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Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism.... Plants have feelings too

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Psyri
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK

Total posts: 1576
Posted:I would just like to mention out of general irritation that some veggie friends give me. They always ask how can I have a clean conscience because I eat meat? Uusally giving me a long lasting lecture also about how much healthier it is. I have no rpoblem with the healthy part. But I would like to inform you that plants have feelings too. If you have come across kirlian photography (aura photography) you can see strands coming from them. Well we know plants are alive of course but what about other tests that have been undergone? Plants react to the atmosphere around them eg music, smells, people talking.

Albeit they are a different form of life I just wish some veggies would stop taking the moral highground because I like meat.

All I can say is I appreciate every morsel of food that passes through my lips and I wonder where it came from and how that piece of food lived.

Views people?

Heres some linkage to show I aint a complete raving loony

linky link

Oh and if there are any fruitarians about who can give me a kick up the bum then go ahead.... I respect that you try not to harm anything to get your grub.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Little_Miss_Nebula


But plants are still alive, as are fungi, as are we.... all in their own special way. They react to the environement around them, they reproduce. How do you know that they aren't debating what we're up to?


We don't. But we also have absolutely no reason to suppose that they do, and good but not conclusive reasoning to support the idea that they can't.

Long story short, we just need to do what's best based on the best information at present. Short story long, anything by Dickens.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Seabadger


member


Total posts: 25
Posted:Plants have no nerves, so they physically can't feel.

They also have no brains so they have no where to register emotions.

I appreciate they are living and can react to the atmosphere but not that they have fealings.


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Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo

Total posts: 3764
Posted:the whole idea of whether or not plants have feelings is irrelevant to a discussion of what it is we should be eating. we've evolved over a period of a couple million years or so, to be omnivorous... our species is supposed to eat meat, fruit, vegetables and nuts.

grains, via the agricultural revolution, were only introduced into our diet a matter of 10,000 years ago, which in evolutionary terms is a mere pittance.

we're not doing ourselves any favours by the propagation of grains as a mainstay of the human diet, both in terms of our health and well being and in the health of the planet in general.

arguments put forward that the farming of animal meat is detrimental to the planet are ludicrous. we've been eating meat since our species could pick up a rock and crush the nearest animal. the farming of grains is a double-edged sword... yes, we, as a species have pushed ourselves into a corner where the only way we can afford to feed the exploding population is via grains. but we would never have got to that point (out of control population growth) without the farming of grain.

if, on the other hand, you wish to argue that modern farming practises (steroid-laden chicken, grain-fed beef, battery hens etc etc) are detrimental to both our health and the health of the planet, I'm with you 100%. I'll buy free-range eggs, "organic" meats (and yes, I'm aware you have to be very careful what they label as organic), grass-fed beef, whenever I can, not only because it's good for me, but good for all of us. but the same can be said for modern vegetable/grain farming practises.

that we should also do what we can to minimize trauma to whatever our chosen food source, ought to go without saying.


I'm rambing a little bit, (and I've gone a little off topic - plants have feelings, but then, so have most of the replies), because I'm tired and haven't had time to put together a cohesive argument. but I'll try to return with more later.


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:whether or not it is irrelevant to what we should be eating it is the title of this discussion



and you can't eat strawberries because you would cause environmental damage

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2268097.ece

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1171724837)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Really OWD I thoroughly get your point (even though animals are getting fed their own kind, along with a lot of other (nonveggie) crapo).

As human beings we evolved to a point were we can incorporate a lot of stuff into our diet and survive (a reasonable time) - this is one aspect why we are superior, besides the fact that a lot of our evolution is due to the intake of animal protein.

Now we have come to a point where we are no longer dependant on a particular source of food and where we - as one of the most sophisticated predators on this planet - even get compassionate about our prey. And much of this is due to our very unique situation in the west.

IMO this is a very interesting point in our history.

Yet we cannot deny that this development only took place within a VERY brief period of time. Our minds (mostly) evolved a lot quicker than our bodies, instincts and habits may be able to follow up on it.

I'm pointing this out, because I think that this discussion is only affecting and is only appropriate to us here in the "developed" west. I guess none of you would go so far to tell the tribes they should cease hunting (if much of their survival is depending on it), due to ethical reasons.

We - as humans and the dominating species - are having a deep impact on this planet and it simply is our choice how deep this impact is going to be.

Any which way this planet will die one bright day in the far future, we cannot stop this as this is a natural law. The only thing we might be able to do is to shoot ourselves to another solar system and restart. So: this planet is going to die, no matter what, and if humans are not building an arch, then (most likely) nobody will.

So back to the initial topic (and I also do side you on the point, that animal farming is also inflicting on vegetable rights, and am not trying the sidealley that humans as such are infringing with ANY liveforms rights on this planet):

As long as vegetarians are trying to put a guilt pattern on meatlovers, nothing is going to change - IMHO.

It has to be a conscious decision each and every individual is happy with and is doing from one's own heart.

I'll not try to point out that the structure of society in which we are living today is very fragile. Almost 50% of the human population is living in cities already. If one of the mayor metropolitans (like Tokyo, NYC, L.A. etc.) is going to blow up, OR if some other event is going to put this civilization on the edge, the scenario can change rapidly.

How many of us urbanauts would be able to go back into nature and feed themselves?

However, I'm on the merge of going astray: IMHO a balanced diet is the key. US citizens do seem to hold the record of meat/ capita/ year as in 100kgs per head and year (that's an awful lot of meat)... A balanced diet (maybe 1 meat/ week) will greatly improve the status quo, but I do neither have the right nor do I hold the power to stop people from eating meat and I suspect that ppl would resent, if I would.

Therefore I can only live through example and eat as little meat as I can and as much as I "need" (as in "personal preference") and emphasise that the conditions under which animals (and veggies) are farmed is 99% a horrible nightmare.

It's not up to me to condemn anyone for their actions, because IMHO this will not lead anywhere but into conflict. I can raise awareness and that is as much as I can do.

Maybe I made myself a little clearer now, as you may have gotten the wrong impression, OWD. wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Total posts: 3252
Posted:FireTom- a balanced a well written post.


 Written by: FireTom



So back to the initial topic (and I also do side you on the point, that animal farming is also inflicting on vegetable rights.....




Thank you for acknowledging that you've read and understood the point I was making.


 Written by: FireTom





As long as vegetarians are trying to put a guilt pattern on meatlovers, nothing is going to change - IMHO.





I hope you understand that I'm not trying to put a guilt pattern on meatlovers, I'm simply presenting a few facts and some lines of reasoning.



 Written by: FireTom



Maybe I made myself a little clearer now, as you may have gotten the wrong impression, OWD. wink



Do you think I've gotten the wrong impression?

What particular areas?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo

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Posted: Written by: faithinfire


whether or not it is irrelevant to what we should be eating it is the title of this discussion




very true... but my opinion on that topic... is that it is irrelevant... just because it's contrary, doesn't make it wrong... or in fact irrelevant to the discussion.


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo

Total posts: 3764
Posted:oh... and that's a bugga about the strawberries... cos I love strawberries... but I wonder... is it strawberries that are problem or the specific farming practises used to grow them?

they're (albeit indirectly via the local council) obtaining the water illegally and destroying the underlying water table in the process; that doesn't mean there isn't a better, more ecologically sound way to cultivate them.


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I agree Fire Tom: As long as vegetarians are trying to put a guilt pattern on meatlovers, nothing is going to change. Well said clap

Thats the only reason I weighed into this debate. I read a few pages and came away feeling like a second class citizen because I like to eat meat. So I responded with few facetious comments.

Personally, I think eating fish caught in the wild is a much bigger problem than farming animals because fish stocks are being depleted at rapid rate.

There is also a big difference between ripping down the Amazon to grow hamburgers for upsize Americans and grazing beef cattle on the flood plains of the Darling to produce organic beef in a sustainable system that works with nature. Unfortunately, most of Australias rivers are being depleted by greedy irrigators to growing inefficient crops like rice, soy and mung beans.


nuff for now




soapbox


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Stone


I agree Fire Tom: As long as vegetarians are trying to put a guilt pattern on meatlovers, nothing is going to change. Well said clap


Feeling victimised doesn't change whether or not your lifestyle causes unneccasery harm or not.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Good point, Jeff. clap

Yet our entire lifestyle causes (unnecessary) harm.

All across the threads: our exotic fruit, our leather or plastic shoes, if we look at our jewelry, or spin with fire (burning fossil fuels for sheer pleasure) our desktop PC's - even the very screen you're receiving this post from... a satellite had to be shot in to space for this (in another scenario we had to put cables on the bottom of the ocean)etc etc... shrug ach, preachertell shut the ***** up!

But where do we start? And why are we trying to put others down? (lower than ourselves that is)

Vegetarianism will NOT turn us into saints and not flying won't either - not even the two combined, I'm afraid... (besides: Hitler was vegetarian) but it seems to be quite en vogue to crack down on meat lovers and frequent flyers, freedom fighters, US citizens and SUV drivers.... whereas the latter.... rolleyes wink (an average of 100 kgs of meat per capita and year.. US guys, c'mon... umm footinmouth help ubblol wink devil *I said shut the f*** up! spank * Excuse me please rolleyes )

@ OWN: just my paranoia maybe wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:the article was linked i thought
but the strawberry thing was i gathered from the article that many of brit and europes strawberries were grown in spain and that people were illegally getting water, lowering the water table and causing environmental damage


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Jeff, you said "Feeling victimised doesn't change whether or not your lifestyle causes unneccasery harm or not."

Thats crap. Its not about feeling victimized, its about changing peoples attitudes. The guilt approach does not work.

Unnecessary harm could mean many things to many people. If you want to stop unnecessary harm then you had better start at the top, and teach human beings to respect each other first. When humans have evolved enough to respect each other and stop killing each other. Then perhaps they will respect the environment as well as other species.

frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:redface and I can side that one aswell...

Victimizing others doesn't change a thing to the better.

Feeling victimised doesn't change a thing to the better.

Respect - on the other hand - changes a lot. Nobody wants to be beaten into submission (outside S/M wink ) And personally I prefer ppl who come from the source of free will. Anything else I have experienced as phoney and only lasting as long as the back is turned on them.

And to add one more thought: It's much about respect for each other. Some species/ ppl are willingly giving their lives for others (that's called devotion), it's just up to us whether we abuse this for the sheer satisfaction of a superficial and fake need, or whether we (as a species) finally grow up and stop to ridiculously force ourselves upon each and everything else here on this planet.... Do I make sense to you?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stone


Jeff, you said "Feeling victimised doesn't change whether or not your lifestyle causes unneccasery harm or not."

That’s crap. It’s not about feeling victimized, it’s about changing peoples attitudes. The guilt approach does not work.



frown



Jeff pointing out that it's quite possible to have a lifestyle that does cause harm and yet feel victimised when someone tries to point that out.

From a buddhist perspective, I'd say that it's actually quite common.

From that perspective, most who cause harm do so through ignorance, rather than intent.

And, when someone tries to address that, the ego defends itself by throwing up feelings of righteousness followed by feeling victimised.

Clear examples of historical figures include Hitler, who clearly did cause actual harm, yet throuhgout felt victimised (by jews).

 Written by: Stone




Unnecessary harm could mean many things to many people. If you want to stop unnecessary harm then you had better start at the top, and teach human beings to respect each other first. When humans have evolved enough to respect each other and stop killing each other. Then perhaps they will respect the environment as well as other species.

frown



I agree that what constitutes 'unnecessary harm' is often open to interpretation.

Buddhism has a long standing tradition of vegetarianism- however, many buddhists are not vegetarian: that particular choice is one that, in buddhism as a whole, seems to be fairly open to interpretation.

However, other activities are not so open to interpretation-

'Right livlihood', one of the strands of the buddhist 'eightfold path' requires that you do not engage in work that clearly causes harm.

A common example given to illustrate this is the arms trade.

If someone makes their living selling land-mines, they are not buddhist.

Those who sell land-mines, from the buddhist perspective, do cause unnecessary harm- it's not open to interpretation.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good points Dave. I agree with the ego thing, though I still think there is something is missing in this debate. You could call it victimization, but what I object to is the way vegetarians take the high moral ground in these debates.



The Middle Way sets a path through the two extremes of indulgence and self-denial. It could be construed that the hard-line attitude of many vegetarian / animal rights campaigners looks a lot like self-denial, and is in many ways indulgent. Enlightenment cannot be reached by a person who is not calm and at ease, or is so exhausted by hunger and thirst that their mind is unbalanced.



I also find the concept of right livelyhood difficult to understand. Many caring professions can also cause harm. Politicians who put re-election over the well being of their constituents, lawyers who defend guilty people, chefs who cook meat, Doctors who rely on animal testing.



You are right of course; the greatest battle is conquering oneself, besides which conquering others is simple and ultimately purposeless.



cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stone



Good points Dave. I agree with the ego thing, though I still think there is something is missing in this debate. You could call it victimization, but what I object to is the way vegetarians take the high moral ground in these debates.







You mean some vegetarians, yes?



I would say probably the majority of vegetarians do not take a moral high ground or try to victimise meat-eaters.



Of course, a minority do, but I'd put that down mainly to human nature/personality characterisitcs, than anything to do with being veggie.



Personally, I've met as many meat-eaters with a real bad attitude against vegetarianism- always goading for a 'debate' (generally = argument).



That doesn't mean meat-eaters are assholes; rather, some assholes are meat-eaters (or indeed, veggies).













 Written by: Stone







The Middle Way sets a path through the two extremes of indulgence and self-denial. It could be construed that the hard-line attitude of many vegetarian / animal rights campaigners looks a lot like self-denial, and is in many ways indulgent. Enlightenment cannot be reached by a person who is not calm and at ease, or is so exhausted by hunger and thirst that their mind is unbalanced.









Yes, but let's be realistic, barring that minority of individuals with genuine medical conditions, a vegetarian diet in no way leads to disruption of the mind, hunger or thirst, does it?



As you know, many practising buddhist sects are and have always been, vegetarian- vegetarianism is every bit as much the 'middle way' as is a diet including meat.



Most vegetarians are far from 'deprived'- entirely the opposite.







 Written by: Stone



I also find the concept of right livelyhood difficult to understand. Many caring professions can also cause harm. Politicians who put re-election over the well being of their constituents, lawyers who defend guilty people, chefs who cook meat, Doctors who rely on animal testing.









In the case of politicians who put re-election over the well being of their constituents- that is a clear case of not having 'right livelihood'.



Others aren't as clear-cut- but then, few things in life are.



Buddhists just have to do their best- assess, as well as they can, the consequences of their work and take it from there.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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daphne
PLATINUM Member since May 2005

daphne

member
Location: dark sun

Total posts: 91
Posted:I just saw this thread and I want to say a few things as well.

I've been a vegeterian for 8 years now. (I drink milk, and I eat yogurt, cheese..). All these years I've never tried to convince anybody into becoming a vegeterian. I've never even judged them. I believe that it's my right to make that choice as it's their right to choose to eat meat.

Occasionally people ask me 'why?' there is a number of reasons that led me to that decision and among them is my inability to kill an animal. It's like letting someone to do all the dirty work for you. Yes maybe if I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere and I need food, I will hunt for it, but in the current condition of our society i find it totally unnecessary.
Some people respect my choice, some even understand it. But there is a large number of them that practically laughs at it. Acts is if I'm a naive person that lives in a dreamy world. (well I believe that it's up to each one of us to make a difference). Very often I hear all these comments... "You're still a vegeterian?!?!" "and how do you live without meat?!" "You know, it wont kill you to take a bite"... A lot of them act is if i'm going through a phase that I'll grow out of.
I find all that insulting to my personality and I feel that they show complete lack of respect.

I think that in both sides there are people with terrible attitude. But the whole problem starts with the fact that there are sides. This is a personal choice and should be treated as sush. It's not about wrong or right. It's something completely subjective. After all, the importance of reasons making someone a vegeterian is different even among vegeterians. So, I really think that this conflict is pointless.

peace, love and hug


I'll tell you this...
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. "Jim Morrison"
****
"...but I, being poor, have only my dreams
I've spread my dreams under your feet
tread softly because you tread on my dreams..." Yeats

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:<Middle of the night rant coming on>



 Written by: daphne

It's not about wrong or right. It's something completely subjective.





err the damage to the environment is not subjective. Unless you think the depletion of fish stocks is just purely conjecture and no-one really knows how many fish there are anyhow? Then discomfort to the animals in intensive farms is subjective I guess...to them? Would it be subjective if it were people in there? Is it subjective in Guantanamo bay? In refugee camps? is their suffering just take it or leave it up to the individual to deny or not - no facts involved? whats this subjective mean anyhow?



if you feel guilty for doing something wrong it means you are doing something wrong that you as a good person dont really want to stop doing, but know you probly should. thats what guilt is for. Bad people try to use it as a weapon - but come on - no one is denying the facts - this leads to conclusions which are uncomfortable.



If you really want to live guilt free (tricky as a white westerner) theres either a long road of denial ahead or a long road of healing.



</rant>

EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1172063358)


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daphne
PLATINUM Member since May 2005

daphne

member
Location: dark sun

Total posts: 91
Posted:You should understand that I obviously don't think the environmental destruction is subjective. After all I am a vegeterian. But this is the right choice for ME. With my principals, my moral values and my way of thinking.
As for the guilty part, I don't feel guilty about anything. I'm happy with my choices.
I believe that most people aren't even informed to make a decision. They eat meat because everybody else does. But I can't pass judgement on anyone for this. Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't. I don't know, but I try not to judge people in general.
And the proof that it's something subjective comes from the fact that there are varying opinions on the subject of eating/not eating meat.


I'll tell you this...
No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn. "Jim Morrison"
****
"...but I, being poor, have only my dreams
I've spread my dreams under your feet
tread softly because you tread on my dreams..." Yeats

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:the guilt part wasnt aimed at you daphne, it was aimed at those who 'are sick and tired of being guilt tripped by vego-nazis'. Just pointing out that guilt is something good people feel when they knowingly do something wrong.



I agree that there are many things that we shouldnt judge people for that fall into the realm of personal preference- eg the colour T shirt they want, whether they prefer mornings or evenings, classical over rock, what colour they want to dye their hair, etc



however when it comes to matters of harm - especially to others then we do need to make judgments. If a person goes out and shoots someone, we judge that to be wrong, and as a society we dont generally tolerate it. But if that person behaves in a way that is very harming, but distributes the harm over the whole world (like illegally releasing CFCs from old fridges into the atmosphere - something that has a known widespread damaging effect) we dont seem to sanction them anywhere near as much, because there is no obvious victim. Still we sanction them with a fine or something. same as White collar crime vs Theft, steal $100,000 from 100,000 people and you wont get the same punishment you would if you stole if from one person.



One thing we seem to be completely unable to grasp as a society however is future harm. People are doing things right now that are definitely going to harm the lives of future generations. No doubt about it. And there are no sanctions for that.



In this early morning rant, I've not even addressed the rights of animals, or the environment.



I accept your point about people not making the right choices because they dont have the best information - I think we all fit in that category, but what about people who do know the information, but still choose to go on doing what they are doing?



ie - if someone trips over a dog at a BBQ, and accidentally stabs someone, we call it a shocking accident, however if someone drives over to someones house in the middle of the night and knowingly stabs them, we call it murder. The law certainly makes a distinction.



I'll go back under my rock now.



Josh


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good points Dave. When its all said and done I suppose it comes down to having to give up something.



Dave you asked You mean some vegetarians, yes?

No, I meant guilt tripping vego-nazis wink My eyes roll over when people get on their soap-box and start moralising. It always ends in tears. Im with daphne. It's not about wrong or right.



Old Zen Poem (I love this one, so I keep dragging out)



The perfect way is without difficulty,

Save that it avoids picking and choosing.

Only when you stop liking and disliking

Will all be clearly understood.

A split hairs difference

And heaven and hell are set apart!

If you want to get to the plain truth,

Be not concerned with right or wrong,

The conflict between right and wrong is a sickness of the mind.



Have a good one



Tree hug2 ers



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:(from under the rock)

zen seems to be about destroying consciousness...yes?

I cant see how someone who is conscious of their actions would think its better to not concern themselves with the wrongness or rightness of their actions...that sounds extremely chaotic. I mean I guess it works for non-conscious beings...

Do you think it means what will be will be, and so dont waste time thinking about it?

I think I get the bit about only when you stop choosing will it get easy.

along the lines of "The only things you keep are the things you give away" or "He who has the least possessions is the richest man"...


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pyro, I really can't follow up on what you're putting out here. Without condescendence, I gain the impression you're cought up in a black and white pattern (BAD white, GOOD black - or vice versa, depending on the situation)...

Much has been said already and even though I can understand, I do not support that guilt pattern put on meatlovers, neither I do support the ignorance them choose to live in.

Personally I do eat meat occasionally. It's not the main part of my diet, but it's a part of it. And no, I do not feel guilty for it. Why would I? Because I didn't kill that chicken, or caught that fish myself? Tell you what, I don't work in the sewers, yet I do go to the 5hitters, and what's wrong with that? I'm taking myriads of lives, when driving a car at sunset and whenever I sit on a motorbike, hitting a butterfly I feel sorry for it. But that's the way it is - to me.

I try to minimize my impact on the environment, society and the planet as a whole - this too does neither turn me into a saint, nor does it make me a "good" person (whatever that means and whoever defines that).

I only know one thing: I recognised that I was in a powerstruggle on and off with myself, when I used to judge upon any stereotypical part of society: the rich, the polytrickians, the industrial responsible, the stupid, etc. *fill in appropriate group*

So, slashing out to any of "those" says more about myself, than it does about them... at least IMHO

Hence I do well understand your rant, as it sometimes is very frustrating if one has seen "the light" and nobody else around can really notice what one perceives the truth to be.

I would just prefer to have a biased argument and to see the "lefties" stop the fighting as much as they want this anyone else to do.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:A few thoughts on the 'guilt trip' that is being brought up many times in this thread-



1. are there any actual examples in this thread of this kind of behaviour from vegetarians?



If so, how about posting a few quotes so we can get an idea of what meat-eaters perceive as attempts at laying on guilt.



2. Is some of this down to being a bit sensitized?



ie, if someone points out that there is plenty of evidence showing that the meat industry causes substantial environmetal damage- it's a safe bet that they're simply posting that as a straightforward factual matter.



Is this what meat-eaters are seeing as being attempts to provoke guilt feelings?



3. As adults, isn't it the case that if someone's trying to put guilt feelings on to us, it's our choice as to whether we're going to take that on?



If you genuinely believe you've nothing to feel guilty about, then, assuming that you've got a decent grip on yourself and your life, i don't see how a ranting veggie can have much effect.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Even if this void has been in this thread so far, OWD - I guess Josh just filled it wink ubblol help hug

I quite like the idea of a "ranting veggie" - as in an angry zuccini... wich would then be a "zickini" (excuse, german insider-joke)... ubblol

And this brings us straight back to the initial topic. umm

I just love your posts OWD... ubblove hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:ah yes the old - "but we cant completely fix it so lets ignore it and stop talking about it" attitude. or - we all do what is in our ability to do, but many people simply dont have much ability to think about the damage they are causing....

I dont buy it - until we as a race wake up and start taking some responsibility for this mess, we are going to be in deeper poo than we already are.

and nobody wakes up to this stuff til its too late. ie - if youve noticed the Geese flying the wrong way in the winter, its probly too late to do anything about their impending extinction or about the global warming thats caused it.

And besides, from your aircon home to your aircon office to your aircon shopping mall in your concrete city I dont see how you'd particularly notice this stuff yourself. how are you going to wake up?

I've never claimed to have seen the light, I've merely pointed out a few _undisputed-on-both-sides_ facts and tried to lay out an argument based on them.

Yes I understand that perhaps it might make people unhappy to realise that they are contributing to extinction, de-forestation, global warming, and any number of other blights on the planet we all depend on and 'love'.

I dunno - I think I'd rather be unhappy but know whats going on and be trying to help, than be happy in ignorance.

and besides...

<crosses arms and pouts>

Bluecat started me off back in the down the rabbit hole thread so its his fault! bloody hippies and their green-memes! smile hug

</>


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted::reads above post and notices three sentences started with 'and':



yeah - definitely a rant. does that make the facts or logic faulty tho?



Wheres Jeff? I need my logic checked.. wink


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:This thread's a little shy in the guilt thing, but a good example might be a meat is murder bumper sticker. ( I saw one of those yesterday, and thought of this thread )

But one thing's for certain on this thread...nobody's trying to justify that their obviously environmentally hostile consumption of meat is somehow making them a better person like was tried on the flying thread.

We all pick the ways that we willingly destroy the planet in pursuit of our desired mindsets. Ignorance might not really be the issue here as much as apathy is.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol I like your attitude, Josh - no question. But I doubt that climate change can be traced back to a BBQ wink

I can't see that the consumption of meat is hostile to the planet. IMHO it's just in the way that animals are treated. Many persons (whilst being farmers and butchers, etc) do forget that they are actually dealing with a living (and conscious) organism... one thing that frightens me most about mankind is the potential to deprive others from their born rights. meditate

Personally, I am okay with my diet - without denial, ignorance and without guilt... at least IMHO.

Back to the topic: It's interesting how meatlovers get all defensive about their "habits" - guess that makes them prey wink IMO two wrongs don't make a right. So, if one's not happy with what they do (as you already put it, Josh - and also OWD): go and do something about it! shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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