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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Following on from Meg's dance vs tech vs movement thread, this arose as a seperate issue which to save her thread being dragged off topic, I thought I'd create a spin-off discussion

So, at what stage does movement become dance?

Examples :-
Ballet is often out of time with the accompanying music, yet it depticts and describes stories and emotions and is definitely dance

Breakdancing (the power move variety) usually only has the music as a background and is often just a display of physical ability - yet it is still dance.

Conversely, take the hip wiggle (only as this was the point that came up in the original thread) on it's own without music... is it dance, or is it just movement?

Dictionary says:
verb (used without object) 1. to move one's feet or body, or both, rhythmically in a pattern of steps, esp. to the accompaniment of music.
noun 7. a successive group of rhythmical steps or bodily motions, or both, usually executed to music.

- To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.

So the dictionary suggests that if it's in anyway rhythmical - it's dance. Yet, liquid/waving is fairly irrhythmical being often just constant flow.

Hmmmmm


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted: Written by: simian



So... you're taking a technically undefined term, when you all nonetheless "know" what it means, and attempting to find some form of explanation that fits your preconceptions.







Yep. rolleyes





Am back now, and have been thinking...



Do we really need this debate in our lives?



Why not just do whatever it is you do, with feeling, and call it whatever you want?



Most of us probably won't even remember these attempts at definition by next week anyway.



And Meg, you move beautifully anyways... when you want to.

I saw you dance with firehands/staff in the Sphercular Vision DVD (I think it was that one - at Bristol?) and it remains the most lovely staff piece I've seen.



Be happy with what you do.



(It's good in theory... I just haven't got there yet...

Maybe that's what we should be talking about... how to be happy with what you do)


Getting to the other side smile

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:To me the "point" of defining things is not necessarily to arrive at a conclusion or a some kind of a universal definition--but rather to see what thoughts and experiences arise through the attempt, and exploring what the commonalities are. Looking at different ways of considering what one is doing when they move, where the impulse comes from, what purpose, if any, it serves...

Dance is one of the oldest arts, and is found within every culture, one form or another. Thinking about why this is so, and how the definitions and interpretations have changed over time is certainly interesting, er, at least to me. You don't have to be attached to the outcome of the process.

Meg- as far as expressing something being integral to dance- there is an interesting influential choreographer that used to make his choreography by attaching certain moves to a number on the dice, and rolling it all out randomly. And the music too- if there was any it was often added later, and was the eclectic Jazz of John Cage... The way it all fit together, and what it ultimately expressed, or not, was left to chance.

God, I will end up writing an essay if I even begin trying to explain why his explorations of dance are significant. Maybe just check out his stuff if you are interested. The gist, or one of them, is to explore whether content is generated by the movements themselves, or if one has to select movements to express a particular content, or if the audience actually brings and applies their own content regardless of whatever you do... Or is it the music that creates the content? The dancer? Some magical fusion of all of the above? He did a whole series of dances randomly generated by chance.

When Rob/bluecat had us do an exercise in transitions- attaching poi moves to the alphabet, and dancing out our names...somewhere, merce was smiling.

I actualy think many of the generated this way are crap- at least as finished "performances". Like Robs exercise, the process was useful and engaging. But I prefer dance with intentional thematic content or that which arises as a form of spontaneous emotional expression...

Complicated explanation, and probably dull. Sorry . I just thought I'd drop by cause I heard you missed me. Did you like the belly dancer in Drews thread? Now she, is interesting :0

wink

thinking and expressing thought can really enrich ones actions... grouphug

oh yeah loved the cheesy dance quote clip, made me happy!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:What is Dance? Dance is life!

Some Quotes:

It takes an athlete to dance, but an artist to be a dancer. - Shanna LaFleur

How can we know the dancer from the dance? ~William Butler Yeats

Dance is the hidden language of the soul, of the body- Martha Graham (1894-1994) US dancer, choreographer.

Dance isn't something that can be explained in words; it has to be danced. - Paige Arden

Everything in the universe has rhythm. Everything dances. - Maya Angelou

Dance is a measured pace, as a verse is a measured speech. - Sir Francis Bacon

Dance is music made visible. - George Balanchine

Dance first. Think later. It's the natural order. --Samuel Beckett

When you take dancing lessons, you learn steps and you learn steps and you learn steps. It can go on for a long time. And then one day, you just learn to dance, and it is so different. - Bill Austin

We should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh. - Friedrich Nietzsche

To dance is to share - to share is to teach - Selayma

"I can only believe in a God who dances"-Nietzsche

Never trust spiritual leader who cannot dance. ~ Mr. Miyagi, The Next Karate Kid, 1994

We're fools whether we dance or not, so we might as well dance. ~ Japanese Proverb




Mr Stone wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:lol - top quotes stone smile

Its important to explore these issues, if you care about them.

like - if you want your twirling to express what you want it to, then you might want to work out what you want to express. but if you dont care what you are expressing (and indeed, may prefer not to think of it that way) then dont entertain such thoughts.

I like how good twirlers express movements that to me represent the movements and relationships found in nature. Usually smooth curves with continuous rates of acceleration and deceleration. I mean I'm just not a fan of things that are out-of-tune, be that music, engines, eco-systems, social structures, economic structures....am I on topic...?

Is dance about balance? is it about making relationships between concepts? Does it have to tell a story? Cant a dancer be a canvas upon which the audience paints their own story - a bit like really abstract art?

Balance, symmetry and attention to the natural order of things. And thats why most contact twirling looks crap...unbalance, un-symmetrical, and definitely unnatural :P


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Well, I can take exception to the bellydance not telling stories. At it's roots, in folkloric tradition, it absolutely does. Only contemporary incarnations have taken that away from it.



Moving on.

As a dancer and choreographer, I do feel there is a distinctive difference.

Movement is a very broad term. You can move a million ways. Generally, we move for a purpose. To get comfy, to get from point a to point b. Etc. If a person is running, jogging, walking, sauntering, shuffling, kicking....I don't mistake it for dance.



Dance is a form of movement. Even arhythmic dance fits the music. The crescendos in the Nutcracker Suite are matched by the movements. So whether it hits the beat or the number of steps fits the bar, it a lyrical movement to music.

Dance in its nature is musical. Even pops, locks and other hard edge dance movements tend to be fluid in their nature. They flow in a musical fashion so that even if there is no music, I can watch them and actually hear what the music is supposed to be.



If it doesn't have that quality, then it isn't dance to me. And (from where this is coming from) I've seen a tonne of poi spinners who claim to dance with them and, in my own world, I disagree.



For me it is as if someone were to say "I do object manipulation." vs. "I spin poi." Poi is a more finite definition of what you do.

Dance is a more finite definition of how you move.



But that is just my opinion on the matter (as well as a couple of my teachers but hey, who're they anyway?)

EDITED_BY: Pele (1165078140)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Oli...

For dance and everyday movement (in true high modernist avant garde interjection of everyday life into art/interjection of art into everday life tradition) the person to reference is Yvonne Rainer (yes - she later became a film director!).


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: _Clare_


Do we really need this debate in our lives?

Why not just do whatever it is you do, with feeling, and call it whatever you want?




Because I have 8 hours to fill at work and they've blocked porn... wink


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:smile

hug

I should remember to stay away from this board when I'm having crazy days.



I'll just sit and watch instead...


Getting to the other side smile

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:bansheecat:

I once saw a piece by Wayne Macgregor, (from the company random house dance or random dance) I don't remember the dancer. redface but he talked about the piece afterwards and it was based on number, certain movements were tided to numbers and the dancer went through sequences of them, and then backwards through them and then various permutations and weird ways around them. It was cool. Not as good as the second piece by the dancer (possible a different choreographer, I remember not) set to bob dylans hurricane and trying to express the story of the boxer in it. I keenly remember the movements from the second, but the concept from the first... funny.

merce? is that the name of the choreographer, you don't say in your post... rolleyes

Yup, bluecats exersizes are the bomb.

Belly dancer in drew thread is awesome! Gotta love poppin' in bellydance...

thanks for the post!

josh: thanks for the thoughts, really made me think. (apart from the use of the word unnatural... pah!)


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: mcp


Belly dancer in drew thread is awesome! Gotta love poppin' in bellydance...





Is it Rachel Brice, who pretty much set that dance fusion into motion (along with Heather Stants from Unmata). If it wasn't, you should check her out. Not only does she do phenominal pop-n-lock bd but she is a fabulous person whom I just adore.

Some people attempt to dance like her. None succeed.
She's all over You Tube.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:yeah I have seen lots of her. She rocks and not just her costumes, her control of her body is amazing.... like eek amazing.

and no the bellydancer in drews thread isn't rachel brice, nor is she as good as her, but she's still very good and doing interesting things.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:redface

i stole those excercises from a juggler in London. It seemed so right for all the people who ask 'how do i transition from one move to another' without telling them what to do biggrin

merce cunningham is the person you seek, meg.http://www.merce.org/


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Completely off topic, but the 4th (and 7th) highest rating video on YouTube "of all time" is Belly Dancing...

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:you miss the point.

both juggling and dancing are actions.

it is thier intention

not thier appearance

that define them.

T meditate


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:first
while many bellydance, traditionally bellydancing was supposed to tell a story, not just be ummmm jiggling...
it should tell a story, like hula dancing
(ot: why does hula hoop have hula in it, is it reference to the hip movement?)
second
i think pele had a good point, movement is a general term, and dance is a specific type of movement, perhaps you could say that has flow or rhythm of sorts to it


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:can you have dance without movment?

can you have movement without dance?

can you have dance without music?

can you have music without movement?

T meditate ubblol


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:no, yes, yes, no
tongue


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: [Nx?

]
can you have dance without movment?

can you have movement without dance?

can you have dance without music?

can you have music without movement?

T meditate ubblol



In my opinion...

no
yes
no, because, as I said before, if a person is dancing in silence in my mind I can hear the music they move to.

I have a great example of this. I watched a modern lyrical dancer once. She chose to perform to no music and combined the movements with african dance and put together this strong, graceful, breathtaking routine. Though there was silence on the stage, she moved so precisely that we could "hear" the ebb and flow of music in our heads that she could have been dancing to. Her dance was that musical.
I don't get that with people plodding down the street, etc.


Physical movement or musical movement? Actually, yes, either way and I have heard "music" that moves nowhere and anyone can sit through a song.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted: Written by: Pele


...we could "hear" the ebb and flow of music in our heads that she could have been dancing to. Her dance was that musical.
I don't get that with people plodding down the street, etc.


Physical movement or musical movement? Actually, yes, either way and I have heard "music" that moves nowhere and anyone can sit through a song.



I hear what you are saying about the communicated intension creating the music and the dance without sound, but how about the old raver cliche of hearing an unbalanced wash load on spin cycle rinsing out wicked breakbeats, or the clickety-clack of the train tracks...to me these are music - but they dont have any intention - its *my* perception that makes them into music.

In that case, music and dance are what I perceive them to be (and they can be anything rhythmic). Oh dear I've talked myself loose of a meaningful structure by which to discuss music and dance... oh well smile hmm is rhythm dance? is rhythm music? can you have a-rhythmic music or a-rhythmic dance?

If an a-rhythmic movement or series of sounds can still be music or dance - what is it that makes it so?


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:josh, intresting point.

so if one person believes they are dancing, but you dont see them dancing, but someone else knows that they are dancing, who is right?

is he fist person dancing only when 'you' percive it to be? or when they believe they are?

i offer no answer, this is jsut a question.

T wave


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-><- Kallisti

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:All of them.

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:thats very quamtun

and from the point of view of an omniciant observer? because its our position in this case.

T wave


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-><- Kallisti

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:all of them, again.

but only in our position.


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:'What is that?'



'Its art dude'



'Are you kidding?'



'No way man, look at it from this side.'



'Ahhhhhhh, now I get it'


Love is the law.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:everything is dance, and nothing is dance... meditate

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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:now thats going a it far...

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted: Written by: [Nx?

]
thats very quamtun

and from the point of view of an omniciant observer?



Technically, if it was quantum, then the process of observing them effects the outcome. Before being observed they're involved in an infinite range of activites from dancing, to stroking suckling piglets.

Strange, but possibly true


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yes, tat is what i was refering too... wink

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted: Written by: Durbs


an infinite range of activites from dancing, to stroking suckling piglets.




Is it wrong that I'm imagining a belly dancer dancing whilst isolating two piglets suckling on her?


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Yes.

Getting to the other side smile

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