PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
This has sparked my thoughts this morning.

I love archeology for finding stuff like this, for uncovering history, and peoples and cultures.

I hate archeology for disturbing graves and essentially grave robbing.

I am extremely split on the entire topic. I always have been. Sometimes I see the entire thing as no better than any money grubbing grave robber in history.

But then sometimes something turns up..like Pompeii or this..and I appreciate it, until they start talking about testing them for this and that, then I get a bit grrrr about it again.

Any thoughts?

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


fNiGOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA


Posted:
well by nature archaeology is destructive. that's just the way it is. but to call it grave robbing is a slight against the field. an interesting read is "The Medici Conspiracy" which details how grave goods were illegally taken out of the ground and moved to museums around the world.



oh and to test for age requires bone measuring, and as for how long they've been down there, not sure how they'd do it



-*waits for others to chime in*

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
I can't say I've ever considered it grave robbing, which to my mind conjures images of pilfering tombs for personal gain or disturbing graves for body parts...



Religions , with regards to burial rites, change throughout the ages... Personally I don't see any moral issue with disturbing a grave from 1000s of years ago. Chances are that their religion is dead/dramatically changed so no-one is around to be morally outraged at the percieved desecration. But this is speaking as an atheist who sees that physical death leads to nothing but good compost.



Obvisouly this viewpoint raises the issue of whether there's a timeline at which stage disenterrment becomes "ok". For example the Inca culture is very recent, having finished only around 500 years ago. Yet it's such a mystery that archaeology is the only option of discovering more about them (having no written records and very little in hyroglyphs or illustrated documents).



I really don't see how discovering a couple of bodies embracing 5000 years after they died is contentious. If they had souls, they'd probably be more outraged at the city that'd been built over them (in Rome for example).

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


jeff(fake)Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh


Posted:
I see no reason to object to anything they've done or plan to do in this article.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


MikefromGlosSILVER Member
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England


Posted:
well coming from a history student who wants to be archelogist my view is going to be slightly biased but to be honest i would feel specail if i knew my grave was being dug up so that we can remember as it where what was going on before us and not make the same mistake again. Prehaps its just me but isnt that what life is about learning!!!

he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.

Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
learning and playing with fire - yes wink

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


PeleBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA


Posted:
 Written by: Durbs


I can't say I've ever considered it grave robbing, which to my mind conjures images of pilfering tombs for personal gain or disturbing graves for body parts...

Religions , with regards to burial rites, change throughout the ages... Personally I don't see any moral issue with disturbing a grave from 1000s of years ago. Chances are that their religion is dead/dramatically changed so no-one is around to be morally outraged at the percieved desecration. But this is speaking as an atheist who sees that physical death leads to nothing but good compost.

Obvisouly this viewpoint raises the issue of whether there's a timeline at which stage disenterrment becomes "ok". For example the Inca culture is very recent, having finished only around 500 years ago. Yet it's such a mystery that archaeology is the only option of discovering more about them (having no written records and very little in hyroglyphs or illustrated documents).

I really don't see how discovering a couple of bodies embracing 5000 years after they died is contentious. If they had souls, they'd probably be more outraged at the city that'd been built over them (in Rome for example).




But then there are ones that we *do*, in fact, know about. I doubt highly that an ancient pharoah would be happy to find his belongings that were to remain buried with him, to be scattered to museums around the globe, along with his own mummy.

Pieces of pottery or homes, etc, I have no problem with.
Going into tombs and disturbing it, especially for cultures where we do know the death rites were a large part of it, I have a problem with.

I say just burn me the old fashioned way...on a raft and wave goodbye. wink

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


MikefromGlosSILVER Member
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England


Posted:
but had they knowen what we know today wouldnt they be doing the same

he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.

Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing


fNiGOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA


Posted:
 Written by: Pele



But then there are ones that we *do*, in fact, know about. I doubt highly that an ancient pharoah would be happy to find his belongings that were to remain buried with him, to be scattered to museums around the globe, along with his own mummy.





Most of which were robbed my grave vandals several years after they were put up. Which is why pharaohs stopped building pyramids which were essentially saying "Come, loot me". You're view isn't addressing modern archaeology, because otherwise the relics would not be leaving the country. In a proper dig everything is recorded and cataloged and I know that Egypt has some of the strictest antiquities laws in the world. What you seem to be talking about is from the turn of the century to pre-WWII, when archaeology was in the hands of the wealthy who could afford to excavate.



>

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


MikefromGlosSILVER Member
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England


Posted:
lol.... ahhh but what you got to remember is that before the 20th centary people didnt even know what it was so you got to give humans a chance to borden there horizans

he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.

Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing


MynciBRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom


Posted:
looking at it, I reckon they may not have even been "buried"...

That long ago I reckon they could have died from the cold possibly a snow storm... hugging for warmth...



I don't have a problem with Archeology personally I find it fascinating, and agree with fNi about how now Archeology is a leanring experience and not a grave robbing financial gain.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


BrokenLeavesSILVER Member
member
48 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
My veiw is generally if a grave has been there long enough for noone to care about it anymore then I fail to see the problem. I am against digging up modern graveyards for supermarkets ect...but....once your dead..well..you are dead. You wont care if someone disturbs your grave, you won't even know and as long as there is noone left to get upset about it I don't think we should miss out on learning things becuase someone who died hundreds of years ago is buried there.

DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
 Written by: Pele


But then there are ones that we *do*, in fact, know about. I doubt highly that an ancient pharoah would be happy to find his belongings that were to remain buried with him, to be scattered to museums around the globe, along with his own mummy.

Pieces of pottery or homes, etc, I have no problem with.
Going into tombs and disturbing it, especially for cultures where we do know the death rites were a large part of it, I have a problem with.




a) The pharoah's dead...he's not going to mind that much. Unless the Egyptians got it right (about the afterlife), in which case 1000's of years worth of dead people must really be clogging up the netherworld.

b) Often it's only in the tombs where you find alot of the pieces of pottery (and infact models of homes continuing with the Egypt theme) - and especially the more dazzling piece of craftmanship. Some of the Saxon goldwork is jaw-dropping, but we only know how good they were at it because they left the best pieces with their kings/queens in the tombs.

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


faith enfireBRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA


Posted:
one problem with studying the pottery and such is that with limited knowledge of a community that jar that looks inconspicuous may in fact have religious significance, as an urn or symbolic soul of the household
imo you can't have it both ways leave the grave but other stuff is ok

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed


fNiGOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA


Posted:
pele, as far as the US goes, there's legislation called NAGPRA (native american grave repatriation act) which if a tribe claims the bones as those of an ancestor, the (native american) nation then has the choice as to what to do with them. I worked with NAGPRA bones in one of my classes (on osteology) and the tribe actually wanted us to count them, handle them, because all they were were burnt bones.

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


Cdawgnewbie
4 posts

Posted:
I would like to commend fNi on his excellent wikipedia work. He does touch lightly on certain relevant points. However he is clearly a student and as well all know, students dont know [censored] about reality wink . As a professional having spent nearly a third of my life in the field, I can tell you that graverobbing an aspect of the job, its a perk!. fNI seems like the kind of guy who wears a rock necklace and thinks he knows the reality of our profession. Most of us are dirt poor, digging through, dirt and excrement for that next fragment. Professionals pocket trophies all the time. For those of us lucky enough to have a home to come back to, you'll find plenty of little trophies that we havent let slip into some collector's posession for some extra pocket money. Don't be fooled, we're as thieving a bunch as a pack of gypsies and damned proud of it. Whine all you like. Dead people pay the bills biggrin

Hugs
-C


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