• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 
Page: 1...101112131415
tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:I thought i would start a thread for people interested in fire staff juggling,i am really interested to see any videos of people throwing two or more staffs,and in particular anyone taking it in new direction.
I am currently working on routines with two and three staffs and contemplating a serious attempt at the four staff shower,



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:thanks to seb i have that reverse cascade down a bit more practice tonight is required for consistancy, but I'm still struggling on the "antii" snake cascade my wrists just don't want to play shrug

patterns learnt so far
standard cascade
"french"? cascade (with behind the head flourish)
reverse cascade
shower (only 1 way so far)
time reverse follow (mills mess takeouts)

close but no cigar
antii's cascade
mills mess
3 staff tennis


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Irinus
enthusiast
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 222
Posted:Tim, where were you? I didn't see you @ Play frown



For those of you who weren't there, it was - of course - great biggrin



Staff juggling:





Seb (bastl) gave a very good staff throwing workshop. It was very focussed on three staff juggling and therefore bypassed a lot of stuff that Ima taught at Uber. I thought it was cool that some people who have never been tempted to learn juggling with balls or clubs want to learn to juggle staves! (though they've got a lot of ball juggling to do first!). The workshop was prefaced by a very good staff-juggling-specific warmup, all of which I've incorporated into my normal warmup. Thank you Sonia! (if that's how you spell it).



Seb also headlined the main show on Saturday night and gave a mindblowing performance mixing contact (almost exclusively fishtail-based, actually, all fishtail based!) and throwing. Both of these sections were equally impressive and I'm looking forward to see him combine the two one day!(throwing fishtails with 3 staves) nudge nudge...



More and more people are getting to grips with passing (mostly chop-shower a la Fenfire) and there were a few unfamiliar faces throwing staves around. A couple of guys seemed to be working pretty hard on their 4 staff passing (not Fens) does anyone know who they were? I never got round to saying hi frown



So, all in all there seems to be growth in staff juggling both at the basic levels (more people learning) and advanced (I think its safe to say that some of the tricks that Bastl did in the main show have never been done on stage before, and even MCP has some throwing in her doubles routine that I first saw at Uber and again at Play).



Unfortunately there was no Ima and Antti is more into the Feisha at the moment, but I look forward to seeing these two throwing again before too long (please!) hug



It'd be good if someone who was there for the first couple of days could fill me in on anything that I missed... Right, now that the sun is finally out (for five whole days!), it's a good time to practice. juggle juggle juggle oh no, four more hours of work to go frown



Irinus
enthusiast
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 222
Posted:Oh, and my 'most improved staff juggler' award (yes, I'm giving out awards now) goes to Mynci. I've never seen you juggle staves before but you kick my ass with those reverse chops! Hopefully see you soon biggrin


glenneroo
professional loser
Location: Wien
Member Since: 17th Jun 2004
Total posts: 140
Posted:4 staff passing? weak.

how about passing 6 staffs 'a blazing? biggrin

special austrian cookies to whoever can name the two people in this picture (if you were there and know the answer, don't spoil it wink)


Non-Https Image Link


fotography: glenneroo.net
filmography: glenneroo.org


Irinus
enthusiast
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 222
Posted:Glenneroo, we missed you!!! Hope things are better for you now hug smile


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted: Written by: Irinus


Oh, and my 'most improved staff juggler' award (yes, I'm giving out awards now) goes to Mynci. I've never seen you juggle staves before but you kick my ass with those reverse chops! Hopefully see you soon biggrin



redface aww shucks cheers dude, I was just practicing ball patterns with staves and got that. I was a 3 ball juggler about 4 years ago when I picked up a staff now I just want to fit allthose many (yes loads) of patterns into sticks I want to practice staff squeezes (2 staffs catch in same hand at same time) although I think they'll be tough.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:i wasnt at play because i had far to many gigs,this is great for me as ive been trying hard to get loads of gigs,but its a shame i missed the festival.

ive only learnt to juggle properly with balls very recently,i am lot cleaner on the threee and four staff shower than i am with balls for example,to me it seems crazy trying to learn staff patterns with balls or clubs,i can see how it may help a bit but surely the best way to improve your staff juggling is to juggle staffs not balls???



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:I think to learn a pattern it is easyier to use balls but I can do some tricks with staffs I can't do with clubs because I use 1.5 spins

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


glenneroo
professional loser
Location: Wien
Member Since: 17th Jun 2004
Total posts: 140
Posted: Written by: Irinus


Glenneroo, we missed you!!! Hope things are better for you now hug smile


i missed you all too sooooooo very much frown i had to stop reading the play thread it was making me cry hehe

and thanks, things are indeed looking up, but only time will tell how it all ends.

lots of hug to you too smile


fotography: glenneroo.net
filmography: glenneroo.org


glenneroo
professional loser
Location: Wien
Member Since: 17th Jun 2004
Total posts: 140
Posted: Written by: tim_marston


bit but surely the best way to improve your staff juggling is to juggle staffs not balls???


i wouldn't be so hasty there. practicing all sorts of other arts helps in many (often unforseeable ways) just as an example, juggling balls helps learn poi and vice-versa. If anything its practicing different types of coordination, muscles and my favorite: tweaking your mind, to get it off the same-ole nothing-but-staff mindset can really be a firestarter for new unique ideas. I just love watching people come back to festivals year after year, having learned something new, and then having merged two arts together to form something totally new and mind-blowing!

facit: it may not be clear how juggling balls will help you juggle staffs, but don't think about it, keep at it and i'm sure there will be many fruits of your labor.


fotography: glenneroo.net
filmography: glenneroo.org


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:im sure it will help in an abstract way,im just not sure learing a four ball shower for example will make any direct difference to my four staff shower,at least not as much as spending the time with staffs in my hand if that makes sense?
(big hugs at ya gleneroo)



glenneroo
professional loser
Location: Wien
Member Since: 17th Jun 2004
Total posts: 140
Posted: Written by: tim_marston


im sure it will help in an abstract way,im just not sure learing a four ball shower for example will make any direct difference to my four staff shower,at least not as much as spending the time with staffs in my hand if that makes sense?
(big hugs at ya gleneroo)


sure a good point, i mean more that the time you invest in practicing anything other than your core competency will help your coordination and in general, mucking with your brain will eventually pay off, though if you know "ok i need to get the four staff shower down" then it may very well be better to just hardcore train that until you get it down pat, however, the four ball shower, or any tricks for that matter, 3 or 4 ball or switching between 3 and 4 might help you come up with other ideas for how to use those 3/4 staffs... get my gist?

hug back atcha bro!


fotography: glenneroo.net
filmography: glenneroo.org


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:I think ball juggling is a good way to learn an actual pattern. I played with some last night and even easy 3 ball stuff is hard with sticks.

I got 5 throws/catches of 3 staff columns last night biggrin

not true columns as middle staff stayed in right hand instead of switching but a happy start.
2 outside staffs up similtaneously wicks forward and back, middle staff up on it's own wicks left to right so your in a kind of box, very tricky, think I'll go back to mills's mess although I can still only manage 3 throws, catches comfortably with that the change of dirction still throws me a bit.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: tim_marston


im sure it will help in an abstract way,im just not sure learing a four ball shower for example will make any direct difference to my four staff shower,at least not as much as spending the time with staffs in my hand if that makes sense?



I'm pretty much sure it will. People have said that the quickest way to learn a face balance is to start with a broomstick, heavily end weighted and gradually work down to a club, and then even smaller.

That is to say: start with something easy to learn and gradually work out small steps towards the desired object. So a progression to sticks might go something like: balls -> clubs -> ring pancakes -> basketballs -> sticks (or cut out rings and basketballs, they were just for size.) Balls teach you to juggle. Clubs teach you how to juggle with spin. The rings and basketballs teach you how to keep a lot of space in your pattern cos your objects are so big.

Working up to something is almost always better than just force learning it. I think. Because:

You build up the muscles you need gradually.
You learn one step at a time, and hence quicker. Cos you don't have to learn everything at once.
You don't learn any bad habits from learning too quickly.
You can feel the pattern with the easy objects, then when you get that same feeling with the larger ones, you know you've learned it, what to strive for.
You spend a lot of time juggling small objects, which is easy on your body, and only a little time transferring the technique to the big ones. Spending a lot of time on the big ones can easily wreck your body.

downsides: no you won't be spending all that time understanding the way staffs throw and catch.
Your hands might get used to lighter objects being caught and hurt when you catch staffs.
Nobody cares about normal juggling, so you might as well juggle something interesting and novel like a fire staff.

errr. oh well, lost my point again. Darn it.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


bastl
bastl

member
Location: vienna / austria
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2004
Total posts: 123
Posted:ubblol some went to the workshop and now ball juggling seems to be the preperation ubblol

but i completly agree with glenneroo and meg, both found very good reasons, one more might be that it is so much easier to find space to train balls than staffs wink so you can train the rhythms or even sequences much more often, than just in your staff training...

but exept that no more to add..and some patterns should just be played with balls..like boston mess biggrin


_told the fishfable to wes peden
_heard gloria gaynors "i will survive" 3 times live allready....in the same 20 min performance!


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:i think you could do boston mess if you make the staffs into a box around you like I tried with columns yesterday and turned, instead of just facing forward, it wouldn't be pretty to start with but you could make it look very technical.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


glenneroo
professional loser
Location: Wien
Member Since: 17th Jun 2004
Total posts: 140
Posted:*waiting for tim to come up with a good retort*

mwuahahaha!


fotography: glenneroo.net
filmography: glenneroo.org


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:i have only a limited amount of training in any one day,
i am still unconvinced that throwing a four ball,club or ring shower is going to help me improve my four staff
shower more quickly than going outside and throwing my staffs,
practising the three and four club shower seems really daft to me because they spin totally different to clubs???((tim awaits bastls response eagerly))

i do bastl take your point about balls and clubs increasing indoor training time however

megan i agree that i need to build up to the pattern slowly which is why i still spend lots of time on the 2 and 3 staff shower (small mediuum and big) with varied amunt of spins,
i also work small 3 staff shower into 3 up into small three staff shower(pretty damm hard).some people would call this a flash i think
having also consulted a steven ragatz article on the IJDB I am also having the odd attempt a the five staff shower and four ups,aparently when training numbers its recomended to train above as well as below your chosen level of difficulty,this one seems really mad to me but im giving it a go because i have a lot of respect for his work ethic and level of cleanliness,
athough he did slag jago off for doing contact,i geuss he has got he toungue to far up michael motions bum...lol ubblol

i would be very interested to hear josh or anntti's thoughts on this matter???do they train patterns with balls or clubs before staffs??

as for injury,i am having lots of massages and physio,i stretch lots before every training session,i rest more between attempts and work on building muscle mass and strength equally on both shouders using press ups and pull up variations to help balance the un-eveness of the shower training i do,
for me its too late to think about reversing the shower,for all beginners i strongly advise learning the shower both ways from begining to avoid to much muscle strain
the last injury prvention idea im brining into the equation is to have some ultra light carbon fibre staffs made,hopefully this should give my shoulder less work to do and also make my path to four staff cleanliness easier because bent staffs are never gonna be as good as straight ones when it comes to juggling.
bastl thanks for all your injury prevention advice especially the massage part,its prooved to be both useful and pleasurable, biggrin



tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:"but you could make it look very technical."
mynci i dont mean to be rude but why would you want a trick to look tecnical,isnt the idea to difficult tricks look easy??



bastl
bastl

member
Location: vienna / austria
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2004
Total posts: 123
Posted:hey tim

some thoughts:

for one, if find it very interesting to enter a pattern with loads of different objects, every objekt makes the "same" movement, but its also sliightly different, and every different information about the same pattern makes you think more about the pattern and gives you better understanding -make sence ?

maybe when you play 3 clubs shower you might find out a details which you wont get from staff...hm but asll this is quite hard to demonstrate via internet and writing wink



so anyway, i found it pretty useful for training and exploring loads of different patters, rather than just train 1- dont get me wrong tim, you know how much i love you 4 staff shower, but for me its 3 staff and loads of variations what makes it interesting..



to come back what master glenneroo said, who by the way is a genius in so many different things, you wont belive eek



everything you learn will influence your understanding, a little example: my parents hug paid me 16 years of druming lesson..i am boring at drumming, but my understanding of rhythm i got from this, is still the basic of all my juggling systems i developed for me, even he structure of my training. so if something like drumming influences my staff spinning, why not balls, or clubs, they are much closer to staffs than a bongo wink



but, when will we finaly meet tim ? iwould really like to chat propperly hug

laters seb


_told the fishfable to wes peden
_heard gloria gaynors "i will survive" 3 times live allready....in the same 20 min performance!


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:seb well put as always,
for me when i watch jugglers i love the simple to understand patterns such as backcrossess,showers,etc,thats why i choose to perform them,i really want my audience to have some understanding of the patterns i display,
for me crazy siteswaps and more visually complicated patterns just arent as entertaining,although i do feel a buzz knowing at some level the performer must have spent years perfecting such a pattern,
ive started to put some of the footcatchging stuff into my shows and it goes down great because most people have tried to catch and throw with their feet (usually a football or a hackysack or a bag of sugar they have dropped when unloading the shopping)they seem to identify with what im tryin i to do,
i am very tuned into the reaction of the crowd to my tricks and the comments they make afterwards,the plan is to create a series of tricks they love to watch and i love to perform

as for the idea of training with balls and clubs and the bigger point you made using drumming as an example i totally agree,
i will confesss i disagreed just to stimulate an interesting debate and to push people on here to examine their training patterns rather than just to assume they are correct,
i dont think i will start training clubs but im really enjoing playing with my balls!!!!!!
im planning to learn mills mess and the box as soon as i catch up with jago for a workshop,ive also managed to reverse the three ball shower its not clean yet but will be one day

a for us meeting up sometime,if www.jugglinginferno.com goes as well as i hope i may be able to fly you over here for a free weekend provdided you in return perform under the jugglinginferno name,if not maybe a fire festival somewhere or maybe i will treat my hopefully soon to be girfriend to a weekend in vienna
later dude
hug



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted: Written by: tim_marston



"but you could make it look very technical."

mynci i dont mean to be rude but why would you want a trick to look tecnical,isnt the idea to difficult tricks look easy??





I never said make the trick look hard I said technical, wink



Bastl's mills mess is technical as well as the cascade he showed us that he learnt from antii with the snake wrist movement. I think a boston mess could be done whilt turning on the spot it could still LOOK easy but the technique would be clearly different hence my use of the term technical. sorry for any confusion juggle


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Irinus
enthusiast
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 222
Posted:It depends if you want the trick to look difficult or easy. I'm probably not the best person to explain this but if you download this Luke Burrage podcast:

http://www.lukeburrage.com/audio/Jugglin...ling%20chat.mp3

from:

http://www.lukeburrage.com/thingonthenet/

and listen for a couple of minutes from 52:35 (I'd skip the rest of this particular podcasts though he has many other good podcasts to listen to) you'll get an illustration of my point.

'The Zen of Juggling' book by Dave Finnigan should also help in developing new ideas on this topic smile

hug juggle hug
p.s. offtopic I'm cutting my hair off. Please sponsor me here



ugoAgogo
ugoAgogo

member
Location: Brighton / Canterbury
Member Since: 5th Apr 2003
Total posts: 112
Posted:i treid some three staff juggling last week,

i am using staffs that are just over 1 meter in length (im not entirly sure, but they are standard broom handle length)

i did it continuosly for about 20 minutes before being to tired to continue.
I was trieng to shower them (they were all going the same direction) as i have this down with two staffs perfect, and can do passes behind my back confidently,

However after doing this i became aware i had seriously damaged some muscles in my right shoulder, and have had to give all spinny/ thowing activitys a rest. This is rubbish because it is so sunny and nice at the moment!

anyhow, i hope to get this trick one day as i am pretty sure i am capable of it!


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. . . . . . . . . . . . . ZAP


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:if you can juggle dude it's quite a simple step but you REALLY have to warm up all the muscle groups involved because you put a lot more strain on your body than you would think especially compared to juggling clubs.

I'm off out tomorrow for a serious session of 3 staff action I have a couple of patterns I want to try including the box and some more practice on 3 staff tennis.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


entheogen
entheogen

member
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 4th Mar 2005
Total posts: 173
Posted: Written by: ugoAgogo


i did it continuosly for about 20 minutes before being to tired to continue.




20 minutes that makes around 700-800 throws in a row, or?
i wonder why you muscles hurt biggrin

maybe try it with slightly more breaks in between
juggle


@ tim

yes indeed i do play sometimes with balls and clubs

not train them though but play with them

since they're easy on the body
the patterns that i can do with sticks , i can do them as well with the other toys

i just recently tried the 4 ball shower that i never trained before , and could do my 15 catches at the first try same with clubs

and of course for variations its always good to get the concept with the lighter toys - less pain
but maybe you like that smile

cu at some point
josh


'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'


ugoAgogo
ugoAgogo

member
Location: Brighton / Canterbury
Member Since: 5th Apr 2003
Total posts: 112
Posted:i know this now!!!!!
it was more like, 3 thows, drop. drop.
repeat
drop
repeat ect ect.


i wa just pushing for it, because i VERY nearly had it down.
It just got so frustrating, being so close to getting the trick, but not quite getting there,
Also if i had been doing a cascade rather than a shower, i think i would have not have hurt my body as the power would have been distrubuted from both of my arms rather than just one!
im going to stick with doubles for the moment, and maybe make up some more light weight staffs for three staff juggling,
Out of interest what do you guys use prop wise for three staff juggling, length weight ect. . . . or just regular fire sticks??
Shoulder is getting better now!


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. . . . . . . . . . . . . ZAP


bastl
bastl

member
Location: vienna / austria
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2004
Total posts: 123
Posted: Written by: ugoAgogo



Out of interest what do you guys use prop wise for three staff juggling, length weight ect. . . . or just regular fire sticks??





ours are 1 metre long,

with soft cover on the ends, thick gripbands wink

total weights of each staff 400 gramms



build first practice staffs, get patterns solid, and than think aoubt firestaffs...3 staffs needs a lot of non-fire-practice....just "some" ages biggrin


_told the fishfable to wes peden
_heard gloria gaynors "i will survive" 3 times live allready....in the same 20 min performance!


ugoAgogo
ugoAgogo

member
Location: Brighton / Canterbury
Member Since: 5th Apr 2003
Total posts: 112
Posted:ahh, makes sense,

i have been using broom handles, with weighted ends (tennisballs and plastercise) and innertube grip the whole way down.

i shall have to start making some three staff specific sticks.

i dont own any fire quipment at the moment apart from some swing clubs, i lost my "perfect" staff at Glade fest two years ago:( and the next stuff i get my mits on is going to be firetoys stuff.


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. . . . . . . . . . . . . ZAP


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:fire toys are in the process of developing a fire juggling staff at the moment so keep an eye on their site for details,
try learing the shower in both directions to releive the strain on your shoulder,also work on building up strength and muscle mass to help you juggle without serious injury,

irinus my opinion on luke burrage is that he should juggle more and talk less,he seems to take pleasure in being rude to people and appears to love himself a bit too much for my liking,his juggling however is pretty damm good,so thanks fella but i think ill give the podcast a miss

mynci fair point,do you perform your staff juggling?



Page: 1...101112131415