Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > 0 Anti-spin
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
That is well known today, that difference
between spin and antispin is wheather Poi
move the same way like hand or opposite.
We can imagine spin or anti-spin as serie
of patterns, with count of circle(foil)
vary.
Q: Does this serie has a boundary?
All right, first of all we can say we are
'restricted' by what is called a sphere.
Holding Poi handle, the maximal extension
is a line of hand and Poi. The giant,long-
arm. Where Poi head touches the sphere.
Moving the Poi head on the line the oppos-
ite way, we need to find a move where Poi
head lay beside shoulder. Because behind
the shoulder we get back again on the line.
The move is full izolation.
Q: Are these boundaries for spin
and anti-spin the same?
Looking closer to the finishing moves of
each patter serie. We may answer.
The spin line if far easier then the anti-
spin:
Code:
1 - lock-out
2 - half-flower
* - ******
Solution for 1 and 2 anti-spin were succ-
essfully found nowadays.
Code:
1 - Superspin ("Negative curve" thread)
2 - Trammel ("Trammel" thread)
I were looking for a 0 anti-spin figure a
while, thinking that full izolation is the
spin and long-arm as well. But wait, look-
ing carefully to full izo, by spin and an-
tispin diffrence.
I say, full izo isn't neither spin nor an-
ti spin. The reason is the becase with a
full izo Poi 'lay' on hand.
It is like no Poi, only hand, it can't be
said wheather direction in relation to
hand Poi moves, but foreward or backward.
Looking carefully on longarm we can find
the same.
Long arm is only and only hand extension.
It is like having very long hand, you re-
member.
You really can't say if Poi moves same or
opposite direction in relation to hand.
Q: What it meens?
It meens that there is possible way to
change spin to anti-spin without those
'does he stop for a while' thingeries.
It meens that the spin serie and anti-
spin serie make a coincidently, circle:
Code:
full izo
/ \
/ \
spin anti-spin
\ /
\ /
long arm
And that meens a lot! Edit(I'm excited.)
love,
:R
That is well known today, that difference
between spin and antispin is wheather Poi
move the same way like hand or opposite.
We can imagine spin or anti-spin as serie
of patterns, with count of circle(foil)
vary.
Q: Does this serie has a boundary?
All right, first of all we can say we are
'restricted' by what is called a sphere.
Holding Poi handle, the maximal extension
is a line of hand and Poi. The giant,long-
arm. Where Poi head touches the sphere.
Moving the Poi head on the line the oppos-
ite way, we need to find a move where Poi
head lay beside shoulder. Because behind
the shoulder we get back again on the line.
The move is full izolation.
Q: Are these boundaries for spin
and anti-spin the same?
Looking closer to the finishing moves of
each patter serie. We may answer.
The spin line if far easier then the anti-
spin:
Code:
1 - lock-out
2 - half-flower
* - ******
Solution for 1 and 2 anti-spin were succ-
essfully found nowadays.
Code:
1 - Superspin ("Negative curve" thread)
2 - Trammel ("Trammel" thread)
I were looking for a 0 anti-spin figure a
while, thinking that full izolation is the
spin and long-arm as well. But wait, look-
ing carefully to full izo, by spin and an-
tispin diffrence.
I say, full izo isn't neither spin nor an-
ti spin. The reason is the becase with a
full izo Poi 'lay' on hand.
It is like no Poi, only hand, it can't be
said wheather direction in relation to
hand Poi moves, but foreward or backward.
Looking carefully on longarm we can find
the same.
Long arm is only and only hand extension.
It is like having very long hand, you re-
member.
You really can't say if Poi moves same or
opposite direction in relation to hand.
Q: What it meens?
It meens that there is possible way to
change spin to anti-spin without those
'does he stop for a while' thingeries.
It meens that the spin serie and anti-
spin serie make a coincidently, circle:
Code:
full izo
/ \
/ \
spin anti-spin
\ /
\ /
long arm
And that meens a lot! Edit(I'm excited.)
love,
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
ARRRR!
529 posts
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Posted:
I think I understood most of that
Here is my antispin diagram showing the normal antispin vs. an isolated antispin. Like Richee says, a fully isolated antispin pattern becomes a circle. (think isolated buzzsaw). The deeply isolated antispin pictured below is close to the midway point between a normal antispin and a fully isolated antispin.
Non-Https Image Link
I would submit one further antispin variation, the antispin-ellipse. I've been playing with these recently after spinning with Rovo.
Non-Https Image Link
Your hands shoot out to lock-outs at the tips and dart back in for the cross. It feels pretty weird at first.
I think I understood most of that
Here is my antispin diagram showing the normal antispin vs. an isolated antispin. Like Richee says, a fully isolated antispin pattern becomes a circle. (think isolated buzzsaw). The deeply isolated antispin pictured below is close to the midway point between a normal antispin and a fully isolated antispin.
Non-Https Image Link
I would submit one further antispin variation, the antispin-ellipse. I've been playing with these recently after spinning with Rovo.
Non-Https Image Link
Your hands shoot out to lock-outs at the tips and dart back in for the cross. It feels pretty weird at first.
"My skin is singed but it heals my heart and with glowing pride I'll wear my scars." -Davey Havok
journeyman
55 posts
Location: Geographic Location
55 posts
Location: Geographic Location
Posted:
So simple and sweet those diagrams are!!!! (But damned difficult to isolate you arms that way!!)
I love spirograph poi!!
So simple and sweet those diagrams are!!!! (But damned difficult to isolate you arms that way!!)
I love spirograph poi!!
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
You hand on ellipse move on [Old link], which I will think about today.
The hand in mine ellipse move on line.
(not exact shape but like that)
110208,
:R
You hand on ellipse move on [Old link], which I will think about today.
The hand in mine ellipse move on line.
(not exact shape but like that)
110208,
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
Posted:
Here is another interesting way to think about it all:
Think of a line, rotating about a point. This line extends to infinity in either direction from the point. Take poi of length L, and place it somewhere on the line. All the poi really is is a line segment of length L, with a center point, 2 end points (handle and head) and intermediate points connecting it all. If you slide said poi along said line you get all of the spins talked about in [Old link]:
phantom isolation (super isolation)
perfect isolation (head or point isolation)
isolation (unit-circle isolation)
static spin
extension of any length
In fact, this is a gradient of possible relationships your poi can have with a center of rotation (CoR).
Given the static length of poi L, you end up with different proportional relationships between L and the distance of the poi from the CoR. As far as what is physically possible, well that is limited by the (great) sphere Richee talked about. Of course since this sphere is radius = arm_length + poi_length, it scales smaller if you shorten your poi. If you shorten your poi (since you can't lengthen your arm), the proportion of poi length L to distance from CoR can grow larger, relatively speaking... This is fairly trivial with the basics, but yields interesting things after some major extrapolation.
Now that we have this simple system spinning around a CoR, take that CoR, and set it to moving around a path. This path is limited in that its farthest extent must be the radius of the great sphere minus the length of poi L. In other words: however crazy your path gets, it can't get any farther from your arm than your hand can stretch. So now we have a set of more complex systems that deal with 2 CoRs.
The path that we usually use for various flowers and unit-circle spinning is a circle. So you have a CoR for this circular path, and you have a CoR for the poi itself. The poi CoR IS the thing that is spinning around the second CoR. In order to have same-spin or anti-spin you need to have (at least) 2 CoRs relating to each other. Foils and petals arise in flowers due to a ratio of the different rates of rotation around the related CoRs. For instance you might have a ratio of 5 poi rotations to 1 hand rotation (in this case the hand happens to be at the same point as the second CoR). 5 to 1 same-spin makes 4 petals. So an equation that describes the number of petals/foils a flower will have is:
(rotation about CoR 1) - (rotation about CoR 2) = (number of petals)In other words, subtract the arm circles from the number of poi circles to get the number of petals/foils. As an example of same spin we have 5:1, so (5)-(1)=4 (four-petal). As an example of antispin we have 2:1 (2)-(-1)=3 (tri-foil). With antispin you have a number negative to the other since they are spinning in opposite directions.
This holds as long as the ratio is greater than 1:1 or -1:1. If you are spinning 1 to (-)1 you are in the realm of the unit-circle and linear isolation, ie (phantom, full, standard) isolation, static, extension, cateyes, ellipses, etc. For instance -1:1 is either a cateye (1-beat antispin ellipse) or some form of linear isolation.
Disclaimer for this next bit:
Depending on the vantage point (and therefor coordinate system) from which you view this system you will describe it in different ways... In other words, relativity aplies to poi!
So, I can describe something in a particular way that differs with another person's description and we can both be right. The way to unify these differing descriptions is to figure out what vantage points (and coordinate spaces) they where taken in and figure out how these to vantages relate.
This is where I disagree slightly with Richee (read take a different vantage point):
The way I see it if you are doing a circle with your arm but not rotating the poi at all, then it is hanging straight down, ie you are circling a Gilligan.
"I say, full izo isn't neither spin nor an-
ti spin. The reason is the becase with a
full izo Poi 'lay' on hand."
I disagree. Full iso only has on CoR (both possile CoR are at the same point. It has no petals/foils, but the relation ship of hand relative to CoR dictates a certain direction of spin. So does the local relationship of poi head relative to handle (the line segment, not the whole line). Both of these relationships are spinning the same way. If the poi head:handle where spinning opposite the CoR:hand in split-time then you get a horizontal expanded linear isolation
"Looking carefully on longarm we can find
the same."
I also disagree. Longarm/extension is same direction of spin for the same reason as above. The timing relationship between full iso and extension of diameter 2x poi length L is off by 180 degrees. Just like the timing of an unit-circle iso and unit-circle extension are off by 180 degrees. You just slide the line segment along the line, and see that it is the same relationship. This is illustrated by a hybrid, hands-same time poi split-time. If you could maintain a full iso then you could hybrid that with an extension 2x poi L. To clarify: iso is same-direction split-time, extension is same-direction same-time. If you do opposite-direction same-time you get this:
"Long arm is only and only hand extension.
It is like having very long hand, you re-
member."
I agree with this as one point of view. They are spinning in concentric circles (not to be confused with Rev's improper use of the term to mean compound circles a few years back) in the same-direction same-time. So they can be viewed as one long line. The important point is that you can change one and not the other. You can't just pick an arbitrary point in an arm bone and start spinning and antispin flower about it... unless you break the bone cleanly. :P However, you can start spinning the poi or arm differently independent of each other. For that matter you could reach up with your other hand and grab a point on the poi tether, and start spinning from there in a different timing and/or direction... or snag a point with your other poi like Bluecat does.
"You really can't say if Poi moves same or
opposite direction in relation to hand."
From my chosen vantage point, I disagree, as my previous points imply. I understand where Richee is coming from on a lot of this though.
Difference of vantage aside, this is a really cool idea that is brewing!
MT Beer:
If you take the idea of using multiple CoRs to define flowers, then your hand doesn't have to stay at the CoR. This is illustraighted by your isolated antispin. There is a point of rotation that is still tracing a circle but it isn't the head or handle. The flip side of this is extending your hand in an antispin path rather than iso. If you can put these 2 things together thaen you indeed get a hybrid antispin flower.
Also something interesting for staff, sticks, clubs, etc: If you look at MT's diagram for regular antispin and imagine the handle where the head is and the head where the handle is then your hand does antispin and the head makes a circle.
Finally, I find that I do the ellipse flower in same-spin in a sense: in terms of the order in wich my hands shoot out to the corners of the cross. I was showing Zan and Rovo this at Burning Man 07. I don't remember if you and I jammed on it. I find that to antispin the order of the cross I need an extra rotation, or it easily collapses into a regular antispin. Are you guys getting clean antispin direction?
Also, are you coming out to Fire Drums?!!
Few that was a lot of typing!
-Alien Jon
Here is another interesting way to think about it all:
Think of a line, rotating about a point. This line extends to infinity in either direction from the point. Take poi of length L, and place it somewhere on the line. All the poi really is is a line segment of length L, with a center point, 2 end points (handle and head) and intermediate points connecting it all. If you slide said poi along said line you get all of the spins talked about in [Old link]:
phantom isolation (super isolation)
perfect isolation (head or point isolation)
isolation (unit-circle isolation)
static spin
extension of any length
In fact, this is a gradient of possible relationships your poi can have with a center of rotation (CoR).
Given the static length of poi L, you end up with different proportional relationships between L and the distance of the poi from the CoR. As far as what is physically possible, well that is limited by the (great) sphere Richee talked about. Of course since this sphere is radius = arm_length + poi_length, it scales smaller if you shorten your poi. If you shorten your poi (since you can't lengthen your arm), the proportion of poi length L to distance from CoR can grow larger, relatively speaking... This is fairly trivial with the basics, but yields interesting things after some major extrapolation.
Now that we have this simple system spinning around a CoR, take that CoR, and set it to moving around a path. This path is limited in that its farthest extent must be the radius of the great sphere minus the length of poi L. In other words: however crazy your path gets, it can't get any farther from your arm than your hand can stretch. So now we have a set of more complex systems that deal with 2 CoRs.
The path that we usually use for various flowers and unit-circle spinning is a circle. So you have a CoR for this circular path, and you have a CoR for the poi itself. The poi CoR IS the thing that is spinning around the second CoR. In order to have same-spin or anti-spin you need to have (at least) 2 CoRs relating to each other. Foils and petals arise in flowers due to a ratio of the different rates of rotation around the related CoRs. For instance you might have a ratio of 5 poi rotations to 1 hand rotation (in this case the hand happens to be at the same point as the second CoR). 5 to 1 same-spin makes 4 petals. So an equation that describes the number of petals/foils a flower will have is:
(rotation about CoR 1) - (rotation about CoR 2) = (number of petals)In other words, subtract the arm circles from the number of poi circles to get the number of petals/foils. As an example of same spin we have 5:1, so (5)-(1)=4 (four-petal). As an example of antispin we have 2:1 (2)-(-1)=3 (tri-foil). With antispin you have a number negative to the other since they are spinning in opposite directions.
This holds as long as the ratio is greater than 1:1 or -1:1. If you are spinning 1 to (-)1 you are in the realm of the unit-circle and linear isolation, ie (phantom, full, standard) isolation, static, extension, cateyes, ellipses, etc. For instance -1:1 is either a cateye (1-beat antispin ellipse) or some form of linear isolation.
Disclaimer for this next bit:
Depending on the vantage point (and therefor coordinate system) from which you view this system you will describe it in different ways... In other words, relativity aplies to poi!
So, I can describe something in a particular way that differs with another person's description and we can both be right. The way to unify these differing descriptions is to figure out what vantage points (and coordinate spaces) they where taken in and figure out how these to vantages relate.This is where I disagree slightly with Richee (read take a different vantage point):
The way I see it if you are doing a circle with your arm but not rotating the poi at all, then it is hanging straight down, ie you are circling a Gilligan.
"I say, full izo isn't neither spin nor an-
ti spin. The reason is the becase with a
full izo Poi 'lay' on hand."
I disagree. Full iso only has on CoR (both possile CoR are at the same point. It has no petals/foils, but the relation ship of hand relative to CoR dictates a certain direction of spin. So does the local relationship of poi head relative to handle (the line segment, not the whole line). Both of these relationships are spinning the same way. If the poi head:handle where spinning opposite the CoR:hand in split-time then you get a horizontal expanded linear isolation
"Looking carefully on longarm we can find
the same."
I also disagree. Longarm/extension is same direction of spin for the same reason as above. The timing relationship between full iso and extension of diameter 2x poi length L is off by 180 degrees. Just like the timing of an unit-circle iso and unit-circle extension are off by 180 degrees. You just slide the line segment along the line, and see that it is the same relationship. This is illustrated by a hybrid, hands-same time poi split-time. If you could maintain a full iso then you could hybrid that with an extension 2x poi L. To clarify: iso is same-direction split-time, extension is same-direction same-time. If you do opposite-direction same-time you get this:
"Long arm is only and only hand extension.
It is like having very long hand, you re-
member."
I agree with this as one point of view. They are spinning in concentric circles (not to be confused with Rev's improper use of the term to mean compound circles a few years back) in the same-direction same-time. So they can be viewed as one long line. The important point is that you can change one and not the other. You can't just pick an arbitrary point in an arm bone and start spinning and antispin flower about it... unless you break the bone cleanly. :P However, you can start spinning the poi or arm differently independent of each other. For that matter you could reach up with your other hand and grab a point on the poi tether, and start spinning from there in a different timing and/or direction... or snag a point with your other poi like Bluecat does.
"You really can't say if Poi moves same or
opposite direction in relation to hand."
From my chosen vantage point, I disagree, as my previous points imply. I understand where Richee is coming from on a lot of this though.
Difference of vantage aside, this is a really cool idea that is brewing!
MT Beer:
If you take the idea of using multiple CoRs to define flowers, then your hand doesn't have to stay at the CoR. This is illustraighted by your isolated antispin. There is a point of rotation that is still tracing a circle but it isn't the head or handle. The flip side of this is extending your hand in an antispin path rather than iso. If you can put these 2 things together thaen you indeed get a hybrid antispin flower.
Also something interesting for staff, sticks, clubs, etc: If you look at MT's diagram for regular antispin and imagine the handle where the head is and the head where the handle is then your hand does antispin and the head makes a circle.
Finally, I find that I do the ellipse flower in same-spin in a sense: in terms of the order in wich my hands shoot out to the corners of the cross. I was showing Zan and Rovo this at Burning Man 07. I don't remember if you and I jammed on it. I find that to antispin the order of the cross I need an extra rotation, or it easily collapses into a regular antispin. Are you guys getting clean antispin direction?
Also, are you coming out to Fire Drums?!!
Few that was a lot of typing!
-Alien Jon
+Alien Jon
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Interesting stuff guys.
Keep it coming.
*thinks about it all*
Interesting stuff guys.
Keep it coming.
*thinks about it all*
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
BRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic
Posted:
Do not forget throwing(!).
Think midCoR.
This need more description cause I don't get that.
Can you decipher this [Old link]?
This remind me this move:
Hand Pendulum + Poi circle || Hand Pendulum + Poi Pendulum || Hand circle + Poi Pendulum (?)
I disagree, because this still do not deny previous statement. You need at least two
directions.
The last sentence is too much crypted. Can you explain better?
I also disagree. Cause I don't got that, but I like your concept.
MORE PICTURE!!
ROB!
Personaly I like the word 'vantage' even I don't understand
and second this only substitute the name.
Show..
I like them..only.
-------------------------
I'm not doing AS cross-overs, but clean AS reel.
Fire Drums link?
smile,
:R
Written by:
As far as what is physically possible, well that is limited by the (great) sphere..
Do not forget throwing(!).
Written by:
Foils and petals arise in flowers due to a ratio of the different rates of rotation around the related CoRs.
Think midCoR.
Written by:
(rotation about CoR 1) - (rotation about CoR 2) = (number of petals)
This need more description cause I don't get that.
Can you decipher this [Old link]?
Written by:
The way I see it if you are doing a circle with your arm but not rotating the poi at all, then it is hanging straight down, ie you are circling a Gilligan.
This remind me this move:
Hand Pendulum + Poi circle || Hand Pendulum + Poi Pendulum || Hand circle + Poi Pendulum (?)
Written by:
I disagree. Full iso only has on CoR (both possile CoR are at the same point. It has no petals/foils, but the relation ship of hand relative to CoR dictates a certain direction of spin. So does the local relationship of poi head relative to handle (the line segment, not the whole line). Both of these relationships are spinning the same way.If the poi head:handle where spinning opposite the CoR:hand in split-time then you get a horizontal expanded linear isolation.
I disagree, because this still do not deny previous statement. You need at least two
directions.
Written by:
The last sentence is too much crypted. Can you explain better?
Written by:
I also disagree. Longarm/extension is same direction of spin for the same reason as above. The timing relationship between full iso and extension of diameter 2x poi length L is off by 180 degrees. Just like the timing of an unit-circle iso and unit-circle extension are off by 180 degrees.
I also disagree. Cause I don't got that, but I like your concept.
MORE PICTURE!!
Written by:
.. or snag a point with your other poi like Bluecat does.
ROB!
Written by:
From my chosen vantage point, I disagree, as my previous points imply. I understand where Richee is coming from on a lot of this though.
Personaly I like the word 'vantage' even I don't understand
and second this only substitute the name.
Written by:
Hybrid antispin flower..
Show..
Written by:
MT's diagrams
I like them..only.
-------------------------
I'm not doing AS cross-overs, but clean AS reel.
Fire Drums link?
smile,
:R
POI THEO(R)IST
GOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
Posted:
Firedrums link:
https://www.firedrums.org/
Yep. I need to sit down and spend some time rendering pictures and more simulations in 3d studiomax to illustrate what I'm trying to say!
More latter, but hopefully I'll have some pictures to go with it.
-Alien Jon
Firedrums link:
https://www.firedrums.org/
Yep. I need to sit down and spend some time rendering pictures and more simulations in 3d studiomax to illustrate what I'm trying to say!
More latter, but hopefully I'll have some pictures to go with it.
-Alien Jon
+Alien Jon
SILVER Member
Resident Demolitions Expert
103 posts
Location: San Francisco, Ca, USA
Resident Demolitions Expert
103 posts
Location: San Francisco, Ca, USA
Posted:
there are a number of patterns that are equally spin and antispin, pendulums extentions and isolations.
this is because there are 2 ways to approach the point of equally spin and antispin.
you can remove motion, or you can remove arc.
if you remove motion....through number of beats, from either the spin direction, or the antispin direction, the point where you cant tell if its spin or antispin is a full head isolation,
if you remove arc, or curvature of the pattern, you extend, longer and longer until you have a linear pattern, in which the head doesnt have a rotation (visible to the audience) so as you straighten the pattern it becomes equally spin and antispin.
this means that there are two points in between spin and antispin, head/linear isolation, or linear extention...in fact, a full isolation is a circular extention, around the poi head.....so extention and isolation exist between spin and antispin
is that what you were saying richee?
if so, then yes, i agree completely.
there are a number of patterns that are equally spin and antispin, pendulums extentions and isolations.
this is because there are 2 ways to approach the point of equally spin and antispin.
you can remove motion, or you can remove arc.
if you remove motion....through number of beats, from either the spin direction, or the antispin direction, the point where you cant tell if its spin or antispin is a full head isolation,
if you remove arc, or curvature of the pattern, you extend, longer and longer until you have a linear pattern, in which the head doesnt have a rotation (visible to the audience) so as you straighten the pattern it becomes equally spin and antispin.
this means that there are two points in between spin and antispin, head/linear isolation, or linear extention...in fact, a full isolation is a circular extention, around the poi head.....so extention and isolation exist between spin and antispin
is that what you were saying richee?
if so, then yes, i agree completely.
SILVER Member
journeyman
75 posts
Location: wisconsin, USA
journeyman
75 posts
Location: wisconsin, USA
Posted:
my head is going to explode
my head is going to explode
I've never seen a supernova blow up, but if it's anything like my old chevy nova it'll light up the night sky!
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