Written by: FireTom
But vast generalisations have to be specified:
"Vegans" (in their choice of diet) are causing less harm than meat-eaters (with the exception for organically "grown")
However: a vegan, who is killing humans, is - imho - certainly not much of a better guy, than for say a meat-eating fire-fighter.
Written by: FireTom
This thread seems to have turned into a 100% approval of the vegan or vegetarian diet, as such completely dismissing the topic: "Plants do have feelings, too".
Written by: FireTom
Now despite the fact that vegetarians or vegans (in their choice of diet) are having less impact and cause less suffering to both, animals and plants than a meat-based diet (which in essence was never the dispute - I reckon), they still do cause more unnecessary suffering than a fruitarian (if he limits himself to locally grown fruits).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
OWD: Exactly that might explain the western/ European diet, which is based upon meat for a fair bit: You can't sustain yourself (especially in winter)...
Now these habits have developed over a few aeons and it ain't easy to adjust within one generation, is it? The meat-problem origins in Europe and it's ex-colonies, the others do either not produce enough meat, or are simply gifted with a climate warm enough to produce fruits and veggies all year round.
Written by: FireTom
Would you reckon humans can survive on fruits IF they add artificial supplements, or you don't? Excuse me if I have missed that bit out... Woud it be a fair diet?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Written by: Stone
What I object to in this debate is this attitude that vegans/vegetarians are holier-than-thou, and are not part of the problem. I think it’s ridiculous to suggest " that it’s undeniable that the vegan causes less harm, both environmentally and in terms of animal suffering, than does the meat-eater.” Because it’s a negative statement that polarises the community and does little to solve the problem. It suggests that meat-eaters don’t care for the environment and are cruel.
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The statement is also speculation because it’s only an opinion, and there is no supporting evidence. While it might be true that a meat-based food system requires more energy, land and water resources than a plant-based food system. However, it’s all part of the same food system...
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For example it’s bean suggested that for some “miraculous” reason vegans/vegetarians in the UK would not consume soybeans from Brazil. However, it says in the quoted article “In 1998 the UK imported over 2,000,000 tonnes of soya products, mainly from the USA and Brazil, over half for animal feed.” To me, that says slightly under a million tons of soybeans are going for human consumption (who else apart from vegans eats bean curd
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Soybean oil is the world's most widely used edible oil. In the United States, soybean oil accounts for nearly 80% of edible oil consumption.
Almost all margarine and shortenings contain soybean oil. It also is frequently found in mayonnaise, salad dressings, frozen foods, imitation dairy and meat products and commercially baked goods.
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'To me, that says slightly under a million tons of soybeans are going for human consumption (who else apart from vegans eats bean curd '
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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then it's undeniable that the vegan causes less harm, both environmentally and in terms of animal suffering, than does the meat-eater.
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a diet consisting of intensively farmed meat (which currently constitutes the vast majority of meat bought) is more damaging than a vegan diet
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Whatever they're designed for (ruminants/cows), the fact is that they get what they're given and, in the vast majority of cases (organic animals aside) it ain't grass, it's soya.
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Soya's main use in the UK is as feed for livestock. After the oil has been extracted the resulting high-protein meal is widely used in animal feed, forming an essential fuel for intensively reared cattle, pigs and poultry.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
Hi Fire Tom
I’ve done some more back peddling and this an edited version of my last post.
Ok Dave, I totally accept that it's undeniable that the vegan causes less harm, both environmentally and in terms of animal suffering, than does the meat-eater.
Written by: Stone
However, I don’t see how that statement makes a difference or improves the environment. To me it’s divides the community.
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it's undeniable that the vegan causes less harm, both environmentally and in terms of animal suffering, than does the meat-eater.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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the best smiles are the ones you lead to
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by: onewheeldave
Personally I wouldn't eat it and I suspect many veggies wouldn't either, purely because, like the majority of veggies/vegans, not eating meat is not a hardship or deprival.
Written by: OWD
Most people who go without meat for an extended length of time simply enjoy their diet as it is- I know that meat-eaters often see veggies as being self-deprivers hiding meat-cravings, but, it simply isn't true.
Written by: OWD
My initial feelings on meat-eaters switching to artificially produced meat are that it would be a good thing in terms of cutting down animal suffering and good for the environment (subject to a change of opinion as more facts about the process come through).
Written by: OWD
However, I suspect that uptake amonst committed/high-volumemeat-eaters will be limited as, without wanting to generalise-
1. they often tend to be a bit finicky and fussy about their food
2. they generally don't particularly care about animal suffering (evidenced by thier high meat-consumption) and either don't care, or are in denial, about the environmetal effects of meat-production
3. despite eating mainly intensively farmed meat, they often seem to have romantic fantasies about animals living in luxurious organic conditions, or about hunting thier own animals: lumps of animal cells clumped together in a test-tube will lilely not sit well with their fantasies.
(before anyone goes nuts over any of that, please bear in mind that I'm referring to committed/high-volumemeat-eaters).
More moderate meat-eaters, who do care about animal welfare and the environement, may well be more open to using lab meat.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTomWritten by: onewheeldave
Personally I wouldn't eat it and I suspect many veggies wouldn't either, purely because, like the majority of veggies/vegans, not eating meat is not a hardship or deprival.
... but what is it then? If that meat is produced w/o any animal suffering and environmental impact - what's still wrong with it? Let me suspect further dis-veggie-proval of "carnevalies", if such meat is on the market and ppl do consume it...
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: FireTom
OWD - you repeatedly throw out vast generalizations .....
...do not help the subject and are villainous.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!