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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.

now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.

how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.

I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting ubbcrying

for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at http://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
br>
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too biggrin

i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted:Good point Jo.

I think what it comes down to is that we all have to share responsibility to do what we can, but without having to compromise too much.

I've always been pretty concerned with environmental issues, but I have to admit I have had my moments of apathy when feeling frustrated at the lack of positive action taken.

I've been slowly changing my habits so I recycle more and now I try to buy local produce when I can. I avoid buying gadgets and goods that have a short lifespan and can't be recycled, plus I am quite militant about cutting down on my electricity consumption (good for my wallet as well as the planet!) by turning down the heating, turning off lights when I don't need them, using energy-efficient bulbs etc.

I think people could do with paying attention to all the little things as they all mount up.

I kind of have to fly long-haul once every few years though to see my family, as they all live in Mauritius. frown But I don't go out there every year though, so I feel I'm doing what I can at the moment. I do plan in future to increase my recycling and eventually start to compost food waste too.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:(This got a bit long, sorry)



 Written by: Jo



My point I'd like to make is that I think there can be some environmental extremism going on whereby nothing is enough to save the planet. e.g., limit the number of children parents should have.

This isn't too much of a problem, just chucking around ideas to help the planet.

What annoys me is when passion for the environment turns into intolerance of others' for not having the same concerns as yourself.







I would like to address that point directly, as I feel it's been made at me: I made an off the cuff remark about the need to limit population growth to Jo last night.



I think that limiting the number of children we have is vital, and I have a lot of respect for the Chinese, who to a greater or lesser extent have managed it. There will always be problems with what to do with illegal pregnancies but I would rather deal with those problems rather than deal with the huge problem that over population will cause.





At the moment, yields of grain have peeked or are about to peek. We have boosted yields with the use of chemicals and intensive farming methods, but the extent that we can carry on enhancing yields is getting less and less every year. A lot of the increase in yields comes from oil in the form of pesticides and herbicides as well as massive increase in the amount of work we can do. For example,



 Written by: House of Representatives - May 11, 2005

"I will give you some idea of the energy density of crude oil, one barrel of crude oil, 42 gallons, represents the energy from 25,000 man-hours of labor. That is about 12 man years of labor. That is the equivalent of having 12 people that work all year for you. And what will it cost you for that? $100 today, about $50 for the barrel of oil and maybe $50 to refine it and distribute it. So that is the kind of energy density that we get from fossil fuel. "







Seeing as we are running out of oil fast, we have to assume that the amount of energy we are going to have to grow things and therefore the amount of food we will have is only going to get less, not more. Some organic farmers claim to get similar yields as oil based farming, but that is when using tractors that may not be usable in 100 years due to the high price of oil.



Even if we assume that they can get equal yields as we do today from industrial farming, the chance of getting higher yields is next to imposable. The population of the world has doubled in the last 50 years or so from about 3bn to about 6bn. By the year 2050 we are expected to grow to a total population size of 10bn. That is a projection of current growth, without consideration of other factors like climate change. If we totally ignore climate change for the time being, we are looking at feeding 4bn more people than we are at the moment in the next 50 years. If my rough maths is right, that means we need a 60% rise in yields if we all want to eat the rich diets we do today.



John Jeavons, who is a pioneer in methods of organic farming for self-sufficiency and has managed to develop techniques that he thinks can sustain 7bn people world-wide, but this is based on a diet that is strictly vegan and composts everything, including human bodies for use on the land. This assumes a higher level of soil quality than is realistic, so the 7bn figure is probably much less, maybe even as little as 4bn worldwide.





None of these figures include and of the effects of climate change. Yields world wide will be much less because of lower rainfall and more extreme climates at both ends (hot and cold).



There is a high chance (80-90%) that unless we reduce worldwide green house gas emissions by 60% before 2050 the per cent of the world in extreme drought will rise from 3% to 40%. This will obviously have a huge impact on net yields worldwide and therefore the amount of people the world can sustain.



I know that I have not factored other means of getting power here, but the fact is that we know of no power source that can match oil in terms of price or availability.



You are very welcome to call me an extremist if you like, but the fact remains that we have a massive, massive problem on our hands, and I think that calls for massive measures, one of them being a limit of 1 child per family. Unlike the Chinese method I favor child 'credits' that can be traded from people who don't want children to people who do. I also favor this type of system for greenhouse gas emissions: the point being that the net total is less without forcing everyone to use less because people who use less anyway will be able to sell credit to rich people who use more than the quota allows.



As for the claim that it is like a religion: The only thing that it will take for me to change my mind on ANY subject, including all of those that I have talked about and including others like the existence of god is to read a peer-reviewed paper or a book that bases is facts in scientific evidence. In that respect I think my views of the world are as far removed from religion as you can get.





I heard George Monbiot say:

 Written by: George Monbiot



This might seem grotesque, unfair, and onerous, but I would remind you that only a very, very small proportion of the world's people fly. The great majority of people on Earth, including all those that are going to get hit hardest with climate change, have never, and will never, step into an airplane.



And if this seems particularly unfair, it's because that tiny minority who fly almost certainly includes all of you.



But, put this into perspective. The last great global crisis which is in any way comparable to the one that we face with climate change, was the Second World War. And the Allied Powers saw very clearly that if they did not stand up and fight against this great threat to a democratic, or vaguely, or nominally democratic world order - that a catastrophe would ensue. That was a reasonable prediction.



And so, they had to turn to their people and say: We have to stop Hitler, and we have to stop the Japanese, we have to stop the Axis Powers. And we are asking you, millions of you, to sacrifice your lives, in order to stop those people, and in order to stop this global catastrophe from unfolding.



Now I'm saying, alongside many other people, we have to stop runaway climate change, a catastrophe just as great, possibly even greater, than Hitler promised. A catastrophe which has the potential to kill hundreds of millions of people. And I'm not asking you to sacrifice your lives. I'm asking you to sacrifice your holidays in Florida. I'm asking you to sacrifice your monster SUVs which you might drive. I'm asking you to sacrifice a little of the energy you might use for lighting and heating by going to more efficient models.



If we can't bear the thought of that sacrifice, we have become a very soft and selfish people. It's not a big deal. By comparison to what we're up against, by comparison to what climate change threatens, it is not a big sacrifice to ask of people.



It seems onerous because we are in those temperate nations which, in the early years at least, do pretty well out of climate change. It looks good. It feels good. We don't feel the urgent necessity of doing something about it. But let tell you, in Ethiopia they do right now, because in Ethiopia, every year the short rains are failing, and they are failing because of rising sea surface temperatures in the Indian Ocean, and those rising sea surface temperatures are the direct result of what we are doing in countries like this. And already, we are having that impact on them.



If this country was at the latitude of Ethiopia, and my country was at the latitude of Ethiopia, we would have cracked this problem by now. We would have seen those sacrifices as being very, very minor sacrifices indeed.




EDITED_BY: Sym (1169741496)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:* attempts to bring this thread back to life again* redface


Sue Blackmore isn't flying any more either smile


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ok. I've had a rethink on this idea of environmentalism as being a religion, and I don't think I can defend the idea except by speculating that id environmentalism is a religion, then it's in it's infancy.

Environmentalism has most of the trappings of a religion. Like Gods ( Al Gore, David Suzuki ) idols ( alternative energy ) demons ( the big fat American in the SUV, the "military industrial complex" ) priests/seers ( Bluecat, Sym ) dogma ( petitions, protests )

What environmentalism lacks is a moral code as defined by scripture. That may come, however given some of the justifications for flying I've read, I'm not holding my breath.


I'll retract my agreement with environmentalism as a religion, and instead consider it a philosophy designed to appeal more to personality rather than character.

Sue Blackmore understands.


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:ubblol Stout, I just spend a while writing a post that refutes environmentalism as a religion before re-reading your post and seeing that you weren't saying it was any more....!



I like the idea of being a priest though biggrin ubblol



edit: this is worth a read thoguh:

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

EDITED_BY: Sym (1169853601)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: georgemc


Man this thread is moving fast! A couple of pages ago :
 Written by: FireTom

And how about HoP shipping airfreight?
Yet: Would you - as their customer - wait 3 weeks... wait... errm 3 MONTHS for your firestuff?



We know, and that's part of what we're working on. Fair cop! wink
I have 3 different prongs in mind for the attack on that item, but you're gonna have to wait to see any results. I hate making well intentioned statements that don't turn out due to some technicality.

George



George, I dunno whether setting up HUB's in the UK will really wash it off your hands thoroughly wink tongue

Try again biggrin


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:*puts on priestly robes*

why don't you wait to see what his/their ideas are before mocking them?

*removes robes*

Go sue blackmore!

ubblol


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Total posts: 2387
Posted: Written by: FireTom

George, I dunno whether setting up HUB's in the UK will really wash it off your hands thoroughly wink tongue

Try again biggrin


Not even if using eco-friendly washing soap? wink

Wrong guess (well, mostly wrong!cool) - your turn to try again!
ubbrollsmile


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006

georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Total posts: 2387
Posted: Written by: Sym


I like the idea of being a priest though biggrin ubblol




No more beanie then Sym - you'll have to do the old tonsure thing on your head and take to wearing coarse weave robes!! ubblol ubblol ubblol


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:I have a beautiful purple-tie-dye Kaftan, would that do? wink ubblol

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:not the kaftan!! please! anything but the kaftan!!! ubblol

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Richard Dawkins.... He's that guy from South Park right ? I really should buy his book, as I'm getting tired of reading everything on a desktop monitor. Interesting article, that one, and often used by creationists to bring faith up "on par" with science. Interesting idea about mental child abuse, a little extreme, but interesting nonetheless.

My vote's with the purple caftan, why co-opt burlap robes and funny haircuts? For a sense of credibility maybe ? naaaaaaaaa, not worth it, purple hemp would be my fabric of choice.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6305587.stm
br>
getting there....


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Sorry, but I see that as an unpopular prime minister trying to look good on his way out.



 Written by:



Mr Blair praised Chancellor Angela Merkel's focus on climate change during her EU presidency and India and China's engagement with the G8.







But didn't say "She couldn't have done worst than the last guy to hold the presidency".



 Written by:



He also pledged to work with other world leaders towards a more "radical" and "comprehensive" successor to the Kyoto protocol.







When? Is he going to get a 60% reduction world wide in the next 3 months before he steps down?



Also



 Written by:



He told the World Economic Forum: "If Britain shut down our emissions entirely, ie we closed down the country - not the legacy I want - the growth in China's emissions would make up the difference in just two years.







But China have about 1200000000 more people than us, so there isn't a problem with them emitting more. Our emissions per capita are *much* higher than Chinas.

EDITED_BY: Sym (1169919923)


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tim_marston


addict


Total posts: 614
Posted:abolutley lolsign lolsign lolsign

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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:Environmentalism is not a religion

the reason that this has been suggested is that environmentalism appeals to a belief in something greater than yourself and some measure of self-sacrifice for that belief, classic hallmarks of religion.

The difference is that it doesn't require faith in something for which no concrete evidence is offered. In 1881 the cities of Chicago and Cincinnati enacted clean air legislation banning the burning of coal to reduce smog. This was an early piece of environmentalism and all it required was to make the link between burning coal and smog.

There will be no talk of environmentalism as a religion when the effects of Global warming begin to really bite.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: georgemc


Not even if using eco-friendly washing soap? wink

Wrong guess (well, mostly wrong!cool) - your turn to try again!




And all this company-advice for free? umm Dude, I'd call this inflationary... ubblol wink

The effects of global warmin IS biting already, but most like to blame it on... errm, is there really any other excuse, still? *looks around and can't find any*

As to the Kyoto protocol: IMHO some of it 's cowspoo. The numbers of scooters available in the 3rd world; the ammount of trash burnt along the streets; the number of fields that get burnt for fertilizing; the ammount of busses, cars and motorbikes, that do not receive a emmission-check - those are the smoking guns that take a part in ridiculing this protocol...

btw - the efforts taken by the previous German govt made Germany the biggest exporter on the planet - in terms of jobs eek confused Haven't got the actual numbers, but not so much back, Germany was leading the ranks in producing energy, using alternative means, like photovoltaic and wind.

And all this, because the big parties learned that there are voters who would go green, because they are concerned about the environment... we CAN change something.. at least.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:In my case for environmentalism as a religion, I was going to cite the belief that the natural world is somehow "better" that the man made world as the spiritual basis. I was going to cite the preference for old growth forests over second generation forests and try to tie in this whole "older trees have wisdom" hippy mindset that continually crops up.

So I could cover the something greater than yourself angle, but I'd expect it to be shot down in favour of a something that we're a part of argument, and I'd probably end up agreeing or countering with a "what we're doing IS natural" ( for us as a species ) argument. that too might just fly ( haha..pun )

Where I couldn't come up with an argument is the whole sacrificing for your ideology, living the moral code, if you will. mainly because it doesn't exist yet. Sure there's actions one can take to reduce one's impact on the environment, but if the daily reports i read re global warming are to be taken seriously, then there's the evidence that " talking about this for the last 30 years" ( from an Inconvenient Truth ) hasn't been enough, and further sacrifice is needed.

And the people who acknowledge that that sacrifice has to be made, are few and far between IMO


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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:the people who acknowledge that the sacrifice has to be made are numerous indeed compared to the people actualy making any significant sacrifice.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:err when you consider a whole ecosystem, second growth forests are a poor shadow of their former self. And once a species is extinct, planting more trees at the same site wont bring it back. Old growth has far higher biodiversity yadadada...

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Mascot, Yes beerchug

Josh, I totally agree on the biodiversity issue, but it quite often plays second fiddle in both the press and activist writings to the *we like trees* attitude. I don't want to attach any level of importance to the two when it comes to discussing the preservation of old growth and it's relationship to global warming ( however it is part of the greater lifestyle discussion ) , just pose the idea that the spiritual connection to the natural world may be a basis for rating environmentalism as a religion.


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Should I be shocked at this, or just expect it?

 Written by: some idiot


According to the United Nations the Antarctic is cooling and global temperatures have only risen by a total of less than one degree centigrade in the last 100 hundred years, but that does not suit the agenda of the discredited socialists and communists who have moved into what they refer to as more fruitful areas of activity to pedal their anti capitalist agenda; environmentalism.

However, I will concede that there has indeed been a catastrophic increase in hot air.





Be even more amazed

ubbloco frown


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:See yesterday I read an article about Sydney being unsustainable by the year 2070 - as an Australian study conducted. Sea levels will raise by 20cm's and after that the entire coastline will be battered with high(er) waves.

Australia (already) is the driest, inhabited continent.

By now we are lucky to the extent that all these greenhouse gasses (that were put into the air a few decades ago already and will) slowly rise into the atmosphere.

The greenhouse scenario is almost inevitable, unless some genius finds a cure (soon)... shrug

Will it then be the same as in the end of the Maya culture? That mankind sacrifices those (capitalistic) preachermen and just move on (whereto anyways?)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Whereto?????

Now that's the really really BIG question.


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wolfcub3223
BRONZE Member since Jan 2007

wolfcub3223

Member
Location: , USA

Total posts: 128
Posted:Im scared of flying becuase I DONT WANT TO DIE!!!!!!!!! frown

Ich brauche Zeit
Kein Heroin kein Alkohol kein Nikotin
Brauch keine Hilfe
Kein Koffein
Doch Dynamit und Terpentin
Ich brauche l fr Gasolin
Explosiv wie Kerosin
Mit viel Oktan und frei von Blei
Einen Kraftstoff wie Benzin

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:maybe offtopic ish

http://www.avaaz.org/en/climate_action/


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:newgabe posted a link in another thread in the help section a while back... and i just found this site and had a proper look in the context of something i am actually trying to do, and decided the link absolutely has to be here too...

The Man in Seat 61 has provided all the details you could possibly ever need about how to get from... well the uk mainly... (but it's got to be useful for others too) to wherever else you could possibly want to go by train and ship. When i say details, i mean right down to what time the trains leave and prices, plus you can buy tickets and railpasses online!

woot! yay, i love travelling by train. smile


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:interestingly, from England it seems you can make it by ship and overland as far as indonesia, but not to Aust???

http://www.seat61.com/Australia.htm

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...

Total posts: 1228
Posted:Wow, I'm seriously tempted to try getting to Japan by train and boat (2 weeks travelling isn't too bad when you get to see an entire continent doing it). Might have to do the Japan-Australia part of the trip by plane though.

You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1858
Posted:Thanks NOn smile I actually posted a link to it on the first page of this thread, but I think more people should know about it biggrin

I want to go somewhere now, so I have a reason to use it!


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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