race or ethnic origen).
the best person for the job should get it. if they were looking for a spanish speaker it should be part of the description or mentioned in the job hiring process

when my best friend, no hs diploma and no insurance, got a concussion, we couldn't find a clinic. he was a white male with a roof over his head. even though he was living hand to mouth, we ended up taking him to an emergency room, getting bills we couldn't pay. in our city we have welfare clinics, homeless clinics, women's clinics, hispanic clinics, african american clinics, and hmong clinics.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:And you actually think that in this country you get more privileges if the color of your skin is black than white?



[Rest of post deleted because of bad aftertaste.]


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:shrug maybe it's because we are too worried about being politically correct and drawing attention to skin tones
and i have been attacked for being white in a nonwhite community...they all assume because i look white and behave white that my life has been easy, like yours-NYC
they assume i had the breaks, that i didn't have
now has my life been horrible, no, but it has not been without heartache
i, my bf, and my family, and his all made decisions not to stay down
my father worked as a migrant worker, and now works as a computer analyst...i'm very proud of him


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Bah... I'm deleting my above post. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:There is discrimination against whites- obviously, as NYC points out, it's on a much smaller scale than discrimination against non-whites.

Personally, I think that, where possible, it should be addressed, cos all discrimination is wrong.

I would argue that, ultimately, addressing unjust discrimination against whites is important, not so much for the whites affected, but for ethnic minorities as well.

Cos discrimination kept in place is retaining the habit of discrimination, which affects everyone.

Perhaps, in the UK, the most direct way that instances of discrimination against whites has a bad effect on minorities, is that they form valuable ammunition for rascist political parties like the BNP.

They're currently gaining ground precisisely cos they switched from hatred, to logical argument and, documented instances of discrimination against whites are a powerful weapon in their arsenal.

But-

 Written by:


the best person for the job should get it.




I disagree with.

We live in a culture where opportunities are not equal for minorities.

Like NYC says, look at the skin colour of your govt.

If a culture is 40% non-white, yet the leaders/govt are 98% white, clearly something is not right- representation is grossly scewed.

Setting quotas for jobs to encourage better uptake by minorities is not the only solution and it does have negative consequences, but, skillfully appied, it's part of the solution.

If and when, our culture reaches a place where minorities have equal opportunities, then 'the best person for the job should get it' will be fine and we can proud that, at last, we've reached a position where the 'best person' will be as likely to be non-white, as white.

In the UK we live in a society where minorites still do not have equal opportunity- no doubt about it- I can't speak for the US, but its seems to be not much different (NYCs post seem to suggest so).


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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:In the UK the legislation is in place and it is pretty good, it's just that it doesn't always get carried out in employment practice. UK legislation is as follows:

"The 1976 Race Relations Act makes it unlawful for an employer to discriminate against you on racial grounds. Race includes:

colour
nationality
ethnic or national origins

Under the Act, it doesn't matter if the discrimination is done on purpose or not. What counts is whether (as a result of an employer's actions) you're treated unfavourably because of your race.

The Race Relations Act protects all racial groups, regardless of their race, colour, nationality, religious beliefs, national or ethnic origins."

We also have Positive Action legislation:

"Positive action is where an employer provides support or encouragement to a particular racial group. It is only allowed where a specific racial group is badly under-represented among those doing particular work or filling particular posts in an employer's workforce.

The employer is allowed to provide special training to members of the racial group. They can also encourage members of the racial group to apply to do the work or fill the posts (for example, by saying that applications from them will be particularly welcome).

This does not mean that employers can discriminate in favour of the members of the group when it comes to choosing people to do the work or fill the posts, that is unlawful discrimination.

Positive action is not the same as 'positive discrimination', which is where members of a particular racial group are treated more favourably. Positive discrimination is unlawful."

Taken from: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/DiscriminationAtWork/index.htm

I've done equality and diversity training where I work, the legislation is good and does allow for people to fight employers if they are acting discriminately, but there are probably lots of people who are unaware of their rights, of what constitutes discrimination or how they can go about taking action.

I can sympathise with Faith, I'm also of mixed race and have experienced some very strange forms of indirect discrimination and racial stereotyping, both from white people and asian people. The issues are pretty complex... look at the issues in the debate around whether or not schools should be allowed to ban female muslim teachers and students from wearing the Niqab, for example.

I definitely do not agree that white people are being 'oppressed' by minorities. I've seen things like councils banning christmas trees and renaming the decorations 'festive' lights instead of Christmas lights in an attempt to be PC, but I don't really see this as oppressive, just stupid and misguided.


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