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Forums > Other Toys > So - hackysack - whats your view?

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strugz
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

strugz

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Posted:after a weekend with the boy G me and meg have been arguing about this artform..........

whilst i recognise is does require skill we cant seem to pin down the argument we keep having on msn so a little help would be appreciated:


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Location: Edin-borrow.

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Posted: Written by: mcp


Plus, the difficulty of something depends on how you look at it. If you think poi isn't difficult it's because the entry level difficulty is low, not because you can't do difficult things with it.

I assume a hard ball of a size slightly bigger than 100mm would be much much harder than a hackysack. (Or freestyle football skills of the same ilk.)



nice try, but it's not contradictory. I never said I looked at things that way. I think hacky sack is harder than poi, as is juggling and XMA.

There is no 'final' difficulty level for any prop. Not any standard entry difficulty level. Different things will be easier for different people. And sometimes the people least adept at an activity will choose to excel at it, and those naturally talented won't have the motivation for it.

You can't definitively state a difficulty level for anything, unless you use the entry level, because you can learn a prop/activity for the rest of your life. always setting new goals for yourself. (the old mastery debate I had with simian. joys.)

You might say that juggling three poi is harder than juggling three clubs, because they are harder to throw and catch.

doesn't really matter thou, cos foot juggling is still cooler than hacky-bag and more hardcore. tongue

yakumo: yeah I try, but it takes a long time for me, I have no natural gymnastic ability. two ish years of gymnastics and what do I have? A one handed cartwheel, an extremely bad roundoff, a back tuck off high things and a very dodgy into-a-foam-pit side-tuck / aerial. I've also learned the 'ragdoll' trampoline style. le sigh. Maybe this year I will achieve the flexibility and jump power... as well as core body power... I suppose I can almost barani... off a trampoline...


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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:we should have played jump off things and try not to get squished wink

I can just about do a butterfly, flip off the floor, nearly hold a handstand (definitely going to work on that more), as for the rest I've never yet been able to break the going over backwards mental block (yet!), and don't have the padding to try, so I think your further on than me, the tucks and barani sound cool smile


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Posted:yeah I can do a bad b kick, in one direction, I'm gonna work on that cos I think it's doable, looks good when clean and well easy. Can't hold a handstand, but I really want one.. but keep feeling that I don't want to abuse my wrists too much, (cos I want to still be able to do staff) so haven't done much. Don't really want to be a B twist ever, they look quite silly. I saw a beautiful cartwheel then aerial with full box splits on possibly the worse r&b music video ever.

when gymnastics starts up again next week I going to work on handstand pirouettes and weird capoeira cartwheels.

I suppose I can do a handspring too. Haven't practised for a while thou... and a head spring almost on the floor, but easily on blocks.

I just wanna flip thou... redface wink ubblove


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:lol! me too! (flip)

I'd be more worried about wrists doing everything else other than handstands really..

gwaan start a 'The Body Toy' thread wink

I don't know of ANY kind of gymnastics club anywhere near all of Oxford :-/ never heard of anywhere having facilities.
My next mission though, is blood donoring to afford synergy and then selling kidenys as I'd love to accept evans invite to Ireland.


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

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Posted:GAHHHHHHH!
*head explodes*

can people PLEASE state clearly what they are talking about when using terms like "hackysack", "footbag", "Hacky sackers"???? this thread is seriously doing my head in because i dont know if anyone is actually using terms in the proper sense.

 Written by: wiki

The term footbag is also the generic name for the sports which use the footbag. The main varieties are freestyle footbag, footbag net, and circle kick. Both the footbag and the sports that use it are sometimes referred to as Hacky Sack or hackey sack, though Hacky Sack is a registered trademark of Wham-O, Inc., and refers specifically to the product with the same name.



is that clear for everyone? the term "hacky sack" has no meaning apart from a brand name? ok...

so, meg, could you please elaborate for me if you're talking about freestyle footbaging or circle kicking when you say;

 Written by: mcp

I think hacky sack is the easy version of chinlone. Chinlone is the absolute win.



because in those games of chilone on the vid you posted they're mostlykicking the ball up then doing only one dexterity (moving your leg around the ball) where as the vid i posted there is over three dexes from the one kickup, i dont see how you figure one dex with a big ball is easier than three dexes with a tiny bag? and yes you do have to cradle the bag, if you dont it will bounce off just like a normal ball.

 Written by: mcp

...I think it's an awesome sport and majorly more impressive than FS footbag cos it's an actual sport...



footbag is a sport! it has competitions and world rankings! i was at the Australian championships last week! GOSH! mad2
 Written by: mcp

...grace is part of the sport



 Written by: wikipedia

Advanced freestylers choreograph routines to music, much like rhythmic gymnastics or figure skating.



 Written by: mascot


A normal footbag is filled with sand, for catching and throwing.

A haccy-sack is filled with beads for kicking between friends and the two are very diffrent.



umm a normal footbag can be filled with anything, beans sand, plastic pellets, lead pellets, beans, pebbles, whatever the person who makes it chooses to fill it with. some fillings are better for certain types of playing, such as lead pellets make the bag heavier so you can have a smaller bag that still has enough weight to be able to stall on your toe.

i dont know what a hackysack is filled with, i've never seen a real one in my life but i'm sure you could google Wham-0 and ask them what they put in their bags. smile


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Posted:"..grace is part of the sport

...

Advanced freestylers choreograph routines to music, much like rhythmic gymnastics or figure skating."

er, just cos they choreograph it to music, doesn't mean it's graceful? I've seen these routines and generally they look about the same as an epileptic boy on a hotplate.

I was comparing chinlone to both, since it involves a single person element and a group element.

Yeah, Competitive darts has world championships but you won't see me calling it a sport. And thou dance isn't a sport, I respect dancers as if they were athletes.

Hacky sack has a meaning for everyone that uses it. Just like hoover and dyson does for cleaning carpets and googling for information on the internet.

First: I didn't post that vid. How can I think three 'dexes' is harder than one? Because the chinlone ball is solid and therefore harder to catch, whereas footbag balls hit your foot at full speed and then stay there, due to their construction. It's harder to look graceful than it is to look like frog in a blender, plus some of the chinlone kicks are done blind, which I personally have not seen in footbag, probably because I've been put off watching footbag videos by their sheer awfulness.

One of the things I like about chinlone is that it's done by adults. Plus you clearly see in the background that a bunch of monks have turned up to watch them. win.


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"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

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Posted:haha, so monks automatically make it better? ubblol

 Written by: mcp

Yeah, Competitive darts has world championships but you won't see me calling it a sport. And thou dance isn't a sport, I respect dancers as if they were athletes.



umm, i take it you haven't heard of dancesports then? imho i think your definition of 'sport' is a little too harsh.

 Written by: mcp

First: I didn't post that vid



>< sorry.

 Written by: mcp

Because the chinlone ball is solid and therefore harder to catch, whereas footbag balls hit your foot at full speed and then stay there, due to their construction. It's harder to look graceful than it is to look like frog in a blender, plus some of the chinlone kicks are done blind, which I personally have not seen in footbag, probably because I've been put off watching footbag videos by their sheer awfulness.



but they're not catching the chinlone ball, they're kicking it arent they? i'm not sure where you got the idea that bags can "hit your foot at full speed and stay there" because this certainly isnt correct, otherwise i'd be as good at footbag as you are at contact.;) in Chinlone they're going over it once or twice with their leg then kicking it whereas with footbag a freestyler might go around it four times off the one kick before stalling it again, that takes a lot more precise muscle memory/training to be accurate enough and then to catch it at the end or move into another trick seems much more difficult to me.

i dont think its correct to compare chinlone to both freestyle and circle kicking because they're very different, personally i would say chinlone is basically competative circle kicking, they all get turns to have breaks and try to show off a bit. in chinlone although they do do a short kick by themselves ( for what? 20seconds?) they can then just pass it off to another player OR they can make a badly aimed kick meaning they cant reach it any more, but its still acceptable. whereas freestyle footbag there is one one guy pumping his legs for all they're worth for the duration of an entire song with only himself to rely on.

imo footbag has just as much flow and grace as contact staff, perhaps you just cant see that because you havent done both yourself.


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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:Only way to one up monks watching is ninja's competing.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Posted:Yeah they do. Monks are cool. They've dedicated themselves to becoming better people, I respect their views on things.

Wow dance sports, much less impressive than sports aerobics. and that doesn't have my respect either.

Of course my definition is harsh. Do you know who I am? wink Personally I would take all the 'games' out of the olympics, as I don't think they belong there. The olympics is for sports like athletics, horse manipulation and rowing and such like. Not tennis and football and hockey.

I've used a footbag and that's exactly what did happen. It certainly didn't bounce off.

Plus chinlone has the added difficulty of the hard ball and the looking good part. So they don't push themselves to the limit of how many times can they swirl their leg in the air before kicking it again. Which frankly, looks as good as a numbers juggler staring at the ceiling and then shuffling around after their balls while whirling their hands as fast as they can.

"one guy pumping his legs for all they're worth"

Yeah I think you just summed it up in that sentence.

I think then you haven't seen any graceful contact staff. which is a shame. But at least we try and think of grace in our movements. And some of us pretend like we're in control of our limbs. Personally comparing footbag and contact is a huge insult to me. Not least because contact isn't primarily done by one social demographic.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

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Posted:you probably used a sand bag, personally i dont know anyone that uses them because they are pretty stupid and have no bounce off you feet.

so would you say one footbager pumping his legs for all their worth should be in the Olympics then, since they're basically doing endurance and precision atheletics without the travelling?

i dont see how a hard ball is an "added difficulty", its easier to kick because its bigger so they dont have to be quite so accurate with their feet as you do a footbag, and even if you do do a poor kick in chinlone theres someone else there to take over.

it seems to me the only reason you think chinlone is better is because the ball is more visible and they do crowd pleasing tricks. how about we just set it on fire and then we can please all audience demographics? smile

footbag is played by one social demographic as much as twirling is, i think thats a ridiculous thing to suggest.


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Mascot


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Posted:The difficulty thing is a side issue. Footbag is clearly ridiculously hard and I have no idea about Chinlone but I can believe it's pretty hard too. The fact that a footbag isn't rigid and is thus easier to catch just raises the bar of what can be done. "3 dexes" in Majestics terminology wouldn't be possible in Chinlone. The two are very diffrent disciplines.

I think the difficulty issue is a diversion and an excuse for rejecting the discipline. The real reason Meg doesn't like footbag (and it's not like she's hiding it) is that it's supremely ungraceful. It has a jerky, acquired aesthetic which means that unless you're interested it does indeed look like an epileptic dancing on a hot plate. Hell I can't even tell what they're doing with the thing.

Hard it may be, graceful it is not.

I think it depends who you juggle for. Some people juggle with an eye to performing, and impressing others. Other people juggle because they enjoy the challenge and like it irrespective of what others think. All jugglers are somewhere between these two extremes. I put a lot of time into some fairly serious numbers juggling, I knew it would never look good in performance but I liked doing it. I think the same is probably true of footbaggers, mostly they know it'll never make a good performance (except to other footbaggers) but they just like doing it.


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Mascot


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Posted:Those who know me will know that for the last 4 months or so I have practised nothing except footbag. I do seem to be rather running down my own discipline down here.



I think footbag has a lot of untapped potential, particuarly multi-footbag using the hands, elbows and head as well.



Give me a year or two and I'll post a video on youtube that will settle this once and for all. Then you'll all be like "Oh my god your grace and skill defy comprehension how could we all have been so foolish" and I'll be like "I'd love to stay and talk but I have young attractive female footbag groupies to attend to".



And then you'll be sorry.



Oh yes

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Posted:Hey Mr Majestik, congrats on making it to the Australian championships. beerchug

I'll buy into the grace idea ( or lack thereof ) as being a reason to not like footbag, it's a valid point. But the difficulty issue is completely irrelevant, as anybody who's spent more than 15 minutes working with a footbag is surely going to agree that there's a high degree of skill and commitment needed to get anywhere with the thing.

When it comes to the demographic as to who actually plays with footbags, so frickin' what. Footbag is dominated by "skinny white guys", get over it, fat Asian girls are more than welcome to play if they want to.

Burma's a Buddhist country, there's Monks everywhere, most every male in the country enters the temple at some point in their lives, it's kind of like mandatory Buddhist service , and as a result, you'll find monks watching damn near everything. Heck, in Cambodia, I've seen monks watching kickboxing.

Aside: Like Thailand, Cambodia's national sport is kickboxing, but it's been rejected by the younger generation in favour of English premier league football, which I've also seen monks watching.


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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:not that I understand this 'dex' thing, but I've watched that 'sick3' vid about 10 times now, comparing it to various bits of the chinlon video and it still looks like an an epileptic attempting chinlon to me..

Plus there's that added danger factor, you don't see people trapping their toes in the cage with footbag ubblol


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Stout
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Stout

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Posted:The sticking to your toe thing is good for a giggle when it happens, but it's not all that dangerous providing you know how to hop.

Those balls with a more open weave are usually made of plastic. I have a real rattan ball sitting on my windowsill, and the holes in it are tiny. The plastic ones are preferred nowadays, as evidenced my all the looking around in Thailand for a "real" oldschool ball.

I had a good kick around with it yesterday, and quickly remembered that if you're going to play solo with one of these things, it's better to play on sand or grass because if you screw up ( which I did lots ) you're running down the street chasing the thing.


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mcp
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mcp

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Posted:Mr Majestic:

"so would you say one footbager pumping his legs for all their worth should be in the Olympics then, since they're basically doing endurance and precision atheletics without the travelling?"

If it was endurance, it would be for more than the length of a song. I don't think there are any 'precise' athletic sports. All the throwing jumping and other events have a reasonable landing area.

surely with a big ball you have to make bigger movement to get your leg over it etc... I don't know if there is a solo version of chinlone, other than for display.

Is it a ridiculous thing to suggest? I thought it was only done by white teenage american boys in small cities towns originally. Cos I'd only ever seen videos of and heard about teen white boy footbagers. Now I discover it's also done by australians.

A few videos on hop will show that spinning isn't stuck to one demographic.

And you've yet to show any evidence that it's done by anyone else, so I don't see how it's a ridiculous thing to suggest.

I think chinlone is better because it's graceful, it's a national past-time with traditional roots, and is a team game with non-traditional scoring.

I dislike activities or so called 'games' based on modern made up toys, like footbag, subuteo, yo!-stick, and whatever else. And yes I do dislike both poi and staff for some of the same reasons too.


the boy g:

Yeah, I don't think you have to set out with the goal of impressing others just to look/be graceful in an activity. Grace is it's own reward when doing something.

Plus I wouldn't mind seeing a multi-footbag routine, it would be sorta like a: what-multi-ball-contact-jugglers would do if they didn't always hold on to them routine.

"attractive female footbag groupies" ...? errrrrrrr I think you need to reexamine your motives... wink


stout:

er yeah but girls don't want to play. Doesn't that tell you something about it? In fact, I don't know how old matt is, but he may be the first non-teenager (the old way) that I've ever seen doing even vaguely similar stuff.

I love monks.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:Sorry to fuel the fire but there are precise Olympic sports, there is shooting, and archery.

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Stout
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Stout

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Posted:Originally, footbag, or some variation of it was a hippy game, Wham-0 just tried to commercialise it by putting out a product called a hacky-sac, that's all. Traditional cultures all over the world have played kicking games like this, be it with a or shuttlecock, so to class it as a white American thing is inaccurate.

Sometimes girls want to play, we've had several enter our hack circles, but I agree it is predominantly male dominated.

And maybe the young male domination of this sport is the reason grace isn't valued, from what I remember of being a teenager, had someone tried to get "dancy" with an activity that usually involves too much swearing and spitting, their buddies would have questioned his sexuality. " Nice pirouette dude...what kind of underwear do you have on ?" Hence the image problems I mentioned a few posts back.

I don't see why a style that focuses on grace couldn't be developed, maybe it has, or as Mascot states, in in the process of being developed.

Who's Matt ? Mascot I presume

I'd never kicked a footbag until I was 38 smile


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Mark Husted
GOLD Member since Mar 2006

Mark Husted

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Posted:Cool, a subject I would definitely have a say on:-) I've been into the freestyle version of footbag for over 5 years now. I've shred with many pros and believe that this IS in fact an art form, it is just hard to appreciate for two reasons.
1. You don't know what the hell we are doing when we shred, all you see is a blur.
2. Most shred behind doors and don't get any exposure to the public that has no idea the sport exists.
So then....if there is any negativity towards this sport, art, whatever you want to call it, it's probably because your too lazy and fat to get anywhere with the bag, and like most people, if you can't do it, you don't like it. Footbag has been one of the most physically beneficial things I have ever done. It's juggling with your feet for crying out loud. I leave you all with a video to view if you haven't seen what the sport has evolutionized to. Five time back to back world champion Vasek Klouda. You can tell this guy eats shreddies every day.


The video quality isn't the best, but the shredding is:-)
Mark
Have footbag, will shred.


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Mascot


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Posted:There are pro footbaggers??????

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Mark Husted
GOLD Member since Mar 2006

Mark Husted

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Posted:I used to be pro:-) But then I joined the Marines and was out of the game for four years. Trying to get the title back. Takes many hours to become pro, but when you do, you get free shoes, bags, and get to travel:-) I sugguest you visit www.flipsider.com
Mark
Have footbag, will shred.


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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

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Posted:You'll like that vid Mascot, he does some multi bag smile



He is undoubtedly amazing at what he does.



I still think we should grade them on the epilograph though, and in that Mascot and he aren't that far apart ubblol nana



it's always fun watching mad people doing insane things and having fun smile



Is it called shredding because if you stood them on their heads while they do those moves it looks like a rather complicated food blender?



Joking asside, I spotted a Frisbee out, sadly I bet he still only made 50 of whatever the lowest denomination of currency, in whatever country that was, is.

And I predict walking difficulty within..10 years? I tend to think a lot of the movement, and high speed off angle rotations in footbag don't look safe for long term practice, anyone know any grown up hardcore footbaggers? or can we get a physio or doc lightning in here?

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Mark Husted
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Mark Husted

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Posted:Okay so whoever said that Chinlone is harder than footbag does not know what they are talking about. Did you happen to notice that the footbag is about ten times smaller than a Chinlone ball?????? haha just wondering.
Mark
Have footbag, will shred.


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Mascot


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Posted: Written by: Yakumo


You'll like that vid Mascot, he does some multi bag smile

He is undoubtedly amazing at what he does.

I still think we should grade them on the epilograph though, and in that Mascot and he aren't that far apart ubblol nana





whats an epilograph?

I can't watch video's unfortunately, I'm at work

and whats a frisbee out?


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Mark Husted
GOLD Member since Mar 2006

Mark Husted

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Posted:Haha, I have got to tell my friends who are pro that comment about being a complicated blender upside down. You had me laughing pretty good:-) Shredding is actually the term used for "freestyle footbag." The same with "Poi" instead of Poi "ing" we "spin."
Mark
Have footbag, will shred.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Posted:True Yakumo, long term, footbagging can do alot of damage. Out of the group that I used to play over the net with, and all of whom went to the world's in SF in 2004, every one of them is complaining about knee and hip problems.

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Yakumo
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Yakumo

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Posted:I knew what you meant when you said shred, and shredding, I just couldn't fathom it's origin, with poi it's pretty obvious where 'spinning' came from. Glad I managed to get a laugh biggrin



Stout - sadly can't say I'm surprised at all, I worry about jugglers kicking clubs up tbh, though when they get better at it they don't tend to stick their leg out to the side half as much. I was concerned for Mascot when I saw him footbagging and could only see it getting worse the more he learned, more revolutions, and the faster he got.

The martial art I study (goju) puts great emphasis on correct alignment of, and not overly abusing, unnecessarily impacting, the joints, for strength, power, stability and health right through old age.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Stout <- I'll tell him.



light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

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Posted:Yakumo, yep, a friend of mine with his blackbelt in tae kwon do, plus 20 years experience absolutely refused to play with us when we played daily, he cited the mechanics of some of the kicks, and how they violate every rule of common sense when it comes to martial arts, from him, I got the term "unnatural" which I used in a previous post. I listened to him, somewhat, and used his thinking to limit just how much I'd overdo it in a given day.

Richee, it's a small world after all, one of the guys I used to play with went on that Starburst tour, and claims he got Vasek started with the footbag, if you see him ask him if he remembers Jeremy form Canada. I still have a few of those Starburst footbags around, seeing as how I bought about 10 of them from Jeremy, They're my favourite bag for kicking around in a circle.


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

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Posted: Written by: Mark Husted


So then....if there is any negativity towards this sport, art, whatever you want to call it, it's probably because your too lazy and fat to get anywhere with the bag, and like most people, if you can't do it, you don't like it.



So then why do so many people like professional football? I mean wow, that's like the utterly most mature and considered opinion I've ever heard on hop. Did that take you long to come up with? And here's me thinking after reading the first bit of your video thread that you were resonably sound, more fool me.

Heh, maybe I can produce a counter argument: I can't play or do: Rugby, archery, shorinji kempo, capoeira, gymnastics, XMA flips and tricks, free climbing, speed climbing, any musical instrument, acrobalance, base jumping, diving, silks and many many other things. And yet magically, in contradiction to your argument, I can still appreciate them! ZOMG!

Maybe I don't like footbag for much the same reasons I don't like morris dancing, it looks retarded.

Hey look, you're a footbagger, but you've just magically turned off my caring about any of your posts or arguments! Well done!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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