Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism.... Plants have feelings too

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PsyriSILVER Member
artisan
1,576 posts
Location: Berkshire, UK


Posted:
I would just like to mention out of general irritation that some veggie friends give me. They always ask how can I have a clean conscience because I eat meat? Uusally giving me a long lasting lecture also about how much healthier it is. I have no rpoblem with the healthy part. But I would like to inform you that plants have feelings too. If you have come across kirlian photography (aura photography) you can see strands coming from them. Well we know plants are alive of course but what about other tests that have been undergone? Plants react to the atmosphere around them eg music, smells, people talking.

Albeit they are a different form of life I just wish some veggies would stop taking the moral highground because I like meat.

All I can say is I appreciate every morsel of food that passes through my lips and I wonder where it came from and how that piece of food lived.

Views people?

Heres some linkage to show I aint a complete raving loony

linky link

Oh and if there are any fruitarians about who can give me a kick up the bum then go ahead.... I respect that you try not to harm anything to get your grub.

FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
ubblol

shrug

I am certain, NOT to have convinced about this, but I might have been able to demonstrate, that you came across as such. wink

hug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


BurningHaloSILVER Member
member
46 posts
Location: Dumfries,South West Scotland


Posted:
Isn't life in a giant circle. Animals eat plants, we eat animals(basically). So if we all start eating the green stuff then it will run out just like fossils fuels and trees etc. so eventually we will be killing the animals anyway to stop them getting our food. So we are killing them anyway frown

"It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" Anon


spinningstarletSILVER Member
enthusiast
271 posts
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*, United Kingdom


Posted:
now i did not read the whole thread but i read the first few posts and this last page here.

My View on Diet (and CHOICE) is thus:

I choose not to eat meat and this is my choice.

Other people choose to eat meat and that is their choice

i do not got about telling people "meat is murder" etc etc, and therefore in the same way i do not expect people to tell me that i am wrong to not eat meat.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever discussing the reason why i am veggie (and truth be told, it is mostly habit by now, and the fact that i just do not want to eat meat, the texture freaks me out, and i do not like the thought of eating dead animals - no matter how natural it is!) but i do expect people to respect my opinion and CHOICE not to. like i respect theirs.

BurningHaloSILVER Member
member
46 posts
Location: Dumfries,South West Scotland


Posted:
Sure i don't quite understand vegiterians, but i think its great you can live that lifestyle, i couldn't

"It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" Anon


spinningstarletSILVER Member
enthusiast
271 posts
Location: Bradford *rolls eyes*, United Kingdom


Posted:
Caitriana, for me personally it is not even a big deal. there is nothing hard about not eating food you do not like!

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: Caitriana52


Isn't life in a giant circle. Animals eat plants, we eat animals(basically). So if we all start eating the green stuff then it will run out just like fossils fuels and trees etc. so eventually we will be killing the animals anyway to stop them getting our food. So we are killing them anyway frown



ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

That's by far the funniest post I've ever seen on HOP.

An easy answer to your concerns lies in many of the posts a few pages back, particularly some of mine where I go into detail of how meat-eaters actually indirectly consume far more plants/vegetation than non-meat eaters, as meat production relies on plants for animal feed.

If ever vegatation started to run out globally, one of the best ways to stretch it out would be to cut down meat consumption.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
hmmmmmmmmm.... was the nature of your post ironic, or better spoken: playful? If you (still) feel like, Caitriana, maybe you specify what you mean?

OWD, you seem to be (too) convinced of your argument. You might become aware that with such slogans, you may be brushing the majority of mankind over the same edge.

Having said this: Of course you do that with the exception of meat-eaters who do eat organically farmed meat... rolleyes

Please excuse me, if I am ridiculing this thread by pointing out rhetorical details, but

I would like to ask you:

If I am buying a car, that previously got stolen (without my knowledge) - am I becoming a thief myself?

If I am buying a diamond ring - do I become a murderer and rapist?

If I am buying detergent in the supermarket - do I become a supporter of environmental destruction?

If I do buy Chinese products - am I a supporter of global destruction (i.e. warming and extensive use of natural resources), a supporter of slave labour and of a totalitarian regime? wink

It appears to me that you seem to suggest these kind of analogies.

I somehow can't follow up on your policy to condemn consumers for the practices of the producers. This - to my understanding - doesn't even go far with the rules of Karma.

I understand that it seems to be less possible to have laws changed that force industrial meat production into sustainability and to act more "humanitarian", as it is to imply "guilt patterns" on consumers for making their choices. But IMNSHO this is an invalid approach.

Continue, but maybe that chip is not sitting on other ppls shoulder wink hug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
On the other hand....Maybe OWDs posts on the topic have elevated MY level of awareness about the meat industry which has caused ME to either consume less meat, or choose organic meat because, before this thread, I had no idea of where my food came from.

I am the consumer, and I am creating the demand.

I can no longer hide behind a wall of ignorance...but it was fun while it lasted.

FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
You - as a consumer - create demand? umm that's new to me...

However, not questioning that post about the facts do raise awareness. To repeat: I am not opposing obvious facts, but false accusations. Simply because the purpose/ intention is good, doesn't mean that I have to accept the ( censored ) way and encoding in which it's presented.

When ordering a steak in a restaurant, or getting one from the shop - so far - I heard nobody going (including myself): "But please let me have the one, that created the most suffering. I like it really bloody - dribbling that is."

If you did not waste a thought about where your food comes from, you certainly are not alone - but this did neither turn you into a murderer, nor made you commit crimes against humanity.

Yupp, "awakening" can be good fun wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Yes..I as a consumer, create the demand for something like the lives of 20 cows over the course of my lifetime. Were I a vegetarian, then it stands to reason that these cows wouldn't have been needed to be born and raised to feed me.

If I were to seek out organic beef, might I be responsible for less suffering ? maybe but I have doubts about the organic angle and it's effect on my local environment. I've been trying to find out just where my beef comes from, but alas. the internet fails me and I'm currently interviewing butchers when I'm in my local supermarket.

So far it seems like there's a boot the cows out onto the grasslands to graze in the spring/summer component and then send them to a feedlot to fatten up on grain for a few months before slaughter...

I might not be the murderer,,but I do order the "contract" which makes me complicit in the crimes against bovinity.

Good thing cows can't sue wink

FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Got it - so far I reckoned that "demand" was created by TV-ads wink wink



The "contract" you are ordering is: "Gimme a steak" You are not indicating the way in which it is produced as a framework, except if you INSIST on "organically grown".



IMO this is responsibility of our governments. Rules and regulations are set up by the state, according to public demand. And this is why awareness about the current facts is needed.



Now if OWD would have labelled meat producers rather than consumers, my response might have been a different one... wink



Are we still on topic? Are plants preferring happy cows? wink



[edit: to whom it may concern] I dislike vast generalisations and such slogans - perhaps because I am using them myself once and too often. But even more than that I dislike the rhetorical/ strategical motion to indicate "mental problems" on others who simply have a different opinion.



The term "meat-eaters" (generally) applies to everybody, eating meat - it is only limited by using the prefix "moderate" or "organic". IF meat eaters would be in the majority, the term "meat eaters" (especially what is connected to it) addresses and accuses the majority of mankind.



This - IMO - is as wrong as addressing and accusing all "firedancers" (in general). As in stating: "meat eaters (in general) are causing unnecessary suffering and usually don't care" would then be the same as saying "firedancers (in general) are contributing to global warming and usually do it on purpose"...



I feel compelled to set this straight, as I regard both statements as defamatory and erroneous. I'm constantly reconsidering my attitude in this, but come to the same conclusion each and every time: It's wrong to put out slogans like that, especially in writing and especially here.



I do well remember that this usually gets called "bigoted" and am wondering why I am the only one raising his voice on and against this.



Maybe I'm just a bit sensitized to "collective guilt patterns" by inheritage. shrug wink



hug



No offence meant, just a little bit taken.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1174724170)

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
tom I hope this doesnt come across as Agro - its not meant to.



dude - you're arguing with yourself. Your putting up statements that no-one has said, and then shooting them down. a little tip - if you want to show that what someone is saying is rubbish, use quotes. If you paraphrase you will usually twist the meaning, and your argument loses strength. IMHO you have done this several times in this thread (eg your examples in the previous post).



--



If you know your meat is coming from a dodgy factory / high intensity farm then you are directly responsible if you continue to buy that stuff - dont you ever boycott companies that have dodgy practises? I do, all the time its usually easy.



however even if you dont know you are doing something wrong, it can still have an effect.



In law when sentencing someone for a crime they usually split the argument into two parts (I think) Mens rea (or something) roughly translates to your intention and Actus reas -> your action. This means that both the intention and the action count. Having the right intension doesnt automatically let you off for any bad action.



If you run over a child but dont know about it, you are still causing suffering. If the parent tried to tell you that that was what you were doing, would you say 'but I didnt know - stop putting guilt patterns on me'? your action doesnt go away and the suffering doesnt go away just because you didnt know you did it.



from the abstract to the specific;



You DO know about the cow's suffering and continue to eat its meat - or are you not counting yourself among the 'generalisation'?



btw - I think you are alluding to comments about 'mental health' from another thread. Please keep on topic.



smile
EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1174885313)

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
This is getting hillarious. Hold on to your chairs meat-eaters, as now you get thrown into the same drawer
as child killers [/ironic]

I say that even if a meat eater cares about animal suffering, he might not necessarily become a vegetarian,
what in return doesn't make him ignorant (about the subject).

The given example [sic] is like comparing apples with eggs (ironically hitting the nail on the head).

Somebody ran over and by that killed somebody else -> He caused suffering = Undeniable. Fact.
He caused suffering for that particular person, family and friends.

This doesn't indicate anything about the circumstances, or his condition and the fact itself doesn't contain
judgement.

Let's do that now (reduced version):

One did it without intent = accident.
One did it with/out intent, whilst heavily intoxicated = definately/maybe manslaughter...
One did it on purpose = murder -> person definately goes to jail.

So: Someone intentionally kills a human being -> goes to jail, someone intentionally killing a cat runs free and
someone picking flowers for aunt Annies 5 o'clock tea gets a cheer... umm confused ubbidea shrug

If - god forbid - you run over a child but dont know about it, you are still causing suffering = Fact.

If the parent tried to tell you that that was what you were doing, would you say 'but I didnt know - stop putting guilt patterns on me'? = I wouldn't, personally I'd shut up and let them vent their grief.

But if then somebody else comes and starts calling me a "murderer" - I would straighten him out.

 Written by: pyrolific

Your action doesnt go away and the suffering doesnt go away just because you didnt know you did it.



Now what? You'd expect that person you are talking about to jump from the next building or what? Tell me your verdict.

But it is obvious to me that - as much as I project OWD to be acting out against meat eaters -
I too get misinterpreted in what I'm trying to put across. And it seems that in the effort to explain myself
the situation gets worse.

That's not my intent.

To summarize (*takes notes, shuffles them, turns to the audience to read out*)

"Hear, hear:

- A meat eater (in his choice of diet) causes more unnecessary harm to either plants,
animals and subsequently to mankind and life on planet earth than a vegetarian
(him in this context
suffering from a condition, much alike "second hand smokers").

- A high volume/ dedicated meat eater usually doesn't care (about this) , lives in denial or a lie.

- A meat eater who refers to organically grown meat might be an exeption to the rule.

- The carbon imprint of a meat eater is significantly higher than the one of a vegetarian - i.e. meat eaters
contribute to global warming.


- But anybody eating meat should not feel guilty, as vegetarians do not expect them to.

- Everybody needs to thoroughly inform himself in person and at site about the origins and conditions of (all)
his supplements.


- If going from worse to best, the hierarchy would be

a) high volume/ dedicated meat eaters
(as in "worst")
b) occasional/ organic meat nibblers
c) pescetarians
d) ovoterians
e) lacterians
f) vegetarians
g) vegans
h) fruitarians
i) artificial/ pill/ spacefood
(under the condition that the processes are environmentally acceptable)
i) photosyntheticians (as in "best")

Go ahead, guys... I return to my hammock, enjoying the knowledge that I'm not perfect. peace

(pls sprinkle some wink here and there wink )

hug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
well I dont know how we arrived here - but I agree with your Summary.


I think guilt is only something that you should feel if you know you have done something wrong.

In that case, it would be knowing you are contributing to the unnecessary suffering of animals and continuing to do so.

of course you are right - no one is perfect, however if we all try to do a little better each day, humanity will improve. If we all give up trying and just keep on doing what we have always done, then in a sense we are getting worse.
smile

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


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