Forums > Social Discussion > The Chimera Debate
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veteran
1,286 posts
Location: My House, United Kingdom
veteran
1,286 posts
Location: My House, United Kingdom
Posted:
After hearing about this i wondered how you all felt about this particular case. from what i understand 2 labs in england, one in London and one in (i think) Nottingham have applied for permission to experiment on using human DNA and cow cells to create tailormade stem cells that could be used to make organs that have an extremely low, if not zero, chance of rejection from the patient as it is their own DNA
"In the proposed stem cell research, although the animal egg has been emptied of its nuclei, tiny amounts of mitochondrial DNA would mix with the human nuclei and the resulting stems cells would be about 99.9% human and 0.1% animal"
Now the arguements against it come from 2 sources, the first, is that it blurs the line between Human and Animal, the second comes from the pro-life people saying as soon as the cow's egg is fertilised it is a life, and therefore murder to kill it.
Now, I for one can see no problem with these experiments, if i need a liver transplant, and they can give me one that is 99.9% me and 0.1% cow im not going to complain, if i am horrifically burnt and need a skin graft, im not going to say no if they offer to grow me new skin that is the same proportions (genetically). Morally i am in two minds, "When does life begin" vs "How many people could this save" but neither of those i can provide answers for.
Where do the rest of you stand?
(can i also mention tehehehe "Sheep + Goat = Geep")
After hearing about this i wondered how you all felt about this particular case. from what i understand 2 labs in england, one in London and one in (i think) Nottingham have applied for permission to experiment on using human DNA and cow cells to create tailormade stem cells that could be used to make organs that have an extremely low, if not zero, chance of rejection from the patient as it is their own DNA
"In the proposed stem cell research, although the animal egg has been emptied of its nuclei, tiny amounts of mitochondrial DNA would mix with the human nuclei and the resulting stems cells would be about 99.9% human and 0.1% animal"
Now the arguements against it come from 2 sources, the first, is that it blurs the line between Human and Animal, the second comes from the pro-life people saying as soon as the cow's egg is fertilised it is a life, and therefore murder to kill it.
Now, I for one can see no problem with these experiments, if i need a liver transplant, and they can give me one that is 99.9% me and 0.1% cow im not going to complain, if i am horrifically burnt and need a skin graft, im not going to say no if they offer to grow me new skin that is the same proportions (genetically). Morally i am in two minds, "When does life begin" vs "How many people could this save" but neither of those i can provide answers for.
Where do the rest of you stand?
(can i also mention tehehehe "Sheep + Goat = Geep")
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BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
do you have a source for this? I'd like to find out how the mitochondrial DNA would get into the nucleus, and if there naturally is an exchange of DNA between nucleus and mitochondria, too. I would've thought there wasn't since the mitochondrial DNA is (as far as I know... not a big fan of genetic though!) highly conserved.
I also would've thought it contains very little DNA, so that in order to get to 0.1% of total DNA in the nucleus, quite a big proportion of the mitochondrial DNA would've had to be transferred.
So in other words, are you sure it's 0.1 % bovine DNA in the nucleus, or is that in the cell?
On a side note (again as far as I know), the DNA in the mitochondria codes for proteins that are mitochondrial, too, so if there were bovine mitochondria in an otherwise human cell that wouldn't be much of a problem.
Given that there's been experimentation with whole animal organs before, animals are used to generate vaccines, and for example insulins were porcine before genetic engineering allowed human insulins to be produced by bacteria, I wouldn't see much of a problem. After all, the DNA wouldn't just wander round the body and get into sperm/eggs (ignoring the fact that MOST organs go to people past their reproductive phase anyway).
Morally I would choose the human over the animal.
do you have a source for this? I'd like to find out how the mitochondrial DNA would get into the nucleus, and if there naturally is an exchange of DNA between nucleus and mitochondria, too. I would've thought there wasn't since the mitochondrial DNA is (as far as I know... not a big fan of genetic though!) highly conserved.
I also would've thought it contains very little DNA, so that in order to get to 0.1% of total DNA in the nucleus, quite a big proportion of the mitochondrial DNA would've had to be transferred.
So in other words, are you sure it's 0.1 % bovine DNA in the nucleus, or is that in the cell?
On a side note (again as far as I know), the DNA in the mitochondria codes for proteins that are mitochondrial, too, so if there were bovine mitochondria in an otherwise human cell that wouldn't be much of a problem.
Given that there's been experimentation with whole animal organs before, animals are used to generate vaccines, and for example insulins were porcine before genetic engineering allowed human insulins to be produced by bacteria, I wouldn't see much of a problem. After all, the DNA wouldn't just wander round the body and get into sperm/eggs (ignoring the fact that MOST organs go to people past their reproductive phase anyway).
Morally I would choose the human over the animal.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
goat + leek = geek
goat + leek = geek
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Still wiggling
5,967 posts
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Posted:
Getting to the other side 
GOLD Member
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
1,584 posts
Location: Angels Landing, USA
Posted:
The Brits now have the ability to create Taurens!
>.>
*wonders if anyone gets geeky reference and goes back to playing video games
The Brits now have the ability to create Taurens!
>.>
*wonders if anyone gets geeky reference and goes back to playing video games
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
I don't think it could ever be used for creating organs, but for practical reasons relating to the compatability of cow eggs and human dna. I may very well be proved wrong of course.
I've no moral objections to anything related to human or chimeric tissue. The value of human life comes from sensation and experience (and other fluffy things), not from the chemicals and cells that make it up.
As for blurring the distinction between human and animal life, as a vegetarian, I say: good.
I don't think it could ever be used for creating organs, but for practical reasons relating to the compatability of cow eggs and human dna. I may very well be proved wrong of course.
I've no moral objections to anything related to human or chimeric tissue. The value of human life comes from sensation and experience (and other fluffy things), not from the chemicals and cells that make it up.
As for blurring the distinction between human and animal life, as a vegetarian, I say: good.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
SILVER Member
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
757 posts
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Posted:
There's a line?
Written by: VampyricAcid
the first, is that it blurs the line between Human and Animal
There's a line?
Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
I got it Kael! I hunt trolls. I am a.... (fill in the blank)
simian will get it too. He is one
I got it Kael! I hunt trolls. I am a.... (fill in the blank)
simian will get it too. He is one
BRONZE Member
member
56 posts
Location: Cape Town The Mother City, South Africa
member
56 posts
Location: Cape Town The Mother City, South Africa
Posted:
This scares me, maby because i read to many books.
There is this book called Chromosome 6 (dont know the author) Where the experimented like this with Bonobos(closer to humans than chimps are), in order to create donor organs for people. You could pay a certain amount of money, then this little monkey with your DNA would run around africa untill you need a transplant. Well long story short, at the end of the day they created a "caveman".
Yeah, I think I read to many books...
This scares me, maby because i read to many books.
There is this book called Chromosome 6 (dont know the author) Where the experimented like this with Bonobos(closer to humans than chimps are), in order to create donor organs for people. You could pay a certain amount of money, then this little monkey with your DNA would run around africa untill you need a transplant. Well long story short, at the end of the day they created a "caveman".
Yeah, I think I read to many books...
"My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely."
"Insanity is my only means of relaxation."
Pooh-Bah
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
Posted:
Birgit - mitochondria are in the cytoplasm, not the nucleus. I think it was just worded confusingly by the BBC.
Mitochondria are also evolved from what were once symbiotic bacteria so we're all freakish conglomerations of different beasties anyway
Birgit - mitochondria are in the cytoplasm, not the nucleus. I think it was just worded confusingly by the BBC.
Mitochondria are also evolved from what were once symbiotic bacteria so we're all freakish conglomerations of different beasties anyway
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
I know they're in the cytoplasm and the whole endosymbiotic stuff
That's why I was wondering how come the DNA could be mixed up!
I know they're in the cytoplasm and the whole endosymbiotic stuff
That's why I was wondering how come the DNA could be mixed up!
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
*Silently shakes his head to signify this statement is incorrect*
Pygmy chimps and regular chimps are equally close to humans. Then again they might make better organ hosts for different reasons.
Written by: Flamez
Bonobos(closer to humans than chimps are)
*Silently shakes his head to signify this statement is incorrect*
Pygmy chimps and regular chimps are equally close to humans. Then again they might make better organ hosts for different reasons.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
addict
434 posts
Location: UK
addict
434 posts
Location: UK
Posted:
The lines between animal and human were blurred as soon as we started to compare animal DNA and human DNA, people were shocked to say the least at the numbers of genes in "small insignificant" animals compared to man, e.g. nematode worms, drosophila, i forget the numbers, and actually there were a lot of different numbers flying around at the time but suffice to say humans do not have many more genes than animals considered much less evolved than ourselves.
Concerning the other points in the OP this probably refers to the total amount of DNA in the resulting cell. There may be some confusion over the word "mixing" and whether there actually would be an intermingling of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA I am unsure, it may be just an illustration of the fact that there would be an element of non human DNA in the cell be it in the nucleus or the mitochondria. Ethically I would have no issues with this as mitochondria, as Birgit already illuded to are highly conserved (though I have no idea how much sequence homology there is between "animal" and human mDNA.
Jeff, I agree that this is a long way off but it certainly looks like a key step on the way to "sucess". I believe only recently a small (about the size of your thumb) "liver" made from human stem cells was grown in vitro, of course with this approach you have the whole issue of growing the supporting tissue matrix (blood vessels, collagen, bile duct) to go with it, i rather suspect that at this stage it was just a homogenous mass of hepatocytes (I didnt read the paper) rather than a functioning liver but it is progress none the less
hmm... just wrote an essay sorry 
Motley
The lines between animal and human were blurred as soon as we started to compare animal DNA and human DNA, people were shocked to say the least at the numbers of genes in "small insignificant" animals compared to man, e.g. nematode worms, drosophila, i forget the numbers, and actually there were a lot of different numbers flying around at the time but suffice to say humans do not have many more genes than animals considered much less evolved than ourselves.
Concerning the other points in the OP this probably refers to the total amount of DNA in the resulting cell. There may be some confusion over the word "mixing" and whether there actually would be an intermingling of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA I am unsure, it may be just an illustration of the fact that there would be an element of non human DNA in the cell be it in the nucleus or the mitochondria. Ethically I would have no issues with this as mitochondria, as Birgit already illuded to are highly conserved (though I have no idea how much sequence homology there is between "animal" and human mDNA.
Jeff, I agree that this is a long way off but it certainly looks like a key step on the way to "sucess". I believe only recently a small (about the size of your thumb) "liver" made from human stem cells was grown in vitro, of course with this approach you have the whole issue of growing the supporting tissue matrix (blood vessels, collagen, bile duct) to go with it, i rather suspect that at this stage it was just a homogenous mass of hepatocytes (I didnt read the paper) rather than a functioning liver but it is progress none the less
hmm... just wrote an essay
sorry Motley
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member
56 posts
Location: Cape Town The Mother City, South Africa
member
56 posts
Location: Cape Town The Mother City, South Africa
Posted:
Sorry, that's what they said in the book. Told ya, I read to many books
Written by: jeff(fake)Written by: Flamez
Bonobos(closer to humans than chimps are)
*Silently shakes his head to signify this statement is incorrect*
Pygmy chimps and regular chimps are equally close to humans. Then again they might make better organ hosts for different reasons.
Sorry, that's what they said in the book. Told ya, I read to many books
"My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely."
"Insanity is my only means of relaxation."
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