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Forums > Expressive movement / costumes and props > Dance vs Movement (aka "What is dance?")
Login/Join to ParticipateDurbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001
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Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Total posts: 5688
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001
Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Following on from Meg's dance vs tech vs movement thread, this arose as a seperate issue which to save her thread being dragged off topic, I thought I'd create a spin-off discussion
So, at what stage does movement become dance?
Examples :-
Ballet is often out of time with the accompanying music, yet it depticts and describes stories and emotions and is definitely dance
Breakdancing (the power move variety) usually only has the music as a background and is often just a display of physical ability - yet it is still dance.
Conversely, take the hip wiggle (only as this was the point that came up in the original thread) on it's own without music... is it dance, or is it just movement?
Dictionary says:
verb (used without object) 1. to move one's feet or body, or both, rhythmically in a pattern of steps, esp. to the accompaniment of music.
noun 7. a successive group of rhythmical steps or bodily motions, or both, usually executed to music.
- To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.
So the dictionary suggests that if it's in anyway rhythmical - it's dance. Yet, liquid/waving is fairly irrhythmical being often just constant flow.
Hmmmmm
So, at what stage does movement become dance?
Examples :-
Ballet is often out of time with the accompanying music, yet it depticts and describes stories and emotions and is definitely dance
Breakdancing (the power move variety) usually only has the music as a background and is often just a display of physical ability - yet it is still dance.
Conversely, take the hip wiggle (only as this was the point that came up in the original thread) on it's own without music... is it dance, or is it just movement?
Dictionary says:
verb (used without object) 1. to move one's feet or body, or both, rhythmically in a pattern of steps, esp. to the accompaniment of music.
noun 7. a successive group of rhythmical steps or bodily motions, or both, usually executed to music.
- To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.
So the dictionary suggests that if it's in anyway rhythmical - it's dance. Yet, liquid/waving is fairly irrhythmical being often just constant flow.
Hmmmmm
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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
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PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
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Posted:Dance or Movement?
Written by: _Clare_
Yes.
Written by: _Clare_
Yes.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Posted: Written by: Neon_Shaolin
Is it wrong that I'm imagining a belly dancer dancing whilst isolating two piglets suckling on her?
Dunno. with-spin or anti-spin?
Is it wrong that I'm imagining a belly dancer dancing whilst isolating two piglets suckling on her?
Dunno. with-spin or anti-spin?
Delete
_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
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BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Hmmm... this discussion is missing something...
Ping?
EDITED_BY: Liquifies_Through_Contact (1165829964)
Ping?
EDITED_BY: Liquifies_Through_Contact (1165829964)
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005
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Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...
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Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...
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Posted:Pong good sir 
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
Delete
Posted:haha, what an interesting thread! Oli I'm right with you man, you've said everything I would about this really.
And as for John Cage, you might be interested to check out his partner,...oh he's been mentioned before in this thread?!... Merce Cunningham; he revolutionised people's conceptions of dance in the 1950s and 60s by creating dance pieces, which were performed alongside Cage's "music" but had absolutely nothing to do with them and had be created completely separately!
Hey, it's art
Also, there is a contemporary of Cunningham, who took ideas of performing letters of the alphabet to really interesting depths: Trisha Brown. She created a 3D cube around the body with 26 different points, and yes, you could spell out your name in dance... I created a piece recently inspired by her that included the word JAMROCK hehh he heheh
jam does rock.
mmmmmmmm jam
EDITED_BY: elasta (1194535011)
And as for John Cage, you might be interested to check out his partner,...oh he's been mentioned before in this thread?!... Merce Cunningham; he revolutionised people's conceptions of dance in the 1950s and 60s by creating dance pieces, which were performed alongside Cage's "music" but had absolutely nothing to do with them and had be created completely separately!
Hey, it's art
Also, there is a contemporary of Cunningham, who took ideas of performing letters of the alphabet to really interesting depths: Trisha Brown. She created a 3D cube around the body with 26 different points, and yes, you could spell out your name in dance... I created a piece recently inspired by her that included the word JAMROCK hehh he heheh
jam does rock.
mmmmmmmm jam
EDITED_BY: elasta (1194535011)
there's nothing quite as fulfilling as a tasty airwrap
if you're full of sh!t, at least you're fertile
"we are all flowers growing in God's garden... and that is why he spreads the sh!t around" - David Byrne
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Posted:So according to scientists, music obeys a power law regarding the 'frequency' of the freqencies in any piece of music.
White noise has a equal range of frequencies. So any frequency is as likely to be heard as any other.
However pink noise obeys a sort of power law where low frequencies occur a lottttttt and high frequencies only very little. The frequency of any given frequency is 1/f. (I think that's the general gist anyway, maths geeks, feel free to enlighten me in laymans terms. )
Also, real music obeys this law, (in terms of frequency and loudness.)
So lots of stuff obeys power laws. Like earthquakes, and size of cities... lots of small ones, only a few really big ones.
It's not entirely the 1/f law I'm interested in, but rather than most human music has this weird pattern in common.
So I'm wondering if it applies to dance too... Something like, lots of small movements, only a few large movements.
Sometimes systems that obey power laws do so because the elements have connections to each other, like musical notes. They have a heirarchy of pitch. Generally then elements that are closely connected will usually occur close to each other, and only infrequently will a distant connection occur... supposely obeying a 1/f law. (f there thou is the difference in pitch to the next note.)
So I'm wondering if that applies to dance too... most movements refer in thematic terms to the ones surrounding them, and only occassionally is there a big 'jump' to a different theme... or something like that, obejing a power law...
Beats me... it's getting a bit vague in my head now. I've probably gone batty (gone you say) or have overloaded my pattern recognition systems, Pi style.
I should really try and mention sacred geometry, fractals and self organised criticality in here as well, so I did.
OoooOOOOO o_O references! ^_^
http://mlab.uiah.fi/~eye/mediaculture/noise.html
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002682.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0412004
http://mlab.uiah.fi/~eye/mediaculture/noise.html
White noise has a equal range of frequencies. So any frequency is as likely to be heard as any other.
However pink noise obeys a sort of power law where low frequencies occur a lottttttt and high frequencies only very little. The frequency of any given frequency is 1/f. (I think that's the general gist anyway, maths geeks, feel free to enlighten me in laymans terms.
)Also, real music obeys this law, (in terms of frequency and loudness.)
So lots of stuff obeys power laws. Like earthquakes, and size of cities... lots of small ones, only a few really big ones.
It's not entirely the 1/f law I'm interested in, but rather than most human music has this weird pattern in common.
So I'm wondering if it applies to dance too... Something like, lots of small movements, only a few large movements.
Sometimes systems that obey power laws do so because the elements have connections to each other, like musical notes. They have a heirarchy of pitch. Generally then elements that are closely connected will usually occur close to each other, and only infrequently will a distant connection occur... supposely obeying a 1/f law. (f there thou is the difference in pitch to the next note.)
So I'm wondering if that applies to dance too... most movements refer in thematic terms to the ones surrounding them, and only occassionally is there a big 'jump' to a different theme... or something like that, obejing a power law...
Beats me... it's getting a bit vague in my head now. I've probably gone batty (gone you say) or have overloaded my pattern recognition systems, Pi style.
I should really try and mention sacred geometry, fractals and self organised criticality in here as well, so I did.
OoooOOOOO o_O references! ^_^
http://mlab.uiah.fi/~eye/mediaculture/noise.html
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002682.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0412004
http://mlab.uiah.fi/~eye/mediaculture/noise.html
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Posted:*cough* Laban *cough*
*cough* platonic solids *cough*
Meg, the lots of small movements, few big movements I would say is correct.
Watch a juggling act, dance piece, anything. if it's full of lots of small, similar movements, you get bored.
if it's full of loads of big trick following big trick following big trick, you get overwhelmed, and then get bored.
the small tricks between the big tricks give the audience a chance to take in what they just saw, and acknowledge the fact that they are impressed a lot easier. This also means that at the end, they are more likely to go away from watching it with an image stuck in their head of really good bits, and then discuss it, and inflate your ego.
Fill it with really good bits, and people can't decide which is the best, so their being impressed doesn't last as long, and you need to make a new act because people will say (Quite often) that they've seen it before, and they don't really want to watch again.
Makes sense in my head, anyhow.
Did I just go off topic?
*cough* platonic solids *cough*
Meg, the lots of small movements, few big movements I would say is correct.
Watch a juggling act, dance piece, anything. if it's full of lots of small, similar movements, you get bored.
if it's full of loads of big trick following big trick following big trick, you get overwhelmed, and then get bored.
the small tricks between the big tricks give the audience a chance to take in what they just saw, and acknowledge the fact that they are impressed a lot easier. This also means that at the end, they are more likely to go away from watching it with an image stuck in their head of really good bits, and then discuss it, and inflate your ego.
Fill it with really good bits, and people can't decide which is the best, so their being impressed doesn't last as long, and you need to make a new act because people will say (Quite often) that they've seen it before, and they don't really want to watch again.
Makes sense in my head, anyhow.
Did I just go off topic?
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Posted:I don't understand the connection platonic solids has...
Thanks for rehashing my post thou. Was that stuff not obvious to everyone already?
Thanks for rehashing my post thou. Was that stuff not obvious to everyone already?
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Posted:Platonic Solids...
Like was mentioned earlier about a cube, and there being various points to move to, etc.
Laban did this with all five Platonic solids.
Take an icosahedron, and picture planes X,Y, and Z. moving along these lines makes the movement more aesthetically pleasing.
This picture may help you see what I mean:
Non-Https Image Link
taken from http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMAT6680/Parveen/platonic_solids.htm
Like was mentioned earlier about a cube, and there being various points to move to, etc.
Laban did this with all five Platonic solids.
Take an icosahedron, and picture planes X,Y, and Z. moving along these lines makes the movement more aesthetically pleasing.
This picture may help you see what I mean:
Non-Https Image Link
taken from http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMAT6680/Parveen/platonic_solids.htm
Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Flying Water Muppet
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PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
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Posted:Yeah, I didn't realise that there were only five possibly 3d shapes that you could make out of those three basic shapes. That's pretty weird in my head. But it doesn't say if there are any more solids made from polygons?
That's a digression however.
yeah I think it's useful to be able to understand the space around you according to a system, but I don't know if it really matters what platonic solid that system is based on. Obviously you could do some abstract dance piece using that concept. But I think the more important thing it that you just realise the possibility for movement in the space around you, and that you have a basic system to help you explore that space.
Which is still a digression.
That's a digression however.
yeah I think it's useful to be able to understand the space around you according to a system, but I don't know if it really matters what platonic solid that system is based on. Obviously you could do some abstract dance piece using that concept. But I think the more important thing it that you just realise the possibility for movement in the space around you, and that you have a basic system to help you explore that space.
Which is still a digression.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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BRONZE Member since Jan 2001
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
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Posted: Written by: mcp
... I think the more important thing it that you just realise the possibility for movement in the space around you, and that you have a basic system to help you explore that space.
yeah fair observation. Having hung out a little with Meenik and done a workshop with Yuta I think its fairly safe to say that most good poi spinners use a system of movement...
I used to make an effort to undertand my spinning through a 2D six point polygon, but I got a bit bored of 'walking the line'.
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
... I think the more important thing it that you just realise the possibility for movement in the space around you, and that you have a basic system to help you explore that space.
yeah fair observation. Having hung out a little with Meenik and done a workshop with Yuta I think its fairly safe to say that most good poi spinners use a system of movement...
I used to make an effort to undertand my spinning through a 2D six point polygon, but I got a bit bored of 'walking the line'.
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001
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Classically British
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Posted: Written by: Pyrolific
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
Ketamine and blind luck
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
Ketamine and blind luck
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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BRONZE Member since Jan 2001
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
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Posted: Written by: Durbs
Written by: Pyrolific
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
Ketamine and blind luck
:notes lack of smilies:
Written by: Pyrolific
I wonder what systems contact staffers use?
Ketamine and blind luck
:notes lack of smilies:
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001
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Classically British
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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Posted:Contact staff is based on the body. (Check that out for some pun tastic action!)
So all my understandings are based on paths the staff takes over my body. Like little vector lines running around on my arms and torso and sometimes my head and legs. That's just one aspect thou.
Also I find class A hallocinogens help, for getting into that 'donnie darko' frame of mind.
Ketamine is for Horses, Silly!
So all my understandings are based on paths the staff takes over my body. Like little vector lines running around on my arms and torso and sometimes my head and legs. That's just one aspect thou.
Also I find class A hallocinogens help, for getting into that 'donnie darko' frame of mind.
Ketamine is for Horses, Silly!
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001
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Hippymcp
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Posted:Poi Spinner
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
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Still wiggling
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BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
Still wiggling
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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Posted:Irish.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
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Still wiggling
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Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
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Posted:
Lol... there's a wee girl you know wouldn't take kindly to that
Lol... there's a wee girl you know wouldn't take kindly to that
Getting to the other side 
Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001
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Posted:Oh, just as this was getting deep, it all falls down to name calling.
Well, back on track, there two main areas of thought already raised that fit well with my conceptions.
If either (or both) an onlooker, or the dancer, feel it is a dance then it is. Note I did not say "call it a dance" but actualyl feel it is a dance.
Many people, Michael Mosion (spelling) call what they do dance, but you can tell by watching that he sees it as a transition of tricks, and finds dance an easy term to gain better understanding.
Or, if that's not what he thinks, at least it gives a good example of what I'm trying to say, whether it's accurate or not doesn't matter.
And then, combine that with that wonderful word, INTENTION.
I believe a lot of dance is unintentional. One hears some music, or just darn happy, RE Watch the Singing in The Rain part of Singing in Rain, to get a feel for what unintentional dance can be.
Simply being happy and consciously or unconsciously expressing that happiness in movement will always qualify as dance, as will a professional dancer or artist who is deliberately consciously involving themselves in an activity they feel is dance.
Juggling, is typically movement for the purpose of achieving an object manipulation pattern, and to me does not often incorpoate dance.
Free style, trick generating, happy juggling, can well be descirbed as dance as long as it is spurred by happiness, rather than the succession of trick achievements. Again, i refer to Michael Moishen (Spelling?) as one who does not appear to dance despite being talented and almost too arty in his routines.
On the subject of breakdancing, while it is called dance, I feel it doesn't often actual achieve dance status, it more along the lines of a technical body manipulator. A succession of tricks, sometimes set to music.
A breakdancing routine that responds or keeps in time to the music, not just occassional poses when the music changes beat, is defitnely dance, but most breakdancing I have seen does not fit into that definition.
There we have it, perhaps my most detailed post in years!
Well, back on track, there two main areas of thought already raised that fit well with my conceptions.
If either (or both) an onlooker, or the dancer, feel it is a dance then it is. Note I did not say "call it a dance" but actualyl feel it is a dance.
Many people, Michael Mosion (spelling) call what they do dance, but you can tell by watching that he sees it as a transition of tricks, and finds dance an easy term to gain better understanding.
Or, if that's not what he thinks, at least it gives a good example of what I'm trying to say, whether it's accurate or not doesn't matter.
And then, combine that with that wonderful word, INTENTION.
I believe a lot of dance is unintentional. One hears some music, or just darn happy, RE Watch the Singing in The Rain part of Singing in Rain, to get a feel for what unintentional dance can be.
Simply being happy and consciously or unconsciously expressing that happiness in movement will always qualify as dance, as will a professional dancer or artist who is deliberately consciously involving themselves in an activity they feel is dance.
Juggling, is typically movement for the purpose of achieving an object manipulation pattern, and to me does not often incorpoate dance.
Free style, trick generating, happy juggling, can well be descirbed as dance as long as it is spurred by happiness, rather than the succession of trick achievements. Again, i refer to Michael Moishen (Spelling?) as one who does not appear to dance despite being talented and almost too arty in his routines.
On the subject of breakdancing, while it is called dance, I feel it doesn't often actual achieve dance status, it more along the lines of a technical body manipulator. A succession of tricks, sometimes set to music.
A breakdancing routine that responds or keeps in time to the music, not just occassional poses when the music changes beat, is defitnely dance, but most breakdancing I have seen does not fit into that definition.
There we have it, perhaps my most detailed post in years!
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