Forums > Social Discussion > Old Growth Forest Logging
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Whenever I got to visit my hometown of Geelong, Australia, the train passes past wharves where there are tonnes of woodchips waiting to be exported to Japan. These woodchips come from an old growth forest half an hour away. It is only only the Otways that are killed, but the old growth in Tasmania, Gippsland (yes, the area that is currently a blazing inferno) and other parts of Australia as well.
And it made me angry before I came to Japan. Not that I am here, my anger is 10-fold. Why? Our old growth forests, which have taken centuries to millennia to grow, are being turned into paper in Japan. And do you know what they do with their used paper in Japan? They burn it. Yes, that's right. They don't recycle it. They burn it (Along with their plastic too!). And I, as well as my fellow student over here, think it's disgusting.
And well, basically, I just want to bring it to people's attention.
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/who/mitsui.htm
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/who/nipponpaper.htm
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/clearfell.htm
https://www.wilderness.org.au/campaigns/forests/tasmania/tas-forests-google/
Oh, and Victoria (as well as Australia as a whole) wants ways to save water. Here's a clue stop logging our water catchments! My hometown's water is "caught" in the Otways, and while our water restrictions are not as severe as some, they're worse than Melbourne and most certainly worse than Canberra. Every little bit helps. And I know it's not only the Otways catchments that are dwindling because of logging.
Whenever I got to visit my hometown of Geelong, Australia, the train passes past wharves where there are tonnes of woodchips waiting to be exported to Japan. These woodchips come from an old growth forest half an hour away. It is only only the Otways that are killed, but the old growth in Tasmania, Gippsland (yes, the area that is currently a blazing inferno) and other parts of Australia as well.
And it made me angry before I came to Japan. Not that I am here, my anger is 10-fold. Why? Our old growth forests, which have taken centuries to millennia to grow, are being turned into paper in Japan. And do you know what they do with their used paper in Japan? They burn it. Yes, that's right. They don't recycle it. They burn it (Along with their plastic too!). And I, as well as my fellow student over here, think it's disgusting.
And well, basically, I just want to bring it to people's attention.
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/who/mitsui.htm
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/who/nipponpaper.htm
https://www.oren.org.au/logging/clearfell.htm
https://www.wilderness.org.au/campaigns/forests/tasmania/tas-forests-google/
Oh, and Victoria (as well as Australia as a whole) wants ways to save water. Here's a clue stop logging our water catchments! My hometown's water is "caught" in the Otways, and while our water restrictions are not as severe as some, they're worse than Melbourne and most certainly worse than Canberra. Every little bit helps. And I know it's not only the Otways catchments that are dwindling because of logging.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
Posted:
OMG...this makes my heart hurt...
Every time that I see another area cleared for yet *another* sub-division...it makes me want to scream...
And in these cases...ahhh...it's just plain wrong!!!
OMG...this makes my heart hurt...
Every time that I see another area cleared for yet *another* sub-division...it makes me want to scream...
And in these cases...ahhh...it's just plain wrong!!!
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Yay!! Someone else cares!
Yay!! Someone else cares!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
member
165 posts
Location: Australia
member
165 posts
Location: Australia
Posted:
I care to Miss Rouge. I urge everyone to put an hour a week to writting a letter. My letter writting is on sunday afternoon... usually followed by some painting or a stroll throught the forest to calm down.
Once you start it is amazing who and why you chose to write to. I am sure my local post-man thinks i am balmy.
I honestly think that this is more useful then ethical shopping and other things that try to make a difference on a small scale.
Think like an ant... overwelme the grasshoppers!
xox
I care to Miss Rouge. I urge everyone to put an hour a week to writting a letter. My letter writting is on sunday afternoon... usually followed by some painting or a stroll throught the forest to calm down.
Once you start it is amazing who and why you chose to write to. I am sure my local post-man thinks i am balmy.
I honestly think that this is more useful then ethical shopping and other things that try to make a difference on a small scale.
Think like an ant... overwelme the grasshoppers!
xox
... simplify ...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Oh...do I have massive, massive issues with this. With disrespect of nature to begin with.
To old growth logging (we have many companies which own property and they reseed where they log...I'm okay with this), to new sub-divisions and strip malls and such
bull---- going into places and leveling perfectly good nature when there are buildings, homes, etc already available for use...or to be leveled and built on top of.
Yeah...sensitive subject for me as well and I have long had little respect for the havoc the Asian nations wreak on our planet (for example China uses 1/3 of the steel manufactured globally annually, and the amount of coal they eat is well beyond the rest of the world as well, etc.).
Oooooh gurl...don't get me started!
Oh...do I have massive, massive issues with this. With disrespect of nature to begin with.
To old growth logging (we have many companies which own property and they reseed where they log...I'm okay with this), to new sub-divisions and strip malls and such
bull---- going into places and leveling perfectly good nature when there are buildings, homes, etc already available for use...or to be leveled and built on top of.
Yeah...sensitive subject for me as well and I have long had little respect for the havoc the Asian nations wreak on our planet (for example China uses 1/3 of the steel manufactured globally annually, and the amount of coal they eat is well beyond the rest of the world as well, etc.).
Oooooh gurl...don't get me started!
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
:cry: ... one reason why I left Australia and cancelled my migratory intentions... same same business all over the place...
But who's to blame for this, really? Japanese?
Chinese and Indians? How about reckless industrials who export bad habits, Western citizens are now unwilling to accept?
Beware the strawman-trap
:cry: ... one reason why I left Australia and cancelled my migratory intentions... same same business all over the place...
But who's to blame for this, really? Japanese?
Chinese and Indians? How about reckless industrials who export bad habits, Western citizens are now unwilling to accept?
Beware the strawman-trap
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
i live in hope that one day someone invents money that we CAN eat.
i live in hope that one day someone invents money that we CAN eat.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
Posted:
I'm with you, Pele!!!
I don't understand in the least why we have abandoned homes and businesses that sit empty while more and more of nature is destroyed to put up new homes and businesses!!! WTF!!!
We destroy nature at such an alarming rate...toppling trees that have been growing for longer than we've been alive...wiping out whole species of Mother Nature's creatures...
You know...it's said that there is a cure to every illness known to man in our rainforests...but will we ever find those cures if we destroy their source...I think not.
We cry and we rail when nature visits us with her anger...destroying lives...homes...
Yes...it's horrible when these things happen...but in my viewpoint...
Mama is just trying to reclaim a bit of what was hers in the first place...
We destroy her creations...she destroys ours...
Only fair!!!
I'm with you, Pele!!!
I don't understand in the least why we have abandoned homes and businesses that sit empty while more and more of nature is destroyed to put up new homes and businesses!!! WTF!!!
We destroy nature at such an alarming rate...toppling trees that have been growing for longer than we've been alive...wiping out whole species of Mother Nature's creatures...
You know...it's said that there is a cure to every illness known to man in our rainforests...but will we ever find those cures if we destroy their source...I think not.
We cry and we rail when nature visits us with her anger...destroying lives...homes...
Yes...it's horrible when these things happen...but in my viewpoint...
Mama is just trying to reclaim a bit of what was hers in the first place...
We destroy her creations...she destroys ours...
Only fair!!!
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
So the Western world can screw up the world as much as they like, but as soon as China follow in their footsteps ..uh oh!
Written by: Pele
Yeah...sensitive subject for me as well and I have long had little respect for the havoc the Asian nations wreak on our planet (for example China uses 1/3 of the steel manufactured globally annually, and the amount of coal they eat is well beyond the rest of the world as well, etc.).
Oooooh gurl...don't get me started!
So the Western world can screw up the world as much as they like, but as soon as China follow in their footsteps ..uh oh!
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
Posted:
I dunno...I really don't think that's what she meant...
We know that our country is just as screwy as all the rest...we waste and destroy at alarming rates...
It's just that, at least, there are a small amount of us here that are trying to redeem ourselves...
I recycle everything that I possibly can...
Glass...plastic...paper...metals...cardboard...
And it pisses me off to no end when I take the extra time and effort to take all of this stuff to the trash dumps where the recycle bins are...and someone is just tossing everything into the burn bins...EVERYTHING!!!...and then they get angry at me cause they have to wait a few minutes for me to move so that they can get by my truck!!!
Makes me want to just SCREAM at them!!!
I dunno...I really don't think that's what she meant...
We know that our country is just as screwy as all the rest...we waste and destroy at alarming rates...
It's just that, at least, there are a small amount of us here that are trying to redeem ourselves...
I recycle everything that I possibly can...
Glass...plastic...paper...metals...cardboard...
And it pisses me off to no end when I take the extra time and effort to take all of this stuff to the trash dumps where the recycle bins are...and someone is just tossing everything into the burn bins...EVERYTHING!!!...and then they get angry at me cause they have to wait a few minutes for me to move so that they can get by my truck!!!
Makes me want to just SCREAM at them!!!
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
BRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk
Posted:
if your intrested in recycleing i've found something that had a major impact on my beleafs regarding it. its quite long but its well worth watching if you have abit of time to your self, and are intrested in it.
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7734998370503499886&q=penn+teller
you'll probly want to just ignore them and turn it off at the start but be pateient and watch it all the way though. i still dont entirely agree with all of it but alot of my views shifted on certain types of recycleing and the ways in which it should be done.
its abit less relivent if your not from the US but alot of the points are still valid.
EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166632584)
if your intrested in recycleing i've found something that had a major impact on my beleafs regarding it. its quite long but its well worth watching if you have abit of time to your self, and are intrested in it.
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7734998370503499886&q=penn+teller
you'll probly want to just ignore them and turn it off at the start but be pateient and watch it all the way though. i still dont entirely agree with all of it but alot of my views shifted on certain types of recycleing and the ways in which it should be done.
its abit less relivent if your not from the US but alot of the points are still valid.
EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166632584)
My nunchucks vital statictics 
weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
Pele....
Do you know anything about globalization or free markets or capitalism?
Do you know how much the US is wrecking the world and forcing countries in to your way of thinking that will always lead to what we are seeing in China?
Every single person in the West is at fault just for living in the massively unsustainable way that we live.
Having an economy that would collapse if China stopped buying and selling to it and then blaming them because they are beating you at your own game is something that needs a even higher level of ignorance than I thought Americans had.
Pele....
Do you know anything about globalization or free markets or capitalism?
Do you know how much the US is wrecking the world and forcing countries in to your way of thinking that will always lead to what we are seeing in China?
Every single person in the West is at fault just for living in the massively unsustainable way that we live.
Having an economy that would collapse if China stopped buying and selling to it and then blaming them because they are beating you at your own game is something that needs a even higher level of ignorance than I thought Americans had.
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I had had a long response and can't be bothered to retype it.
Sym, the biggotry and racism you continually display against Americans is disgusting to me. And that is *exactly* what it is.
So long as a country uses the US and commerce as an excuse then it is alright for them to use the vast majority of the natural resources on our planet? That is what you are implying. I suppose you will also blame the fact that Japan burns the paper on the US as well?
Did you actually research Chinese industry use? I did. I read about it in two magazines and decided to research it. The vast majority of the steel they are using is based on political and commercial moguls, but it is not supported by a good deal of the people of the country. That the US is not alone in their import/export industry of China. Entire villages which have been in place for dynasties are being devoured by "progress" much to the dismay of the nationals. I find the entire situation quite sad.
And there are alternatives. Other nations have found and/or are researching/implementing them, so your excuse falls short. No matter what country...the USA, China, England where-ever, I have very little respect for the rulers and business tycoons when such decisions are made.
The problem with your finger pointing is that it can be turned right back around on you. At least I am not so blind as to know and admit the weaknesses and strengths of my country. We are not a super power and in global politics/commerce, the USA is sure as hell not alone in its crap practices.
America would not collapse if China stopped buying and selling to it. In fact, we would probably be a bit better off once the initial shock wears off. I am sick to death of people in other countries telling me all about the one in which I have lived my entire life as if they actually know what it is to be an American. I am sick to death of people finger pointing and passing judgement then claiming that passing judgement is wrong. And you know what? There are a tonne of people who are on here who have travelled to the US, sure. Some who have even lived here a short while, but until you really live as an adult here, your opinions of our ignorance are quite ignorant in and of themselves.
I also find it repulsive that you refer to destructive politics as a game.
Moving on... sorry for the tangent.
Rougie, we had a town that my friend lives in that recently had the reverse problem that Geelong is facing. The hillside near his town was recently logged. The trees actually helped with rain run off and the like. This past spring the town experienced flooding for the first time in its entire history. There was a good layer of silt left on everything as a result of it. It was quite terrible.
Fyrespirit, you'd HATE what my town is doing. They are putting up two new strip malls when there are old ones with empty stores in them. They even levelled wetlands to do it. I can not wait to see what happens during flood season! Bitter but true. The town attempted to justify it by purchasing small plots of property around the area claiming that these are now protected. None of the plots were even large enough to build on in the first place! So many of us here are irate but the mighty dollar speaks loads more than the voices of the taxpayers.
Robnunchucks, have you seen Penn and Teller's show Bullsh!t?
They did a great segment about the truth behind recycling that changed many of my views on it as well. There are things I do recycle, but I am more of a reduce and reuse girl myself. Anyway, you would've liked it.
I had had a long response and can't be bothered to retype it.
Sym, the biggotry and racism you continually display against Americans is disgusting to me. And that is *exactly* what it is.
So long as a country uses the US and commerce as an excuse then it is alright for them to use the vast majority of the natural resources on our planet? That is what you are implying. I suppose you will also blame the fact that Japan burns the paper on the US as well?
Did you actually research Chinese industry use? I did. I read about it in two magazines and decided to research it. The vast majority of the steel they are using is based on political and commercial moguls, but it is not supported by a good deal of the people of the country. That the US is not alone in their import/export industry of China. Entire villages which have been in place for dynasties are being devoured by "progress" much to the dismay of the nationals. I find the entire situation quite sad.
And there are alternatives. Other nations have found and/or are researching/implementing them, so your excuse falls short. No matter what country...the USA, China, England where-ever, I have very little respect for the rulers and business tycoons when such decisions are made.
The problem with your finger pointing is that it can be turned right back around on you. At least I am not so blind as to know and admit the weaknesses and strengths of my country. We are not a super power and in global politics/commerce, the USA is sure as hell not alone in its crap practices.
America would not collapse if China stopped buying and selling to it. In fact, we would probably be a bit better off once the initial shock wears off. I am sick to death of people in other countries telling me all about the one in which I have lived my entire life as if they actually know what it is to be an American. I am sick to death of people finger pointing and passing judgement then claiming that passing judgement is wrong. And you know what? There are a tonne of people who are on here who have travelled to the US, sure. Some who have even lived here a short while, but until you really live as an adult here, your opinions of our ignorance are quite ignorant in and of themselves.
I also find it repulsive that you refer to destructive politics as a game.
Moving on... sorry for the tangent.
Rougie, we had a town that my friend lives in that recently had the reverse problem that Geelong is facing. The hillside near his town was recently logged. The trees actually helped with rain run off and the like. This past spring the town experienced flooding for the first time in its entire history. There was a good layer of silt left on everything as a result of it. It was quite terrible.
Fyrespirit, you'd HATE what my town is doing. They are putting up two new strip malls when there are old ones with empty stores in them. They even levelled wetlands to do it. I can not wait to see what happens during flood season! Bitter but true. The town attempted to justify it by purchasing small plots of property around the area claiming that these are now protected. None of the plots were even large enough to build on in the first place! So many of us here are irate but the mighty dollar speaks loads more than the voices of the taxpayers.
Robnunchucks, have you seen Penn and Teller's show Bullsh!t?
They did a great segment about the truth behind recycling that changed many of my views on it as well. There are things I do recycle, but I am more of a reduce and reuse girl myself. Anyway, you would've liked it.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
1 + 1 = 3
3,540 posts
Location: Bristol UK
Posted:
Um... [pedant]
Sym isn't criticising AMERICANS. He's criticising AMERICA. as a nation. not you, your neighbours, your friends, anyone that comes from there, but he is criticising the way the US is run. I must say, I agree with him.
He did also put blame onto england in the sentence: "Every single person in the West is at fault just for living in the massively unsustainable way that we live."
That reaction was a bit Harsh IMO, Pele.
i believe, if China did stop Trade with the western world, all of our economies would collapse. The things that they make over there for us, would have to be produced over here. at more than double the cost. that'll cause the stock market to crash (again), not to mention rallies concerning fair working conditions, etc etc. The list of possible effects are endless. In China, A high quantity of goods are made, at a very low cost. Here in the western world, we wouldn't even consider working under those conditions.
I admit, I haven't done extensive research. But some things are plain obvious to me.
Um... [pedant]
Sym isn't criticising AMERICANS. He's criticising AMERICA. as a nation. not you, your neighbours, your friends, anyone that comes from there, but he is criticising the way the US is run. I must say, I agree with him.
He did also put blame onto england in the sentence: "Every single person in the West is at fault just for living in the massively unsustainable way that we live."
That reaction was a bit Harsh IMO, Pele.
i believe, if China did stop Trade with the western world, all of our economies would collapse. The things that they make over there for us, would have to be produced over here. at more than double the cost. that'll cause the stock market to crash (again), not to mention rallies concerning fair working conditions, etc etc. The list of possible effects are endless. In China, A high quantity of goods are made, at a very low cost. Here in the western world, we wouldn't even consider working under those conditions.
I admit, I haven't done extensive research. But some things are plain obvious to me.
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
SILVER Member
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
3,764 posts
Location: limbo, Australia
there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
3,764 posts
Location: limbo, Australia
Posted:
learned about this yesterday, but didn`t have a chance to post it till now... small victory but it`s a start:
court rules tassie logging operations breach RFA
learned about this yesterday, but didn`t have a chance to post it till now... small victory but it`s a start:
court rules tassie logging operations breach RFA
Written by: abc news
Australian Greens leader Bob Brown says a Federal Court decision today should spell the end of logging in Tasmania`s old-growth native forests.
The court has ruled that Forestry Tasmania`s logging operations in the Wielangta forest breach the Regional Forest Agreement (RFA), signed between the Commonwealth and Tasmanian governments.
The Federal Court in Hobart also found that the company does not have an exemption under relevant environment protection laws.
Senator Brown argued in court that forestry operations in the Wielangta State Forest, in south-east Tasmania, endangered a rare beetle, the swift parrot and the wedge-tailed eagle.
He says his decision to take legal action to protect the three threatened species has been vindicated.
`They cannot continue to clearfell log in our old-growth forests as they`ve been doing, because it is threatening rare and endangered species,` he said.
`Let me say this, I don`t know of a logging operation in Tasmania which is not threatening listed rare and endangered species. I don`t know of one.`
Senator Brown says the ruling should be the catalyst for an immediate review of all logging operations in Australia.
He says the decision is a milestone in environmental legal history.
--pogo (pat) [forever and always]
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I've had the same thoughts, and statements, several times as well. It's always met by some big tyriad about how non-humanitarian I am and how horrible and uncaring of a person I am.
Whatever.
I'm not PC in my thoughts or speech.
But while I am sure good ole Mama N. is getting ticked at the destruction, I still think a large part of it really is simple human stupidity...setting up a city in an oceanside bowl, placing a village on the side of a rumbling volcano, etc. The same as the environmental impact of building a Wal-Mart on what was swamp causes flooding in nearby neighborhoods (read about it today) or logging lowering a water table isn't truly concidered....though it should be.
I also have to say sweet sister that I think more than a few are trying to rectify the situation. Many states are jumping on the environmental legistlation bandwagon and putting a great deal more pressure on Dubya to go along with the global agreements, which is really good.
Arnie is a huge spearhead in this over in Cali.
Written by: fyrespirit
Yes...it's horrible when these things happen...but in my viewpoint...
Mama is just trying to reclaim a bit of what was hers in the first place...
We destroy her creations...she destroys ours...
Only fair!!!
I've had the same thoughts, and statements, several times as well. It's always met by some big tyriad about how non-humanitarian I am and how horrible and uncaring of a person I am.
Whatever.
I'm not PC in my thoughts or speech.
But while I am sure good ole Mama N. is getting ticked at the destruction, I still think a large part of it really is simple human stupidity...setting up a city in an oceanside bowl, placing a village on the side of a rumbling volcano, etc. The same as the environmental impact of building a Wal-Mart on what was swamp causes flooding in nearby neighborhoods (read about it today) or logging lowering a water table isn't truly concidered....though it should be.
I also have to say sweet sister that I think more than a few are trying to rectify the situation. Many states are jumping on the environmental legistlation bandwagon and putting a great deal more pressure on Dubya to go along with the global agreements, which is really good.
Arnie is a huge spearhead in this over in Cali.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Pooh-Bah
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
Posted:
um... I can be a pedant too.
Sym is very directly criticising and insulting Americans, not just their country.
Just in case you missed it, that implies that he thought Americans were ignorant before this discussion, and after reading Pele's post now he thinks they're More ignorant.
I think Pele is fairly justified in her reaction to such insults being flung her way.
Written by: Liquifies_Through_Contact
Um... [pedant]
Sym isn't criticising AMERICANS. He's criticising AMERICA. as a nation. not you, your neighbours, your friends, anyone that comes from there, but he is criticising the way the US is run. I must say, I agree with him.
um... I can be a pedant too.
Sym is very directly criticising and insulting Americans, not just their country.
Written by: Sym
...that needs a even higher level of ignorance than I thought Americans had.
Just in case you missed it, that implies that he thought Americans were ignorant before this discussion, and after reading Pele's post now he thinks they're More ignorant.
I think Pele is fairly justified in her reaction to such insults being flung her way.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I think he's just redefining the word "Americans" to mean "Stupid People", not actually to mean people that live in America.
Like "Dude, I almost dropped a match into the container of whitegas, that would have been American."
It's cool cuz I have friends that are American. NotThatThere'sAnythingWrongWithThat.
Written by: Molly
um... I can be a pedant too.
Sym is very directly criticising and insulting Americans, not just their country.Written by: Sym
...that needs a even higher level of ignorance than I thought Americans had.
Just in case you missed it, that implies that he thought Americans were ignorant before this discussion, and after reading Pele's post now he thinks they're More ignorant.
I think Pele is fairly justified in her reaction to such insults being flung her way.
I think he's just redefining the word "Americans" to mean "Stupid People", not actually to mean people that live in America.
Like "Dude, I almost dropped a match into the container of whitegas, that would have been American."
It's cool cuz I have friends that are American. NotThatThere'sAnythingWrongWithThat.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
I thought it was a well known fact that Americans were dumb.
I thought it was a well known fact that Americans were dumb.
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Hey hey, don't go derailing yet another thread with your thinly veiled intolerance again!
Hey hey, don't go derailing yet another thread with your thinly veiled intolerance again!
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
journeyman
90 posts
Location: Perth, West Australia
journeyman
90 posts
Location: Perth, West Australia
Posted:
If buying ANYTHING made from timber I'd recommend that you check that it's made from plantation forests as the word "sustainable" has been hijacked by the spin doctors to justify some appalling practices.
Destruction of old growth forest is happening everywhere, including New Zealand. Nothofagus forest (aka southern beech) in Southland is being destroyed under the disguise of "sustainabale forestry". I've flown over these areas, seen the destruction and this logging is NOT sustainable, despite the claims of the forestry company. Beech is a flanking species (i.e. spreads from it's edges) and the practice of leaving 'seed trees' in a cleared area is not appropriate, not to mention the devistation caused to the usually diverse understorey. There are also the issues of invasive weeds spreading into the cleared areas, loss of nutrients, loss of habitat and who knows what's happening at the invertabrate level.
I could rant for many pages on environmental destruction (wanna see what a mine does to the environment?) but I suspect I'd just be preaching to the converted. Right, I'd better go have a spin to calm down.
If buying ANYTHING made from timber I'd recommend that you check that it's made from plantation forests as the word "sustainable" has been hijacked by the spin doctors to justify some appalling practices.
Destruction of old growth forest is happening everywhere, including New Zealand. Nothofagus forest (aka southern beech) in Southland is being destroyed under the disguise of "sustainabale forestry". I've flown over these areas, seen the destruction and this logging is NOT sustainable, despite the claims of the forestry company. Beech is a flanking species (i.e. spreads from it's edges) and the practice of leaving 'seed trees' in a cleared area is not appropriate, not to mention the devistation caused to the usually diverse understorey. There are also the issues of invasive weeds spreading into the cleared areas, loss of nutrients, loss of habitat and who knows what's happening at the invertabrate level.
I could rant for many pages on environmental destruction (wanna see what a mine does to the environment?) but I suspect I'd just be preaching to the converted. Right, I'd better go have a spin to calm down.
"What drives life is...a little electric current kept up by the sunshine." Albert Szent-Gyorgi
GOLD Member
journeyman
90 posts
Location: Perth, West Australia
journeyman
90 posts
Location: Perth, West Australia
Posted:
Ooops, forgot to mention that recycled timber is even better than plantation stuff. Shocking for me to forget considering I spent my summer breaks while at University de-nailing rimu, matai etc for a demolition company.
Ooops, forgot to mention that recycled timber is even better than plantation stuff. Shocking for me to forget considering I spent my summer breaks while at University de-nailing rimu, matai etc for a demolition company.
"What drives life is...a little electric current kept up by the sunshine." Albert Szent-Gyorgi
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Sorry, I don't think I quite understand...
The forest was logged, therefore the town got flooded with the rain run off? Because from my understanding the opposite is actually the norm. Its when trees are removed, that the run off decreases (by 50%). Old growth doesn't actually require all that much water, and therefore when the trees are actually there and it rains, there is more run off. This is another contributing factor to Australia's drought; logging of our water catchments leading to 50% less run off and therefore 50% less water.
Sure, landslides can occur without strong tree and root systems to keep the soil in place, but for the rain to just run off...must have been a very wet area to begin with!
Written by: Pele
Rougie, we had a town that my friend lives in that recently had the reverse problem that Geelong is facing. The hillside near his town was recently logged. The trees actually helped with rain run off and the like. This past spring the town experienced flooding for the first time in its entire history. There was a good layer of silt left on everything as a result of it. It was quite terrible.
Sorry, I don't think I quite understand...
The forest was logged, therefore the town got flooded with the rain run off? Because from my understanding the opposite is actually the norm. Its when trees are removed, that the run off decreases (by 50%). Old growth doesn't actually require all that much water, and therefore when the trees are actually there and it rains, there is more run off. This is another contributing factor to Australia's drought; logging of our water catchments leading to 50% less run off and therefore 50% less water.
Sure, landslides can occur without strong tree and root systems to keep the soil in place, but for the rain to just run off...must have been a very wet area to begin with!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk
enthusiast
363 posts
Location: manchester uk
Posted:
tree farming its the way forward get large companys to make money out of planting huge tracts of forest. i think thats the key. i would suggest petitioning the goverment to put high taxes on non-farmed trees and/or offer tax brakes or even subsides to companys that farm trees.
the key to solveing the problem lies in changeing the profitability of diffrent kinds of logging.
(0f coures i haven't actualy check for all i know they might be doing this already )
EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166792337)
tree farming its the way forward get large companys to make money out of planting huge tracts of forest. i think thats the key. i would suggest petitioning the goverment to put high taxes on non-farmed trees and/or offer tax brakes or even subsides to companys that farm trees.
the key to solveing the problem lies in changeing the profitability of diffrent kinds of logging.
(0f coures i haven't actualy check for all i know they might be doing this already
)EDITED_BY: robnunchucks (1166792337)
My nunchucks vital statictics
weight: 500g
handle lenght: 16 inches
chain length: 2 inches
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
It's not that simple, but yes, plantations will help a lot. But their locations need to be very carefully selected and their maintenance rigidly kept.
It's not that simple, but yes, plantations will help a lot. But their locations need to be very carefully selected and their maintenance rigidly kept.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Future Mrs Pogo
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
4,728 posts
Location: The wrong place
Posted:
There is a very large area right here where I live that is being bought off bit by bit and turned into a tree farm...
Our area has been farm land for ages and now with the downfall of tobacco crops, more of our farmers are looking for a different type of 'crop.' So that's one of the few positives that have happened as far as logging and farming goes in this area.
Don't think anyone is debating the idea that it's NOT horrible what's happening...and don't think this thread was started for anyone to insult anyone else...
So can't we just stop with that sort of thing and stick with the topic on hand???
There is a very large area right here where I live that is being bought off bit by bit and turned into a tree farm...
Our area has been farm land for ages and now with the downfall of tobacco crops, more of our farmers are looking for a different type of 'crop.' So that's one of the few positives that have happened as far as logging and farming goes in this area.
Don't think anyone is debating the idea that it's NOT horrible what's happening...and don't think this thread was started for anyone to insult anyone else...
So can't we just stop with that sort of thing and stick with the topic on hand???
"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Sorry, I just need to vent:
You this this is a hard topic in English?
You should bloody try it in Japanese! SO doing my head in right now!
Sorry, I just need to vent:
You this this is a hard topic in English?
You should bloody try it in Japanese! SO doing my head in right now!
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
trees help with decreasing run off...they keep soil where it belongs which absorbs rain...the roots aerate so there are more holes for the water to run through...when an area is logged the soil gets compacted in some areas and torn up and away from-say-grass root systems that hold the soil together
in my resource management class, we are told deforestation leads to increase run off and therefore pele's flooding town story is more than plausible, it is exactly what we are told will happen, which is why many logging companies are doing select cutting and slowly moving away from clear cutting as it will not be sustainable in the long run
trees help with decreasing run off...they keep soil where it belongs which absorbs rain...the roots aerate so there are more holes for the water to run through...when an area is logged the soil gets compacted in some areas and torn up and away from-say-grass root systems that hold the soil together
in my resource management class, we are told deforestation leads to increase run off and therefore pele's flooding town story is more than plausible, it is exactly what we are told will happen, which is why many logging companies are doing select cutting and slowly moving away from clear cutting as it will not be sustainable in the long run
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Yes, root systems help with erosion but,
I have 92 pages worth of that if anyone is interested in a link
Yes, root systems help with erosion but,
Written by: The impact of logging on water yield and Victorian water supply
Logging reduces water supply because old growth forests use relatively little water,allowing large amounts of water to flow into streams and catchments...reduce streamflow by up to 50%...
I have 92 pages worth of that if anyone is interested in a link
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
If anything, logging will increase the water supply, simply because there's no trees left to use the water. The key to the issue of water and loggng is water quality, not quantity.
There's a whole host of factors that come into play here, soil compaction being only one of them, others include an increase in nutrients ( which leads to alge bloobs in rivers and streams ), an increase in dissolved and suspended solids ( which increase turbidity) , effects on soil water pH due to rotting organic mater on the now exposed and warmer forest floor.
The beggest problem re logging and water is road building, especially BAD road building. I've seen whole sides of mountains come down due to improperly constructed roads
If anything, logging will increase the water supply, simply because there's no trees left to use the water. The key to the issue of water and loggng is water quality, not quantity.
There's a whole host of factors that come into play here, soil compaction being only one of them, others include an increase in nutrients ( which leads to alge bloobs in rivers and streams ), an increase in dissolved and suspended solids ( which increase turbidity) , effects on soil water pH due to rotting organic mater on the now exposed and warmer forest floor.
The beggest problem re logging and water is road building, especially BAD road building. I've seen whole sides of mountains come down due to improperly constructed roads
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
If you would like
If you would like
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
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