If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: OWD
where the majority of us in the modern west are concerned, meat production is an inneficient waste of land that could be better used to grow human-edible crops directly, cutting out the inefficient 'middle-man' (cow, pig etc)
Written by: dream
The problem as far as feeding people is not so much about a lack of food (there is still a global grain surplus - for example UK farmers currently produce 3.5million tonnes more grain than they can sell annually) as a lack of political will and the logistical problems of getting food to the most remote areas.
Written by: OWD
To me though, the fact that we in the west happily squander resources by insisting on unnecessarily gorging on animal flesh, whilst a large portion of humanity starve as families, in some way, contributes to the problem.
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Written by: Stone
Dave, if vegetariansm is a non-extreme diet firmly established by medical science to be healthy, then where do you get your Vitamin B12 from?
Written by: Stone
Humans cannot get all their nutritional requriements from plants or animals. Thats why we need a balanced diet that contains both plant and animal product.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: dream
As far as blaming meat eater for the worlds ills...Written by: OWD
where the majority of us in the modern west are concerned, meat production is an inneficient waste of land that could be better used to grow human-edible crops directly, cutting out the inefficient 'middle-man' (cow, pig etc)
Claims that no one in the world would be starving if everyone was vegan/vegie are rife among vegan/vegie's and organisations such as PETA/VIVA (I have good friends who work for both).Written by: dream
The problem as far as feeding people is not so much about a lack of food (there is still a global grain surplus - for example UK farmers currently produce 3.5million tonnes more grain than they can sell annually) as a lack of political will and the logistical problems of getting food to the most remote areas.Written by: OWD
To me though, the fact that we in the west happily squander resources by insisting on unnecessarily gorging on animal flesh, whilst a large portion of humanity starve as families, in some way, contributes to the problem.
So although no one need starve as there's enough food in the world to feed everyone, the problem is meat eaters. Which of course means that you aren't the problem, but other people are.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: Stone
Jeff, you said "Feeling victimised doesn't change whether or not your lifestyle causes unneccasery harm or not."
That’s crap. It’s not about feeling victimized, it’s about changing peoples attitudes. The guilt approach does not work.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
Dave, strictly speaking and by definition vegetarianism implies that you consume plants and not animal products.
Written by: Stone
Yeast does not naturally contain B12. This indicates to me that animals are part of a natural diet, and our bodies are designed for meat as well as plants. Like you need to eat about 2.5kg of spinach to get your daily requirement of iron compared to getting the iron from a few grams of meat.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
OWD, actually you're not a vegetarian, but a pescetarian (according to the article in Wikipedia)... excuse me, but anything else is misleading.
In my personal understanding a "vegetarian" feeds himself "vegetables" (+ fruits and nuts)... without adding animal products.
Written by: Wikipedia article on vegetarianism
Vegetarianism is the practice of not consuming the flesh of any animal (including poultry and fish), with or without also eschewing other animal derivatives, such as dairy products or eggs.
Written by:
I do not feel that proclaimed "guilt pattern" put on me, but there was an underlying morality that sounded through quite a few posts here and was articulating this. Now to reverse this and say: "IF you feel guilty, you have to look into yourself for the source of it" - to me is a implied mindfcuk... with all due respect.
Written by: onewheeldave
If I were in your postion, of, when being presented with clear facts in the context of a debate, finding that I was growing resentful of having a 'guilt-trip' inflicted upon me- I hope that, instead, I would look inside and examine why I was feeling that way.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
Where's the line?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: Stone
Jeff, while the "guilt approach" has had some success in changing public opinion, there are couple of differences here. Many people consider meat a natural part of the diet. The advertising by the Livestock associations is very good. We have different opinions on what is moral. I grew up a farm so I have a different moral opinion than someone who grew up in city.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
Dave, “B12 is generally found in all animal foods (except honey). The overwhelming consensus in the mainstream nutrition community, as well as among vegan health professionals, is that plant foods do not provide vitamin B12. (Luckily, vitamin B12 is made by bacterial fermentation such that no animal products are necessary to provide it.)
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: faithinfire
i still think my supplement argument should have a little consideration, wait, was it this thread?
Written by: faithinfire
i was searching for a word that wouldn't start a fight over, i went with harvest, apparently i was wrong
oops
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
Dave, it doesn’t necessarily follow that because someone is a vegan they contribute much less harm to the environment, than a meat eater.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Written by: OWD
Meat eaters kill animals plus far more plants than a vegan.
Therefore, by logic alone, meat eaters cause more harm than vegans.
Because, whatever harm a vegan causes by eating plants, meat eaters necessarily, by being responsible for more plant deaths, cause more harm.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to