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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I believe in Fate from the point of view that I feel I'm at where I'm supposed to be and I do feel a guiding hand in my life that makes things happen and pushes me to where I'm supposed to be. There just loads of things that happen that can't be coincidence that may seem insignificant but always come back to mean s loads. (difficult to explain sorry...)

But I also feel that I have free will and choice to do whatever I want, that my future is not written out in front of me.

My question is...do these 2 ideas contradict each other. Can destiny and free choice exist together at once?


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Taniwha


member
Location: Aotearoa

Total posts: 138
Posted:Yea man. U choose your own fate.

Its all just smoke and mirrors

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James B


member
Location: Chippenham, Wiltshire. England

Total posts: 44
Posted:There are things in life that you can stop from happening. That is Fate. If you learn by them that is free will and Fate will draw a new path. They work togeather, there is a balance, find that balance and you will be fine.

Speak softly and carry a big stick, you will go far!

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Trippie Hippie
BRONZE Member since May 2002

Trippie Hippie

old hand
Location: Bewildered state of nothingnes...

Total posts: 733
Posted:quote:Originally posted by DeepSoulSheep:

But I also feel that I have free will and choice to do whatever I want, that my future is not written out in front of me.

My question is...do these 2 ideas contradict each other. Can destiny and free choice exist together at once? If they can exist together at once, then surly every choice that you make through 'free choice' has actually already been made for you
So there for, your life is already mapped out and no matter what you do, there is nothing that you can do to change it.
Even if you make a conscious decision to change your mind at the last minute about every decision you make from this day forward, it is fate, you were destined to do so, so in reality you haven't changed a thing
I'm going to leave it there, my head is starting to hurt.
Its one of those questions, Like holding a mirror up infront of another mirror and trying to work out where it ends!!!!!! *Ouch, my head!!!!*
LOL
Taking it easy
Trippy

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Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone.
High Class Hippy No:1
N.E.W.B. Agent #012
"I Got Soul"
Non-Https Image Link



Trippie Hippie- Monty Dons secret love child

Fly like a mouse, run like a pillow, be the small book case.

"Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone".

Because dressing up is fun.

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:Paradox!! We do have Free Will. The decisions we make, the paths we take, guide our destiny.Our destiny is mapped out from the beginning of time by God, the Universe, Fate.
How can both of these be true? Simple.

quote: "Marty, you're not thinking fourth-dimensionally!" Doc said. YOU are GOD.


Magnus... pay it forward

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Sorry Trippy, but that's why I was asking.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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flowingchalice
BRONZE Member since Jul 2002

flowingchalice

member
Location: Leicester, uk

Total posts: 180
Posted:thanx Magnus.

What really gets me is Dja vu. I mean sometimes i feel like after an event has happened i've remembered it from a past perspective before it took place, then i'm like... why didn't i remember that happening before it happened? doh.

Sometimes the future feels scarily familiar

As for fate/free will, i dunno... i think somewhere we are above and beyond both of these things and they are not necessary. But we're still in this dimension, with these lovely bods and lashings of karma to amuse ourselves with They both exist on that level I think Ok, Triippy... whatever you got to stop the ouching...hand it over sunshine


Who looks outside dreams; who looks inside wakes C G Jung

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falloutboy
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...

Total posts: 433
Posted:Our choices in life are based primarily on our past, and who we've become as a result of our past right? Well, what if there was a being (God perhaps) who knew each of us so intimately that they were able to predict our future choices. Knowing the future decisions of all living beings, then wouldn't that allow the future be known/written, whilst also still allowing us to have free-will?

I find Deja-vu really interesting too! What if we once did have free-will but now only have the illusion of it? What if we're just stuck following the same old script we wrote for ourselves the first time? What if Deja-vu is a moment of clarity, not confusion??

Has anyone seen the film 'Donnie Darko'? Raises some great issues regarding free-will vs. predestination.
Oh, and there's an evil 6ft tall bunny-rabbit too. Everyone loves those.


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:Deja vu is easy... that's when they change something in the Matrix.

Magnus... pay it forward

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Well, you do make decisions and choices.

It can also easily be argued that the choices you make are essentially pre-determined. In other words you would always make that same decision if the exact same situation was re-run a 1000 times.

That doesn't mean you're not making the decision each time though. And to say 'it doesn't matter what you do then?' is missing the point. The point is that whatever you DO do, that was the thing you always WERE going to do.

I reckon anyway...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Daz


member
Location: Exmouth, England

Total posts: 47
Posted:Fate and Free Will can, and do, co exist together.
In a nutshell: As we go along or merry way in our lives things happen to us for a reason. Like small coincidences. These situations are Fate. Thats when Free Will takes over. Its up to us how we react to these situations that will influence how are lives will then proceed. This will carry on and on. Its as though we are walking down a path and Fate puts a junction in front of us. Our Free Will will then decide which path we choose.
In my experience, ALL situations (wether good or bad) have happened to us for a reason. Its up to us how we react to them that will take us forward. On deciding how to react, natural intuition is ALWAYS the best guide.
An interesting book on this subject is THE CELESTINE PROPHESIES. The point that it tries to get across is very interesting and I've found that everyone can take something away from it.


What is this life if full of care, we have no time to stand and stare.

Come alive!

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:That's something I never thought of before Simian, I like that idea...

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I have a scientific/analytical point of view about the whole thing.

If everything is pre-ordained to appear to be chance, as long as the illusion is perfect, there would be no way to tell the difference.

If I flip a coin 100 times and G-d (or Fortuna or whatever diety or lack thereof) has already preordained which flips will be heads and which flips will be tails, as long as it appears random, I have no way of telling whether it's fate or chance.

Ergo, there is no way to conclusively tell whether we have free will or are a bunch of cogs in a cosmic machine. And so, it's best to just keep going as if we didn't care.

Now, here is an interesting discussion from a quantum mechanical point of view:

At first, when quantum mechanics was being worked out, it seemed as if every particle was a little solid ball with a precise position, mass, and velocity. Therefore, by that theory, if the positions and velocities of all the particles in a system were known at one point in time, it would be possible to extrapolate all the positions and velocities of all those particles in that system at any other given point in time.

Thus, by that theory, if it could be possible to record the position and velocity of all the particles in the universe at any given time, we could predict the position of all those particles in the universe at all other times and therefore, there would be no free will, just fate.

But G-d is trickier than that. It turns out that subatomic particles aren't just little solid spheres. They have wavelengths and they scatter and their behavior is not predictable! Electrons aren't little dots, but are actually best described as probability functions. And particles sometimes randomly pop into existence and out of existence and all sorts of crazy stuff we never imagined. Furthermore, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that it is impossible to know both a particle's position and velocity to infinite accuracy because in measuring one, you must alter the other.

This doesn't mean that the universe is necessarily a chaotic place, but it does mean that if it is a deterministic machine, the determinism behind it must be much more subtle than we had imagined.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Trippie Hippie
BRONZE Member since May 2002

Trippie Hippie

old hand
Location: Bewildered state of nothingnes...

Total posts: 733
Posted:Mike, Whats it like to have a brain that actually works????
After reading that, i think you've given me a relapse!!!! Either that or my head just imploded Hehe
LOL
Taking it easy
Trippy

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Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone.
High Class Hippy No:1
N.E.W.B. Agent #012
"I Got Soul"
Non-Https Image Link



Trippie Hippie- Monty Dons secret love child

Fly like a mouse, run like a pillow, be the small book case.

"Last night i met some pixies and we danced around a stone".

Because dressing up is fun.

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Magnus


member
Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:Rock on, Mike.

I think you are absolutely right, up to a point. I think we CAN tell the difference, by exploring the spiritual aspects of existence. But up to that point, the illusion is complete.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Narr


Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step

Total posts: 2568
Posted:okay now my head hurts from all that information, but this is my take on things:

i believe we are put here in each life to learn something new to better our spirital selves. we have different paths that lead to that learning, so as we go through life we choose how we get to our final fate.-hope that makes sence cos i confuse myself everytime i try to explain this.

as for deja vu, as freakyly cool it is, i use it as a tool to know im on the right path

take care
sophiexx


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:With regards to free will... did you know that in many situations your body reacts to things before your brain conscioussly knows about them? From here:

quote:A few years ago, Benjamin Libet conducted a series of experiments on the experience of choosing and deciding. While brain and nerve impulses were being monitored, subjects were asked to make some trivial choice e.g., to move a finger up or down and to report the moment of decision-making. What Libet found is that the nerve impulse from the brain to the finger was on its way before subjects reported having made the choice. Now, the difference is not much on the order of half a second but since nerve impulses propagate at finite maximum speeds, once the impulse to move the finger one way or the other is on the way, it appears that no later decision can derail it nor can the fingers movement depend upon the later decision.So is free will just something our brains make up anyway?


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:There is a radical school of thought that our 'consciousness' has no form of control or effect on it. We just watch the actions that we perform, then make up reasons why we did.

Thats going a bit far, but there is a large element of truth to it.

'A man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest'


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Thanks for the compliments, guys. If I can go on one really small tangent for a sec:

Suppose there is a diety who has set up the entire Universe to make it look as if there is no grand designer. The illusion makes it look like the Universe was formed in a Big Bang 18 billion years ago, flip a coin a million times and it will be heads about 500,000 of them, etc...

What does it mean if there is such a Creator or Controller? Why is this entity trying to deceive us? Such a cosmological view implies a malevolance and deviance on the part of the Creator/Controller that I'm not so sure I'm happy to accept.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:Mike - my brain hurts now - but thats givin me something to think about - thanks <edit> I don't belive in god or any other diety, I believe in engery and myself... so the following rant may make some sence - I hope anyway..<edit>

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

An interesting book on this subject is THE CELESTINE PROPHESIES. I totally agree with Daz.. The Celestine Prophecy totally changed my life a few years ago-- i taught me that everything happens for a reason, call it fate if you will, but it also points to the fact that you also have a huge responsiblity to act on the messages that you recive from life.. for example have you ever seen a person that you haven't seen for ages several times over the course of a few weeks, or see a stranger on multiple occasions that you actually notice them, the book says that they have a message for you, the next part of the puzzle so to speak. It is up to us to be open enough to recieve the intended information - it also helps to define character traits that oppress true and full learning in each life led and so much more. I believe in reincarnation so this sort of stuff really hits me deep. Anyway - whilst practising the lessons I learnt in the book years ago - I was really happy things in my life were going really well.. over the years, getting messy took over my life and I forgot the lessons. Recently I have felt like I've had a black cloud over my head, sunshine all around that I could enjoy - but right over my head - teeny black cloud.. I have not felt happy at the end of the day - deep down inside..call it dissatifaction or summat..

Now things that have been occuring recently have made me think about things, a few of you on this board who I have been sharing stuff with over the past few weeks (you know who you are guys - thanks) have slowly been feeding me messages - you may not know about it, but you've turned a switch. Things need to change, I need to change the inside switch from sad to happy, change the way I go about things.. - I know I can do it - done it befor coz lots of shitty stuff have sent me on a journey before.

So you talk about fate and free will.. for me fate are messages that lead to change and understanding, free will is how you interperate them and fate is weather you are able to listen to them or not - and that abilty depends on how much you have learnt and on what energy level you vibrate on.. for me its an ever enlarging spiral, you can carry on doing the same ciruit or open up a little..

This thread in a way is an example - fate for it being here (Thank you DSS) - free will for me to post a rant that has been building in me for months now.. they say that each action you perform affects someones life in some way or another.. DSS (and others) - you've just got me thinking again.. for which I am grateful.

Sorry for the long post - just needed to get it off my chest.. just read it back - makes no sence - but at least I feel lighter my ideas are out there... thanks..

[ 18. April 2003, 06:24: Message edited by: MisStix* ]


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:There's a real simple way to answer the question of free will.. I wish I could claim the credit, but credit is due to William James (circa 1860's)..

To say that there is no free will is to say that this world is deterministic.. Which is to say that at any given time the only outcome that could have happened is the one that did...

To say that there is free will, means that it is indeterminate... This is not to say that it cannot be predicted.. It just means that ther were other 'possible' outcomes to the situation...

For instance, when I leave school, I can either take 2nd street or Williams str.. To say that I chose 2nd str, because that is the only possible outcome in that situation is absurd.. If I were to back up time, it is just as likely that I would have taken Williams.. The option of william's was not ruled out until a decision was made.. thus williams str was not an impossibility until I made the choice to go 2nd str...

Determinism claims that there are only two values what will be, and imposibilities.. It claims that it must be either/or.. either it was destined to happen or it will never happen.. We by far know that this is not true.. Take the current situation with Iraq and such.. To say that those who are not for us, are against us is absurd.. one does not necessitate the other... There are other options.. I could remain neutral... That does not work in the determinist framework because neutral cannot be necessitated by one of the choices.. perhaps a poor choice of examples, but I'm not going to throw my ideal or James' ideal in entirety..

I choose to look forward, rather then reverse.. The determinist will always look back and say that -HAD- to happen.. It was the only case.. well, by looking back I'm sure it appears that way.. afterall that is what happened.. but I have yet to see how anything that has happened, -had- to happen... Nor do I rule out the fact that there are any other possbilities to what happened..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Wow, nice thread guys...

And thank you Magnus!!

YOU are GOD.

Exactly!! I think the deviation between free will and destiny is that a person may have a wonderful destiny, to lead the people, or to save the world, but if they do not listen to the messages that 'fate' gives us, does not look a litlle deeper for the reason certain things happen, then they won't acheive this destiny. Kind of like how you could look around at a normal person, who leads a status quo life, and wonder if they've ever looked around and wondered what it was really all about. But to go back to the God thing, it is so true, and my life changed significantly once I took this to heart..Kind of like Leary's idea's of 'Self Determination', same thing. You control your life, how people react to you, if you get the things you want, if good things or bad things happen to you, etc etc..There are some things that are understandably out of our control, but so much in anyone's life can be changed for the better once they think of themselves in a god-like aspect. This doesn't mean tear down your deities(whichever god you pray to), but all 'gods' and reference thereto point to one thing..We were made in an image of god.

I have a theory on deja-vu too..I think deja-vu happens most when we stand at large crossroads in our lives..Like we could move closer to our destiny or turn our back on it..It's always happened to me like that anyways..


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I've always thought of the relationship like this:

Fate is a fast-moving river. You are in a raft. You float along through life, bobbing up and down, twisting and turning through the swirling currents that push you relentlessly onward. You are powerless to avoid rocks, turns, hydraulics, and so on, Fate dictates what pitfalls you collide with or avoid.

But wait! You find a paddle! It has the words Free Will carved into the handle. Now you can affect your course and guide your raft to a safer and more comfortable ride.

Of course, some people don't rely on their paddle. For one reason or another, they choose to trust their fortune to the swift-moving water.



Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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iop


member
Location: London

Total posts: 35
Posted:well i have another analogy


basically fate is the the hand you are given and freewill is how you play your hand!!!!!!!


sorry if someone has already said this its just that this thread is too long to read and I'm lazy


If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving isn't for you!

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ShyFysh
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

ShyFysh

member
Location: Normal, Illinois, USA

Total posts: 19
Posted:Here's my opinion. We all choose what experiences we are going to have before we come into this life. That sort of accounts for the Fate part of life even though we had free will in choosing those experiences.

Once we are here, we don't remember what we set ourselves up for. We can affect our "predestined" experiences by using our free will.

An example: Someone chose to experince a debiltating disease when they came into life. The fact that they will get this disease is now Fate. It can't be changed. Free will comes into play by how they react to it and what courses of treatments or non-treatments determines how much this disease effects this person. It could be a terrible experience or it could be inspiring. It's up to that person.

Does that make any sense at all?

ShyFysh <*}}}}><


In the Eyes of the Goddess...All are Equal, All are Worthy ~Pa'u Zotah Zhaan

I honor the Divine within ~Rev Bem

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Daz


member
Location: Exmouth, England

Total posts: 47
Posted:MissStix, I'm glad that you got so much from The Celestine Prophesies. It truly is amazing. Now, I'm not some weak minded potential cult groupie, so I don't follow the first thing that has a convincing theory. What I got from the book was that it was a generally nice idea that would again be nice if everyone at least took notice of. I decided to experiment for myself and actually take notice of the coincidences and then act on them with pure intuition. Without a doubt, I could feel that the direction of life was picking up speed and going in a better, richer direction. Like I said, I'm no tree hugger but this new outlook on life really has surprised me. Plus, its nicer!

I also have a theory on reincarnation - what do you all reckon? First of all, you need to imagine a cross country race. A cross country race is 'x' distance long. The route is broken down into 'stages'. For anyone who knows anything about physical endurance feats you'll know that between the start and the finish of an event you have to set yourself mini targets. Thats effectively what the stages are on a cross country race. When you reach the end of the first stage you've achieved more than you had in the first step but you haven't reached the end of the race. The same that when you reach the second stage, you've achieved more than you had at the first stage - but - the race isn't over yet. In conclusion, when you cross the finish line you've achieved your goal because you passed through each of your stages, and ONLY because you ran all of them.

Our 'life' is made up of many 'lives'. Our first one is is the run from 'Start' to the end of 'Stage1'. Then we reincarnate in our second life to run from the beginning of 'Stage1' to 'Stage2'. After each life we carry the knowledge of our previous. We have to use this knowledge to make ourselves better, happier and on the right route to aim for our Final Finishing Line.

Hmmm, did I really just come out with all that?


What is this life if full of care, we have no time to stand and stare.

Come alive!

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Posted:Well put Mike.

Another way I like to think about it is from the perspective of what difference it makes to believe in pre-determinism (fate) or in self-determinism (free will).

On the one hand you have people who think that everything in the world happens for a reason and that you cant change anything because thats just the way it is...

On the other hand you have people who believe that you can have an effect on ANYTHING that happens (although you might not be able to push the moon out of orbit just by smoking bongs around the campfire at night, you might set up a chain of events which may lead to some monumental effect someplace down the line if you decide to pursue said idea - Chaos Theory).

I think that per-determinists use predeterminism as an excuse to be lazy, ie, I'm not going to bother changing, cuz it wont make any difference....

On the other hand, self-determinists have to admit that they can always have an effect on their lives or stuff happenning, and get up and do something about it, or at least, take some responsibility for outcomes.

So yeah, I guess thats where this was going. If you believe completely in Fate, you relieve yourself from any responsibility for what happens to you or your environment in the future.

Obviously things do happen which you cannot control but you can always affect how you recover from a nasty event...

Are you an observer or are you an actor?

woo!

Josh

[ 20. April 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: [Josh] ]


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by [Josh]:
Are you an observer or are you an actor?
Let's go back to quantum mechanics for a sec. Shroediger (sp?) (some dead physicist) once said that on a subatomic scale, all possibilties HAVE occurred until an observer witnesses an actual outcome.

From this he postulated a thought experiment: Suppose you have a particle that will decay and you put it in some instrument that will detect the decay of that particle. When the decay is detected, the machine will smash a vial of poison that will kill a cat that is locked in a small box (poor cat ).

He says that because the ultimate observation is to open up the box and see if the cat is dead, it is logical to conclude that until you open the box, because the particle is not yet observed, and thus, is both decayed and undecayed, the cat would actually be both dead and alive.

Now, the problem with this little scenario is that the machine that breaks the vial of poison is actually the observer, but it raises an interesting point: by being an observer, at least on a quantum mechanical scale, you are also an actor! The only way you can not be an actor is to not be an observer.

Very confusing, no?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Posted:Quantum mechanics is cool

Josh


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Jaeden
GOLD Member since Sep 2001

member
Location: Edmonton

Total posts: 220
Posted:nope, not realy.

I've read into this before, but can't bring enough detail to mind right now to make a meaningful post.


As for fate, I'm not sure if such a thing exists in the traditional sence. I do believe that we are being guided along our life-path however we are given the gift/curse that is free will. With this tool we can now fight and resist the path that has been laid out for us, we all intuitively know what to do and which path to take but free will allows for us to choose the other path.

(correct me if I'm wrong here)
Bhudists believe in reincarnation. The soul is put out into the physical world where through it's life experiances it grows and matures. After the physical vessle has perrished the soul would return to (wherever it is they wait for reincarnation). By combining these two views it could be said that Free Will is the basis for natural selection for the soul. The more one deviates from thier path, the less likely they are to be reincarnated. This would weed out the most impure souls from being introduced into the physical world where they can spread their impurities.

I was told by this fellow who had studied Bhudism, but not embraced it as his own, that they are experiancing a crisis. There is a finite number of souls to go arround. The earth is becoming overpopulated leading to more of the lesser spirits brought here. That is why the world is going to hell.


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:A predestined fate cannot exist with free will.

Raph


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