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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.

now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.

how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.

I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting ubbcrying

for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at http://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
br>
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too biggrin

i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:


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Posted:just some generally intereting aviation based sites

www.greenerbydesign.org.uk

www.sustainableaviation.co.uk

EDITED_BY: flying_on_fire (1169643551)


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:i think you're totally missing my point, josh

i'm not pointing the finger at anyone. i'm trying to raise awareness so that people can make their own choices about their own lifestyles.

i'm fully aware that the majority of pollution comes from industry. but industry would not have its markets if WE chose to do things differently. and if we do so, and they do so, our govenments will eventually respond (in some way rolleyes ) and have some influence over developing governments.

so what if their 'green' policies are market driven. as long as we've still got a world to complain about, then i'm much happier if they choose to be more green.

i hope i get to see you again some day, and talk about this face to face. but i doubt it will happen frown


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Posted:if you are interested on effects of contails (the white trails from aircraft)
http://www.cate.mmu.ac.uk/documents/brochures/christine.pdf


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:those'r positive links, FiF. smile
but it takes more than an intention when many airlines fly older aircraft, traveller numbers are increasing, and it will take years before their recommendations/plans take effect. years which IMO we don't have.

shrug


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Posted:tom just as a small point but ships are more polluting than planes because they have a greater drag against them
trains would be gd tho


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Posted:even the older aircraft are very fuel economic and the airliner are all updating to avoid tax suppliments on the older planes

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted: Written by: flying_on_fire


even the older aircraft are very fuel economic



eek

thats just plain not true. i can dig out figures from earlier in the thread if you like....


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Posted:plz do il get some from aviation website see if they concur
=)


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Posted:just wondering blue do u drive?

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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: flying_on_fire


tom just as a small point but ships are more polluting than planes because they have a greater drag against them



But ships don't spend a significant fraction of their energy output achieving and maintaining hydrodynamic lift...?

I'd like to see the sums comparing the two. For prefs scaled to the energy expenditure for every 1kg of stuff moved.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted: Written by:

according to the UK department for Transport in 2005





UK Public transport Transport mode / Fuel consumption (Miles per gallon per passenger)

Buses (national) / 98

Passenger rail (diesel) / 182

Cars/ 2.1 - 220 (2.1 for single driver bugatti veyron, 220 for 5 people in a toyota prius)

Air short haul / 40

Air long haul / 66



then divide the planes by about 3 so as to take into account the additional greenhouse effect they cause



Air Short Haul / 13

Air Long Haul / 22



The factor of three (2.7 for the less mathematically inept) is the multiplier recommended by the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change to calculate the total greenhouse effect caused by flying rather than purely the C02 emissions.



There have already been a couple of links from this thread to papers explaining why this is necessary... here's another



IPCC 2001 report - aviation and the global atmosphere







thus showing that planes are the least fuel efficient mode of transport. and this from a government that appears to support the expansion of air travel.



as far as planes causing more damage being speculation, the majority of reports and studies indicate that it is not. ALL reports i have found that don't link it directly to extra damage are funded by the aviation industry umm . so i reckon those figures hold(with the extra division).

EDITED_BY: bluecat (1169648423)


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:yes, i drive.

i have far below average mileage(i last filled up my tank in early december), and cycle or take public transport where possible. 90% at least of my journeys are with others in the car, improving my miles per gallon per passenger to something like 100-120, based on the table given on page 4 on this thread, and by working back over my miles in the past year

why do you ask? wink


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Posted:Modern aircraft achieve fuel efficiencies of 3.5 litres per 100 passenger km

that would make them a hell of alot more efficient than ur data says
http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/environment/fuel_efficiency.htm
br>(this is the page i got this from)


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Posted:cars manage approx 0.2%fuel economy planes arnt allowed to fly with less than 60%

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Posted:and i cant back that up here cos it wont let me link from power point presentations

i supose i could give the actual jurnal if wanted by anyone smile

EDITED_BY: flying_on_fire (1169652108)


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:please smile

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:3.5 litres per 100 passenger kilometres = 67 miles per gallon per passenger. hardly that different to 66, wouldn't you say?



as for fuel economy? what exactly do you mean by that phrase that is different to 'amount of fuel burned per passenger per mile'??



just copy and paste from the powerpoint - i really want to see the figures...



and personally, i'm more inclined to beleive the department of transport, than an unregulated(no sign of a regulating body, or indeed of the background studies that provided the information on that website) non-independent industry body that aims for 2050 in many of its goals, as if by then nothing will have changed between now and then in terms of climate.



incidentally(the starred bits are the flagship facts from the website, with no sources given):



* New aircraft are 70% more fuel efficient than 40 years ago and 20% better than 10 years ago.

great smile an excellent step.

* The industry is aiming for a further 50% fuel efficiency improvement by 2020.

also great. now if only they could just hurry it up a little....

* Modern aircraft achieve fuel efficiencies of 3.5 litres per 100 passenger km.

see above

* The A380 and B787 are aiming for 3 litres per 100 passenger km better than a compact car!

how is this a 50% improvement on 3.5litres???? it also assumes that comapct cars will only ever have 1 person in them. the average compact car does ~38mpg(urban) 55mpg motorway. as soon a second person gets in that car its more efficient than the plane. the average number of people per car journey (uk) is 1.6. that takes the miles per passenger per gallon totals to 61/88.-slightly below for urban travel, but well above for long distance travel.



Air MPGs also fail to take into account the fuel costs of travelling to and from airports, and for the thousands and thousands of support vehicles. with these included in the totals, i am sure the figures would be way lower.



ah well...


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TinyPixie
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

TinyPixie

enthusiast
Location: in the clouds...

Total posts: 394
Posted:So I was watching one of those "how they do (insert strangely interesting subject here)" documentaries, and they showed you how huge container ships travel around the world delivering/ picking up various things such as food/ cosmetics/ clothes/ computers/ etc... Now I can't remember what the figures for the petrol comsumption of one of those things were per km, but I do remember that they were absoloutely astoundingly high! So, apart from all this air travel, lets consider how much fuel is used to get us our lovely oranges from israel, jumpers make in Pakistan, bananas from the Ivory Coast - man that's a huge carbon load!

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tim_marston


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Total posts: 614
Posted:flying on fire,you dont own an airline do ya?

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:One thing missing from today's discussion on MPG/passenger is the RF ( radiative forcing ) factor used to calculate the emissions from planes and their true contribution to global warming. I took that factor into account when I equated a flight to Asia as being equivalent to 6 years of driving, however I can't say that I have a firm grasp on the RF concept, other than simply barfing up the explanation given on the IPCC report.

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: bluecat


My dad and I are going to build an eco-arts centre, near inverness in scotland.



Nice cool Probably just as well - I'd be sorry to see you go from this neck of the woods but according to this, the south coast is among the first to go frown

 Written by: TinyPixie


So, apart from all this air travel, lets consider how much fuel is used to get us our lovely oranges from israel, jumpers make in Pakistan, bananas from the Ivory Coast - man that's a huge carbon load!



I've been thinking about this for a while: fair trade versus organic versus green, etc.
I know it's possible to do all 3 by buying locally but somewhere along the line sacrifices usually have to be made - either the goods themselves or to the environment.
It's good to be able to consume fair trade and/or organic produce but I doubt many people think about the miles often involved in doing so.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:mmhuh. i'm very pleased to have an excellent local farmers market. i've always been one to prefer seasonal vegetables, but i do miss the taste of pineapples and mangos now that i've gone a bit militant about it....

we'll have to actually see each other before i abandon the south coast, miss spanner!!!!! biggrin

ubblol


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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch

Total posts: 2387
Posted:Man this thread is moving fast! A couple of pages ago :
 Written by: FireTom

And how about HoP shipping airfreight?
Yet: Would you - as their customer - wait 3 weeks... wait... errm 3 MONTHS for your firestuff?



We know, and that's part of what we're working on. Fair cop! wink
I have 3 different prongs in mind for the attack on that item, but you're gonna have to wait to see any results. I hate making well intentioned statements that don't turn out due to some technicality.

George


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:I dont think I've missed your point Blue. I'm aware of how damaging air travel is, and Kate and I have a real problem with making decisions about travel - we absolutely hate using air travel, but our hands are nicely tied in terms of getting out of Oz - at least until we decide to change careers or take years off work. Now for you sacrificing air travel isnt so hard - you can still visit almost anywhere you want to, and visit almost all of your friends, but for us, it means never seeing a large number of beautiful people we've met and known over our years of bimbling around OS, and missing out on a LOT of conventions.

given all this, we still probly will give up airtravel, because even tho we've planted loads of trees on our property and are active in community groups in our area responsible for revegitation and preservation - and eat locally produced..etc.etc...airtravel is still bad m'kay smile

I guess I just saw it as another 'you dont care about the environment you bloody hippy-crite' thread (and that tone came not just from you either blue), when in fact we do care.

No love lost dude smile

So I guess we wont be seeing you for another uberOz? frown

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:hug

i sincerely don't think i ever meant it as a 'you don't care about the environment' thread, though i can see how it started out like that.

i think (in retrospect) i mostly intended to provoke debate and thought, and to present information to people who maybe hadn't already come accross it, or had thought that it was irrelevant to them.

sorry if it came off differently frown

i won't be coming to Oz again until i'm comfortable that it can be done sustainably, and currently that means no air travel (as i see it) and probably no boat travel (unless i see some good figures for boats, which noone has found yet). Lets hope we get our emissions down enormously through flights, industry, cars, etc, and maybe i'll get there yet.

i have a lot of sympathy for you, in fact, for holding your beleifs and trying to remain as environmentally conscious as you can while still living a life you choose: i do have it lucky, you're right. shrug you could, of course, choose to come and live over here wink

right.

*looks around for the next topic to rant on * tongue


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I'm really glad to hear so much support for our environment, our planet, our home. biggrin

My point I'd like to make is that I think there can be some environmental extremism going on whereby nothing is enough to save the planet. e.g., limit the number of children parents should have.
This isn't too much of a problem, just chucking around ideas to help the planet.
What annoys me is when passion for the environment turns into intolerance of others' for not having the same concerns as yourself.

I'm concerned about the planet, and the future of it. However I wouldnt want to be condemned if I took a cheap flight to go on holiday, or I decided to have 5 kids one day!

that's my little thought on the matter smile


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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bluecat


bluecat

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Total posts: 5300
Posted:mm. thanks jo.

makes me think a bit. where does informative conversation stop and evangelism begin?


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:exactly!! ubblol

I think that being so passionate about the environment is like a religion in a way.

I think it's a great cause, no doubt about that. But there's no need to judge our friends smile


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Environmentalism as a religion sums it up quite nicely likewise relating other "modern" ideologies like disdain for animal testing, could also be viewed as spiritual issues as well.

Good thread peace beerchug


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87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


I think that being so passionate about the environment is like a religion in a way.


'cept for, y'know, one is based on objective measurement, solid facts and sound theories, and the other is religion.

wink


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