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Forums > Social Chat > 2012, nanotech, animism, dimensional theories

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:science nerd like me? sacred geometry new age buff? check this out. (12 strand artificial dna, NON ratcheted dodecahedron, just around the corner. 5th element type stuff)nerd stuff



<small>[ 11. April 2003, 22:44: Message edited by: arashi ]</small>

EDITED_BY: arashi (1093222117)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:but unless you know waaaay more about hebrew than i do, and can explain the morphology of the letters to ME, so we can get _down_ to metaphysical science, we are going to have to use terms that cross cultural boundaries, such as "faery" which might bring out negative biases in some and complete fact to others.

but anyway, it seems like i've tried to respond to your inquiries so far, (and stix still needs some help) really what i mean by frequencies, there isn't a word for, and if there is, please let me know, i'd love to... that's "MY" word. electromagnetic signature? not sure.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:speaking of electromagnetics, here's some interesting propositions by a military level physicist, seems pretty kooky so far, talking about cold fusion, and way beyond... any body that's worked with electronics may find this interesting... i'm warning you tho, it 's a THICK read, like chocolate death cake... and i think he does have a bit of his "personal" research slant... grab a dictionary and sit somewhere comfortable

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:but science is just so darn fallible... every few years, something turns science 180 degrees, and everything gets turned around.

I call this scientific refinement..Using certain theories get us so far(thus why they are used), and then they are replaced by another refinement that gets us farther..This is all in the process of advancements, the higher evolution of theories. As we learn more, more knowledge is combined into yet more theorems, knowledge continues expounding...


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:i agree

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:so do I..

I think..


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:people people people, please do not pull me into this thread!

Arashi, I love you, but please don't take the word of a "popular science" article over quantum mechanics. I've taken far too many quantum mechanics classes (let's see... 5?) to let this pass though. The uncertainty principle is not a limitation of tools or technology. It is a fundemental fact of nature and has many many independant verifications. Measuring an electron in one place and then measuring it in other cannot possibly give you any idea where you will find it the next time (within the limits of the uncertainty principle that is). Someone there made the mistake of applying newtonian mechanics to quantum mechanics - you just can't do that. If you could, there would be no use for quantum mechanics. Also, many things that are purported to be violations of the uncertainy principle are in fact mearly creative uses of it (but more usually just plain bullsh*#). Point in fact, life would not exist as we know it without the uncertainty principle as the fusion process that powers our sun and every other star is wholy dependant on it through a process refered to as potential barrier tunneling which could not exist if the uncertainty principle were not true. Indeed, the very structure of everything from the universe to a proton relies on it as well. So please, I beg you, do not throw away the uncertainty principle, or the universe may come to an end and all the atoms in your body explode. Do not abuse quantum mechanics - it does so much for you and hardly asks a thing from you except for abiding by a few easy to follow rules like the heisenburg uncertainty principle and the pauli exclusion principle.

that get me on to my next soap box - another highly abused science theory - entropy. Every one thinks entropy is this bad thing that takes order and turns it into choas. But really entropy is also vital to our and the universe's existance. Without entropy, stars would not shine, galaxies, planets, air, water, and you and I would not exist. you would not be able to eat or walk or spin poi. Entropy does not hinder the game - it is the game - the only game.It does not hinder - it enables. It denies us absolute efficiency simply because nothing can work if it is 100 percent efficient (how's that for a catch 22?) Ok, I know I know, no one was talking about entropy.

And science never really gets so turned on its head. Sure new theories are always coming along, but this is almost always evolution, not revolution. Newtonian mechanics is still accurate enough for most engineers. General relativity is only a correction to it that is neccisary only under extreme circumstances.Choas theory does not make previous science wrong, but it does manage to explain much that was beyond our capabilities before.

Ok, sorry Arashi if this felt like it was aimed at you. Somewhere in this thread my physics feathers got ruffled and you happened to be standing there next to it when I saw it.Clearly I've been a physict too long I know you were teasing. Actually I wish you and I could get together at Flipside and have a nice chat about life, the universe, and everything while watching the sun come up. But that is about 8000 miles too far away this year.

what was this thread about anyway?


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:btw on that last link, i'll get to it sooner or later, (but it's 6 AM and that means it's dinner time, and you freaks kept me from my chain practice! or does hangin at HOP count as chain practice? if so some of us will be the world's greatest in notime!) but he even mentioned in that article molecular memory, didn't get to the link yet. (akashic record is somewhere in there, perhaps?) my look, you've read dune, right, for f@ck's sake it's all there! pLus if you guys are actually listening to me, watch out,i don't make any sense. i'm totally pulling this stuff oput of my butt.
see, lookie here!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:vanize, that's the first thing i thought, "isn't he applying newtonian physics?" pictures you with big fluffy feathers

but, hey, it's a thought, one only worthy of a digression at that. i don't think we need to throw uncertainty away, just get around it, dammit i want to transport matter with nanotechnology atomic block building "dozers!" hmmm... but do we need to know a particles position really, can't we just move the space itself?

[ 03. April 2003, 00:43: Message edited by: arashi ]


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:my, since there are real physicist here now we can get down! (pulling vanize back in, he is, use the dark side he will, if he must)

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Ok, Arashi pulled me back in damn it.

So for transporting matter - if you think about what the uncertainty principle says, then you will realize that you don't have to put the things back together with any more accuracy than you can measure them with since it is not an inherent flaw in the measurement system but actually a kind of slack in the space/time/energy continium we are talking about (the actual verifiable truth to this will blow you friggin mind actually, but I don't have the enegy to type up an example). So there is no need to know exactly where everything is or where it goes - get it reordered to the limits of the uncertainty principle and that's all you need - that's as much accuracy as the universe cares about. It saves you a lot of trouble really.

these are not restrictions - just the way things work. Look at them as limitations and they will limit you. But they can be used as powerful tools as well if one uses a little more creativity (and still remembers to abide by the other rules of nature as well).


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:P.S. Arashi - I'll woked on the ruffled physics feather thing for a flipside of burninman costume for 2004 or so. Of course I'll have to find something besides actual feathers, but I'm sure I can devise somethingto display my indignance at the blatent display of popular science gone off course.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:well, see here's my problem. i believe in molecular memory, i the akashic sense, but also by that in purely science trerms, i mean that a position is related to it's very existence. that's why transporters freak me out in star trek, i wonder, what if they reassemble a different you, if perhaps the unknown position of the particle, even if we don't know it it's still there, but what if the popsition is related to the quantum space, in that your dimension carries a certain position for you and you alone, and a differnet quantum result carries a different position,.
i tend took look at everything as infinite in all directions, infinite threads, but that's just me.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Mysterio - Lord Of Confusion


member
Location: I came from somewhere of this ...

Total posts: 65
Posted:I completely agree about sci-fi transporters. The theories by which they're generally meant to work basically mean that they're duplicators that then delete the original. Not for me, thanks very much.

"Thats very confusing"

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:man that made no sense, huh? what i mean is, even though we don't KNOW the position, how can we be sure it isn't vitally imporatant, a manifestation of a certain quantum path? and to also use those shaman terms if you like me are trying to put these things together, what if the position, is the footprint of it's Karma? everything is exactly as it should be. if you knew the position of every particle, wouldn't you know the future and the past? so, does a particle know it's position, or what? is it not where it is as a result of it's past interactions? so even though we can't, if we knew where it was, wouldn't we be god?

to me, quantum mechanics seems like simply the best we could ever possibly do with science, perhaps?, but definitely falling short of universal awareness, muad'dib prescience, heck, far short of a sweat lodge. i want to know the underlying math, not the "best we can achieve with particle colliders"
steps back


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:tee hee hee...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:you know i'm playing cuz quantum mechanics allows for mind interaction with matter, doesn't it? so it's on "MY side"... which has been determined by an arashiwide poll to mean whatever i feel like thinking about at the time...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:So the basis of the uncertainty principle lies in the basic fact that there is no such thing as solid matter in the first place. An electron or the quarkes that make up a proton or a nuetron or a muon or whatever are really just standing waves. And not even really standing waves of any particular sort, but just a wave function that descibes some probability of something that someone more naive than us would call a point particle being somewhere in particular. Of course this particle doesn't really exist. It can't since its physical size would be smaller than the uncertainty principle.

If you want to talk about molucular memeory, well, molucules are many many times bigger than electrons (much smaller in comparison than the earth would be to the solar system if I recall correctly - I'll edit this post if I bother find a relavant text book and make a calculation that says otherwise, but don't hold your breath). So what you need to know to keep your molecular memory is not likely to be affected much by the uncertainty principle (UP). Things like quark spin color and flavor can be uniquely determined without worrying about the UP, as can all the quantum numbers for the electron orbits and orientations and magnetic numbers and all that other insanity that one has to know to properly describe an electrons state. It would be my guess that these are the things that would hold your molecular memory, as anything subject to the UP has an increadibly short duration before the delta function that descibes the particular state it was in decays into useless and outdated information. No truth or knowledge that man is subject to can reside here I would think. This is the realm only for probabilities and perhaps god if you care to invoke that specter.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:*claps hands and applauds vanize*

Physics is one of the few things that can still get me worked up when people start posting links to stuff about "overunity machines" and so on


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:okay here's where we're getting to "terms" beyond my vague made up ones. yaaay vanize! your saying exactly what i was saying way long ago, there is no particle, only it's wave pattern, what i called Frequency, a music term. what i am talking about here is organizing those wave patterns into larger groups, and examining the groups. the waveforms are related in many many ways. you have a wave pattern, an electromagnetic signature all your own. so translate that above post to read frequency instead of particle.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:go back to here and tell me what you think NOW
babble


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:and this; more babble

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:had to stay away from quarks and stuff, tried to keep it simple when possible (porotns, neutrons, electrons). same stuff, though, especially since quarks, etc. seem to me to be operationg in different rules, different "dimensional" space, how they occupy more than one position and stuff. don't know enough about them to tie them in to personal philosophy, either.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:Hmmm... Ok, so that standing wave that is an electron or a quark or whatever is actually a combination of many many frequencies layered on top of each other. Any descrete wave packet such as an electron or a quark or a photon or what have you is a supposition of waves. now taking that up a level to the proton, you could argue that a proton is a suposition of quarks, which in itself is a suposition of waves of varying frequencies. so a proton is mearly a supposition of a suposition of waves in effect. protons and the very similar neutrons clump together to make atoms (or else just sit around by themselves being hydrogen nuclei). So now we have a suppososition of protons making an atom, a supposition of which makes molucules. You are built of a vast number of molucules, so really you are nothing more than a suppostion of a supposition of a supposition of a supposition of a supposition of a bunch of different waves that happen to have frequency combinations such that they happen to be more or less stable in what we percieve as space/time.(you get that? - anyone besides Arashi listening at this point?)

Though sound and electromagnetic and probability waves are all different phenomenon, there are basic rules of physics that apply to all of them. If I hear what you are saying correctly, then I have to agree that we are certainly each of us anologous to a fantastic composition of notes - or perhaps we are each a single grand chord composed of gazillions of notes each. Many of these notes in each chord are repeated over and over again of course, such that the overall effect if translated into music would be like a vast chorus.

Have I gotten metaphysical yet? It's always so hard to tell.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Nah I don't think you've gone metaphysical at all... especially when you consider that waves exert pressure and so actually produce sound... albeit a vanishingly minute one for things like light waves or gravity waves

And let's not forget superstring/M theory in which everything is composed of modes of vibration of strings in terms of fundamental frequencies... even closer to music

I'm still not sure where the idea of lake spirits came into all this though.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
if you knew the position of every particle, wouldn't you know the future and the past? so, does a particle know it's position, or what? is it not where it is as a result of it's past interactions? this is the crux of the uncertainty principle dude.

the point is, if you knew the exact positions of all particles, you will have a very large uncertainty about their momentum (a fancy word for describing which direction they're going in, how fast and what their mass is).
this has the effect of you not being able to predeict with any decent accuracy where they will be later - you know where they're starting from but you don't know which way they're goin or how fast they're moving.

it is where it is because of its past interactions but the up underlies all of these interactions.
if two particles collide (or two wave functions interact/interfere, if you prefer to think of it like that - something i'll come back to ) then the fact that there was a position-momentum uncertainty before the collision means it must be there afterwards - you can't just get more accurate information spontaneously.

like all matter in the universe, we as humans are also constantly uncertain. all these theories are just that - ideas to explain how the universe works. they aren't, and don't claim to be laws (there hasn't been a scientific 'law' proposed for over 100 years - they are and always were just theories).
science getting 'tipped on its head' is due to new ways of thinking about the universe to explain stuff that we can't already.

the bottom line for me is this:
newtonian gravity still works fine if you're just spinning poi.
you don't need gr, qm or anything to do with nuclear physics to learn or invent moves you do with balls on a string.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Wow... I missed so much discussion... I have done a lot of research on shamanism specifically shamanism and the rave culture.. but there's also a lot of other things I would like to bring up, Schopenhauer and music, quantum mechanics and probabilistic theory, MIT's extradimensional theories... ahh..
if anyone's interested shoot me a private email at raver4202000@yahoo.com


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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.Morph.
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK

Total posts: 669
Posted:Super string bungee's??

Top thread



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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:also interesting, in the "dictionary" link, is the guy's long windy "room temp superconductor" explanation of how electrical energy is carried in feilds inside a vacuum, and how he tries to explain how false suppositions can still lead to working theories, but advacemants in theory lead to advancements in science, a wonderful unfolding evolution. he is describing electromagnetic energy in vaccums as traveling like sound waves. but that's an aside, not my main thrust here. i'm trying to get somewhere else.
and we'll get to the lake spirits, first let's talk about these "frequencies" or wave patterns in other dimensions. they occupy the same space, but they are different, they have more than three dimensions. what else can be said about the energy frequencies trhemselves? they have different manifest characteristics, right?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:(now i'm liking these socratic method questions, lots less typing! )

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:p.s. rev, why not just talk here?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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