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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:I believe in Fate from the point of view that I feel I'm at where I'm supposed to be and I do feel a guiding hand in my life that makes things happen and pushes me to where I'm supposed to be. There just loads of things that happen that can't be coincidence that may seem insignificant but always come back to mean s loads. (difficult to explain sorry...)

But I also feel that I have free will and choice to do whatever I want, that my future is not written out in front of me.

My question is...do these 2 ideas contradict each other. Can destiny and free choice exist together at once?

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:Sure it can, but only if you believe that fate is more of a guideline and not a certainty.

The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive


Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:But but but, what if your fate is a fuzzy fate (as in fuzzy logic), such as the achievement of your life's dream, or the attainment of happiness etc etc.

You are welcome to exercise your free will in what you decide is your life's dream, or how to achieve happiness, and free to choose the path that takes you there.

However, you are simply fated to have that goal achieved at some point in the future?

Despite the fact that it is all because of your choices and actions?

(Lets see what people think of this concept of fate).

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Really interesting thread! Great to read through some intriguing ideas.

Fuzzy Fate - I like it, lots!

Myself, I'm not sure what I believe as there's a few theories that appeal to me and I'm fine with going along with a few possibilities and not really believing one thing.

Generally I don't think everything is preordained, but every Now is loaded with potential to lead to a vast number of sucessive Nows and we have the power to influence and drive from one Now to the next, forming the sucession of Nows that make up our life.

I use the term Now as past, present and future as does time exist? There's a physicis book out there that tries to prove that time doesn't have to exist, and can be removed from all physics equations. Therefore all of 'time' can exist in one Now moment, and our current status of Now leads to another through probability of things occuring. Funnily enough this idea also appears in Conversations with God, Book 2.

Add to this the fact that all beings are connected by energy, call it spiritual or bioenergy or whatever, and it's easy to see that we are potentially linked to our future and past selves at all times, because all exist in the same time - Now. Then we can see how coincidences become meaningful as the concious experiences are potentially the result of subconcious, spiritual or energy communications between ourselves in every Now, and other people in their every Now.

Hmmmm, gotta go and think about this one a bit more!


The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Gooooood thread.

Everyone is saying groovy things.
doms gone nuts

In summary:
Somethings you do control
Somethings you don't control,
but how you choose to respond to them you do control.

Oh and theres another book that should be in this conversation, I'm surprised it hasn't come up....
A quote:
"Its a book that says the same thing almost all the other books in the world say", continued the old man. "It describes peoples inability to choose their own destinies. And ends up saying that everyone believes the worlds greatest lie."
"Whats the world's greatest lie?" the boy asked, completely surprised.
"It's this: that at a certain point in our lives, we loose control of whats happening to us, and our lives become controlled by fate. That's the worlds greatest lie."

DeepSoulSheep can a recommend that you read the alchemist (paulo Coelho), its all about your question.

And you might want to spend an afternoon reading up on the basics of all the major religions/spiritual beliefs. from point of view of believers and non-believers.
Paying special attention to buddhism and taoism.
I can give you some good links.

Do you ever get a feeling of deja Vu?
Naah, I've seen it all before


Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Funny you say that Glass, the reason why I started this thread was that the previous day I had a conversation with a friend and was struggling to persuade him that free will and fate do exist together.

On friday I found a copy of the Alchemist on the coffee table that I had pursuaded my friend to buy and read. I read the prologue and realised that it had provided the basis for my beliefs and covered exactly what I had been trying to convince my friend of. I have pointed him in the direction of the book now and hopefully it will explain what I was trying to say better than I could.

I'm also going to read it again because a lot has happened lately that has confused me and I'm not sure I'm heading the same direction I thought I was going last week. I don't think it's a coincidence that
- I had a lot of faith in that direction because of the Alchemist
- I had forgotten what the book was about
- I found a copy of it the other day.
- You're telling me to read it.

I'd be interested in the links on you talk of too.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lightning...:
What does it mean if there is such a Creator or Controller? Why is this entity trying to deceive us? Such a cosmological view implies a malevolance and deviance on the part of the Creator/Controller that I'm not so sure I'm happy to accept. Hmm, that's the only kind of creator I'd accept... one that allows free will (such as it is). Any other kind of creator is far too petty for my liking, constantly meddling with their creation out of... what? A quest for perfection (thus proving them imperfect), vindictiveness or just boredom?

If I was a creator I would set the Universe in motion and then sit back and watch the wonder of it unfolding...

"Moo," said the happy cow.


Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lightning...:
Let's go back to quantum mechanics for a sec. Shroediger (sp?) (some dead physicist) once said that on a subatomic scale, all possibilties HAVE occurred until an observer witnesses an actual outcome.True but the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics (observers forcing choices to occur) is only one interpretation out of many, all of which explain things in different ways without any need for an observer to intervene.

Claiming an oberserver is needed leads to Wheeler's Paradox... when the scientist opens the box to look at the cat he then becomes part of the system which includes the whole lab. For people outside the lab until they open the lab door the inside of the lab is both scientist+dead cat and scientist+live cat. And then the people outside the whole building won't know what happened inside until they enter the building, and so on and so on to infinity...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:The notion of a "fuzzy fate" seems cool.

I guess I am too much of a control freak to not want to be in control of my own destiny rather than giving up that responsability to an external force.

Maybe certain things have a tendency to happen, but these things are not set in stone?



Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Ok since some people may have missed my post or forgotten some of it...

Fate = Hard determinism
Free Will = Soft determinism

Hard determinism means that any given moment happens because it HAS to happen, there is NO other possibility..

Soft determinism means that any given moment happens because it is the MOST PROBABLE of actions..

So basically to say that fate rules us all is absurd.. Yes we all work according to fundamental laws.. Yes, we can find laws that govern most things in existence.. No these laws are not absolute... Think of it like a bell curve.. The curve may be tall and skinny from lots of experiments proving something or another, but that does not mean that it is an absolute.. It is still loose.. Take gravity for example.. Most people believe that gravity is 9.81m/s(squared), but in fact if you measure gravity in several different places in town, you will get different readings.. 9.805, 9.812, etc.. these are not from error either.. We learned in physics (because we got one of those cool ass gravity scales for a day) that different topographical features affect gravity.. Anyone who has lived in the mountains wshould know that in the mountains gravity is about 9.7(something), water takes longer to boil, stuff in general is different.. point being: There is not hard determinism even in science.

To claim that God pre-ordained everything is absurd too, since there would be no free will if God already knows what you are going to do. This is why most people are hesitant to rule out fate, but that is from their conception of god as a person as opposed to god as being the process, the energy if you will that is making every instant what it is..

Soft determinism just says that there are other possibilities and that they might happen.. It doesn't mean that there are no rules.. It just means that sometime there are exceptions to the rule.. to go back to the bell curve concept, if things were as 'fate',then there would be no bell curve. It would be this value as a solution EVERY time..

I think people misunderstand what is meant by free will.. It's kind of like the river example.. You are in the river.. That will never change, but where you are in the river is up to you.. If you choose to go with the current, against the current, or even nothing at all, then you still choose..

I don't mean to change topics, but someone I know had some Yogi tea and on the package it said:
"You are not a human having a spiritual experience, you are a spirit having a human experience.." or something to that effect.. thought I'd share that too..

More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown


Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Well, if we're repeating ourselves

I'd like to point out again that just because you WILL make a particular choice, it doesn't mean you haven't MADE that choice.

If the universe is deterministic then nothing is truly random, but what is truly random anyway?

Most of the time when we say 'random' we just mean 'too complex for us to predict with our current abilities'.

Decisions you make are determined by your past experiences, your state of mind and environment when you make that decision blahblahblah

If you re-run the exact same roulette wheel spin 1000 times, then you'll get the same number.

If you re-run the same decision 1000 times (impossible of course, given tiny changes in environment and past experience) then you'd get the same answer.

But it doesn't make that answer any less important.

Your decisions aren't determined by fate, they are part of fate.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

Location: Whitehorse, Yukon
Member Since: 1st May 2003
Total posts: 6
Posted:I know the answer to this one but it will be difficult to describe.
First of all time is not linear it too is curved, the horizon of that curvature is the big bang. That is why Steven Hawking says "asking what happened before the big bang is like asking what happens a mile north of the north pole", the question does not make sense. The "Fate vs Free-will" question also does not make sense for at the core of it is the idea that time is linear and flows in one direction, and this simply is not the case.
There is karma, which a way of stating how one thing is connected to another, and this means that you are the victim of both the karma around you and your own personal karma. You have intent also, and with that intent you can influence the karma, so your personal power directly influences how much free will you have. Both are true there is no conflict. There is another point of view which is more fundamental than this one, but it can only be experienced directly, and no words could ever do it justice.

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