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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:I'll not name, but here are people using word 'gay', to

have fun from others, but I think it is quite unfair.



Sexual orientation is personal thing and someone

can feel accused. Have fun, but talk moral.



no comment,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes, it really is sweet of us, to act with tolerance and compassion in response to requests/demands from the gay community. Isn't this what they wanted ?

Now if gay is to go the way the word nigger did, that is to be acceptable for blacks to use with other blacks ( but if I, a white guy, went and called my black neighbour a nigger, he'd pop my head like a zit ) and be acceptable for gays to use with other gays, that's a different thing altogether.


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Er... do people actually really care this much?
8 pages of arsing around FFS

Some people (though it seems very few) seem to think other people find it offensive, even fewer find it offensive themselves.

No-one who uses it on this board uses it offensively.

So it's 8 pages of trying to persuade a small minority that they're in the minority umm and the vast majority of people on this board aren't going to change anything about the way they post/speak.

And I thought my "What is Dance" discussion was pointless... wink

You know what?
You're all GAY

tongue


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Oh, and who changed the thread title to "HOP Gay Racism"?

a) Last time I checked, homosexuality isn't a race (Pink Passport anyone wink )
b) It's not ever said in a derogatory manner - it might have derogatory implications, but can't people just accept that actually they're 2 completely different words? So branding everyone who uses it as a slang term as a racist is waaaaaaaaaay off the mark.


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Finally - who's to say we're not using a warped version of the original meaning of word? Hmmmm?

Would make a lot more sense...
The move is gay = That move is really happy and nice
You're sooooo gay = Gosh, you look happy and bright today
Hmmm, can you try and make that look less gay? = Please stop smiling and poncing and learn some planes hippy


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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Stout, don't mean to undermime your obvious compassion and acceptance of us, but acceptance also means acknowledging that we have flaws, have differences of opinion within our own culture. Some are nice, some are obnoxious and that everyone should treated as individuals. This extends to our use of language - As I've stressed - language and communication are not the same thing. Words, as well as actions should be treated individually.



I definitely on trying to crack down on homophobic bullying in schools where face-to-face interaction and the threat of physical violence is rife but will that crackdown extend to a group of gay people who choose to use the phrase within their own circle?



It's a part of the whole 'whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger' ethos. Most of us have had to put up with alot of sh*t either from other people or own own fragile little psyches but have come out stronger for it. Calling ourselves the derogatory names is just part of the strengthing thing.



You can't claim to know how you would be if you were gay anymore than I could claim to know what it would be like to be straight. And i don't mean in terms of sexuality but know your place in the world and how that would shape you as a human being. In all fairness I could turn out to be the most homophobic misoginist you've met, but I will never know... Saying that, your concern for those in high school, its a time when EVERYONE is vulnerable, not just gay people, struggling to find their place in the world.



Seriously, don't put this off fighting for gay rights as I realise this may come across as ungrateful but there are other gay issues that have wider implications like gay marriage, adoption, military service etc, msotly issues regarding legal rights. And those involved aren't really ones that will bandy about the phrase 'That's soooo gay!'


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Durbs



Oh, and who changed the thread title to "HOP Gay Racism"?



a) Last time I checked, homosexuality isn't a race (Pink Passport anyone wink )





This has been discussed. IN THIS THREAD. Do a Durbs. Or maybe read the thread.



tongue



Richee originally mistitled the thread "racist" as English is not his first language. That was cleared up after about three posts.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: mcp


I don't know anyone on this board who's used 'gay' in the ironic sense, without knowing the person on the other end will be fine with it, or when one of the participants in the conversation is gay, both, or when both of those conditions are true.




I can't see the logic when there are thousands of people who are 'on the other end'.

You said it and Richee's not fine with it.

I don't think you and I having a public discussion about how "British Firespinners are all pricks" is covered under "No, it's cool, Meg's a British Fire Spinner and I we were having a private conversation even though we posted it on a public forum."

It's not OK for you to call me a derrogatory name for Italians on a public forum just because I don't care.

And again, it makes me uncomfortable to have this vibe of "It's OK to insult an entire group as long as that group isn't listening or the members of the group that are listening don't care."

It's prejudice and it's immoral.

shrug


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Thing is, we, the straight community are getting mixed messages here. Back in tho oh so politically correct 1990's, when everyone who could, revelled in a sense of victimhood and complained that theie lives were miserable to to the actions, words and thoughts of us, the straight white male .A lot of fuss was made about the nature of language and communication with an air trying to "correct" just how we related to each other.

I present hate crime legislation ( and it's relation to free speech) , and sexual harassment as two examples of just HOW "we" were expected to change.

I know most of the pc ideas crossed into the realm of the ridiculous, but some of that attitude actually stuck.

So now it's OK for straight people to use gay as a negative?? I don't care how the gay community uses it, that's their choice. As to how it's used here on Hop, well that's a different matter too. Now, I'm well aware that most of you actually know each other in person, and may well have insights into each others attitudes when it comes to homophobia, but to a guy like me, who's just on one end of an internet connection, I lack these insights.

I'm not really fighting for gay rights per say, I'm more amazed that the gay community just rolled over and put all four paws in the air at ( what I percieve as a ) new meaning of the word gay. That's the mixed message I'm getting.

Do you figure I should just drop the whole thing ?


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: Stout


I'm not really fighting for gay rights per say, I'm more amazed that the gay community just rolled over and put all four paws in the air at ( what I percieve as a ) new meaning of the word gay. That's the mixed message I'm getting.



Ahhh, but you see - it's a "new meaning of the word" - I personally use the word without any reference to sexuality whatsoever. It's just a word
Sooo....
 Written by: Stout

Do you figure I should just drop the whole thing ?


Yes wink


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: NYC


 Written by: mcp


I don't know anyone on this board who's used 'gay' in the ironic sense, without knowing the person on the other end will be fine with it, or when one of the participants in the conversation is gay, both, or when both of those conditions are true.



I can't see the logic when there are thousands of people who are 'on the other end'.




Says Mr. Downright-Rude-if-you-didn't-know-him-from-HoP ?!
Mate, 90% of yours posts are scathingly sarcastic, yet I/we only know them to be sarcastic as we've been on HoP a while and know your "personality" (meh, need a better word).

"Hello Pot, this is Mr Kettle" wink


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Chronofracture333
Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush
Member Since: 15th Jun 2005
Total posts: 329
Posted:Where is this gay community, why do I never get a newsletter?



The grouping of very different people under these sorts of general titles is actually the sort of language that concerns me. It suggests much that isn't true and helps prevent true communication and understanding.



Ideally I don't want tolerance and acceptance of my sexuality, these are things that you actively have to do. It implies that secretly it still disturbs you. I'd rather it just be invisible. Nobody tolerates and accepts my blue eyes. Nor does anyone define me by them....



meditate


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted: Written by: Stout



Thing is, we, the straight community are getting mixed messages here. Back in tho oh so politically correct 1990's, when everyone who could, revelled in a sense of victimhood and complained that theie lives were miserable to to the actions, words and thoughts of us, the straight white male .A lot of fuss was made about the nature of language and communication with an air trying to "correct" just how we related to each other.

I'm not really fighting for gay rights per say, I'm more amazed that the gay community just rolled over and put all four paws in the air at ( what I percieve as a ) new meaning of the word gay. That's the mixed message I'm getting.




Those 'mixed messages' are just a sign of the times changing. Back then, when gays were still fighting for acceptance and want to be acknowledged as being part of society and that their activities weren't something to be clased as criminal - even after it was legalised and stuck off the mental illness register - and trying to overcome the stigma of AIDS. Section 28 a law which was put in place by the Thatcher government that makes it illegal for a local education authority to 'Promote Homosexuality' in schools. Meaning that it was not included in sex education and it was unlawful to say something like 'its okay to be gay' which effectively mde it impossible to combat homophobic bullying in the manner where its easily to deal with racist bullying.

That law has only recently been repealed. Times have changed, gay is now everywhere. It is so common place that you have openly gay children's TV presenters, a transexual can win Big Brother, Queer Eye for the Straight guy is now prime timeviewing and you can buy Will & Grace at ASDA/Walmart. Brokeback Mountain was a contender for Best Picture at the Oscars. Most importantly - kids can come out at high school without devastating consequences. Even though there is still homophobia it's now been gradually accepted into the mainstream.

But with acceptance an assimilation, there comes a price. In essence, an underground culture has been unearthed and made populists. Big corporations now market themselves to 'the pink pound'. The gay scenes have become popular and have become homogenised and somewhat sterile. There has also been a feeling of gays being treated less like humans but as issue-crusading ego boost or fashion accessory of the week (how many annoying girls have you heard say 'oh I've always wanted a gay friend!' Yes we are accepted but as people or as a status symbol - for good and bad.

Gay people now feel like - 'yes we are accepted but we want to be accepted as individuals, defined by our personality quirks, tastes in music interests etc, by our strengths, and just as importantly by our flaws.' Because we as people make mistakes. To make mistakes is to be human. How much more of a mistake is it than to allow ourselves to be privy to the use of an expression which has long been an element of oppression but now adopt it into our own venacular using it like its negative use but in the manner of a nonchalant friendly jibe.

 Written by: Stout



So now it's OK for straight people to use gay as a negative?? I don't care how the gay community uses it, that's their choice. As to how it's used here on Hop, well that's a different matter too. Now, I'm well aware that most of you actually know each other in person, and may well have insights into each others attitudes when it comes to homophobia, but to a guy like me, who's just on one end of an internet connection, I lack these insights.






It's human nature to challenge ourselves, to test our limits. Even if the edge isn't supposed to be desirable - like we watch horror films, partake in extreme sports FIRE SPIN. In this case, the use of a series of words which is SUPPOSED to hurt us. But it doesn't. Like watching a horror movie we need to seek out danger in order to know we can survive it. Now the more the homophobes call it us, the more we realise - we survive it. So them we use it ourselves against ourselves, against our straight friends, a subverse of the norm. And guess what - they survive it too. Friendship is built on trust. Trust is allowing someone to be in a position to hurt you knowing they won't. We call ourselves the name given to us by our oppressors and survive. We call it at our straight friends -THEY survive, they call it back to us WE survive.

So now you can say we use it alot to remind us of the bridge we have built, that we are friends for a reason and one of us being gay hasn't been an obstacle to that friendship. Sure, it's still an issue as something so intrinsically integral to ourselves is expected to be, but its an issue that even these people can't see why there's still such a fuss over!


 Written by: Stout



Do you figure I should just drop the whole thing ?





Not for the sake of dropping it, if you still have issues then lets hear them. How else are we gonna learn from you or you from us. Despite my bloody-mindedness on the subject you still bring up points and perspectives i;ve not even thought about. If you think we've made a mistake TELL US. That's what calling each other derogatorily contexted phrasesis about - it's a sign that its okay to challenge each other as friends and individuals...

soapbox Bloody hell its high up up here!

Shall all just hug kiss and make up? grouphug peace

Sod that I'm gonna beat the crap out of you on Tekken ya big gay!!! nana biggrin devil spank mad2

meditate

weavesmiley


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:*sigh*

I hope people don't class me purely by my sexuality. God that'd be gay.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Well you do have a thing for rainbows... That's pretty gay tongue

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Rainbows kick ass!

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Chronofracture333
Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush
Member Since: 15th Jun 2005
Total posts: 329
Posted:So is sleeping with men...

Wait that means there are no straight women.

biggrin


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:There's always your uberstaffer cloning programme you discussed the other day wink

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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TinyPixie
TinyPixie

enthusiast
Location: in the clouds...
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 394
Posted:Chrono333: ... or are the only straight women the gay ones?? I'm so confused!

The one thing that has kinda stuck out of this whole thread for me is that there ARE lots of people reading these threads! I know it's kind of obvious, but it never really enters my mind when I post, I'm just really communicating with the other people posting, some of who I know really rather well. Makes me wonder, should we therefore censor ourselves more because this is a public forum?

shrug


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Durbs


 Written by: NYC


 Written by: mcp


I don't know anyone on this board who's used 'gay' in the ironic sense, without knowing the person on the other end will be fine with it, or when one of the participants in the conversation is gay, both, or when both of those conditions are true.



I can't see the logic when there are thousands of people who are 'on the other end'.




Says Mr. Downright-Rude-if-you-didn't-know-him-from-HoP ?!
Mate, 90% of yours posts are scathingly sarcastic, yet I/we only know them to be sarcastic as we've been on HoP a while and know your "personality" (meh, need a better word).

"Hello Pot, this is Mr Kettle" wink



This isn't sarcasm. This is people actually believing that the word 'gay' means 'rubbish' and seeing no harm in that. I make a point that my sarcasm makes sense out of context so I'm sure to put a wink after it if there's a chance it will offend those not in the current discussion.

Then again, sarcasm requires a level of intelligence so I can see how you could get confused.

[See, sarcasm.]


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jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:ubblol

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ok the times they are a changin'...I can live with that.

I need a mid-life crisis or something to put my finger back on the pulse of popular culture because it seems that the attitude that the word gay being used as a negative is only a positive among young people.

I posed this question on another board today , and due to HoP posting guidelines, I won't link to the thread ( bad words ) but I'm not really sure what came out of the thread, my feeling is that using this word in this way, is less than acceptable.

Interesting to read that acceptance can be equated to assimillation, I suppose it's comparable to multiculturalisim being compared to monoculturism.

I do see your point about the reasons for wanting to reclaim the word, your insights are enlightening, but I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to use the word as a negative, but I will endevour to be less critical of those who do.

For the really bored, here's 106 opinions as to the meaning of the word gay


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:chronos: "Ideally I don't want tolerance and acceptance of my sexuality, these are things that you actively have to do. It implies that secretly it still disturbs you. I'd rather it just be invisible. Nobody tolerates and accepts my blue eyes. Nor does anyone define me by them...."

Couldn't have said it better myself, and if I had done, it would have been off topic.

 Written by: NYC


 Written by: mcp


I don't know anyone on this board who's used 'gay' in the ironic sense, without knowing the person on the other end will be fine with it, or when one of the participants in the conversation is gay, both, or when both of those conditions are true.




I can't see the logic when there are thousands of people who are 'on the other end'.

You said it and Richee's not fine with it.

I don't think you and I having a public discussion about how "British Firespinners are all pricks" is covered under "No, it's cool, Meg's a British Fire Spinner and I we were having a private conversation even though we posted it on a public forum."




as durbs didn't quite say: Considering your 'sarcasm' has been so well disguised it insulted even your friends, you're one to talk.

Richee isn't gay. He can feel insulted in a "playing the white man" sort of way if he likes.

When I say in direct reply to someone "You're gay" I'm saying it to them. Sure thousands of people might be listening, but it isn't an open letter. It's a public forum more related to the act of talking rather than writing. That's how I view it. And nor do i consider and make sure my appearance isn't offensive to straight white people before I walk out the door, into the public street. (Though I think I would have to be undressed for it to be properly offensive.)

I'm not addressing the comment, "you are gay" at these thousands of people, so they can't talk offense that way. Sure they can go and use it outside of the context that they heard it in, just like I did when i was a kid with many words I didn't fully understand, like: transpose. Doesn't make it a tranpose correct usage. And yeah, maybe if we didn't use it and tv never allowed swearwords before the watershed, kids would never learn them. Cos kids can never have strong emotions, nor views / attitudes / language different to their parents. That would be criminal.

kids will learn from the kids slightly older than them, and their peers, cos that's the people that will run the world when they become adults. I should know, I cos the saying from my peers, and buggered if I'll listen to any of you old folk.

So maybe they can take offense at the perceived homosexuals harmed / insulted by this new use. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't think we need you to be insulted for us. We're not so weak that we need straight people to stand up for us. (and I mean straight in both senses at this point.)

And hopefully we can tell other gay peoples this same stuff using the gay newsletter, the gay telephone directory and the underground gay railroad songs. sweet!

Mollydog! FTW!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Drudwyn
Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni
Member Since: 27th Aug 2005
Total posts: 632
Posted:I'm amazed. An on topic and to the point post by Meg!

Although I'd like to know what gay underground railroad songs you know...


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:ditto (the railroad songs)

Getting to the other side smile

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: mcp



as durbs didn't quite say: Considering your 'sarcasm' has been so well disguised it insulted even your friends, you're one to talk.

I'm not addressing the comment, "you are gay" at these thousands of people, so they can't talk offense that way.



Getting weak dude.

Already addressed the difference between being sarcastic and using someone's identity as an insult.

Already addressed the difference between joking with someone publicly and degrading a third parties identity.

You understand my point and on a fundamental level I'm sure you agree with some of it. But you kinda like the joke and you think it's funny even though you kinda know it's wrong so you're constructing an argument so that you can keep doing what you're doing.

Which I actually have way more respect for than trying to ACTUALLY convince me that using the word 'Gay' in a derogatory way isn't derogatory towards gays.


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Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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wonderloey
wonderloey

enthusiast
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Member Since: 21st Feb 2006
Total posts: 255
Posted:Just something that occurred to me while I was on break...

How did "happy and bright" come to mean "homosexual"?

It didn't. They both come from an older usage of the word "gay" which referred to gay as being a prostitute, mainly towards women. So 150 years ago, a gay girl was a prostitute. Of course, the rent boys of the time also became gay boys, rent boy = homosexual (in popular belief, at any rate) and over time, the prostitution reference lost its meaning, which makes referring to homosexuals as gay to have lost its teeth, so to speak.

The main problem that I have with the use of the word "gay" meaning "generally negative" is that it is.. well.. general. Why make a new use of an existing word that adds absolutely nothing to the meaning of it? What's wrong with "odious" or "boring" or "shoddy".. why use a general negative word when there are better, non-offensive words you can use that will get your meaning accross?


"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman

Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.

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strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted: Written by: NYC


..... trying to ACTUALLY convince me that using the word 'Gay' in a derogatory way isn't derogatory towards gays.



Depends if they take it personally........

Its like me calling all you lot Muppets!

then kermit getting upset....... shrug or miss piggy even..... eek

wink


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Then again 'Muppet' can be a euphemism for 'gay' tongue

(Think about it...)


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:*stifles a laugh*

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:rolleyes

smile


Getting to the other side smile

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