• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I didn't get it.

Now I get it.

This guy wants to bring back the draft.

Extend the age to 39. Include men and women.

Then let's see how many unjust wars we start.

Then let's see how many people vote.

I get it.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete Topic

Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hummmmmmmm....

A Democrat proposing a reinstatement of the draft.

How do you spell p o l i t i c a l g r a n d s t a n d i n g

It's just another idea to get people worked up against the war, because ACTUALLY supporting a reinstatement would be political suicide, especially for a Democrat.


Delete

Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Ah - now I understand.



Ta smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Actually, it's ages 18-42 NYC, not 39, that he is proposing.

While I understand his rationale, I don't think it works. That is the largest cross section of the nations actual work force and would cause alot of disruption I think.

But I can see his logic of "perhaps the powers that be wouldn't be so happy to jump on the war train if they feared their children would be drafted." It's worked in the past where politicians who were in favor of wars changed their tunes when their kids were drafted.
*shrug*

Under current law, I can't be drafted because I am a single parent. Wonder if they'd want to change that and the multiple child laws.

Not that I think this will ever go through. Just pondering.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:they should bring back national service in the UK, and also people charged with lesser crimes like selling a bit of weed should be given the option prison or the forces for a year.

it would teach people a bit more respect and give them more understanding towards one another also




that or wire their nuts up to electrodes and fry their nuts so they cant reproduce biggrin


Delete

Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:The idea of the draft terrifies me....

My son turned 18 in July and had to register...

Just the thought that this young man, whom I can only still think of as my boy, could be taken away and forced to kill because his country says he has to...

Joe doesn't have a single violent bone in his body...I think that he would probably rather kill himself than someone else...

The only way that I believe that he would ever harm someone would be if they were trying to hurt someone he cared about... and I think that goes for just about anyone.

To state the obvious a bit more...WAR SUX!!!


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted:that is the biggest problem I have with the idea of any form of conscription too, bek...

because I am the same... I couldn;t bring myself to take another human being;s life under almost any circumstances, but I certainly wouldn;t do it, just because lil johnny howard (our current prime minister) says so (I started to go off on a tangent then, but it was OT, so I;ve brought it back on track)

I can understand the idea of national service of some kind for disciplinary reasons... or to engender respect... or to offer alternatives, as you say rave, to incarceration for minor crimes. but to force someone into a position where they may have to take someone else;s life is just wrong... 100% wrong...

NYC: I do understand the congressman in question;s basic premise and I also believe it would have an impact... but I also agree with others who state that it;s all hot air, as it will never happen


I can;t be drafted if it should ever happen in australia either... I have chronic asthma, so I am medically *unfit*


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Pogo, national service for disciplinary reasons is a terrible idea. The last thing you want is a military made of the dregs and troublemakers.

As for the idea, I'm kinda for it. And not just for boys but for EVERYONE. Just like Israel. Everyone gets to go through Basic Training (or whatever they call it now) with deferrals available for college IF and ONLY IF you will serve out your term as an officer (for four years instead of two) after that. And if you defer for medical/law school, then you get to serve for 7 or 8 in that capacity.

Conscientious objectors can get non-combat placement, but they still get Basic Training. And then they get placed in non-combat support roles, such as domestic disaster relief.

I'd even go so far as to say that anyone who has a chronic medical condition should still be conscripted, although maybe do away with the Basic Training and just have them do domestic service.

It's not a terrible idea. And it might stop these boondoggles that Dubya likes to send us on.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:Years ago, Joe would have been considered medically unfit...he's flat footed and has an exaggerated arch in his back.....but now, they'd put arches in his shoes and a brace on his back and slap a gun in his hand.

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted:doc... I don;t necessarily mean military... in fact, in the context of my post, I;m diametrically opposed to ANY kind of military conscription...

I mean national service to be *service to your nation*, not learning how to shoot people... sorry for misunderstanding... smile


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:doc, i find your comment about national service in non-combat roles.
its like a tv show i watched once as a kid and had a profound effect on me. there was a boy who was drafted but he refused to kill people, so they put him in the communications tower claiming "youre not shooting anyone here" to which the boy replied, "no, but im telling people where to shoot and where to kill" (or something like that) so he was still morally against it.

as i understand it, in romania, they have national service if you dont go to uni. i think i like that as even if you dont go to uiversity, you get some sort of training in you.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:South African friends of mine have been extremely traumatized by their required, involuntary military experiences . I know several who have left the country, after service, because they no longer wanted anything to do with it. Others, who have left to avoid military service...Some of the stories they tell- on the few occasions they will even discuss it- break my heart.

I think draft is a bad idea, for many of the same reasons people have already expressed.

At the very least, it would have to be set up so that before a country declares war, or that it will launch a military force- there would be a national referendum on the specific situation. If the war was approved by a *substantial* majority in that way, then perhaps I could see that the subsequent draft would be reasonable. If you had just voted for your country to go to war, it is not unreasonable to be expected to fight in it.

But I personally would probably draft dodge.There are a million other ways I would rather be of service to the world...

Buffy St Marie does a good song about a soldiers individual responsablity for war--- what if everyone refused to fight?

I do like the idea of a non militaristic national service though.Perhaps something where every citizen is required at some point in their life to put in time being of service for their country and community. There could be so much done, so much learned. In disaster relief , environmental maintenance/clean up, community building, so much possibility. Just the varied training, discipline and shared experience developed through working cooperatively in an organized fashion could be very useful. Being fit to respond effectively to an emergency would be well worth it. I bet it would go a long way to strengthening a healthy national unity/identity too...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted: Written by: BansheeCat


I do like the idea of a non militaristic national service though.Perhaps something where every citizen is required at some point in their life to put in time being of service for their country and community. There could be so much done, so much learned. In disaster relief , environmental maintenance/clean up, community building, so much possibility. Just the varied training, discipline and shared experience developed through working cooperatively in an organized fashion could be very useful. Being fit to respond effectively to an emergency would be well worth it. I bet it would go a long way to strengthening a healthy national unity/identity too...



...exactly, andrea... smile


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:That does happen in some countries as far as i know. they get the option to do military training or the above.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted:scandinavia, rougie... several (not sure which) of the scandinavian countries offer non-military national service as an alternative to compulsory military service to conscientious objectors...

--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The point of this draft proposal is that it stops whoever's in the White House from sending our boys and girls on personal boondoggles like Iraq.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I think south korea does has a national service...my TA said at first it scared him but that it helped him with confidence and self-image

how is the draft proposal stopping the kids getting sent over to iraq


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Parents would be less likely to vote for Hawkish politicians if they knew their kids might be drafted.

I don't think Bush would have invaded if there was a random draft as the backlash would have been much quicker and stronger.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:oh ok
maybe if there was so compulsory requirement of boot camp or rotc, kids would be more respectful and in better shape


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:or dead.

Either way, it makes my classroom management easier.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


I think south korea does has a national service...my TA said at first it scared him but that it helped him with confidence and self-image

how is the draft proposal stopping the kids getting sent over to iraq



Simple. Because when it's the congresspeoples' kids, and everyone else's kids, then you'd better darned well have a VERY good reason to be taking us to war or you will find yourself out of office in a real hurry.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:i said OK
i was asking a question, not saying it was not true


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Maybe it's better to leave National Service to a separate thread, and I think it's already cropped up before. So I'll stick to the draft and my reasons against it.

First, mythology: I think a lot of this is the assumption that 'only poor people join the army' and that they're in some way forced. However there is research to show the average recruit comes from an area slightly richer than the average. So a large part of the military is rooted in the middle class, a key group whose votes politicians fight hard for.

Second: These recruits have volunteered to join the army, they've made that choice and been accepted through the system. So surely these people are simply going to be better soldiers and more willing to obey orders than those forced to do so. So why drag in those who might not be so good when you're trying to maintain the world's most powerful fighting force.

Third: Morally: I think we can all be pretty certain that giving a random someone a gun and forcing them in the direction of somebody who wants to kill them does not come under any definition of the concept of individual freedom. In no world is it fair to draft people into military service and it's unnecessary when there are many people out there willing to join up volunteering to fight to uphold what they believe. We can ask a lot of people, we can even demand a fair amount, but unless there is a grave reason, the likes of which we're nowhere close to, can we demand people be put in the line of fire.

Forth: Realistically do you really think that there aren't going to be loopholes that'd stop a Congressman's son actually ever seeing combat if they didn't want them to?

Fifth: It's been tried before, most recently in the US for Vietnam, and people complained very loudly that they were been sent to fight a pointless war. The reaction probably won't be any different now.

Sixth: With the White House, cabinet, two houses, associated staffers, etc... there's probably only a couple of thousand, if that, of their children who'd be eligible for the draft, out of tens of millions. The chance of their numbers coming up is slim, but it seems when people use the 'Send their Sons' reason for the draft they're rather callously wanting to see a group of parents disproportionately seeing their children sent to fight and suffer. If we're going to take the high ground this is not an attitude we should be fostering. When someone uses this as a reason for the draft I don't think thinking that they'd actually be fine themselves or their friends being called up to fight in Iraq.

Our armies should be seen as an extension of the people of a country, not the extension of the President, Congress, Parliament, etc... and if you feel that they're not been respected as they should or equipped as they should then it's the responsibility of the people to let their leaders know and to push through a change. And if not enough people agree to push for that change then you've hit one of the issues of democracy, and I know it sucks when you're on the opposing end of the decision.


Or simply ask yourself if it's right that your government has the right to call a cessation of your normal daily life; transfer you to the closed environment of a military camp; hold you to strict military laws; and force you into dangerous battlefields at the pleasure of your leaders.


Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Dom



Fifth: It's been tried before, most recently in the US for Vietnam, and people complained very loudly that they were been sent to fight a pointless war. The reaction probably won't be any different now.




See, I disagree on this one. The US's entry into Vietnam was very different than it's entry into Iraq. I think that echoes of Vietnam is exactly what would have kept us out of this one had there been a draft.

I, of course, have reservations about sending kids to fight anywhere. I guess there's some logic to sending the ones that want to go. I just think the general public should be more involved in it's country going to war.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Pogo69
SILVER Member since Apr 2006

Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo, Australia

Total posts: 3764
Posted: Written by: NYC


I just think the general public should be more involved in it`s country going to war.



*nods* absolutely NO argument there, NYC...


--pogo (pat) [forever and always]

Delete

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted: Written by: NYC

I just think the general public should be more involved in it's country going to war.



I agree to, but I don't think the draft does that. I think the draft would make people more protectionist and less likely to want to use the military, which isn't always a good thing (and I'm a pacifist saying this!).

The way to get the public involved is to get them to have an opinion on issues without forcing that opinion, which is a tough thing to do.


Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Dom


 Written by: NYC

I just think the general public should be more involved in it's country going to war.



I agree to, but I don't think the draft does that. I think the draft would make people more protectionist and less likely to want to use the military, which isn't always a good thing (and I'm a pacifist saying this!).



Elaborate, please.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:You may have already realised, but there is a big link between this



 Written by: Dom



First, mythology: I think a lot of this is the assumption that 'only poor people join the army' and that they're in some way forced. However there is research to show the average recruit comes from an area slightly richer than the average. So a large part of the military is rooted in the middle class, a key group whose votes politicians fight hard for.







and this



 Written by:



Forth: Realistically do you really think that there aren't going to be loopholes that'd stop a Congressman's son actually ever seeing combat if they didn't want them to?







Maybe this is the case in the US but here in the UK, living an a naval area and having lived in a garrison town at the time I left school, I can't think of one middle class person who joined the military but plenty of working class people who did, whether through ambition or lack of other employment opportunities.



I understand what you mean about the draft making people less likely to want to use the military - "people" possibly referring more to politicians than citizens - but i would have thought enough of both were already were against using the military when a million people marched in London against it, yet it still happened.

I'd like to think the draft would make a further difference but there's no way I'd gamble the life of anyone I love to find out.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

polarity
SILVER Member since May 2005

polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet, United Ki...

Total posts: 1228
Posted: Written by: Dom


First, mythology: I think a lot of this is the assumption that 'only poor people join the army' and that they're in some way forced. However there is research to show the average recruit comes from an area slightly richer than the average. So a large part of the military is rooted in the middle class, a key group whose votes politicians fight hard for.




The modern army has a much higher requirement for service personel who fulfil roles in logistical and technical areas, which require a higher level of skill than the role of front line troop does.

The fact is that the poor are more likely to end up on the front lines, as they are more likely to be placed there, their level of education not being sufficient for immediate placement (after basic training) in other areas. Logistical and technical positions have similar requirements to the kind of jobs these people would be unlikely to get as civilians. To qualify for these positions they must make use of the college support given to them after a tour of duty.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

Delete

Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Spanner: People = public, not politicians. The problem with referring to a local situation is that as I'm from a middle class environment the 5 people I know who have been in the military are all middle or upper middle class. One of them left and resumed studies as is now a barrister. There's a tradition in the UK of the upper classes joining the military as it brings access to the 'old boys' clubs. And whilst they may be less likely to face a front line they are not spared shipment out to Iraq and Afghanistan.

A million people did march against the invasion of Iraq, I marched. But I don't think that we ignored completely, but in our democracies we elect those we wish to make our decisions for us and those leaders shouldn't be subject to the whims of the public. Our leaders invaded Iraq because they thought it was right, and this time they got it wrong. But I don't think the public should hold that much power of it's appointed leaders as to do so only means that the loudest voices rule and policy would be subject to follow the headlines of the press, not the aspirations of the politicians.

Polarity: A fair point, but I've heard the opinions of some 'support' staff on being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan, and regardless of whether they're on patrols through jihadi neighbourhoods or at a barracks desk they're still been sent to battle zone and worry for their safety, especially as the barracks are subject to daily attacks. So they may not be in the front line, but they're still in a battle zone and their families will still worry for them. Also, as happened recently, when pushed for numbers the support and logistical staff will be moved up the front and their jobs handed to the TA.

I'll elaborate on my a drafted army is a second rate army.

The military needs to do what it's told by its leaders without question. Annoying as that may be when military actions goes against your opinions, but without that fundamental obedience to the leadership an army is weakened. If a soldier is drafted surely their morale and obedience level is going to be far lower than a volunteer, regardless of the reason for volunteering.

By drafting in people who don't want to be in the army we will be creating an atmosphere where the public organise to keep themselves and their loved ones out of harm's way by holding an personal & emotional judgement over every possible action and hence restricting military usage. The military will become an instrument of public opinion, which may sound great but there's really strong reasons why it isn't. People are selfish and subject to 'mob mentality' without looking at the greater picture. Convincing the public to invade Iraq in revenge for 9/11 will be far easier than convincing them we need to spill blood in Africa to stop a genocide.

We need our military not just to act on the self interest of the people, and for a drafted military with strong public pressure this means it'd stay at home. A ship in a harbour is safe, but it's not what it's for. On a peace keeping mission our military needs to be obey an order to go to a country they have no clue about to defend people they've never heard of.

Why? Not because we want to, but because we should; because we have a sense of what's right, a sense of duty to the world; and we need to act to protect not just our friends and family at home but somebody's else's friends and families abroad. Today abroad is a lot closer to home than it used to be and we're all in this together now. People across the world who desire a free life and who aspire for the fundamental right of freedom can not just be met with with words of support, but with diplomatic, economical and material intervention.

We do not have an international humanitarian task force, there is no Mother Teresa with first strike capability, so we need the stronger nations of the world to be able to deploy their military in peace keeping missions across the globe, and a protectionist public will be inclined to selfishness and not easily support Western blood spilt on foreign shores. That is why our military needs to be built or the willing, not the coerced.


Delete