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Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism.... Plants have feelings too

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Psyri
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK

Total posts: 1576
Posted:I would just like to mention out of general irritation that some veggie friends give me. They always ask how can I have a clean conscience because I eat meat? Uusally giving me a long lasting lecture also about how much healthier it is. I have no rpoblem with the healthy part. But I would like to inform you that plants have feelings too. If you have come across kirlian photography (aura photography) you can see strands coming from them. Well we know plants are alive of course but what about other tests that have been undergone? Plants react to the atmosphere around them eg music, smells, people talking.

Albeit they are a different form of life I just wish some veggies would stop taking the moral highground because I like meat.

All I can say is I appreciate every morsel of food that passes through my lips and I wonder where it came from and how that piece of food lived.

Views people?

Heres some linkage to show I aint a complete raving loony

linky link

Oh and if there are any fruitarians about who can give me a kick up the bum then go ahead.... I respect that you try not to harm anything to get your grub.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: wiki article



In humans, typically half of stored creatine originates from food (mainly from meat and fish). However, endogenous synthesis of creatine in the liver is sufficient for normal activities. This is evidenced by the fact that, even though vegetables do not contain creatine, vegetarians do not suffer from creatine deficiency.







ie- If you eat meat you get some of your creatine from food- if you don't eat meat, your liver produces it.



The supplementation issue is very simple- vegetarians are in no more need of supplements than meat eaters are (with possible exceptions for some medical conditions).



A good veggie diet provides all necessary nutrients.



The fact that, historically, whole communities have lived their entire lives and thrived on vegetarian diets (for example, many buddhist communities) indicates the truth of this.



In the past, there was a lot of prejuduce and misunderstanding about meat-free diets; one of which was that those who didn't eat meat either required supplements, or, that they had to be especially careful with their diet to avoid malnutrition (more so than meat-eaters).



These days we know better- if someone's suffering malnutrition, it's purely cos they're eating a bad diet and as many meat-eaters suffer from that as do vegetarians.



In the UK, the medical profession is currently encouraging people to cut meat consumption for the same reason it encourages them to quit smoking- cos they believe it will improve the health of the public.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Spanner, basically you're agreeing with me, yes? Just arguing that I should've said "her BAD vegan diet" instead of "her vegan diet", which already specifies it to HER diet and definitely did harm the poor unborn child... And I even put the disclaimer in the same post that there are healthy babies of vegan mothers, I mean, come on, seriously, how much more obvious can I be to state that it's not due to just being vegan, but being vegan and neglecting the specific needs of a becoming mother?!?



Personally though I've never met anyone who ONLY ate meat. But nevermind... I think this is just splitting hairs and quite obviously missing my point which I've made by posting a link to responsible vegan eating during pregnancy.



Pele, your post reminds me of stories of children eating wallpaper because it had elements not present in their diet, or women of an African tribe eating soil because it contained essential metals (zinc or aluminium, can't remember which one) they didn't get enough of during pregnancy. Basically, your body knows what it needs, so it often will go for "weird" foods during times when it needs them. Too tired to find a link right now, but I did read that choccie cravings during periods for example are to do with iron deficiency and subside if you eat more meat. (hop-discussion-forums-disclaimer, not saying anyone should eat more meat because of that...)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: Birgit


Pele, your post reminds me of stories of children eating wallpaper because it had elements not present in their diet, or women of an African tribe eating soil because it contained essential metals (zinc or aluminium, can't remember which one) they didn't get enough of during pregnancy. Basically, your body knows what it needs, so it often will go for "weird" foods during times when it needs them. Too tired to find a link right now, but I did read that choccie cravings during periods for example are to do with iron deficiency and subside if you eat more meat. (hop-discussion-forums-disclaimer, not saying anyone should eat more meat because of that...)



I've seen/read alot about that as well. There was a nutritional study released recently that stated that there is, to date, no scientific support to the statement that cravings are linked to a deficiency.

However, I believe that there does need to be more studies on it. I know that when suffering fatigue and mild headaches that if I eat something iron rich like dark, leafy greens or red meat that they tend to subside, especially around that time. I also know that I crave salt when I am heading down a dehydration road, and if I drink more the craving goes away.

However, either way there is an omni or a veggie help for it. wink

Where people assume that veggies are/can be imbalanced to the detriment of health, so are meat eating diets. Let's look at Atkins, which removes carbs from the diet and has been linked to increases in liver issues, increases in cholesterol and an increase protein based kidney stones.
Which brings us back around to the fact that if you take the basic nutrients that our bodies need and eat in a balanced way, you *should* be relatively healthy (like those disclaimers? wink ).


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:oooooooooh don't get me started on Atkins. Here's from my article on annoying things about women's magazines... not to be taken entirely seriously since the main point of the article was to make people laugh.

 Written by: myself. Published in November.


3. The Atkins diet, representing all one-sided diets. In the world.
Ill get to the point with this one or I will rant on for pages. There is nothing wrong with carbs. The most important biochemical reactions in our bodies are based on carbohydrates and how to get energy from them. Its what the whole breathing and oxygen thing is all about. If you eat more calories than you burn, you will get fat. It wont matter if they are carbs, fat, or protein.

If you eat only protein and fat, your body will burn those, of course. Part of them will go into the gluconeogenesis, a process in which the deprived body makes the carbs you dont feed it. And if someone ever praises that light feeling they get during the Atkins diet, this is a mix of being hypoglycaemic, and poisoning the body with ketones and acids which lower your pH, hence the term ketoacidosis. Its a symptom in diseases such as untreated diabetes.

But go on ahead and do it to yourselves, and buy low carb diet chocolate bars containing 17% glycerol that other, more-sensible-than-you women would only get into their body in the form of lubricants.




There's also a good Foamy the Squirrel ("Fatkins").
http://scarysquirrel.home.comcast.net/fatkins1.html
br>(feel free to remove if unsuitable, he does tend to swear quite a lot...)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Pele

Truth be told, I am tired of hearing the "because it's cruel" line. So is the production of cotton clothes and of junk food, and many supposedly "organic" foods. I am of the opinion that this is much like religion, sexuality and politics, make your choice and do it. Eat meat or don't. I don't need to know about it unless I am cooking for you.

My point is that if we were not meant to eat meat, as many vegs that I know have pointed out, my body would not be designed to do so.


I'm going to have to disagree with your logic on this matter. Cruelty in agriculture or clothing would not exonerate cruelty in the name of meat, and neither does the fact that humans evolved to take advantage of meat (see tu quoque and appeal to nature). It may be true that humans require a certain amount of meat to remain healthy, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimise the level of animal suffering needed to do it.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Continueing of topic--you know, Birgit, recent research has demonstrated that the idea of total calories in vs. calories expended equation as the sole accounting of weight gain is way over simplistic. Certain genetic types use calories from certain foods( proteins, carbs fats etc, very differently. Some of that research show that what form of calories you eat ( and when) can make a radical difference in weight gain or loss ( for some people) .

Not suggesting that in support of any particular diet, certainly not the Atkins. But pointing out that that caloric formula is now bring tossed by many obesity researchers, thought to be so drastically over simplistic as to be useless.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: Birgit



not to be taken entirely seriously since the main point of the article was to make people laugh.







rolleyes



and it says in the subtitle that it's about one-sided diets. Like, making ONE type of source of calories seem like the devil that needs to be avoided at all cost (health included).



Though in the end, things like WHEN you eat calories will very obviously influence if you get the chance to burn them, so I see no contradiction there.

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1170679003)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: Birgit



Spanner, basically you're agreeing with me, yes? Just arguing that I should've said "her BAD vegan diet" instead of "her vegan diet", which already specifies it to HER diet and definitely did harm the poor unborn child... And I even put the disclaimer in the same post that there are healthy babies of vegan mothers, I mean, come on, seriously, how much more obvious can I be to state that it's not due to just being vegan, but being vegan and neglecting the specific needs of a becoming mother?!?



Personally though I've never met anyone who ONLY ate meat. But nevermind... I think this is just splitting hairs and quite obviously missing my point which I've made by posting a link to responsible vegan eating during pregnancy.







I wasn't splitting hairs (and I know people who have gone through phases of only eating meat): I just felt that the difference was worth highlighting for reasons already given in that post.

I didn't think anyone would be provoked by it and I wouldn't have bothered posting it if I'd known you were going to react that strongly towards it.

confused frown



What you said about wallpaper/soil eating was interesting though.

It sounds like Pica, which I happened to be reading about only this morning.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:It just sometimes gets frustrating if you're trying to contribute to a discussion and try and make it very clear that you're not generalising, and get a response that says you shouldn't be generalising, but nevermind... hug

yeah, it is a form of pica, and with the soil it's called geophagy or geophagia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy
br>Seems like people are still disagreeing on whether it can be beneficial, or overall the risk of infection from bacteria in the ground is higher than any potential benefits.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:(someone i heard of (friend of friend) thoughts of drinking some poisonous liquid, like drain cleaner while she was pregnant...it wasn't suicidal but a craving...doctor said it was an acute case of pica, my cousin had all sorts of wierd cravings)
see i was looking for the creatine quote and i didn't say it, if i had i wouldn't have posted that-sorry
and ultimately, while simplistic the caloric formula is right. if you eat more calories than you burn, you get fat. therefore it is important to consider how your body breaks down the food you put in it and how long it takes. this takes into account the when and what. if you eat ice cream in the afternoon before a run, you might get a boost of sugar energy and tire, but the calories would be more likely burnt off than if you ate it before bed. i believe sugars and fats break down quickly and that is why people gain weight, because it gets stored rather than used.
this is why i advocate ice cream sundaes for breakfast biggrin
where did this discussion start and where is it heading?


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)

It may be true that humans require a certain amount of meat to remain healthy, but that doesn't mean we can't try and minimise the level of animal suffering needed to do it.



Finally one thought I can support 999% clap good on ya, Jeff.

It's not about meat or not. I guess the intention of this thread (correct me if I'm wrong) is that plants are as much alive and have every right to be here as ourselves.

The point is, that IF we eat meat (which IMO is a choice, beacause - as proven - we don't HAVE to eat meat), why are we then allowing and supporting this industry in unnecessary torture. (BTW same applies to the veggie-industry, the mining industry and our very own kingdom - it's all across each and every level)

But maybe we turn (our diet in)to a conscious choice and stop denial (of the obvious).


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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DJ Dantana
BRONZE Member since Aug 2001

veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA

Total posts: 1495
Posted:life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on

this is neccisary


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: DJ Dantana


life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on

this is neccisary



..though not especially relevant smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:[Quote]life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on

this is neccisary[/Quote]

hug

Tool are always relevant. Or should be. (for those who didn't get the entirely relevant reference look it up)

smile


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:regarding a living being as a "tool" is not quite my concept rolleyes but that's just me shrug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:shakes head disapprovingly...

Tom... you've misunderstood the cultural references.

Not a tool. But Tool. They be's a band. They also happen to rock. Bigtime...

The reference from dantana was to a song called Disgustipated which is the last track on an album called Undertow.

Tool - Disgustipated Lyrics

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my
place of slumber.

And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the
spaces betwixt the air itself.

And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.

And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.


One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.

And terror possesed me then.

And I begged,

"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"

And the angel said unto me,

"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!


You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them
it is the holocaust."

And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of
one million terrified brothers and roared,

"Hear me now, I have seen the light!

They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!


Damn you!

Let the rabbits wear glasses!

Save our brothers!"

Can I get an amen?

Can I get a hallelujah?

Thank you Jesus.



This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........
This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


This is necessary.

This is necessary.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........


LIFE!









It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch.

You looked up at your sky then.

That made blue be your color.

You had your knife there with you too.

When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes.

Your hands were sticky.

You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green.

Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like
this.

You were already getting nervous again.

Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up.

Your head was almost empty.

It always hurt you when you woke up like this.

You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began
to walk,

waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you.

You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked
toward it.

"If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our
cousin.

" Why didn't anyone else understand these important things?

You got to your car and tried all the doors.

They were locked.

It was a red car and it was new.

There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat.


Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by
your woods.

You began to walk towards them.

Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out
there were yours too.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Pele seems to be saying that the choice to eat meat is a matter of personal preference and that those who do choose to eat meat are not eligible for critisism.

I do understand this position, indeed, as I pointed out previously, i'm not myself vegetarian due to the occasional fish I eat.

There is however, a difference between eating a little meat now and again and the state of the current meat industry.

It's a difference of scale- animal product consumption on the scale of the West involves indisputable high levels of animal suffering.

As I previously meantioned, animal production is also responsible for a high proportion of greenhouse gas production (allegedly 18%)- if so then not only does frequent meat use contribute to animal suffering, but also human suffering- in particular, it endangers our grandchildren.

On those grounds, I would dispute the suggestion that the choice is soley one of personal choice only.

When ones choices affect others badly, there are, IMO, grounds for debate and critisism.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:When it comes to discussion on the vegetarian issue, i think it's OK for both sides to put their cases- debate is good.



One aim being to come to a conclusion.



Often, some of the points put forward tend only to cloud the issue, making resolution difficult.



Getting very much on-topic, which, according to the first post on this thread, is about the view that plants 'have feelings too', as well as rights etc.



The idea being that this means those choosing to eat meat are immune from critisism- as the only alternative is to subsist purely on vegetation, which, allegedly, have feelings and rights.



Personally, my every instinct screams out that this is nonsense, a mere distraction tactic (albeit, probably unintentional).



My feelings also tell me that there's probably little point in trying to rationalise with an individual who really believes that plants can possibly be conscious to the extent that our meat industry is justified.



Fortunately, over the past few days, I've realised there is no need to engage with that particular issue, when, instead, it can be shown to be irrelevant (to the issue of the rights/wrongs of meat eating and vegetarianism).



Let me be somewhat bold and say that I'm not interested in proffering an opinion here- what I am aiming to do is put forward an irrefutable, drop-dead proof, that the existence of plant feelings in no way justifies the meat-industry.



Of course, i may make a mistake, in which case feel free to point it out.



1. For the case of argument, I grant the opposition the possibility that plants are conscious.



2. I'll use one premise/assumption- the fact that, when it comes to doing harm or inflicting suffering, that it is morally preferable, when faced with two options, all other things being equal, to choose the option that results in less harm/suffering.



In life, it is impossible to not inflict harm occasionally- even those who commit to not killing any life, will inevitable occasionally swallow a fly, or sit on something that results in an insect being crushed.



The important thing, morally speaking, is to minimise the harm. Given a choice between selling cakes for a living and selling landmines, it is preferable to sell cakes.



-----------



Getting to the point, take two choices-



A. eating a lot of animal produce/meat



B. eating very little animal produce/meat and instead eating more vegetation



If plants have feelings and can suffer pain/loss, than option B does indeed involve harm.



Option A also involves harm (to the animals).



Clearly though, option A also involves considerably more harm to plants.



This is because animals eat vegetation to live.



They walk, run, copulate, breed- a considerable amount of food is necessary to fuel all this.



As a result, the amount of energy/food value obtained from an animal by eating it, is considerably less than the amount of energy/food value of the crops that have gone into it throughout its life.



This portion is generally said to be around 10 to 1.



This means that, to sustain a human with option B (vegetarian or close to vegetarian) involves an amount of plant suffering which we will call X.



Option A, however (eating, lots of meat) involves an amount of plant suffering equal to X multiplied by 10.



Option B, therefore, as it involves considerably less suffering to both plant and animal, is clearly the morally preferable option.



Thus, even if we accept that plants are capable of suffering, vegetarianism is still the morally superior option.



From this I put forward the suggestion that the 'plants have feelings' justification of the meat-industry, is irrelevant to the issue and nothing more than a smoke-screen.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


When it comes to discussion on the vegetarian issue, i think it's OK for both sides to put their cases- debate is good.

The aim being to come to a conclusion.




with my devils advocate hat on
devil

I don't think that the aim always is to come to a conclusion as to which argument is more correct, or logical.

maybe the aim of the discussion is to come to understanding that there are many different perspectives, and not one size fits all? smile


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Ade


 Written by: onewheeldave


When it comes to discussion on the vegetarian issue, i think it's OK for both sides to put their cases- debate is good.

The aim being to come to a conclusion.




with my devils advocate hat on
devil

I don't think that the aim always is to come to a conclusion as to which argument is more correct, or logical.

maybe the aim of the discussion is to come to understanding that there are many different perspectives, and not one size fits all? smile



A reasonable point... so I've edited the relevant part of my post to read-

 Written by: onewheeldave


One aim being to come to a conclusion.




However, I would want to reiterate that, while some points of discussion are just matters of opinion, others aren't.

For example, we're generally happy to accept diversity of opinions on whether orange is a nicer colour than blue.

However, on matters like slavery, burglaring houses, bullying etc, if anyone maintains that those things are OK, I'm going to maintain that they're simply wrong.

Where does the Western meat industry fall?

That's one of the issues being debated here- it's certainly not been established that it's simply a matter of personal preference.

My post above is meant simply to make the issue a bit clearer by showing that the 'plants are conscious therefore eating animals is OK...' line is wrong.

And, while some of the points in this thread are matters of opinion, open to diverse perspectives, when it comes to the 'plants are conscious therefore eating animals is OK...'- I am actually saying that I've proven it to be invalid.

Maybe someone else can show a flaw in my reasoning, in which case I'll happily retract it.

But, till that happens, i do want to make it clear that I am putting forward my refutation of the 'plants are conscious therefore eating animals is OK...' as fact, not opinion.

Cos I think, after 4 pages of meandering, some solid resolution is a good thing, so, please, do feel free to point out any flaws in my reasoning..

If no-one can, then, having removed this irrelevant, misdirecting 'argument', we can get to the real 'meat' of the issue, a large part of which, IMO, concerns the accountability of those who support the meat industry.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Or, to put it very consisely- if you want to eat meat, that's fine by me.

If you want to eat meat whilst simultaneously claiming that you're not causing unnecessary suffering, to animals and humans; then that's more problematic, I'm probably going to debate that a little; whilst accepting that there are different perspectives, personal circumstances etc.

If, however, you want argue that 'plants are conscious therefore eating animals is OK...', I'm just going to say you're plain wrong- no scope for simply differing opinions and co-existing perspectives- the argument is flawed, invalid and empty.

Cos, even if plants are conscious, it is simply not relevant to the issue of meat-eating and vegetarianism.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: OWD

Where does the Western meat industry fall?



As mentioned earlier...

Homogenizing the 'Western meat industry' is distinctly unhelpful.

Factory Farmed food is not the same as Freedom Food

Freedom Food is not the same as Free Range

Free Range is not the same as Organic

Locally grown produce is not the same as that which is imported.

The main reason the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said that meat production accounts for 18% of the greenhouse effect is the deforestation in the tropics (for example 70% of the Amazon that has been cut down is now used for meat production).

Eating meat from a farm on the outskirts of Bristol does not require cutting down Brazilian rainforest. However, an organic farm on the outskirts of Bristol is part of the vaguely defined western meat industry, far more obviously so than anything in Brazil.

I think what you might mean is that Intensive factory farming, especially that which involves the alteration of old growth forests into agricultural land is a bad idea.

But then this has already been said, and I don't want to put words in your mouth...


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:interestin'

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: dream



 Written by: OWD

Where does the Western meat industry fall?





As mentioned earlier...



Homogenizing the 'Western meat industry' is distinctly unhelpful.



Factory Farmed food is not the same as Freedom Food



Freedom Food is not the same as Free Range



Free Range is not the same as Organic



Locally grown produce is not the same as that which is imported.



The main reason the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said that meat production accounts for 18% of the greenhouse effect is the deforestation in the tropics (for example 70% of the Amazon that has been cut down is now used for meat production).



Eating meat from a farm on the outskirts of Bristol does not require cutting down Brazilian rainforest. However, an organic farm on the outskirts of Bristol is part of the vaguely defined western meat industry, far more obviously so than anything in Brazil.



I think what you might mean is that Intensive factory farming, especially that which involves the alteration of old growth forests into agricultural land is a bad idea.



But then this has already been said, and I don't want to put words in your mouth...





You're right to express concern at my use of a vaguely defined term.



Let me clarify:



By the 'meat industry' I'm not only referring to that segment that relies on deforestation. I'm referring most intensive meat farming and, quite possibly, where some aspects are concerned, the organic meat producers.



 Written by:



The main reason the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said that meat production accounts for 18% of the greenhouse effect is the deforestation in the tropics (for example 70% of the Amazon that has been cut down is now used for meat production).







I'm no expert on this, but the research I've done suggests that deforestation is not the main reason and, is far from the only reason.



Here's a link-



http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html



 Written by: from above lijnk





And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia, which contributes significantly to acid rain.











ie actual animal emmisions, produced by them regardless of where they are situated or whether their land was deforested.



 Written by: from above lijnk





The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the earth’s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles, reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources. Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.









...and several other issues.



IMO, the problem is the sheer scale of production- we eat way too much meat and animal produce.



The scale is such that it causes substantial envirinemtal damage.



Another problem with the scale of production is that, when some animal issues are addressed eg by use of organic farming, it simply creates greater problems elsewhere (environmental).



The 'organic meat vision' can only work in conjunction with a massive reduction in overall meat production.



So, it's pretty much the entire meat industry.



We can split it into different sections ie intensive, organic, that relient on deforested land and, each causes different types of harm.



But, of one thing we can be sure, whatever type of meat industry it is, on its current level of scale, it does cause considerable harm.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20772&Cr=global&Cr1=warming

 Written by:


With increased prosperity, people are consuming more meat and dairy products every year, the report notes. Global meat production is projected to more than double from 229 million tonnes in 1999/2001 to 465 million tonnes in 2050, while milk output is set to climb from 580 to 1043 million tonnes.




That means it's looking like it's going to get worse.

Then there's the backlog effect as developing countries aspire to our 'cultured' ways and want the same riches that we have.

To me, one solution is for our culture to face up to reality and really clarify what the true consequences of our level of meat/animal production are-

1. animal suffering on an immense scale

2. huge environemtal damage that effects every human being and creature on the Earth

That's just the pretty indisputable effects, before we address the deep sickness that runs through large-scale animal production and it's relience on anti-biotics, issues with the likes of 'mad-cow disease', 'bird-flu' etc.

It's insanity and it needs addressing.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Psyri
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK

Total posts: 1576
Posted:Well I'm glad to see my topic provoked some discussion. I am considered slightly mad depnds on the day. I'm sure we're all familiar with cycles of change, that life eats life. I just wanted to make light of some attitudes that I still come up against when it comes to what I eat. I have plenty of vegetarian friends.

Like I said I take full responsibilty for what I do.

Glad to see the opinions rolling in biggrin biggrin


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:us meat eaters can be open for criticism but there is a difference between such and the preaching that we get from many vegetarians
being in Oregon, a while ago, my aunt took me through some virgin forest. passing through it, there was this incredible tingly feeling...cell phones don't work in those forests...i would say that it may not be a familiar consciousness, but that there is one there (imo)
even being vegitarian causes land destruction and who is anyone to say how much is acceptable and what is not...we just need to be more responsible with our farming techniques


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:.. and does all that mean that we also do hurt our little helpers friends, if we smoke em? umm

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:when they were picked and dehydrated

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Icarus
GOLD Member since Sep 2003

member


Total posts: 165
Posted:I am all for not preaching if it is just a matter of personal choice. Eating meat is not a matter of personal choice it is hurting and killing animals because of a five minute taste satisfaction. As far as i can tell (for people who live within a reasonable distance from shop or can grow there own food) there is a very viable alternative.

One of my least favourite arguments from meat eaters (and from experience it is usually people who eat meat who start preaching to me) is that my body evolved to eat meat. Fine. We have also evolved enough brains and soul to invent an exellent substitute and analise our diet. And to consider the feelings of our fellow animals.

I will keep quiet on issues that do not effect those i care about.


xox


... simplify ...

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