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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well I'm a happy boy. I'm happy because after 6 years of watching our country and world get completely trashed, people in the U.S. finally realized that it wasn't making them any safer, richer, or better.

More importantly, I was beginning to seriously wonder if the United States was still a constitutional republic of democratic states or whether the Republicans had committed so much voter fraud that they had silenced the People and made this into a dictatorship.

Last night's election proved to me that we still do have a voice and it renewed just a teensy amount of faith in my own country. And you have no idea how immensely happy that makes me. biggrin


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Sunbird



gotta say it, it doesn't matter who wins, they'll all make war for oil and screw the public over.





This is the argument that angers me more than anything: "it doesn't matter who wins."



Sorry, but have you been paying attention to the last six years!? Yes, folks it ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, MOST DEFINATELY DOES MATTER who wins.



First thing Nancy Pelosi said after the Democrats won the elections: We're getting out of Iraq.



Your attitude does not speak of social concern or education, it speaks of laziness and cynicism. I suggest you read a bit of the news before making these blanket statements.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Right on, Doc!



To paraphrase from An Inconvenient Truth, so many people go straight from denial to despair without pausing in between to consider what options actually are available.



Democracy is one of those options, guys! (okay, so is terrorism but if that's not repackaged despair then I'm an ape's auntie!)


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Amen Mike!

Even though I honestly can't see much difference coming from a democratic house and senate and a republican president. Wake me when the guy in charge is wearing blue.


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RayinRed
RayinRed

member
Location: Huntington, New York
Member Since: 3rd Apr 2006
Total posts: 39
Posted:All I can say is that I'm grateful. We (meaning the liberal, social minded people of America) got the House and the Senate, Rumsfeld resigned, and Nancy Pelosi is Speaker. The democrats haven't had congress since 94 so its about damn time!

I want to throw something out to all the New Yorkers: what are we going to do about Hevassi? He's corrupt, says he's corrupt on a comercial, and gets reelected.

Talk about irony.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, Red, the GOP alternative was incompetent. And in Comptroller, I'd rather a crocked competent than an idiot of uncertain intentions.



I voted for the Green candidate.



One more thing, Al Gore would NEVER have sent us into Iraq. No way on God's green earth.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Dunno Doc... a bloodless revolt? Let's see what will happen - hard to judge already.

Do you think the withdrawal from Iraq is the ultimate answer? I don't, but I'd suggest to give them a chance for some time. To withdraw, but to be ready to intervene, if civil war prevails. At this point I really am not convinced that the bloodshed in Iraq will end with the last GI taking that backalley to Saudi Arabia, but I stronlgy hope to be mistaken.

I really don't mind the US going INTO Iraq and to take responsibility for the figure they have helped into this position in the first place - this was one step to clean up their own (USA) mess...

The aim of a new govt should be to become a global TEAM player, not a dominator and stop messing around everywhere in their own interest, installing puppet regimes and funding terrorist cells, to reveal full information about (the past and current) involvement into terror and to finally come to terms with the truth. To end US global domination and arrogance and stick to the humanitarian rules they demand from everybody else themselves (in Guantanamo for example)

I am really curious about the forthcoming election. A black or female president.... wow - maybe after all we are ready for a change...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: FireTom



Do you think the withdrawal from Iraq is the ultimate answer?



Of course not. But it's better than what's happening now.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Mike's right. I'm seeing more and more issues that will be changed now that Dems are in the office. They're not all that apparent at first. But they are there.

Here's on article on Education.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:so milwaukee is one of the first areas to have school choice...it might have been the first
it was started before the doyle administration and since dem doyle has been in office he has done whatever he can to make it fail...so he can say that it isn't the answer
he can't actually take it away because then he is against minority education
funding has been drastically cut...i don't know what the voting record actually says but teachers are being laid off left and right
he has put a cap on spending so that more kids won't be able to join the choice program
he says he is for education but it sure doesn't look like it around here
so dems for education, hmmmm?


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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inactive
inactive

old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:Wasn't really the nicest way to speak to me Doc. Personally, I'm ion the UK, all our poiliticians are as bad as eachother, mainly cos they get told what to do by your politicians.

To you who has been accessing my online accounts, changing my login details, locations and posting censored about me, realise, you are not worth revenge, you are not worth my attention, you are nothing, and that is all you ever will be.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Sunbird


Wasn't really the nicest way to speak to me Doc.



to be fair sunbird, your comment was flippant and totally sidelined all the issues raised in the thread so far.

fair enough if you don't think there is any difference between the major parties in u.s. politics these days or if you think that democracy is ineffective in america or if you are of the opinion that foreign policy is the overiding issue here.

but saying stuff like "they'll all make war for oil and screw the public over" with no hint of how you reached that opinion and absolutely no qualification of what in the world 'screw the public over' means is not constructive in the slightest.

i think you are at best massively oversimplifying the issues and at worst saying things that patently aren't true:

"all our poiliticians are as bad as each other, mainly cos they get told what to do by your politicians."

saying stuff like that without any kind of context or evidence is ridiculous imho.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:clap

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: FireTom



Do you think the withdrawal from Iraq is the ultimate answer?



Of course not. But it's better than what's happening now.



Why?

Because no GI's are dying anymore? Because Iraquis are left behind with all the political vacuum? Or because it then becomes obvious that it is NOT the "US occupation" that causes all those attacks?

As I said before: I favour a (TEMPORARY) withdrawal - with the option to go right back in, when civil war doesn't stop.

IMO you simply can't mess with the internal affairs of a region for decades, destabilize it and then just leave them alone - because it became inconvenient and unpopular all of a sudden. Maybe the US learns (another) important lesson here - it's friggin painful to loose some of your own people. Stuff like that happens every day "on the other side"...

Maybe in the future the US focusses more to become a shining example by simply living up to the ideals they proclaim to the rest of the world? umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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inactive
inactive

old hand

Member Since: 4th May 2005
Total posts: 722
Posted:OK, obviously, I'm a nasty man, I'll leave this thread alone smile

To you who has been accessing my online accounts, changing my login details, locations and posting censored about me, realise, you are not worth revenge, you are not worth my attention, you are nothing, and that is all you ever will be.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:offtopic

 Written by: Sunbird


OK, obviously, I'm a nasty man, I'll leave this thread alone smile



i didn't say that sunbird.

please don't make the suggestion that i'm insulting you or insinuating that your comments in this thread reflect negatively on your character when i am quite firmly doing nothing of the sort.

if you want to actually discuss this topic or expand on your previous posts, we'd love to hear your input.

however, if all you want to do is drop unsubstantiated one-liners into a discussion thread and then complain when you're challenged for them, i would tend to agree with you that maybe it is best if you don't 'contribute' at all.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:not about the sunbird thing, but i agree about the occupation thing and the destabilizing a historical dispute
this fight in some form or another has been going on for a long time, and it was a mess
it is significantly possible that the US coming in made it worse
but us just leaving is not going to help, and people will see that maybe it isn't just the US that is creating the violence


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:IMO, the US pulling out of Iraq right now would lead to a worst case scenario. Even the Kurdish issue alone would be enough to spark a civil war, dragging Turkey and Syria into it.

I'd suggest forming a coalition made up of forces from Muslim countries to replace the current US occupation ( with the full backing of the UN of course ) and America simply pays for it, if I thought it would work.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: FireTom


 Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: FireTom



Do you think the withdrawal from Iraq is the ultimate answer?



Of course not. But it's better than what's happening now.



Why?

Because no GI's are dying anymore? Because Iraquis are left behind with all the political vacuum? Or because it then becomes obvious that it is NOT the "US occupation" that causes all those attacks?

As I said before: I favour a (TEMPORARY) withdrawal - with the option to go right back in, when civil war doesn't stop.




And then do what?

My solution is to split Iraq into Sunnistan, Kurdistan, and Shiastan. Try to split it up evenly with oil and other resources. Inform all Kurds and Sunnis in Shiastan (for example) that after such-and-such a date we will not be able to vouch for their safety, and then seal the borders between the three countries, with liberal aid to each.

Which will never hapen.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ickleMatt
ickleMatt

enthusiast
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
Member Since: 4th Apr 2006
Total posts: 242
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: FireTom


 Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: FireTom



Do you think the withdrawal from Iraq is the ultimate answer?



Of course not. But it's better than what's happening now.



Why?

Because no GI's are dying anymore? Because Iraquis are left behind with all the political vacuum? Or because it then becomes obvious that it is NOT the "US occupation" that causes all those attacks?

As I said before: I favour a (TEMPORARY) withdrawal - with the option to go right back in, when civil war doesn't stop.




And then do what?

My solution is to split Iraq into Sunnistan, Kurdistan, and Shiastan. Try to split it up evenly with oil and other resources. Inform all Kurds and Sunnis in Shiastan (for example) that after such-and-such a date we will not be able to vouch for their safety, and then seal the borders between the three countries, with liberal aid to each.

Which will never happen.



There is a precedent here for what you are suggesting: partition in India. And history tells a VERY ugly story there. A federal Iraq is perhaps a more nuanced approach.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


My solution is to split Iraq into Sunnistan, Kurdistan, and Shiastan. Try to split it up evenly with oil and other resources. Inform all Kurds and Sunnis in Shiastan (for example) that after such-and-such a date we will not be able to vouch for their safety, and then seal the borders between the three countries, with liberal aid to each.

Which will never hapen.



i for one am very, very happy that that would never happen - because it patently wouldn't work!

do you think the american civil war would have been solved by simply splitting the country in two and allowing the confederacy to exist as a separate nation?!

and if you think it really would work, google 'home rule northern ireland' and say it again.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Obviously the American Civil War would have been solved by splitting the country in two. That was exactly what the South wanted. I'm kinda sad they didn't get it.



wink


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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:^^

^^

Besides which, there aren't three clearly defined areas, the three ethnic populations are quite well shuffled around. Hence the sectarian violence that's going on now. If you split it up into three states along ethnic lines it'll be genocide before you can say "ethnic cleansing".



Besides besides, the Shias have, crudely speaking, most of the resources (read: oil) and the Sunnis have er... Baghdad? Not a lot anyway.



Besides besides besides, an independent Kurdish state, although it would be great for the Kurds (and in principle I'd be all for it), would create a lot of instability in Turkey and Syria, who've each got a lot of Kurds all of whom would want in on the Kurdistan action, and more instability in the Middle East is emphatically not what anyone needs right now guys!

EDITED_BY: 87wt2gxq7 (1163717948)


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: doc

And then do what?



Keep them off each other until they have reached a solution.

We can't simply come and join ethnic groups and then seperate them again as to our liking, please.

Best option would really be to have an all arab mandate and UN force compiled by arab nations... please do not forget that this is one of the holiest areas the muslim community...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: FireTom


 Written by: doc

And then do what?



Keep them off each other until they have reached a solution.




That's what we've BEEN doing. For six years.

Would you like another sixty? Six hundred? Six thousand, perhaps.

It's another Vietnam and bloodshed is inevitable and had we not stuck our grubby hands in it in the first place...

The true solution is to stop all dependence on Mid-East oil. Period. Mo' money, mo' problems. No money, no problems.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: FireTom


 Written by: doc

And then do what?



Keep them off each other until they have reached a solution.




That's what we've BEEN doing. For six years.




Sweet! Mission accomplished!

ubblol


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:6 years? umm split that in half and I second that...



Now, how long has the US destabilized the region in their own interest? umm



Doc - I just think it's just f*&%ed up to first sponsor a dictator and a war (Iraq - Iran) not giving a damn about a few million casualties (along with the Kurds getting genocided) then finally take over responsibility - in the worst possible way ("He tried to kill my dad!" + "where are the smoking guns?") and then withdraw as soon as the nose gets punched...



FINALLY GET IT IN YOUR HEAD: The planet is NOT YOUR PLAYGROUND - censored mad2 [edit] redface no really it actually IS - but don't become a self sorry sissy, if the other children are punching back, okay! [/edit]



 Written by: doc

It's another Vietnam and bloodshed is inevitable and had we not stuck our grubby hands in it in the first place...





Well, the american public was supporting "going in there" by approving GWB during the presidential election, no? Get over your bad self and clean up before you leave... your mom doesn't live there... wink



[edit] And how many GI's got killed up to now? And how many casualties occured in the (US sponsored) Iraq-Iran war??? Dunno why I dislike these double moral stadards (1 of ours is worth 1000 of the others...) rolleyes I strongly doubt that the US really has learned the lesson already... what was the outcome of this election?



According to Wiki the result is 53/42 percent - still no REAL anti war, anti Bush statement, is it now?



hug nothing personal, Doc smile [/edit]

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1163846713)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning

The true solution is to stop all dependence on Mid-East oil. Period. Mo' money, mo' problems. No money, no problems.





Sure, it wouldn't matter if different ethnic groups were killing each other if they didn't have all this impact on how much the US pays for its oil.



So we just get the US to switch to Phlogiston/Aether-turbine power stations, eradicate all its need for oil, and Iraq will just be full of poor people killing each other!



I should work for the UN smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted: Written by: simian



I should work for the UN smile





If bloody Geri Halliwell and Angelina Jolie can do it, there's no reason you couldn't do it... Unless you count common sense as a negative...


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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