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Forums > HoP Competitions & Announcements - COL videos etc > Calendar competition
Login/Join to Participategeorgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
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Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Total posts: 2387
Posted:maybe not quite the right area for this but one of the mods will over-rule the stoopid admin guy if necessary!
I haven't seen any talk about the calendar competion we launched last week so maybe it has been missed? or there's no interest
Anyway, we figured it would appeal to all those spinners that for whatever reason can't put together a COL video so I hope we were right!
Are people planning those winning shots yet? or are you waiting for the details/upload page to appear?
PAW 1 http://www.homeofpoi.com/articles/photo_calendar.php
cheers
George
I haven't seen any talk about the calendar competion we launched last week so maybe it has been missed? or there's no interest
Anyway, we figured it would appeal to all those spinners that for whatever reason can't put together a COL video so I hope we were right!
Are people planning those winning shots yet? or are you waiting for the details/upload page to appear?
PAW 1 http://www.homeofpoi.com/articles/photo_calendar.php
cheers
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it. 
georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
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Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Total posts: 2387
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Total posts: 2387
Posted:Cole - release form for people - absolutely is on the list (as for the COL competition).
Kinny - if you've photoshopped it to make it funky, then no (sorry!). If you cropped it in photoshop and that's all, then possibly.
George
Kinny - if you've photoshopped it to make it funky, then no (sorry!). If you cropped it in photoshop and that's all, then possibly.
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
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SILVER Member since Jul 2003
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Total posts: 2052
Posted:i dont get what the problem is with photoshop? like if i take a photograph, and fiddle with brightness contrast a bit how can you tell ive done that? the thing with photoshop is you cant really tell when something has been adjusted or not... you can make loads of subtle adjustments to make your photos look better with it.. and it wont look 'photoshoped'...
Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no
coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
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SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
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Posted:i agree with oli.
if we're not allowed to use photoshop at all, digital photographers are at a massive disadvantage.
i understand you don't want effects but saying 'no photoshop, full stop' is a bit too much - a good photo can be turned into a great one with just a few small level adjustments.
having said that, if you can't tell that you've used photoshop, then its probably okay to enter the photo into the competition!
cole.
if we're not allowed to use photoshop at all, digital photographers are at a massive disadvantage.
i understand you don't want effects but saying 'no photoshop, full stop' is a bit too much - a good photo can be turned into a great one with just a few small level adjustments.
having said that, if you can't tell that you've used photoshop, then its probably okay to enter the photo into the competition!
cole.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
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Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
PLATINUM Member since May 2003
Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Total posts: 5276
Posted:yup, not photoshop for digital photographers is like no manual print making for film photographers.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
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Bubbles_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
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Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
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SILVER Member since Nov 2004
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Total posts: 3383
Posted:i have some wicked ideas for this when im in france but my problem is a) im stupid, will a phone camera have enough resolution - mine is 3.2 megap.....?
what if i dont have a fancy camera whats the best way of getting the pic and being at least the minimum quality?
what if i dont have a fancy camera
whats the best way of getting the pic and being at least the minimum quality?Disclaimer:im not responsible for what i say or do whether it be before,during and after drinking alcoholic substances (owned by BMVC).
Creater of Jenisms(TM)
Virginity like bubble,one prick all gone.
Posted:I fully understand the no photoshop rule. I know a guy who can create photos with the craziest looking fire patterns- of course there's absolutely no fire involved, its all pasted/painted on. When there's a no photoshop rule, period, there won't be people looking at the end product saying, 'yeah, but that's probably faked anyway'.
'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
Deletegeorgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
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Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Total posts: 2387
Posted:That's the intent of the rule Entheogen - thanks for understanding. Very hard to word a rule to allow people to edit for brightness etc but not add effects.
Ze Bubbles - in the "olden days" people used to be able to take good quality photo's suitable for our purposes on (shock horror) "film" camera's! It's entirely possible to use an SLR film camera and convert the shot to digital...
Also, I'm checking out the resolution requirements with the calendar vendors and will have "the final word" on the entry page when we get that done.
George
Ze Bubbles - in the "olden days" people used to be able to take good quality photo's suitable for our purposes on (shock horror) "film" camera's! It's entirely possible to use an SLR film camera and convert the shot to digital...
Also, I'm checking out the resolution requirements with the calendar vendors and will have "the final word" on the entry page when we get that done.
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
Posted:Could the entrant not submit the 'original' image and the version with brightness contrast and cropping along side.
That way it will be clear what minor changes have been made without allowing blinding 'funkiness' to be added.
I do accept the photoshop rule in general, but like Oli, I see the benefit of allowing minor light state/ contrast adjustments, particularly if some of the entrees will be in low light (and thus difficult) lighting conditions for photography.
That way it will be clear what minor changes have been made without allowing blinding 'funkiness' to be added.
I do accept the photoshop rule in general, but like Oli, I see the benefit of allowing minor light state/ contrast adjustments, particularly if some of the entrees will be in low light (and thus difficult) lighting conditions for photography.
Delete
the_mods_stole_my_name
SILVER Member since May 2006
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travelling without moving
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SILVER Member since May 2006
travelling without moving
Location: Maghull, Liverpool, United Kin...
Total posts: 1286
Posted:this may sound silly, but does it have to be a pic of just one spinner? could it be a group of people doing their thing, like at a meet?
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Posted: Written by: georgemc
Good points about the horizontal and vertical cropping and resolution - thanks all. Will cogitate on that some more, but the intent is to create a calendar, and hopefully most people know what a calendar normally looks like so can plan their images appropriately.
You can't trust that the people share your view on what a calendar normally looks like.. and we can't trust that you share our view. Be as specific as possible --> less hassle.
Written by: Entheogen
I fully understand the no photoshop rule. I know a guy who can create photos with the craziest looking fire patterns- of course there's absolutely no fire involved, its all pasted/painted on. When there's a no photoshop rule, period, there won't be people looking at the end product saying, 'yeah, but that's probably faked anyway'.
This is graphic art not photography. Contrast and color correction etc is a normal part of digital photography. And a normal part of film photography.
Written by: georgemc
Very hard to word a rule to allow people to edit for brightness etc but not add effects.
Maybe hard but I'm sure you can do it.
I am against the shoot as much as possible and then photoshop trend of digital photography. I really put time and effort to get perfect pics the oldschool way. But I take my pics in raw-format and I will correct the whitebalance, contrast, exposure/brightness and colors of the picture if I find it necessary. I might even edit something out of a picture if it can't be cropped. Meaning something like a small distant light in a black background etc. I will not add anything. Or edit the flames or whatever.
I think it is a good idea to submit also the original pic if it has been modified in anyway. But then again you can never be sure if the pic is modified or not. I guess it comes down to the judges to decide wheter or not the submitted picture is photography or graphic art.
Good points about the horizontal and vertical cropping and resolution - thanks all. Will cogitate on that some more, but the intent is to create a calendar, and hopefully most people know what a calendar normally looks like so can plan their images appropriately.
You can't trust that the people share your view on what a calendar normally looks like.. and we can't trust that you share our view. Be as specific as possible --> less hassle.
Written by: Entheogen
I fully understand the no photoshop rule. I know a guy who can create photos with the craziest looking fire patterns- of course there's absolutely no fire involved, its all pasted/painted on. When there's a no photoshop rule, period, there won't be people looking at the end product saying, 'yeah, but that's probably faked anyway'.
This is graphic art not photography. Contrast and color correction etc is a normal part of digital photography. And a normal part of film photography.
Written by: georgemc
Very hard to word a rule to allow people to edit for brightness etc but not add effects.
Maybe hard but I'm sure you can do it.
I am against the shoot as much as possible and then photoshop trend of digital photography. I really put time and effort to get perfect pics the oldschool way. But I take my pics in raw-format and I will correct the whitebalance, contrast, exposure/brightness and colors of the picture if I find it necessary. I might even edit something out of a picture if it can't be cropped. Meaning something like a small distant light in a black background etc. I will not add anything. Or edit the flames or whatever.
I think it is a good idea to submit also the original pic if it has been modified in anyway. But then again you can never be sure if the pic is modified or not. I guess it comes down to the judges to decide wheter or not the submitted picture is photography or graphic art.
Point your toes.
DeletePosted:??? But isn't using photoshop more of less synonymous with doing graphic art on a photo? I mean, editing something out can use the exact same methods as painting something in, so where is the line actually drawn?
'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'
Deletefaith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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BRONZE Member since Jan 2006
wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Total posts: 3556
Posted:what about red eye?
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
georgemc
BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
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BRONZE Member since Oct 2006
Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Total posts: 2387
Posted: Written by: the_mods_stole_my_name
this may sound silly, but does it have to be a pic of just one spinner? could it be a group of people doing their thing, like at a meet?
Fine - but you'll need the permission of everyone in the shot to submit it.
this may sound silly, but does it have to be a pic of just one spinner? could it be a group of people doing their thing, like at a meet?
Fine - but you'll need the permission of everyone in the shot to submit it.
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
Posted: Written by: Entheogen
But isn't using photoshop more of less synonymous with doing graphic art on a photo? I mean, editing something out can use the exact same methods as painting something in, so where is the line actually drawn?
I don't know where to draw the line. This is a forever ongoing discussion in photography forums. And I can submit pics to this particular competition without editing like this. But here is an example of a pic that I recently took and how I edited it. I edited out a piece of the slackrope and 2 small dots of light coming through the background fabric. And I still consider this photography. But like I said this kind of editing isn't necessary.
Non-Https Image Link
But isn't using photoshop more of less synonymous with doing graphic art on a photo? I mean, editing something out can use the exact same methods as painting something in, so where is the line actually drawn?
I don't know where to draw the line. This is a forever ongoing discussion in photography forums. And I can submit pics to this particular competition without editing like this. But here is an example of a pic that I recently took and how I edited it. I edited out a piece of the slackrope and 2 small dots of light coming through the background fabric. And I still consider this photography. But like I said this kind of editing isn't necessary.
Non-Https Image Link
Point your toes.
Delete_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
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Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Total posts: 5967
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Total posts: 5967
Posted: Written by: Faithinfire
what about red eye?
Try to ignore it, its just a by-product of getting stoned
what about red eye?
Try to ignore it, its just a by-product of getting stoned
Delete
Posted:why no photoshop?
I have cheap camera, plus many years of photoshop, that doesn't mean the photos aren't real.
I'd suggest your calender will be a lot better if you allow people to adjust the levels of the images, or at least convert to cmyk for you.
I mean the first thing whoeve makes the calender is going to do is, put it all into photoshop and adjust the levels (i hope)
And cropping photos is essential
Anyway, i'll be supplying images hugely manipulated in The Gimp It's much nicer than pshop anyhoo
I have cheap camera, plus many years of photoshop, that doesn't mean the photos aren't real.
I'd suggest your calender will be a lot better if you allow people to adjust the levels of the images, or at least convert to cmyk for you.
I mean the first thing whoeve makes the calender is going to do is, put it all into photoshop and adjust the levels (i hope)
And cropping photos is essential
Anyway, i'll be supplying images hugely manipulated in The Gimp
It's much nicer than pshop anyhooSpherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
Deletecoleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
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big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
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SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
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Posted: Written by: TheWibbler
It's much nicer than pshop anyhoo
blasphemy!
who would speak out against the adobegod?!??!
stone the heretic!
cole. x
It's much nicer than pshop anyhoo
blasphemy!
who would speak out against the adobegod?!??!
stone the heretic!
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Bubbles_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
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Carpal \'Tunnel
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SILVER Member since Nov 2004
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
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Posted:ahem 
sorry to interupt the photoshop debate but can anyone help?
Written by: Ze_Bubbles
i have some wicked ideas for this when im in france but my problem is a) im stupid, will a phone camera have enough resolution - mine is 3.2 megap.....?
what if i dont have a fancy camera whats the best way of getting the pic and being at least the minimum quality?
sorry to interupt the photoshop debate but can anyone help?
Written by: Ze_Bubbles
i have some wicked ideas for this when im in france but my problem is a) im stupid, will a phone camera have enough resolution - mine is 3.2 megap.....?
what if i dont have a fancy camera
whats the best way of getting the pic and being at least the minimum quality? Disclaimer:im not responsible for what i say or do whether it be before,during and after drinking alcoholic substances (owned by BMVC).
Creater of Jenisms(TM)
Virginity like bubble,one prick all gone.
Posted:The required resolution for the pic at the moment is 5 megapixels. So get a better camera or cheat and strech the picture into the required resolution hoping that it still looks good enough for printing. Phone cameras give crap quality anyway even with the higher resolutions these days.
Point your toes.
DeleteBubbles_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
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SILVER Member since Nov 2004
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:thankyou! ill see if i can a friend help me with the resolution, i dunno how it works 
Disclaimer:im not responsible for what i say or do whether it be before,during and after drinking alcoholic substances (owned by BMVC).
Creater of Jenisms(TM)
Virginity like bubble,one prick all gone.
coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
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SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
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Posted:stretching 3.2 megapixels to the equivalent dimensions of a 5 megapixel camera will not give you high enough definition that is desired for the print version of this calendar i'm afraid
the reason there is a specified resolution rtaher than specified dimensions is so that you can guarantee a print resolution of 300dpi at the desired size of the calendar (see my post on the first page for a link to a handy website that gives you conversions between pixel resolutions and the relative print sizes at 300dpi).
so basically, for digital camera users, the simple answer is: you must use as a minimum a 5 megapixel camera
note that this 5 megapixel minumum assumes that you have not cropped your image at all - to maintain the desired resolution in a cropped image, you will need to have used a higher resolution camera.
cole. x
the reason there is a specified resolution rtaher than specified dimensions is so that you can guarantee a print resolution of 300dpi at the desired size of the calendar (see my post on the first page for a link to a handy website that gives you conversions between pixel resolutions and the relative print sizes at 300dpi).
so basically, for digital camera users, the simple answer is: you must use as a minimum a 5 megapixel camera
note that this 5 megapixel minumum assumes that you have not cropped your image at all - to maintain the desired resolution in a cropped image, you will need to have used a higher resolution camera.
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
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Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Total posts: 5967
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002
Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)
Total posts: 5967
Posted:While we're talking about Low-res cameras: And I doubt this is going to be allowed, due to the photoshop problems: but would it be allowed to submit a series of say 4 to 6 photos arranged into a square rectangle?
Say a series of shots taken at different times during the same spin/at the same location, or even different viewpoints? i.e north/east/south/west views from on top of a mountain
that would allow people with lower res cameras to compete, but they'd have to produce at least 4 decent images first and then assemble them.
I heartily agree with the idea of allowing use of photoshop to 'tidy up' pictures, so long as the original photo is submitted as well... I don't think people will be that inclined to 'cheat' really.
Say a series of shots taken at different times during the same spin/at the same location, or even different viewpoints? i.e north/east/south/west views from on top of a mountain
that would allow people with lower res cameras to compete, but they'd have to produce at least 4 decent images first and then assemble them.
I heartily agree with the idea of allowing use of photoshop to 'tidy up' pictures, so long as the original photo is submitted as well... I don't think people will be that inclined to 'cheat' really.
Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
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Bubbles_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: mancunian, United Kingdom
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SILVER Member since Nov 2004
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:cheers cole!
i realy want to do my idea so will try and find a 5meg or higher to use which may prove difficult...
i realy want to do my idea so will try and find a 5meg or higher to use which may prove difficult...
Disclaimer:im not responsible for what i say or do whether it be before,during and after drinking alcoholic substances (owned by BMVC).
Creater of Jenisms(TM)
Virginity like bubble,one prick all gone.
Posted:I am thinking of entering hopefuly get some nice shots you might recongise some of the places lol
he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.
Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing
Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003
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Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...
Total posts: 13215
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003
Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...
Total posts: 13215
Posted:LazyAngel, I think thats a really cool idea.
*puts hand up to support it in the rules*
*puts hand up to support it in the rules*
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Posted:You can strtch a 3Mpix image to 5Mpix by using proper printing software, it uses fractals to determin what the missing pixels should be and works amazingly well.
You can do it pretty well in pshop, just bump the interpolation settings up to the max, make it bigger than you need, then paint in any dodgy pixels, and shrink down the the desired size, oops, if you were allowed,
Cole, pshop 7 rocks, but cs1 and cs2 sucks the big one imo.
Adobe actually took out the ability for windoze to preview psd files from pshop in cs and made their dodgy and extremely processor hungry image viewer called bridge.
For years i kept an old version of pshop just so i could see psd thumbs, now i don't have and have to guess.
Gimp is at least as good as pshop 6 now, it's completely free and isn't bulked out to the max, like pHatshop. There is also a wicked theme called gimpshop which has identical menus to pshop. It's a bit weird to use but has some crazy features that pshop doeant, like script-fu
ANyhoo, all my images are manipulated so i can't enter, which is a shame.
I like the multi image idea.
m
You can do it pretty well in pshop, just bump the interpolation settings up to the max, make it bigger than you need, then paint in any dodgy pixels, and shrink down the the desired size, oops, if you were allowed,
Cole, pshop 7 rocks, but cs1 and cs2 sucks the big one imo.
Adobe actually took out the ability for windoze to preview psd files from pshop in cs and made their dodgy and extremely processor hungry image viewer called bridge.
For years i kept an old version of pshop just so i could see psd thumbs, now i don't have and have to guess.
Gimp is at least as good as pshop 6 now, it's completely free and isn't bulked out to the max, like pHatshop. There is also a wicked theme called gimpshop which has identical menus to pshop. It's a bit weird to use but has some crazy features that pshop doeant, like script-fu
ANyhoo, all my images are manipulated so i can't enter, which is a shame.
I like the multi image idea.
m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
Deletecoleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
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SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
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Posted: Written by: TheWibbler
You can strtch a 3Mpix image to 5Mpix by using proper printing software, it uses fractals to determin what the missing pixels should be and works amazingly well.
i wouldn't say extremely well (although a 3Mp to 5Mp enlargement might not be *too* bad).
most printers would use hardware interpolation, not software i reckon - similar to what is used inside a high-resolution scanner.
quality of results depend on the content in my experience - its okay for enlarging very low res pixel stuff but i think its more than noticable on photos and it often has lots of trouble with text and other straight lines.
on the gimp v photoshop thing, i was only having a laugh to be honest
i only ever used photoshop 7 on a pc and moved directly to cs2 since i turned mac - i've never even used the gimp so i can't really comment at all.
i rarely use any of the advanced features and am really a lightweight photoshop user - pretty much only need it for image conversion, photo adjustment, scanning and so on.
i have to say i like the fact that adobe took the file browser out of photoshop and made bridge (but that's probably because i use photoshop, illustrator and indesign - if it could preview quark files too i'd be an even happier bunny but it'll never do that!).
i use it to manage my image library too.
why do you say its dodgy?
not sure the script-fu thing does it for me as i'm not a coder and far more important to me is photoshop's colour handling and tablet support (or does gimp supprt tablets now?).
cole. x
You can strtch a 3Mpix image to 5Mpix by using proper printing software, it uses fractals to determin what the missing pixels should be and works amazingly well.
i wouldn't say extremely well (although a 3Mp to 5Mp enlargement might not be *too* bad).
most printers would use hardware interpolation, not software i reckon - similar to what is used inside a high-resolution scanner.
quality of results depend on the content in my experience - its okay for enlarging very low res pixel stuff but i think its more than noticable on photos and it often has lots of trouble with text and other straight lines.
on the gimp v photoshop thing, i was only having a laugh to be honest
i only ever used photoshop 7 on a pc and moved directly to cs2 since i turned mac - i've never even used the gimp so i can't really comment at all.
i rarely use any of the advanced features and am really a lightweight photoshop user - pretty much only need it for image conversion, photo adjustment, scanning and so on.
i have to say i like the fact that adobe took the file browser out of photoshop and made bridge (but that's probably because i use photoshop, illustrator and indesign - if it could preview quark files too i'd be an even happier bunny but it'll never do that!).
i use it to manage my image library too.
why do you say its dodgy?
not sure the script-fu thing does it for me as i'm not a coder and far more important to me is photoshop's colour handling and tablet support (or does gimp supprt tablets now?).
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003
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GOLD Member since Jul 2003
Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Total posts: 1584
Posted:this is great :] I have a few old pictures i could submit to this. I hope they are nice enough
To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />
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