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Forums > Social Discussion > The Effects of Free Performing

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Jai


Jai

Member
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Total posts: 52
Posted:Hey all,

I would like to make a thread to inform everyone on the firetwirling industry that is being taken advantage of by many corperate bodies. Our art is no different than painting or film makers. We have a skill that is available to the community and we are being taken advantage of because of the lack of information that is out there for performers. Thats why i am writting this thread and need everyone to read this and post any information that i have left out. I am going to focus on 2 issues this poses for the future of fire twirling.

1. When someone performs for free it takes away business from the professional performers that spend their days perfecting their skills and routines.

2. Because most people who do work for free are amateurs, the quality of the performance is not as good as it would be from a professional. The corportations usually dont use firetwirlers again because there wasnt a good response from the crowd. And therefore more business is lost for professional performers.

So we need to stand up against the corporations who make millions of dollars each year and take advantage of our unorganised artform. They will tell you that they are doing you a favour and trying to give you 'experience', but all they want is free entertainment. Next time you are approached to perform for free, tell them that you will not do it. Tell them that you should be payed for your services and will not be taken advantage of. It is the for the good of the industry.

Now im sure there are alot of people out there that think im like a crazy 'twirling nazi'. But believe me, fire twirling has a great future for some people and in the future i wish to be one of those people. Would you paint a picture for a cafe for free? It is the same concept.

Please invite everyone to read and write in this thread. This is an important discussion for our industry.

Jai.


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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth

Total posts: 246
Posted:if anyone with experience has advice as to the minimum rates for this type of gig i am all ears. as far as i'm concerned we are not doing a free show. i have been told that we will be paid just havn't been told how much yet. if all goes well i would expect a better deal for future events because they also have a right to see how things go the first time.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ado-p: now you appear self-righteous. You should well admit that you don't need the money, are hungry for the chicks licking that paraffine off your sweating body, the applause and really I think you should leave it to those who are in need *tries to grabble his cellphone number* wink [/irony]



Being untaught is no excuse for endangering the environment. Enough accidents happen on a daily basis to experienced performers already. After all you're dealing with fire - a hard to control element that is potentially harmful. [/not as ironic]



In addition: spinning itself is fairly easy to learn, not a big deal - with fire? Not that much of a difference IMHO. Performing? Here it comes... Now: Professional (as in routined, well prepared and safe) performing - THAT is something else.



But those who put their blood sweat and tears into the art will certainly have to adapt to a rapidly changing environment...



Interesting what you are telling about copied products, NYC. That's why customs is checking shipments from China - because the products get copied. Not much of a problem on a pair of knickers maybe, but chainsaws and cutof-wheels - that's where it gets nasty...



@ Sagetree: PM on the way

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1161252511)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:True, its all about the hot chicks smile

Your right of course about safety and the environment. I would rather advocate awareness than regulation though. There seems to be a sentiment of 'come down hard on the newbies' from some posting here though and I think that is somewhat harsh. We were all beginners and I would bet that most people in the trade have learned the hard way.

I'd be interested in how many people here are performing professionally and how long everyone else has been at it. What have your experiences been like?


Love is the law.

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DavidJNolan


DavidJNolan

Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
Location: Vienna

Total posts: 240
Posted: Written by: sagetree


if anyone with experience has advice as to the minimum rates for this type of gig i am all ears. as far as i'm concerned we are not doing a free show. i have been told that we will be paid just havn't been told how much yet. if all goes well i would expect a better deal for future events because they also have a right to see how things go the first time.



I would suggest that you fix a price with the promoter before the event, and if at all possible get a contract. With an unfixed price based on ticket sales its very easy for them just to say that not enough people turned up and they can't afford to / won't pay you. Its very easy for them to refuse to pay you, and get another group to play for free and 'exeperience' at there next event -- there are enough people eager and willing to do this.

The price should depend on how many people are expected to perform and for how long, and whether you are performing a choreographed routine or simply playing freestyle


Not a spinner!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Sagetree- this post isn't directed at you, it's simply that the often heard phrase'being paid in drinks' is one that I want to address.

Personally, i hate the 'being paid in drinks' thing.

I feel it's insulting that a promoter would think 'payment in drinks' is appropriate.

Promoters have more than enough cash to pay performers- alcohol without the mark up is basically free to them- if, as a performer, you're being paid in drinks, you're basically NOT being paid.

Additionally, a lot of these idiot promoters are happy to supply the drinks before or during the spinning.

Finally, many of those 'performers' happy to accept payment in drinks are precisisly those who, by their behaviour, appearance and lack of safety nouse, who ensure that fire performers are banded together as a group to be not taken seriously.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: sagetree


if anyone with experience has advice as to the minimum rates for this type of gig i am all ears. as far as i'm concerned we are not doing a free show. i have been told that we will be paid just havn't been told how much yet. if all goes well i would expect a better deal for future events because they also have a right to see how things go the first time.



Like Y says, get a contract and get it signed by them.

Actually, rather than calling it a contract I basically prepare a sheet called 'Event Details, which lists everything- time/location of event, exactly what I'm going to do, what the organisers are going to provide (eg barriers) how much I'll be paid and in what form.

It's not called a contract, but it's basically a contract once we've both signed it.

I deal mainly with community groups and have little fear of being ripped off, the agreement I use because, from experience, i know that misunderstandings can arise- having everything written down and agreed to, prevents misunderstandings.

In the case of promoters, ripping off is common- you need a contract and it needs to state what you're going to be paid.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:wow dave, i really like that idea. ill have to use that in the future. tis much more assuring than 'okay, ill pay you $70 cash at the end of the night'

cheers, pete hug


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth

Total posts: 246
Posted:i totally agree with you OWD (i can't think of a time when i havn't)

@ Y - good idea, i will arange for a fixed price regarless of how many people come to the event. if they want to pay us depending on how many people show up then that will have to be something that will be added to the fixed price.

i will not accept free drinks as a single form of payment ever. and all drinks consumed will be after all spinning is over.

question #1: the promoter replied to my question of how long will we be performing? with as long as you like. i think that in order to arange a fixed price a minimum time length has to be established. for my own reference what are some decent figures per hour to start negotiations with? my thoughts currently are around 15 and hour. is this too cheap? i have no idea as this would be my first paid gig.

question #2: the promoter has said that their insurance will be covering us. i will need to see their policy in writing before i would feel combfortable. what should i be looking for? i doubt there will be something in the policy that says people spinning fire are covered. this is in less than 2 weeks and i don't think getting my own insurance is feasible. if their insurance checks out do i still need personal insurance?

sorry to be off topic but this seems like a good thread to get some advice.


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DavidJNolan


DavidJNolan

Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
Location: Vienna

Total posts: 240
Posted:Its difficult to say exactly how much to charge, but I would say don't accept less than 50 per person (more if you can get it), and don't work more than an hour (you'd be surprised how long that is when you are actually perfoming).

Try to find out how much other people in your area charge for the same or a similar service (eg, stage dancers) and charge a similar amount. Massively undercutting the competition because you don't really need the money is in many ways worse than not charging at all, because it drives down the cost across the whole market.

Remember, by performing outside their club, your are attracting customers and making them money. You are entitled to decent payment for that service


Not a spinner!

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:It's been good reading this thread to see that at least people are aware that doing gigs for free will negatively impact on people working hard at making a living...



But sage, your first question is one of the grey areas.



You have to consider the time you have spent developing your show, organising the gig, running the business, making the costume... as well as transport and fuel costs.



15 per hour is grossly under what you should charge (which is fine, you didn't know smile )



In many areas, the standard rate is 150 per hour... but then again, promoters expect a certain professionalism if they are going to be paying for it (hope this doesn't sound arrogant... tis true, though).



If you don't think you are quite there yet (and you have to be honest with yourself, while still valuing your art), then perhaps charge slightly less...



Also, don't commit yourself to many hours of performance - because you will be shattered.



Finally, get your own insurance through Country Mutual or Equity... you could rely on the promoter, but that's never a good idea - and it means you will have insurance for the next time.



Country Mutual:

160 (or thereabouts), runs from Sept to Sept and covers you for 2 mill fire liability.

270 (or thereabouts), runs from Sept to Sept and covers you for 5 mill fire liability



Equity:

100 (or thereabouts), runs for a year from the time you sign up, allows you to be part of the union and covers you for 5 mill public liability (non-fire), I think!

+

25 (or thereabouts), additional add-on for Equity policy - fire liability insurance for up to 2 mill.





Good luck.


Getting to the other side smile

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:hey sagetree.

Minium Id charge per-performer would be 50 for one hour, in two half hour sets, mimium two performers, otherwise if they ony wanted one they could have 1 perfromer for 50/65 for half an hour in two 15 min slots.

Thats minium, and ok for newbies, If me and silvia were to do our show we would chage them 150 per performer for 2 half hour shows, maybe 200. 15 per hour is peanuts. Its not like your doing to do an 8 hour shift, its one nights work, and 50 is reasonable for one nights work no?

As for the insurance thing, thats really dodgyt, and much more so in britan, where you have to have it. Check thier policcy if you can, get your own too, most brokers will be able to provide you with a cover note as soon as you pay them, so if you get on it now, you should be ok.

two years ago insurance was 140 but i expect its much more now. I dont curently have it as you dont need/cant get insurance in italy. For a list of insurers check out http://www.jugglingdb.com
br>
The promoter will probibly argue when you say 50 per performer, but dont put up with it, they know that its the minium rate, and thats why they are trying to hire you, to get less than professional rates, there are plenty of acts he could hire instead, but he'd have to pay for them.

Also, dont stand for this 'i will give you the money at the end of the night' crap. it means you will be done by 12, and have to wait till 4am to get your pay. the money has been taken already, you should be able to get it, tell this to the promoter at least the day before.

If anything make a written proposal that will act like provisional contract, outline what you will do, and what they will pay you. make sure the promotor has a copy. Its not a binding contract yet, but it gives you something to use if need be. Give an Invoice.

hope this helps.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: ado-p


True, its all about the hot chicks smile

Your right of course about safety and the environment. I would rather advocate awareness than regulation though. There seems to be a sentiment of 'come down hard on the newbies' from some posting here though and I think that is somewhat harsh. We were all beginners and I would bet that most people in the trade have learned the hard way.

I'd be interested in how many people here are performing professionally and how long everyone else has been at it. What have your experiences been like?



I developed in a cowboy fashion from many years back- i do know what it's like to be a newbie and I know how dangerous it is for the performer and, far more important, innocent bystanders.

Just because, like many here, I was a cowboy does not prevent me from saying this is the wrong way to do things.

These days the knowledge of the risks are out there.

Just last week speaking to my juggling friend and he's talking about the time his fire devil stick flew off into the audience landing on a childs head- how lucky that the child was not hurt, or that the childs parents didn't take his future earning via a court case.

I've never done loads of fire work. Recently, due to the huge size of the latest generation of wannabee performers in the area who will perform for booze or extremely cheaply, I'm again questioning whether next year I'll renew my fire insurance, cos there's not that much work.

Which leads me to a practical suggestion- no amount of discussion here or anywhere else is going to dent the fact that there will always be a new generation of spinners happy to perform for boozer, without insurance, without adequate safety measures.

Discussion is good and very necessary, in the long term it educates those involved.

However, in the short term, IMO, the best way to cause change is to address the employers.

When (not if) an audience member dies (happened already in Europe {fire act, but not spinning}) or is maimed, someone is going to get f*cked big time- if it's not the uninsured performer, it will be the employer.

Uninsured spinning hippies can not generally supply the millions the court will want to pass on to the victims, the employers of that spinner (promoters or community groups) can.

Spread the word amongst the people who are looking for performers- promoters may often be uncaring and greedy, but they also understand self-interest- fear of being sued is a big factor.

And let's remembers that they're not all b*stards- many, if they knew the real and genuine risks, they would not touch some of these performers with a bargepole- they do not want people in the audience hurt.

Let them know the truth.

Here in sheffield, i'm not particularly concerned with the uninsured who are taking the work- partly because I'm not that interested in fire work for night clubs etc, partly cos I know them and don't want to be making trouble for them- most important, even though I disagree with their lack of insurance, i do know that they do, to an extent, address safety issues.

However, that's my choice (to leave it) and i would totally understand if those in other areas were being undercut by uninsured and less safty orientated crews, if they had a word with the employers. Particularly if, as is common, those employers were basically sub-contracters for the council in the area.

One thing i do do though, is talkabout safety issues with the community groups I've worked with/met with.

These tend to be very naive and trusting and, if sued, they're a genuine loss to the area.

I think it's fair to say, for example, that fire-breathers are less likely to be employed by community organisations (cos they now know the genuine dangers and the health effects on such performers) in this area- and that's something I'm not going to apologise for.

So, IMO, if we want to bring about change, ensure that inexperienced and irresponsible don;t get as much opportunity to endanger the lives of innocent (often children) audience members for the price of a few pints- it's down to us to be pro-cative, spread the word about the standard expected of fire performers, push for asking about insurance details etc, etc.

To those coming up the other way, i hope you're not offended by this post- I do understand that many of you are safety focused, that insurance is an issue (expensive)- like i said, I did the same thing (and probably less responsibly than many of you).

But, see my point of view- many are not as safety focused as you- I've personally witnessed vile stuff from 'performers' who should not have been anywhere near an audience.

I know that sometime, probably soon, an idiot spinning fire is going to end someones life and there's going to be a media frenzy and then we're all going to get branded as being the same.

At least if those of us who do care have been pro-active, helped out employers with our knowledge of safety and how potentially dangerous fire spinning can be, then, in those circles our reputation will distinuish us from the rest.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:oohh, clair! Im glad we agree!

Club promoters are the absolute worst for stiffing peaple. Dont let them!

and yeah, make it clear how long you will perform for, think of each performer being paid for half an hour, so two performers together will do an hour, for two fees, one can do half an hour and will need paid double if they are going to do the whole hour. IF you agree on 150 +expenses for two performers, and then they want another performer, the pice must go up too, dont let them say 'we are paying flat rate 150 and you share it how you like' THEY want the third performer and the extra time, they pay for it.

TBH, half an hour is a long time for 50, but if your total newbs with no costumes or routeens then its ok.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Oh c'mon! I spend the time to make a decent, well thought out arguement that directly disagrees with half the stuff said before it and everyone's like

"*shrug* I guess so."

Nobody just skimmed my post and mistread it as "All firespinners are unprofessional" or "Firespining doesn't deserve to be an art" or something it didn't actually say?!

Why did I even LOG onto the INTERNET if people aren't going to misrepresent what I said and react solely from emotion and personal bias?

You guys suck. tongue


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave


 Written by: ado-p


True, its all about the hot chicks smile

Your right of course about safety and the environment. I would rather advocate awareness than regulation though. There seems to be a sentiment of 'come down hard on the newbies' from some posting here though and I think that is somewhat harsh. We were all beginners and I would bet that most people in the trade have learned the hard way.

I'd be interested in how many people here are performing professionally and how long everyone else has been at it. What have your experiences been like?



I developed in a cowboy fashion from many years back- i do know what it's like to be a newbie and I know how dangerous it is for the performer and, far more important, innocent bystanders.

Just because, like many here, I was a cowboy does not prevent me from saying this is the wrong way to do things.

These days the knowledge of the risks are out there.
.



I cant figure out if you've taken me out of centext or not. My post was aimed at the people taking an agressive and negative stance against new people who are making mistakes are are talking about forming regulatory bodies and such.

I agree completly with you dave. Saftey first.

I find it a shame that in these days of 'litigation culture' that one of the foremost thoughts in our minds when considering safety is about law suits and that sometimes this seems to overshadow the trauma of a serious injury.


Love is the law.

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:smile



Nx:



grouphug



And NYC...



tongue

EDITED_BY: _Clare_ (1161259746)


Getting to the other side smile

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sagetree
GOLD Member since May 2006

sagetree

organic creation
Location: earth

Total posts: 246
Posted:thanks for all the advice. very helpful.

i'll let you all know how things work out.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: ado-p


I find it a shame that in these days of 'litigation culture' that one of the foremost thoughts in our minds when considering safety is about law suits and that sometimes this seems to overshadow the trauma of a serious injury.



But... that involves thinking about someone else.

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:We have a fireman in our group who always does a risk assesment before performances and as our designated "organiser" now will not let anyone perform without the required level of iinsurance (if we are using fire)



I'm interested to know if groups in my area would be interested in a low level kind of affilliation where recognised prices are used and places using "Un-insured performers" recognised and warned of the dangers (such as losing thier license if they contravene fire saftey regulations etc)



ok I get that a union or governing body is a difficult concept but could local affilliations work as a point for local groups to share information which could benefit the community? also a list of "professional troupes" somewhere could help all, if we are asked to do a gig way up north or on a night we were already booked we could always pass on the details of another troupe if we had thier details.



I know we have passed up gigs before because we didn't have contact details for a reputable group, when we were busy.

Better to give fellow performers work rather than have a venue go to "free performers" and think they can always go that route.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Aeori


Aeori

member
Location: Dorking(home), Sunderland(uni)

Total posts: 77
Posted: Written by: _Y_

a good show is about so much more than playing technical stuff.



I agree smile I guess it would be an extremly difficult thing to organise and wold need an EXTREMLY large amount of research before anything would happen. I still like the vague idea of it though ubbangel
I agree that a good show is far more than just technical stuff. You can do a technically prefect weave but someone doing one tess technically perfect with flam will almost always be more interesting to those viewing.
A good show deffinately is based on performance rather than just being good at spinning.

And sorry I got all defensive! I had had a bad day.... took your post a bit too much to heart rolleyes I'm silly like that ubblol


Fear my wrath and call me muffin for I am the muffin of doom!!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Sorry, did that just pass everyone by? umm

OneWheelDave just SWORE!!! eek

 Written by: OWD

get f*cked



wink


(This is a excellent thread btw guys, and is the first one Im ever adding to my favourites. Thanks goes to everyone grouphug kiss )


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: ado-p





I cant figure out if you've taken me out of centext or not. My post was aimed at the people taking an agressive and negative stance against new people who are making mistakes are are talking about forming regulatory bodies...











Sorry ado-p, I was using a specific part of your post as a jump point to what i was discussing and I should have just used the relevant bit which was-



"I'd be interested in how many people here are performing professionally and how long everyone else has been at it. What have your experiences been like? "



Which led me onto the way that my fire spinning in performance terms had come from fairly cowboy (unprofessional) origins.



Then I continued on to the other points so I was just using your quote as a jump-off point rather than specifically replying to anything you'd said.



 Written by: ado-p





I agree completly with you dave. Saftey first.



I find it a shame that in these days of 'litigation culture' that one of the foremost thoughts in our minds when considering safety is about law suits and that sometimes this seems to overshadow the trauma of a serious injury.









We do agree- safety first.



Personally, i have less reservations about 'litigation culture' than many as I see positive aspects in it.



In particular, i feel that it's a wake-up call for communities like ours who feel that 'self-regualtion' is far better (for us and the audiences) than official/organised bodies/legislation.



In that today, we have many groups that are now subject to legislation who left the calls for 'self-regulation' too late (an example being the smoking in pubs issue, where after legislation is put in place they then start saying self-regulation would have been better, having manifestly displayed that, without legislation, smokers groups made no effort to respect or engage with the concerns of non-smokers in pubs).



So, if we as spinners wish to self-regulate, we need to accept that the rules are not going to be to everyones liking (we're a very diverse community) but perhaps to reflect on the fact that we'd do a better job than government legislative bodies?



Because, when the inevitable, serious and public accident happens, self-regulation ceases to be an option.



ado-p, i'm very glad you raised this point-



 Written by: ado-p



'I find it a shame that in these days of 'litigation culture' that one of the foremost thoughts in our minds when considering safety is about law suits and that sometimes this seems to overshadow the trauma of a serious injury. '







it's one that I'm very aware of- once government legisaltion is in place there is a very real danger that groups employing fire artists are thinking in terms of what they have to do to legally cover themselves, at the expense of a bit of common sense sometimes.



As an example, some years back I was very concerned about our students juggling society hiring out fire jugglers for student balls in which I personally witnessed young female students in extremely vulerable ball dresses (lacy and highly flammable) where occasionally literally bumping into the fire jugger (no barrier, crowded passing point as the taxis arrived).



On discussion at meetings, the older and sensible members took it seriously and seemed to focus on the litigation risk.



I was a little disturbed by the fact that, at this meeting and others, I had to point out the fact that, in the event of an accident there is also of course the fact that an 18 year old girl could well suffer horrific burns- if such a dress ignites we're looking at 80% serious body burns and a life ruined.



So, i totally agree, we need to look beyond the litigation (though it is an excellent lever to encourage employers to take things seriously as, if they don't understand human suffering, they do understand money and risk of being sued) and reflect on the fact that the priority is to prevent people being badly hurt.



How many of us have seen organisations following the 'letter' of health and safety to comply with govt regulations, yet it's been obvious that they actually consider it to be a tedious waste of time: or environments that comply with legislation yet are not actually safe?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'm pretty sure that there will be regulation of fire arts fairly soon- if the fire community continues to focus on the bad aspects of regualtion, the ways in which it won't favour everyone, then the government will happily sort it out for them.

And, in all liklihood, they will botch it because they do not understand fire spinning and the risks anywhere near as well as those of us who do it (responsibly).

IMO, in order of preference, here are the possibiliites-

1 (the best) effective self regulation by the fire community, which genuinely addresses the real safety issues- by necessity leaving some feeling put out because this is unavoidable (for example, there's no way that fire-breathing health issues can be taken seriously without offending some fire breathers)

2. Goverment regulation- FAR from ideal, but, IMO preferable to option 3

3. Leaving things as they are, with the odd discussion which either degenerates into squabbling factions or, actually addresses the issues effectively but leads to no action.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:I studied sports regulating bodies a lot at uni. many start out as local affiliations (see my previous) and these band together eventually becoming a recognised governing/ national body, before going international.
It would make more sense for people to go this route than have government legislation slapped on fire performance by some pen happy beaurocrat.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: NYC

Nobody just skimmed my post and mistread it as "All firespinners are unprofessional" or "Firespining doesn't deserve to be an art" or something it didn't actually say?!

Why did I even LOG onto the INTERNET if people aren't going to misrepresent what I said and react solely from emotion and personal bias?



Are you trying to get in competition with me, or simply trying to project your practice onto everybody else? umm ubblol wink

OWD: Nicely worded. Been there (cowboy) done that, no need to repeat all the bad stuff. Especially since the community has grown by at least 5% since the days... Meaning that one cowboy back then is replaced by x-numbers of cowboys up to date.

Thanks for rephrasing the need for self-regulation... clap if you say it, maybe people even take it wink To me it's the necessary evil in the long run.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted: Written by:

So, if we as spinners wish to self-regulate, we need to accept that the rules are not going to be to everyones liking (we're a very diverse community) but perhaps to reflect on the fact that we'd do a better job than government legislative bodies?


one thing that government legislative bodies are a lot better at is enforcement. What can a self-regulatory body do to enforce its rules? Nowt. You can give a 'kite-mark' to 'professional standard' spinners, but thats only as effective as long as those hiring performers are aware of it.

and to restate t'obvious:
 Written by:

if you think that'd be a good idea, then you could do it yourself, and maybe other people would help out. Talking about organisations that should exist, and what would be great is kinda pointless without some sucka to do the groundwork



"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:firedancing.com rolleyes


groundwork y'say? wink


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Let's say there are 3 groups of people.

1) People that only spin fire for fun.
2) People that spin fire for money occasionally.
3) People whose sole income is firespinning.

I do not believe that more than 1% of the firespinning community fits into category 3. I do not believe that such things as unions and self regulation make any sense in an industry that is 99% hobbyists.

I don't like this whole "We're gonna make a couch sitter's union, and we're gonna charge $10 an hour to sit on our couches, and anybody that sits on their couch for free is flooding the market, and we're going to regulate ourselves to make sure that everyone is sitting on their couches in the safest way..." stuff.

There will always be idiot promoters willing to throw a party without ANY permits or licences (liquor, occupancy, fire performing, etc..) and there will always be firespinners who will be glad to perform there for free.

I do not believe that firespinning is a global or national industry. And you can't regulate an industry that doesn't exist.

On a positive note, I think you can influence individual communities. If you get to know local fire inspectors and police and local club promoters and local event organizers then you CAN develop a situation where everyone becomes educated enough to make yourself a commodity. And you can actually create an ideal by having promoters and law enforcement recognize the difference between professionals and non-professionals. I don't think this happens in a top-down manner like y'all are talking about. I think this happens on an individual case-by-case basis in individual communities.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Well said, NYC

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:We can list all the things on which many disagree on- that's fairly straightforward.



What about the things we can, in the main agree on?



If some members of this community got together and decided to hammer out a few basic things concerning safety and responsible fire art practice that they could all agree were important, in an effort to get something together before the inevitable fire accident that leads to the goverment putting legislation in place- what would those things be?



I'll throw out a couple of possibilities to get some feedback on-



1. insurance- do we, in the main, agree that it is a good thing that fire performers are insured? That it is a bad thing that many fire performers are not insured?



2. fire breathing, do we agree that there are serious issues with fire breathing and health and that potential employers should be considerably more aware of those issues than they currently are?



Obviously, even if we do concur on either of those, much more discussion is necessary to thrash out what actually needs to be done about them, but I feel a good starting point is to actually see if, in principle, we do have agreement.



and, of course, are there any other possibilities that people can put forward as candidates for agreement? If so, let's hear them.





 Written by: NYC





On a positive note, I think you can influence individual communities. If you get to know local fire inspectors and police and local club promoters and local event organizers then you CAN develop a situation where everyone becomes educated enough to make yourself a commodity. And you can actually create an ideal by having promoters and law enforcement recognize the difference between professionals and non-professionals. I don't think this happens in a top-down manner like y'all are talking about. I think this happens on an individual case-by-case basis in individual communities.





I agree with that. It's pretty much what i've been doing except with community groups rather than corperate/events promotion.



It's definitly part of the solution, along with partial community consensus and the other things mentioned.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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