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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > "Modern/Current" definitons of beg/int/adv...

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Just something that came from both the "re-learning the basics" thread, and a couple of workshop proposals I've been writing and have seen written elsewhere...

Over the past year or 3, spinning has exploded with the number of moves available. Some are hard, some are subtle, some are easy, some are counter-intuitive but actually quite effective. As the newer moves become more widespread and better understood, the methods of teaching them develop.

Because of this, something like anti-spin flowers are surprisingly easy to teach nowadays, and I personally think you could teach a newbie anti-spin flowers within an hour... Likewise airwraps (hyperloops are a bit more tricky).

Which raises the interesting (...ish) question of what is "Beginner", "Intermediate" and "Advanced" with regards to poi?

I've offered to run (and have run) workshops at various levels, and the one that always stumps me is when people ask (or I suggest wink ) me to run an "intermediate" poi workshop. I really have no idea what "intermediate" counts as.

As an example, let's take anti-spin chase flowers. All these consist of, is spinning you poi one way, whilst your arms rotate the other way. This really isn't hard, especially if you take the time to work the arms without the poi first.
Yet anti-spin flowers in 2003 were uber-technical.

I ran a workshop for "beginners" - along the theme of "moving the circles". After we'd done giant butterflys and weave/windmill lock-outs, we moved on to flowers. Near the end of the 2-hour class, i reckon about 50% of the group had got anti-spin flowers.

A counter arguement is something like a 5-beat weave - which I've yet to see anyone pick up straight away. I'd say it is categorically an "intermediate" move. Likewise waist-wraps & BTB weaves. No matter how good-a teacher you are, 5bt weaves will always take time to crack.

So it's hard enough defining the difference between beginner and intermediate. So what's the difference between Intermediate and advanced? ubblol

[Side note] This may well be an utterly pointless post of me waffling to myself...[/side note]

To flip it round - What I found most interesting about Nicks' "Scales of Poi" was his ability to take a classic "beginners" move and make it really quite hard. 1-beat windmills in either direction with either hand in front is killer hard for most people.

So my point is (or "was" when I started this...) - "Advanced" moves on the whole are the newer moves. Currently I'd say things like snags & negative space, poly-rhythm and hybrids. There are also stead-fast advanced moves; contact poi and whip catches for example.
So does this mean that "advanced" moves that have been around for more than 2 years drop down a level?
Could there be a point in 3 more years when 7:5-hybrid weaves are intermediate?
(But then-again, polyrhythm isn't actually that hard unless you've spent the last x-years making the poi spin at the same time wink )

So, to throw it open to debate (so I don't look tooooo sad talking to myself...) - what would you define as "beginner" and what as "Advanced"? ("Intermediate" is really too broad a category to definte I reckon...)


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:first ten years = beginner.

biggrin


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
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Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:Hmmm

You are a ponderer Mr Durbs...

OK- my take on one small section of spinning which i know better than most is that of stalls, so i will focus there.

I'm sticking with intermediate... sorry.

Stalls are something most people get- in the most basic sense, simply stopping the motion that brings rotation will cause the poi to stall and die, so literally everyone can do them in some form. Basic then?

For quite a while it seems that upstalls have been a lot more difficult for people to understand and replicate with consistency, and were in the realm of the intermediate/ advanced.

Nowadays though I reckon we've cracked many base principles or ideas which allow the breaking down of style sets and concepts such that they are far more easily communicable and therefore performed.

Whether it be advances like Nicks introduction of the term 'compound circles', Matts extensive work on hyperloops and so on in hybrids, 1.5s (your good self) and the like, we seem to be better equipped to break down things. I agree that flowers and anti flowers etc are now far more common, but turning within anti-spun planes is still f***ing hard, and I've seen very few do it well, so i would still stake that as advanced.

Coming back to stalls, once I had had my little epoiphany (;)) on 'moving the tail' I started to be able to get upstalls pretty easily- they're still intermediate IMO, but now more easily taught to a spinner with some control, with a grasp on the 'basic', which i think must implicitly include a strong foundation in plane control, from whence almost all good thing can spawn.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I guess it all depends on what sort of style you want to teach in. Do you want to use the more traditional moves style of teaching, or do you want a more holistic approach like The Scales of Poi?

When I was new to poi I took lessons based on moves and transitions and spun in this vein for about six months..until I had The Scales of Poi..which just seemed to make all the moves and their relationship with each other make more sense.

I'd suggest a rather open definition of intermediate and advanced and once you see what your students are capable of and interested in doing/learning then take it from there. I know when I teach..I have a tendency to overwhelm people with information and often wonder just how much of it they actually absorb,, but find that most people are happy if they leave knowing they have things to practice and work on to increase their repertoire of things to do with their poi.

Using anti spin flowers as an example..I'll teach the idea ( assuming they have a grasp of a regular flowers ) but not really focus on the student getting the move right there and then but stress that practice and patience will eventually make this move feel a lot less dorky that it feels in the beginning.

Oh yea..the 1 beat windmills...yes killer hard...they humbled me big time...and still do.


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Mireneye
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

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Total posts: 276
Posted:I like to think like this, however I can't say it really does apply to all moves.

When your able to control ever variable of a move at will, or every variable you know about ( this should ultimately include timing, passing, long arm, and at every position your hands can reach ) you've entered the "Advanced realm". Also beeing able to break out of them using more unconventional ways, like contact, throws, turns etc also often enters the "Advanced realm".

As I said above, the differances to this and intermediate to me is that some moves, when you know the opposite can be turned with ease. Like butterflies and weaves.

And simply knowing the moves without further knowledge of turning, timing, positions, is simply "Beginner".

---

An opposing fact is the WW or also mentioned above the 5bt weave. As you said Durbs, these can't just be learned that easily. However I think it is because they introduce new conceps that the one who plays with the poi has not even thought of as possible. I mean, many have problems with BTB moves, so how the hell would they fathom BTB Front-Wallplane weave circles with a pass to the other side ? Or for all that matters, turning your wrists more then what feels initially comfortable. Advanced in this way, is simply I think because your body says "no" beacuse the limits have not been explored by the poi artist, before.

---

But why is it difficult to teach? Well, a friend of mine who's been doing poi for some years picked up the basic movement and theory of a waistwrap in about 4h, two meetings of two houers each. No practicing between. Since then, she's only been practicing her planes. The only thing I did was describe each of the phases, what happens on one side, how the pass is done ( the hardest part ) and how the other side works.

But the 5bt weave... I think it's simply because your so used to 3bt or chase motions. I mean after you can do 5bt weave, most other moves like 5bt corcscrew is relatively easy. And funnily enough, i still can't do this confidently btb or in waistwrap. Weird.

ubbrollsmile

Guess I mostly rambled, I don't have a good answer actually. The future will tell.


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Quick thought on Chutneys post...

Beginner = Stall
Intermediate = Up-stall
Advanced = Horizontal

smile

(Oh, and 1.5s were nothing to do with me, I stole them of Nick and Rob at BrJC - I just gave them their highly erroneous name ubblol )


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Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

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Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:Quick response to Durb's quick response...

Upstalls to horizontals isn't that bad really- it is all about moving the handle, and once you can load up the head with enough momentum and feel how it responds, you can put the tail where you like smile Someone who can consistently upstall should be able to learn horizontals nice and quickly.

1.5s... well you made the tutorial, so I credit you with the general perception change


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garthy
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

garthy

old hand
Location: Bristol, England

Total posts: 717
Posted:Nice post and one which I've also though about a bit

 Written by: Mr_Chutney


I agree that flowers and anti flowers etc are now far more common, but turning within anti-spun planes is still f***ing hard, and I've seen very few do it well, so i would still stake that as advanced.




I was gonna say this after reading durbs post but got beaten to it.
which kinda leads to what Mireneye kinda said which is learning the moves can me easier than learning to move with the moves...

So many people can do anti-spin flowers but much less can move around with them freely.

I guess it's more about breaking the older spinners perceptions of levels of moves and working out what really is hard and what is just escaping from years of practiving 1:1 timing / Planes etc... biggrin


"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:i think a lot of it may have to do with how the spinner views themselves, both in relation to their previous spinning, and also to other spinners.


beginner: someone who hits themselves with their poi, or has unintentional irreversable (to them) tangles, regularly. probably hasnt spun fire. has no (or very few) set patterns.

intermediate: someone who knows enough to spin comfortably in public, but knows that there is heaps more to know, and they want to advance. spins fire, may be apprehensive about the fire. still holds on to both poi continuously. may do a few wraps*.

advanced: someone who is comfortable performing in front of thousands of people, and has other poiple praising them (giving them props, is some slang for ya from nz) and asking them to show them how to do such-and-such. wraps, tangles and throws fire with comfort and ease. spins spontaneously, pulling anything out of their hat (metaphorically), as well as creating and consistently spinning complex patterns.

* its interesting to see relative newbies to spinning doing wraps much sooner than when how soon they started doing them a few years ago... like, spending less time spinning poi before "unlocking that move" (/technique), you know?


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bluecat


bluecat

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Location: everywhere

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Posted:wicked. i fit all of your descriptions, shen shui. ubblol

i think i wrote pages on this topic in the teaching moves thread. i'll go and read it, then come back and reply here.....

smile

good thread, though, durbal.


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Red_RaveN
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

Neo - Hippie
Location: Sala, Slovakia

Total posts: 358
Posted:There are so many answers as there are poiple IMHO.. Everyone has a slightly different approach.

To classify a move as beginner or advanced, I'd suggest doing something like a statistic, finding out at which level people usually learn a move. And then, put the move's concept a category higher. Tho maybe you'd need more categories for this concept smile

Say.. Beginner, intermediate, advanced, pro, jedi. (for illustration:))

Weave, reverse weave & basic turning - basic.
Lockouts, fountains, basic flowers - intermediate.
turning with flowers, fluent integration into weaves - advanced

5 bt weaves & turning - intermediate
4/5 bt fountains, crosses - advanced.

and so on..

tho all of this would require a fair amount of concentrated effort and study (from spinners) to make a certain standard. which in turn would be VERY hard to apply anywhere outside HoP. I know what I'm talking about here smile


Smile.. It confuses people..:)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:I wasn't looking to classify individual moves into beg/int/adv - partly because it would just be purely arbitary but also I think they change over time...

Another way of looking at it could be there are beginner moves and there are beginner concepts which can be applied to any move. Again, this just spirals into a huge range of stuff, but as a quick example, anti-spin - as a concept - applied to any move is advanced (a-s weaves, a-s flower turns etc), whereas anti-spin flowers as a move in their own right are probably intermediate..

Isolations are another concept/modification which are one of those moves you have to work on to get right, you can't just teach someone iso'd buzzsaw, they have to go away and practise it. But, once they've got it, they can isolate pretty much any move with relative ease. (Incidentally, isolations reinforce the point of what was once jedi, really isn't any more...)

But then inversions I personally find are always tricky, quick and awkward, so I'd rank them as an advanced modifitation smile

Giants are an example of a beginner variant...

~~~

Then, as a completely different approach as you some people have mentioned. There's learning a move and being able to do it at will, and then there's being able to move with it, turn with it, play with it.
But again, moving/turning with a weave doesn't still wouldn't make it intermediate IMO. Obviously you can get an uber-advanced spinner make turning a weave look like the most graceful thing on earth, but that's by-the-by. The move is easy(ish).

Conversely A-S flowers are a great example of an intermediate move that's really hard to play/move with. Perhaps this is why you see them alot in videos on their own, but not chucked in whilst pirouetting as you would with hip-reels (for example).

I'm not discussing this in the view of whether a person is beg/int/adv as that's even more speculatory, relative and pointless. But it does open up the point Garthy mentioned (somewhere) about a newbie picking up stuff like hyperloop combinations, contact poi and whip-catches whilst still not being able to do hip-reels in both directions smile

What a strange world we live in smile


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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted:Great thread Durbs. I feel that our (meaning the overall poi community) view of what's beginner and what's advanced really needs a complete overhaul.

Things like insides and inswings I feel should be taught from the get go, which is what I now do when I teach. Inswings are a basic way to manipulate the poi that just about anyone can get in wheel plane. Then after they master that they can put it into bf's in wall plane. A basic inswing is just that, basic. It's only because alot of us have been spinning long before inswings and insides were well known that they seem like a challenging new move.

If we teach the basic idea behind "advanced" concepts to beginners, i.e. teach them basic insides, basic antispin, basic longarm, basic tangles, basic polyrhythm from the start they will already have an idea in their heads that this is a way I can manipulate the poi and they will be able to work on that on their own. I had no idea you could spin in all these inside planes for a long time, all I did was buzzsaws and inversions but now that I know you can play in these areas as well I have found tons of variations. If only I was shown inside planes from the start they would have been just another way to manipulate the poi not some new concept after I had already established a certain style that I would have to work on hard just to understand them.

Knowledge is power and familiarizing students with "advanced" concepts from the start can only help them grow that much more as spinners.


Peace, Love, Circles

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:my god. I really thought this thread was simple.

how about:

beginner: all of spinning.
intermediate: flow.
advanced: dance / character / story
master: all of the above, without thinking. (and having been spinning for more than ten years smile )

I mean, if some noob can learn infinite hyperloops, anti-spin hugs, hybrids, flowers, hand isolations, btb upstalls and all that jazz in under a year, where does that leave anybodies definitions of beginner / advanced? There are no 'moves' so why base it on that? Give it up. Base it on something else that doesn't involve how many tricks you or anyone else has learned.

or maybe base it on how many modifiers some move has. (like nx? told me about) hybrids = intermediate cos they're based on two concepts, isolation and longarm, same with isolated weave etc...

"you gotta have a system!"


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bluecat


bluecat

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Posted:ubblol

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: Rovo


I feel that our view of what's beginner and what's advanced really needs a complete overhaul.



smile

 Written by: Rovo


It's only because alot of us have been spinning long before inswings and insides were well known that they seem like a challenging new move.

If we teach the basic idea behind "advanced" concepts to beginners, i.e. teach them basic insides, basic antispin, basic longarm, basic tangles, basic polyrhythm from the start they will already have an idea in their heads that this is a way I can manipulate the poi and they will be able to work on that on their own.



Excellent way of putting it smile

I wonder how much of what us "old-timers" find difficult is actually because we have to un-learn stuff.

The "trouble" could be that one week you teach a newbie that planes and accurate timing are important factors of poi spinning. Then next week you tell them that they shouldn't get stuck in spinning in wall, wheel and floor planes with 1:1 timing as these are limiting ubblol
I think this is where it could cross over into the "Teaching Moves" thread - I'd argue that planes and tight timing should be taught, but maybe cross-planes (atomics/trinity) and poly-rhythm should be introduced very early on so as not to form mental ruts which you always resort too.
Or conversely, once the basics have been nailed, then you introduce cross-planes and poly's and drill them in too ubblol

Ultimately, any poi move is a combination of plane, timing and hand-position - so if you teach a beginner all the possibilities they could in theory come up with all the stuff that's out there.

However (back on topic) - this method almost negates beginner->advanced as most of these (except a few really hard things: whip catches, contact, iso's as previously mentioned) are really simple on their own. It just becomes a sliding scale based on the amount you know umm

In one respect therefore, atomics are beginner moves. A basic atom is just 1:1 spinning on cross planes after all smile

I was considering this when coming up with a beginners poi course...
I know I could teach a complete newbie the "secret" to infinite poi moves wink Teach them as you say the planes, the timing, compound circles and the like. If they clicked with it, they could go on an develop at a scary-quick rate.
But then again for most people, this workshop would suck ass.
People, and I think beginners especially, want to walk away from their first class and say "look - i can do a butterfly" as opposed to "Look I can spin my poi in 4 planes at varying timings. Not well yet, but my teacher says in a couple of years I'll be a jedi" ubblol


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Rovo
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

Rovo

(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Total posts: 544
Posted: Written by: Durbs

"Look I can spin my poi in 4 planes at varying timings. Not well yet, but my teacher says in a couple of years I'll be a jedi" ubblol



ubblol


Peace, Love, Circles

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:i think using moves to catagorize "levels" of poi-spinning-ship (there are no moves? then there are also no levels!) is a rather limiting way of looking at it. rather, i feel it is more appropriate to define according to control and style and comfort.

bluecat: same :P maybe one level transcends but includes the previous (holon theory for ya).


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted: Written by: mcp



beginner: all of spinning.
intermediate: flow.
advanced: dance / character / story
master: all of the above, without thinking. (and having been spinning for more than ten years smile )




What the hell is this? I agree with meg. That's not right. ubblol

I was always of the notion that it didn't really matter how many moves or even what moves you know, but how you used those moves. Differentiating levels to me was like what meg said. Learn the moves. Learn how to use the moves. Learn your own unique style.

Theoretically once you have down the plane control and hand motions, all moves are easy. They just take time and practice to get down.

True mastery comes from being able to use those moves to actively ascribe meaning onto your poi/prop. Turning your poi into a dance, into a story, into art.

Once you get far enough into poi - or any dance I learned in college ballroom wink - the moves you learn and choose to use and how you embellish them will tell people something about your personality and soul. It's actually quite creepy smile


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sxsk17
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

stranger


Total posts: 17
Posted:On the subject of mental ruts and such:

In a way, mental ruts are what makes much of spinning so easy to do once you've learned it. Mental ruts make you automatically do things like keep your planes straight or turn 180 degrees at a time, or keep 1:1 timing. A vast majority of the time this is desirable.

If a newbie learned the normal 1:1 timings simultaneously with polyrhythms, his timing might not be as consistent for a while.

Metaphorically, polyrhythms are a different rut which you must jump into, and out of your 1:1 rut. both ruts must be dug, if you dig them one at a time you'll get the first one done alot quicker. Then again, digging both simultaneously gives you two ruts from the very beginning, though each may not be as deep.

And, as Durbs pointed out, beginners want to learn something they can use, not just a bunch of "prerequisites". Also, giving beginners fewer moves from the very beginning will probably get them turning and flowing with those fewer moves earlier than they would if they had loads of moves to learn to a basic degree before they started flowing at all.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I agree with Kael and Meg... style is what makes the difference, i think.

And Durbs... I agree. Teaching people to spin good planes and timing one week, then off plane the next would be a mess.

Beginners are just getting into poi, they are mainly interested in spinning stuff around without hitting themselves on the head... and don't really care if they're doing some seperate time, cutting edge funky stuff. Especially stuff that has more chance of hitting them on the head.

I'd be more inclined to teach the basics, with same and split time spinning... and if they are still interested in learning more, they can go to an uber-workshop, or watch online vids of you smile

x


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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:My thinking on this is along the lines of Meg's & Kael's...characterizing moves or concepts with these levels is rather arbitrary, and different spinners won't have the same level of facility with the same concepts even if they're starting at the same time (as the example of a newbie picking up hyperloops before hip reels illustrates). And designating a hyperloop or wrap as more advanced than a weave is totally arbitrary. We tend to think of a weave as "easier" because most of us learned it first (or second, after the butterfly). But is it really truly inherently easier than a hyperloop?



I actually think the use of language in communication is a good (though limited) analogy to use. Each individual move is analagous to a letter, and in learning how to spin we are, in essence, learning an alphabet and the rules of grammar.



A college professor and a six year old both learn and use the same alphabet and the same rules of syntax and grammar. But what makes one "advanced" at the use of language and the other a "beginner" is the complexity of arrangement and meaning. Both the college professor and the six year old are drawing from the same pool of 26 letters and learning the same syntax, grammar, etc., but the writings of the two will obviously be very different. The distinction between "advanced" and "beginner" therefore is not inherent in the "moves" themselves.



Likewise, spinners draw from the same pool of "letters" i.e., moves and variants (such as isolation, antispin, etc.) but what sets apart "beginner" from "advanced" is how those moves are deployed, the complexity of transitions and variations, how the body is moved in relation to the poi and vice versa...



I think the urge to characterize certain moves and concepts as beginner/intermediate/advanced is flawed because, as Durbs and others have pointed out, what is considered advanced changes over time, as we have seen happen with btb weaves, isolations, the 5 bt. weave. Go back 4, 5, 6 years in these forums and you'll see how these moves were once the apex of technical difficulty and now are completely taken for granted and not even that hard anymore. I think that this urge to categorize right now springs from the fact that we're (collectively as a community) still discovering or perhaps inventing the alphabet. It's not done yet.



Also, the span of time a practitioner has been at it is less relevant than how much time they put in within that span. For example, two students of the same age and grade who have known how to read for the same number of years won't necessarily be at the same reading level, if one of those students reads a lot more in that same time frame than the other. Likewise two spinners who have been spinning for ten years won't necessarily both be "advanced" if one of them has practiced every day for ten years and is constantly learning new stuff (i.e., expanding their vocabulary) while the other only practiced on weekends or once in a while and was more casual about picking up new moves. The results will be very different even though they've both been spinning for ten years.



So for me what distinguishes someone as beginner, intermediate or advanced is the level of complexity in how they spin, and also how cleanly they spin. And really, beginner and advanced are just opposite ends on the scale of intermediateness.

EDITED_BY: _khan_ (1172623287)


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Red_RaveN
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

Neo - Hippie
Location: Sala, Slovakia

Total posts: 358
Posted:Why not do a kind of a statistic research on what is easy or hard to learn..?:)

I mean, take a few moves/concepts.. And see how fast people pick it up, based on other concepts they do or do not know. Collect the data.. And do things I can't think about this early in the morning but anyway it would maybe help other people in their approach of teaching stuff and later even we could see if and how some moves are easier to learn. Maybe..


Smile.. It confuses people..:)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: _khan_


I think the urge to characterize certain moves and concepts as beginner/intermediate/advanced is flawed because, as Durbs and others have pointed out, what is considered advanced changes over time



So does this suggest that, barring nothing new being discovered/invented in the world of poi - all moves will sort of settle to the bottom of the tank and become easy?
I think we're all agreed that the longer a move has been around, the more it's understood, the easier it is to explain and the easier it is to learn.
So does "advanced" mean new-to-"us"?

Re: Meg, Clare & Kael - You're talking about spinners being beg/int/adv, which ain't what I'm discussing (:p wink) - Yes, the longer a person has been spinning (either in years, or practise hours) will make them more advanced and move more easily with and between moves (rather than the moves they know).


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Durbs


Which raises the interesting (...ish) question of what is "Beginner", "Intermediate" and "Advanced" with regards to poi?




errrrrrr, oh sorry, I was supposed to read the invisible word "moves" in there right?

 Written by: Durbs


Re: Meg, Clare & Kael - You're talking about spinners being beg/int/adv, which ain't what I'm discussing (:p wink) - Yes, the longer a person has been spinning (either in years, or practise hours) will make them more advanced and move more easily with and between moves (rather than the moves they know).



Well, happily my answer still applies,

beginner: spinning.

I don't think there are any poi moves that can be considered intermediate or advanced. Yes including contact poi or whip catches. So my answer is still that all the poi moves are beginner moves.

And whats more, I love your complete disregard for practising movement and flow with poi. Nice one.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted:I think some who figures out that REALLY simple moves - ala A pendulum - count for alot when utilised effectively can be considered an intermediate/advanced spinner. Essentially when they realise that less can be more...

If a person can pull off loads of advance techy moves but can only do so when they stop in a one-beat wheel plane position between each move, I'd still consider them intermediate...

Someone who can take simple moves and have a nice flow in terms of transitions and pacing I'd still consider intermediate but just edging more towards advanced...

Using Meenik's perspective of poi movies as notes in music.
- Do you really want to listen to a virtuouso guitar solo all the way through a song? Or do you find a song more rewarding when the song has a flow, a pace a build-up, shifts between minimalism (and melody) and more complicated sections?


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Spinning, manipulating, dancing,

learning, practising, teaching,

that's question.



Did you thought about 'classic'?



lightning,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted: Written by: Durbs


 Written by: _khan_


I think the urge to characterize certain moves and concepts as beginner/intermediate/advanced is flawed because, as Durbs and others have pointed out, what is considered advanced changes over time



So does this suggest that, barring nothing new being
discovered/invented in the world of poi - all moves will sort of settle to the bottom of the tank and become easy?



 Written by: mcp


I don't think there are any poi moves that can be considered
intermediate or advanced. Yes including contact poi or whip catches.

So my answer is still that all the poi moves are beginner moves.




I mostly agree with Meg here. Yes, some moves are more difficult than others but I do wonder if that's a result of having to unlearn certain habits in order to do them (as someone else has mentioned in this thread). Is the difficulty or ease of a move inherent in the move itself, I guess is the question. I think it's not.

Durbs, you mentioned that people have asked you to teach an intermediate workshop (that is, I believe, how this thread started). Not knowing anyone involved, I'm going to guess that these are people who have the basic moves down but need ideas or guidance to proceed. Maybe such a workshop could focus on transitions and helping students find them? Maybe introduce concepts like isolation and antispin that can be applied to any move? Maybe have as a prerequisite that whatever moves each student can do that they can do them in both forward and reverse? Just a suggestion.

Ultimately though, I think the beginner-through-advanced model, as applied to poi, is fairly crude and arbitrary.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:smile
I'd already got the "intermediate" poi courses worked out in terms of content, it just struck me as interesting how several moves have shifted down the scale smile

I see where Meg is coming from in terms of if taught on their own, few moves are harder than any other. Although i'd argue that whip catches and contact poi could never be considered beginner, likewise btb and 5bt weaves as previously discussed. With the whip catches and contact, there's an awful lot of precision needed to get them to work. I don't think you could get a complete newbie and show them a propellor and they'd get it anywhere near as quick as a 3-bt weave (I've never tried mind you...). Other moves are inherantly awkward - compare a 7bt weave to a 3bt - one is much more difficult than the other.

But yes, with lots of concepts (as opposed to specific moves) there isn't actually much range in difficulty other than un-learning stuff or doing things which seem counter-intuitive smile


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:From a perspective, current spinning is hopefully
same like before, but got more time independent
and directionless, modern.

relative difficult,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted: Written by: Durbs


I don't think you could get a complete newbie and show them a propellor and they'd get it anywhere near as quick as a 3-bt weave (I've never tried mind you...). Other moves are inherantly awkward - compare a 7bt weave to a 3bt - one is much more difficult than the other.




hmmm...you do have a point there. maybe it's a matter of beginner and "advanced beginner." ubblol


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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