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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:So, i'm not usually a big fan of the youtube, but i was cruising around after watching the vid Pele posted and came accross this little cutie. ubblove

*shakes head* She's a better dancer than me! she gonna be one snakey lady when she grows up....


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:She certainly has some moves!!! but i just find it wrong to see a kid belly dancing shrug

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:mmm... i did find the camera angles a bit off-putting, but my bellydance teacher has been dancing since she was six. and there are kids classes at all of the schools i've seen about.

not to mention, it's not the sexual, seedy thing that people seem to think it is, it's origins in middle-eastern culture are in folk-dance *shrugs*


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:i kind of worded it badly, but amazing children scare me...or rather pushy parents do...

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:eh some kids are just naturally good, and i hated them all, stupid smart kids with talent

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:Why should that it being old, and folk based, in any way imply it is not sexual in nature?

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Mascot
Mascot

enthusiast

Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 301
Posted:ditto

makes me think of the grandfather muttering about his granddaughter.
"you kids think you invented sex" ubblol


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:how many other folk-dances can you think of that're sexual in nature? the zorba? that weird thigh-slapping thing the germans do? i think not. "belly-dance" for want of a better term is the dance performed by middle-eastern men and women, young and old, at celebrations like weddings and birthday parties... the seedy side is a western corruption.



disclaimer: the above is not ment to be antagonistic in any way shape or form, we're not ment to be having a discussion on belly-dance, we're ment to be watching the cute kid.

EDITED_BY: FoxInDocs (1168462746)


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:again I see that as flawed logic, just because other folk dances (that you or I can think of) are not particularly sexual doesn't not mean that there can't be exceptions.



I wasn't trying to push that bellydancing definitely is intended to be sexual, I'm trying to suppress years of media influence here, that push the cheeky gypsy vixen/egyptian bar girl stereotype in movies, and be as objective and unbiased as I can be.

I'm just being picky about the points thus far that are trying to put across that it isn't.



<thinks some more, ok, no the dance style in itself isn't the problem, I'll have to post this...>



Though, thinking about it I guess I was compelled to post after your first comment because of something one of my old female housemates used to say, that in context (clubbing) I agreed with, "the best female dancers, dance like they're having sex"



I realise the irony putting myself up for flaming here in the same way I would flame those who condemned Elvis for his "sexual gyrations", which I'd always thought was laughable, but it is part of the reason he had such a huge following of swooning girls.



This also links in to the Tweens and what you can do about it thread.

And the song and dance routines, and swimsuit sections of those insane (sick) American child beauty pageants, where their parents kill their kids childhood and gloss and dress up and force them to perform in mimicry of adults.



you could simply say, I find 'tweens' and this video disturbing.



I try my best to be as open minded on things as I possibly can be, but I could not help but be disturbed by that footage and think it to be exploitative.



I don't doubt that she quite likely learnt her skill by her own choice, simply because she enjoyed it. she will have no idea whatsoever of the possible sexual connotations, but it comes across as exploitative none the less to be displayed so.



It's sad I have to think this way, in this post I meant absolutely no offence to you. In ways I genuinly love the fact that you just saw the dancer, the skill. You just went 'omgwow that kids amazing", she IS incredibly good at what she's doing, and yes she will " be one snakey lady when she grows up",that in itself could be taken sexually, irrespective of gender. but once she's grown up she will have the power to choose who to and where to show her skill to, how it can be perceived,what that means, and will understand the ramifications.



I could have ignored all of the above and just say she's a great dancer too, but the part of me that's just done a child protection course couldn't (actually, even before then, but now I have things have been reinforced, and some other perceptions learnt), I'm sorry to keep haul your thread this way.



Sorry to be a downer on what should be a cool thing (a talented child), hopefully I will never have to write such a difficult post on HoP again. I can see myself copping some real flack for this, and am debating posting it at all, but the 'sit back, play it safe' demographic annoy the hell out of me.

EDITED_BY: Yakumo (1168491787)


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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:i did agree that the camera angles were quite tasteless, and i did debate posting it because of that, but the cuteness outweighed it.

I'm a belly dancer myself. I *despise* the implication that my choice of dance style turns me into a stripper with a theme as it's just *not* the case.

I doubt that you'd have had the same complaint's if i'd posted a video of a cute little ballarina or irish dancer.

did i mention we're not having a discussion?


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZrqhvvHB5M
br>



"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:I don't view belly dancers as strippers with a theme, or strippers of any sort.



I guess a stripper could be classed as 'a dancer who's sole intention is to provoke sexual thought', so it's the intent that matters.



the original intent of belly dancing (perhaps, we'll never know the original creators real inner thoughts), or at least certainly the intent of many of it's practitioners, was (is) simply to find movements that fit the music, &or perhaps play with and manipulate the body in the way we play with our skill toys now, circles, waves, isolations etc..



but bellydancing is dance that can (and does) easily provoke sexual though (in both sexes of all persuasions), it is dance that uses sexual motion, I would argue that that latter point is a fact.



I have a friend that teaches belly dancing btw, if that makes you feel any better not having this discussion with me.



I wouldn't view ballet and Irish dance as sexual by nature, they are devoid of sexual motion. Ballet can certainly be used to express such things _if intended_, I find it hard to imagine how Irish dance could though. (all of this is of course excluding fetishists, some people get turned on by balloons even ubblol )

EDITED_BY: Yakumo (1168495122)


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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:well if we're excluding fetishists, you shouldn't have any problem with my little belly dancer.

"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:"This dance was rarely intended to be sexual, but to be a display of a women's femininity and grace."



from this informative essay.



and this: "bellydancing was performed by women for women." from this one.


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:Clearly the implication was the number of people who would find ballet, or Irish dancing in general something that caused sexual thought, is significantly small enough such that it would be classed a specific fetish.

The number of people who would find the art and motion of bellydancing something to cause sexual thought is going to be easily high enough to class as normal human behaviour.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:*hands up* been to Turkey! and yeah, they know it's seen as sensual there.

And wasn't it made up by the women in harems to amuse themselves?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:sensual yes, sexual no.



and yes, it was, and apparently also as a means of aiding child-bith...



and yes, childbirth is caused by sex, but i don't think a woman in a screaming, writhing, lump of blood and mess on a bed is, in itself, very sexually attactive.



ugh... how do i move this shizz to discussion?

EDITED_BY: FoxInDocs (1168497262)


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:oh i agree with the sensual not sexual...still find it uncool for a 5 year old to be "sensual"

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:*shrugs* i don't think it's a bad thing for a young girl to have an awareness of and love for her body...

"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted:they're both probably very good informative articles, I don't actually care to argue them as..



 Written by: Yakumo

the original intent of belly dancing (perhaps, we'll never know the original creators real inner thoughts), or at least certainly the intent of many of it's practitioners, was (is) simply to find movements that fit the music, &or perhaps play with and manipulate the body in the way we play with our skill toys now, circles, waves, isolations etc..





the point of that and what followed was to show that I could see how sex was (&or may ) not be the intent. but sadly intent is not actually relevant here, it's the perception of the audience that is the problem.





the part in brackets was merely a pedantic joke aside, to try add a little levity, as no matter what history records, or even if you go back in time and interview the 'one true orriginal creator' of anything, you could never truly prove that what they truly actually thought on inception of an idea wasn't something other than what they say.



I just saw something I felt was disturbing, and felt I had to call it so, and could not unfortunately without explanation.



you've already now stated you had reservations about posting it yourself so you clearly do understand the perspective I've been trying to represent.



[edit: sorry, stumbled on this looking up something else, may as well mention it as it's relevant http://www.ketisharif.com/healthbenefitscourse.html
"Bellydancing originated as a fertility rite thousands of years ago" not everything you read is true but that goes both ways. ]


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Yakumo
Yakumo

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Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted: Written by: FoxInDocs

*shrugs* i don't think it's a bad thing for a young girl to have an awareness of and love for her body...





There isn't!! the problem arises as there is something MASSIVELY wrong with that being manifested visually on public display!!


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Yakumo
Yakumo

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Location: Oxfordshire
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Total posts: 1237
Posted:sensual /&#712;s&#603;n&#643;u&#601;l/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sen-shoo-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective
1. pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly.
2. lacking in moral restraints; lewd or unchaste.
3. arousing or exciting the senses or appetites.
4. worldly; materialistic; irreligious.
5. of or pertaining to the senses or physical sensation; sensory.
6. pertaining to the philosophical doctrine of sensationalism.


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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted: Written by: Yakumo


you clearly do understand the perspective I've been trying to represent.



what can i say, i'm an intelligent person who understands societies perception and the chronic misrepresentation of this beautiful dance.

i maintain, however, that it's perfectly appropriate for a child to learn bellydance. It's a dance form that promotes awareness and love of ones own body, no matter what shape or size, as well as being good excersize. and i think that because of this, apon reaching adolesence she is far less likely to have problems with self confidence and eating disorders than would, for example, a ballarina.


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted: Written by: Yakumo


I wouldn't view ballet and Irish dance as sexual by nature, they are devoid of sexual motion.



Irish dance not sexual?? didnt anyone else find Michael Flatleys mullet tremendously arousing ??? tongue


anyway...err.... well it did look a bit wierd - reminded me a bit of one of those computer animated dancing babies - and if i hypothetically had a belly dancing 5 yrs old i wouldnt be parading her (or him for that matter) around on TV so randoms could post footage on youtube... but i suppose we are going to see this stuff on an largely unregulated internet. Weird, wacky, wonderful, and perverse. its all there.

but as to the bellydance/sensual thing - goes back to the Intentions vs Actions (& interpretation thereof) arguement that hasnt been successful resolved on HoP yet cool


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Yakumo
Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire
Member Since: 31st May 2006
Total posts: 1237
Posted: Written by:

i maintain, however, that it's perfectly appropriate for a child to learn bellydance. It's a dance form that promotes awareness and love of ones own body, no matter what shape or size, as well as being good excersize. and i think that because of this, apon reaching adolesence she is far less likely to have problems with self confidence and eating disorders than would, for example, a ballarina.



I do not disagree with your principles there, the idea is admirable, but the difficulty would be teaching them a modesty akin to (but not identical to) nudity for their own protection, as a child is not able to distinguish many things, and you are responsible for them even when you are not there.

therein would lie a conflict, how can you give them self confidence in public with this skill, yet teach them they cannot do it in public till x age for their protection?



 Written by:

chronic misrepresentation

I can't agree with at I'm afraid, the motions match, it's like 1:1 correlation.

I know full well there is far more to it than just the hip motions and 'grinding', but bellydancing does focus on that far more than any other dance form (arguably any others that do that in part, are more modern and have just borrowed from bellydancing?)

Please remember I've already said I agree with my friend that this is actually something that makes the absolute best dancers, and that's not from a perving point of view either.

but it's not something I consider suitable for a child to perform publicly (and tho I had not mentioned it before) in such atire.

I have stupidly posted after getting emotional on the subject and stayed up till 7.16am trying to write these replies.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:yeah, i think it's appropriate. but i don't think it's appropriate to put one on television.

foxie; i'm arguing against you in the hope you'll come to japan and kick my arse tongue


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:honey, i have 29 cents in my bank account, ima not going anywhere to kick anyones arse... hug hug hug

"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:as for "modesty"

she's five maybe six years old. kids that age run around nekkid all the time, i know i certainly did and i'm one of the most modestly dressed people i know.

and "in such attire"

she's wearing a costume. i know that. you know that. i'm sure she doesn't wear that all the time and therefore she knows that. what's the problem?

and besides... it's pants, a short top with some jinglies on it and sneakers for christs sake... it's not like she's wearing a push-up bra and a g-string under some floaty see-though skirt thing....


"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:i didn't run around nekkid at 5. i got told off for it redface
i still distincly remember being told off for wandering around with my shirt off and not understatanding why the the boys could do it, but i couldn't. frown

ok, im off topic! so very off topic! ubbrollsmile


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FoxInDocs
FoxInDocs

Pooh-Bah
Location: Adelaide, SA
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1846
Posted:is there a topic?

"i am exotic, and must keep my arms down" - Rougie

"i don't understand what penises have to do with getting married" - Foxie

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:uuuuuuuuummmmm,

this is chat, so NO! biggrin ubbrollsmile


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Page: 12

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