• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 
Page: 123...9
bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.

now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.

how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.

I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting ubbcrying

for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at http://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
br>
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too biggrin

i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete Topic

87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:are you counting return journeys as two seperate "times a year"?

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:yes...

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:HOW much does flying damage the enrivonment, bearing in mind that compared to cars, a plane flies much less and carrying more people, unlike so many cars with only one consumer?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:http://technology.guardian.co.uk/businesssense/story/0,,1762803,00.html
br>
hard to say, and perhaps overestimated.

It seems that flying a plane full of people releases as much CO2 as if those people drove in cars with three people in each. Not too bad. Some experts contend that pollution at altitude is much worse for the environment.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

Delete

Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Well, my answers are slightly skewed...
Firstly, having just done a round the world trip, it was 10 flights to get from continent to continent, with a couple of internals.
Then recently I've had work in Ireland which yes, I could've ferried to - but honestly, it was a case of 6-hour drive to Liverpool, 1 hour ferry (which themselves are fairly polluting), 2 hour drive to Bangor - both ways.
For rehearsals and one gig.

Before this, I'd taken 1 short haul in my entire life and flew on a plane twice a year (once "there", once back)

I could back this up with cries of how I'm trying to set myself up full-time and don't want to turn any work down, it was helping a friend out, all but 1 of the flighs was full (I don't like seeing planes take off with 12 people on them), by spending an extra day either side I'd be losing other work and such like - but they're probably excuses rather than justifications.

Saying I felt guilty about all those short-haul flights, whilst true, is obviously hypocritical and hints at my poor morals and low levels of pratising what I preach.

On a flip side, I wouldn't ever consider flying to anywhere in Western Europe.

Interesting side note what I read today (Runs downstairs to check facts in newspaper)
The UK has 48 flights a day from London to Manchester
Italy has 4 flights from Rome to Naples
Germany has 2 flights a week from Berlin to Hamburg
There are no flights from Paris to Lille
[source: The Independent)


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:Mr Cat...

Imagine feeling much the same as you do but having a 64 mile round-trip commute to do every day (middle of nowhere, no public transport, no car sharing) and having a girlfriend over the atlantic (seeing eachother means having to fly- no fly, no girlfriend.)

I think the best third way is to reduce other emmissions from heavy industry etc and increase the efficieny of the travel that we can do (fuel cells etc).


Delete

87wt2gxq7


87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham

Total posts: 1502
Posted:I fly at least twice a year to visit my mum and dad in Asia.

I feel guilty about it though, 'kay?

Bring back passenger airships, I say!


Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:its true that planes are more numbers-efficient, and even relatively more fuel efficient than most cars. but the volume of flights is enormous, they each travel MUCH further than pretty much ANY car: how often do you drive the 3,000 miles between london and new york? but people regularly fly that route two or three times a week on business...

i'm certainly not happy with cars, either, and am looking into the cost and feasibility of turning my van into a vege oil van, but this rant is particularly about planes. here's an article from the guardian:monbiot


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:Mr Chutney

Your situation has only been made possible by the joys of cheap travel. Only 50 years ago such commuting would be impossible. People have survived up till now without flying and driving. "Cut down on heavy industry emissions". That seems like a painless way of accomplishing a great deal but as always there are problems. Thats going to hit you in the pocket hard when your power bill jumps and suddenly a vast range of goods become more expensive. Then you may not be able to afford those flights and that daily car journey in any case.

We may have to re-learn how to live without cheap energy, and that means more expensive everything and less travel.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:wow. answered one, got 5 more..

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, mr chutney... now imagine how i feel, turning down high paying gigs across the world, including an invited return to australia, because i choose not to

go G. words, out, of, mouth.

except the article i linked to is more damning than the one you did wink


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:I've noticed that too, and given the number of threads on * environmental awareness * floating around here, I can't help but notice the irony.

Unfortunately, concern for the environment currently resides mostly in the realm of the spiritual, and only sporadically crosses into the realm of the practical when convenient.

When it comes to global warming, IRL, the most common argument I run into is the fatalist " China's going to kill us all " one.


Delete

Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:if you ask me humanity will continue to use oil as fast as we can pump the stuff out of the ground.

You think people are making a fuss about global warming? you should hear the fuss when oil hits $60 a barrel in America.

The free market mechanism guarentees that the price of oil will adjust till all that oil is used. If we demand less oil and so the price falls the only diffrence is that some oil is no longer economicaly viable to extract. This has a small effect at the margins but the economics of oil are so amazing that most oil will still be highly profitable.

The only hope for humanity is that we run out of the stuff soon.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo

Total posts: 3764
Posted:I like the idea of "carbon neutral travel"... do a search on the www for more, but the basic idea is that you participate in initiatives that reduce your personal carbon emission contributions to offset those produced by your travel needs; because let's face it... if we need to go somewhere, we're going to go and sometimes a pushbike just isn't practical...

--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:but if you plan, most train journeys compare (under 1000 miles) in terms of price and time... so it ends up just being cause people are lazy that they choose to fly.

and we're [censored] our world up because of that? ubbcrying


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:and carbon neutrality is all very well, but it has its drawbacks:

it only relates to carbon emissions, not other emissions(sulphurous, nitrous, etcetc)
peole plant trees, but trees take a LONG time to grow and counteract the carbon that you've emitted immediately. so they do not have any imediate impact. retrospective carbon neutrality would be good:

'you can only fly if you planted a tree in 1989'

ubblol


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:right, trying to find an article about how melbournians are buying more bikes....



ah! here it is!



edit:



just found this too

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1167921838)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:i'm amused that aussies and americans think their fuel is expensive ubblol

yay for melburp biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:I concede that my position (transatlantic girlfriend, long commute to the countryside for work) are sympomatic of our destructive times.

I'm impressed and humbled by Robs decision to turn down work transatlantically- sadly i do not have the skills or recognition to be invited all over the world, and having found a job (a long and sordid tale with a thread to match if anyone is interested) I am loathe to give it up or move due to my specific circumstances.

Will I try not to fly unneceesarily- yes.
Will I stop flying and therefore lose the woman I love; I can't do that.


Delete

jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:*sings: Love lifts us up where we belong! where the eagles fly, over mountain high..*

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I think we have to manage a balance as best we can Rob. The purpose of travel can be relevant too- is it for simple pleasure, or can you make it more relevant. I spend about half my travel time doing volunteer work ... The cultural exchange that cccurs is also important, and the generation of a global community may just be what saves this planet int he end.



I do encourage carbon emission offsets. I started researching it last year, and am doing it this year. Yeah, it is only one part of things, but it is a big part. Here is a Canadian link http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/What_You_Can_Do/carbon_neutral.asp
br>


And for christs sake, you dont need to go into the past to plant trees. You have to do it now, as well as all the other options.



Also, you can consider balancing out how frequently you fly against your other more long term polluting behaviours. For example, I fly twice a year, but I work at home and dont commute on a regular basis at all. I grow my food in spring and summer, and eat local organic year round. Also took the time to fuel make my home more efficient etc etc One resource I was reading pointed out that by reducing the temperature on your furnace by one degree, over the course of the year it would have as much beneficial effect environmentally as skipping an average holiday flight.



Find other means of travel when you can, but I think it is over simplistic to look at airplanes as the big bad guys alone. I think we have more benefit if we consider the balance over all our habits, and make what changes we can to improve its impact on the environment. Creating new energy sources that are more environmentally sound is crucial, and some of the funds from carbon offsets do that. Influencing overall community /country behaviour and policies is also vitally important, more powerful than any individual actions. Though living and inspiring by example is always a good start on this.



But to point to hippy hipocracy is a bit silly, except on a level of considering our individual ethics. It is not hippies travelling all over the world willy nilly that are creating this problem( though I recognize we are contributing to it) . But they are not your frequent flyers, typically.Other sectors of our societies are much more influential, and much more polluting. Hippies don't usually have SUVs either...or run factories, fund mines, or plunder resources. I would really like to see our government stepping in with some sound environmental laws, to change the behaviour of these major polluters, provide better options and change the big picture; rather than have someone else simply take my seat on the plane. Being active and involved in movements that create that sort of long term profound change seems to me even more important. Of course, I can do both.



Changing the pricing/cost structures around various forms of travel so they are reflective of real costs, including environmental might be a big effect and posative wake up call.. But can you see the average consumer demanding higher prices?



No more $1 Ryan air, sigh...

EDITED_BY: BansheeCat (1167933768)


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: bluecat


and carbon neutrality is all very well, but it has its drawbacks:

it only relates to carbon emissions, not other emissions(sulphurous, nitrous, etcetc)
peole plant trees, but trees take a LONG time to grow and counteract the carbon that you've emitted immediately. so they do not have any imediate impact. retrospective carbon neutrality would be good:

'you can only fly if you planted a tree in 1989'

ubblol



Although I don't think that offsetting is anything like a solution or a way of buying out of guilt, it's not quite as bad as that. The money spent 'offsetting' often goes in to funding research in to alternative energy sources - and that's good for everyone in the long run.

However, the only solution is to stop using as much energy as we do at the moment. There is no point in finding some great new way of powering all the lights outside the 24 hour tesco in the out-of-town-drive-to-only-super-chain-mess that sits out side of most medium sized towns in England.

Bluecat: I was going to make a post more or less exactly the same as this one, so thank you! It's nice to know that other people are thinking in the same way.

This is great:
http://www.seat61.com/
br>
And I love this podcast:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/podcasts/2006/03/interview_with_robert_newman.html


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:The most obvious thing that could be done is for the government to tax aviation fuel.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I am sure there is tax on aviation fuel, no?
The question I would ask is where does that money go?

Unless it goes to the support and development of better energy options it is not necessarily useful for the environment. A tighter relationship between where the taxes are from and what they then get used for would be interesting...

I agree with you Sym, solar powered tescos located out of town would not be the best use of our initiative and resources.The changes we make around energy use are going to need to be more profound than that, entire community structures and awreness will have to shift.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Aviation fuel is not taxed in the UK.

Also, as a matter of interest, flying is not including in a countries emission rating because it's classed as 'international activity'. I'm not sure if this includes internal flights though.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Really? I am surprised. I will have to check and absolutely make sure it is in Canada,but I think so. If I remember correctly it is even listed as a surcharge on my ticket.
I 'll have to take another look.

Odd, I thought gasoline was very heavily taxed in the UK, in a much more reasonable fashion than Canada, who under taxes it. Why isn't airplane fuel? Any idea?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:It is taxed in Canada, though apparently some provinces have been figuring out ways to avoid it...

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: BansheeCat


Odd, I thought gasoline was very heavily taxed in the UK, in a much more reasonable fashion than Canada, who under taxes it. Why isn't airplane fuel? Any idea?



That is 1 thing that really gets me about the UK. The whole industry is really subsidised by the government: We build the air ports and don't charge tax on the fuel. If the government started taxing the fuel I am sure that ticket prices would shoot up, and therefore the numbers of flyers drop.

Chutney: do you pay for 'offsetting' when you fly to see your girlfriend? A friend of mine went the states about 2 months ago and found that the 'offset' charge was only about 10. He paid 4 times that, just to make sure, but it's still a tiny per cent of the ticket price.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

garthy
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

garthy

old hand
Location: Bristol, England

Total posts: 717
Posted: Written by: bluecat


its true that planes are more numbers-efficient, and even relatively more fuel efficient than most cars. but the volume of flights is enormous, they each travel MUCH further than pretty much ANY car: how often do you drive the 3,000 miles between london and new york? but people regularly fly that route two or three times a week on business...

i'm certainly not happy with cars, either, and am looking into the cost and feasibility of turning my van into a vege oil van, but this rant is particularly about planes. here's an article from the guardian:monbiot



Converting van maybe not such a good idea?

"""With today's biofuel technologies, filling fuel tanks this way would require a huge amount of land - enough to transform the world's agriculture (see Fuels gold: Big risks of the biofuel revolution). The prospect of growing corn to make ethanol is already helping to push up global grain prices and reduce emergency food stocks. Areas earmarked for palm oil biodiesel production in south-east Asia threaten to finish off the region's surviving rainforests

What's more, a rash of studies suggests that the greenhouse gains from biofuels are far less than commonly assumed. True, the carbon emitted by burning biofuels is absorbed by the next crop as it grows, but manufacturing the fertilisers and pesticides needed to grow most biofuels requires large amounts of energy, as does turning the product into fuel. The net emissions reductions compared with conventional fossil fuels are often small ."""


"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:http://www.alittlegreener.com/travel.htm
br>a beautifully done site just starting, with some interesting environmental travel suggestions etc... and good links... and it is beautifully done...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Page: 123...9