Page: 12
linda
member
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Since: 13th May 2002
Total posts: 93
Posted:Valura, you were right ages ago, this should be a separate thread.
For late comers, the "COL Feedback thread" is full of accusations of plagiarism.
If you read through the thread, it's not clear if there is one case of plagarism or several. There is talk of "routines". Somewhere in there, it mentions the Philippines! But I checked both of their videos and they seem fine.
But near as I can tell, the first minute of the "Masara in Daiba" video from Japan is very similiar to the two person staff routine in the Flame Oz performance. However, I'm assuming that their double and quadruple staff thingys are original. They're certainly neat.
So, ALL THE FUSS IS ABOUT ONE MINUTE OF VIDEO! ubbidea
Correct me if I'm wrong. confused
How does FlameOz feel about this?
If it was an entire three minute video, I would think this was really, really wrong. However, it was only one minute, so I think it's wrong. I wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't flip out if someone did it to me. Well... maybe a little tiny bit.
Of course you can judge for yourself. An outraged flying water muppet has posted a link to the flameoz routine on the bottom of page two of the "COL feedback thread". Thanks MCP, that's an amazing routine.
Malcolm, I hope you don't mind me trying to straighten this out.


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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:My bad to mention the Phillipines, I have not yet seen COL, one is in the mail. I will correct that immediately. Japan was it? Well that is even more relevant then to what I said on the other thread:



 Written by:

As to how it could have happened...

Well first, has anyone approached them/written and asked? I am quite happy to once I've seen it and made up my own mind.

But it is usual,is it not, in many Asian cultures, to directly copy a 'form' or training sequence from the 'master'. In every kind of learning and commerce, rote learning and copying is much much more common and accepted than Western countries. So possibly this group don't see it as badly as we do..."







FlameOz's response is in the other thread. Well, Dave's (Knoxious) anyway. He hasn't seen the entry either but roughly said it is 'generally lame to copy, FlameOz never taught that routine to anyone and isn't imitation a form of flattery?' Di is picking grapes in France and not likely to comment.



I cannot imagine that any of FlameOz would make any formal fuss or get into legals or any of that. Not their style and they have better things to do. They are a generous crew, loads of people have been influenced by them, they have developed and taught all sorts of things that have benefited lots of people's styles.



That is perhaps one reason why people feel offended on their behalf. And the respect for the quality of their choreo. They always did their own choreo. It takes ages to get a really good minute... wink


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: newgabe


It takes ages to get a really good minute... wink



Soooo true. hug


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: newgabe



I cannot imagine that any of FlameOz would make any formal fuss or get into legals or any of that. Not their style and they have better things to do. They are a generous crew, loads of people have been influenced by them, they have developed and taught all sorts of things that have benefited lots of people's styles.





i reckon that if flameoz were still selling that routine and their act (as heavily they were say two years ago), i think they might be a little more upset about it, but that's not for me to say really.



the moral of the story?



if you're gonna copy an act, copy one that isn't really being performed any more.



and obviously, if you can, try and only ever steal off hippies - they're generally far more forgiving...



wink wink wink



my copy of col is on the way so no serious comment from me until i seen it smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: coleman


my copy of col is on the way so no serious comment from me until i seen it smile

cole. x



I figured this whole kefaffle would sell more copies...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:i was ordering the sphercular vision dvd and i realised that as i'd already paid for postage, i couldn't go wrong getting a copy of col2006 for a fiver smile

i agree though - all this funny business must have sold a few extra copies.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: coleman





i reckon that if flameoz were still selling that routine and their act (as heavily they were say two years ago), i think they might be a little more upset about it, but that's not for me to say really.



the moral of the story?



if you're gonna copy an act, copy one that isn't really being performed any more.



cole. x





Well, if it makes a difference: Dave and Di's still do perform that routine from time to time (as FlameOz) And a classic photo of them doing it is very much their 'trademark' image...



I guess *fantasy* if the Floz were to attempt a reunion comeback in Japan and these other lads had blitzed the scene with their version it might make a difference. But apart from that unlikely scenario I suspect life will go on...ubbrollsmile



Except perhaps now all aspiring jedi will be obliged to learn to perform that routine perfectly in order to be taken seriously wink



.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Glumon
Glumon

stranger
Location: Prague
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 16
Posted:When I see some new tricks , I want to learn them .. When I see some good routine and is usable for us , we use this routine to our synchro /optimalized to our style/..

could you tell , that 5bt weave is somebodys copyright ??

Look on vids - Ninaruna - Infinitos .. both are poi duo routines , with duo weaves

you are talking about stolen routines - it means that when somebody doing duo weave somebody another couldn`t ??

Its very difficult to prepare new synchro routine, but when we show it on vid , we must prepare too copiing it .. Performers must preparing better and better tricks - not to stay on the place


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: newgabe


Except perhaps now all aspiring jedi will be obliged to learn to perform that routine perfectly in order to be taken seriously wink




jedi should never be taken seriously... biggrin

glumon: you should read the thread that spawned this thread. The COL 2006 feedback one.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Glumon
Glumon

stranger
Location: Prague
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 16
Posted:I looked to Masara id daiba vid one more time and must tell yout that we are doing very very similar Staff duo routine + some special our own tricks .. ( and I know a lot of groups doing routines like this vid - this groups never heard about FlameOz )
2 performers with staffs , could do basic synchro , like in this vid in 14+days , when they know staff well ..


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Yes maybe they could, but it would still be copying flameoz if they used all of flameoz's choreography.

They use the same stepping, the same arm positions, they same synchonisation and the same transitions. This is what it means to copy a ROUTINE and not just a 'trick'. There is nothing done in that first two person single staff section that isn't in Flame Oz's routine.

But I said this already in the other thread. Which is why I asked you to read it.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Glumon
Glumon

stranger
Location: Prague
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 16
Posted:mcp: yes I read it ..

same stepping - somebody like this style , in some tricks you must use predefined stepping to made trick well

same arm positions - If you wat to made duo trick perfect , you must use predefined position of arms

it was only less than 1min of duo routine /!edited!/ , maybe whole performance could be another , but this is only 3min sample ..

maybe it is plagiarism , maybe not .. have you link to FlameOZ vid on the web, or is it on some old COLs ? / I haven`t them here/


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maus
maus

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Member Since: 14th Jul 2005
Total posts: 4191
Posted:flameOz linky linky

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Meg has already linked to a small vid. Apart from this wee promo FlameOz never put their shows on the web. Other people did cos they liked them.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: newgabe



a classic photo of them doing it is very much their 'trademark' image...





no way man! their trademark image is soooooo the "d&d holding hands with lovely poi spirals" one ubblove



tis lovely to hear though that, even if they were still performing it regularly as part of the fantastic flameoz fireshow, they still wouldn't really mind - like i said, if you're gonna steal... wink hug wink





on the general topic:



theatrical acts are one of the hardest forms of intellectual property to protect imo.



thankfully, the arts industries tend to be fairly self-regulating on this matter, but there will always be times when that isn't effective/appropriate.



in addition to that, it means the term 'plagerism' remains a subjective one.



for the definitive discussion on this, see the rec.juggling newsgroup and the 'debate' from about 5-10 years ago relating to michael moschen, 'contact juggling', james ernest and anyone who like to play with balls without throwing them.



there are a wide range of opinions about what constitues plagerism in the circus arts to the point that (if you have very strong opinions on the matter) you might say that any act that uses acrylic balls with body rolling and palmspinning techniques and good stage lighting is a rip off.





personally, i think this is a very grey area and the cry of 'plagerism' should really only come from the person that owns the original routine.



having said that, if a routine uses the same props, the same manipulations of those props, in the same order, and the same choreography as another routine, there's nothing really left on the 'not plagerism' side of the argument is there...? shrug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:yeah cole d'er catch up mate. That IS the photo I am talking about... smile

I thought you were gonna say THE image is the flaming staff balls and crutch thrusts!


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Glumon


same stepping - somebody like this style , in some tricks you must use predefined stepping to made trick well

same arm positions - If you wat to made duo trick perfect , you must use predefined position of arms

it was only less than 1min of duo routine /!edited!/ , maybe whole performance could be another , but this is only 3min sample ..




Well maybe if we just have a little lying it will be okay? Like a white lie? I don't think so. maybe because it's only a little bit of plagiarism it's okay?

You don't need to hold the arm the staff ISN'T in in any particular position when the staff is spinning on the other side of your body. So why choose one that's identical to somebody else's routine?

You don't need to step to the side when spinning a figure of eight on one side of your body, and there's plenty of ways to step to the side WITHOUT bobbing up and down and WITHOUT the same footwork as flameoz, so why 'choose' one that exactly the same?

None of this is nessesary to the move, which is what makes it choreography and not just a sequence of tricks.

Maybe if you changed the definition of well in 'making a trick well' to 'well' meaning being like flameoz... (and really that's true anyway...)


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: newgabe


Dave and Di still do perform that routine from time to time (as FlameOz) And a classic photo of them doing it is very much their 'trademark' image...



 Written by: newgabe


yeah cole d'er catch up mate. That IS the photo I am talking about... smile



sorry gabe, i got confused mate - i couldn't work out how could it be a photo of them doing their staff routine when it was blatently shot using poi...?

i guess i'm just slow or something tongue

besides, that routine was ripped off years ago - flameoz blatently stole it off those spin psycle boys wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Blatantly poi? Tricky dick technology eh.



But now listen I have an idea ubbidea



Maybe the fire scene is going the tried and trusty route previously blazed by rock n roll.. a few years of mad individualistic creativity followed by everyonewatchingeveryoneelse's videos till copying seems the normal way to learn things. Ya know, like who'd start a rock band before they had learned to play Stairway to Heaven?



So lets just think of Dave and Di as the new Plant and Page shall we, and move right in to the tribute acts...



First there was Bjorn Again, now there's Flame Woz.

Finland can have the Rubber Bypass Duo and Austria can double up. That is, Tirasaru already do their own tribute as Tiramisu, but down the track maybe they can have FenFart as well.



wadya reckon guys?



Mind you, I have to confess up to nicking this idea from the Backfire Boys (last seen Rockin their Bodies at Hosch a Fuer.) If it's good enough for Nick Woolsey, eh...



rolleyes


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Oh yeah, and I told Grace (FlameOzGrrrrrl) about this last night. She's very upset. She wants someone to nick one of her poi routines. She's at circus school in China and needs the royalties. wink

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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entheogen
entheogen

member
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 4th Mar 2005
Total posts: 173
Posted:Well, then she'll have to be disappointed. Normally when someone steals something, he/she doesn't bother paying it. But who knows? There's some pretty strange people out there.

'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'

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_khan_
_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Member Since: 17th Nov 2004
Total posts: 768
Posted: Written by: coleman



{snip}

in addition to that, it means the term 'plagerism' remains a subjective one.



for the definitive discussion on this, see the rec.juggling newsgroup and the 'debate' from about 5-10 years ago relating to michael moschen, 'contact juggling', james ernest and anyone who like to play with balls without throwing them.



there are a wide range of opinions about what constitues plagerism in the circus arts to the point that (if you have very strong opinions on the matter) you might say that any act that uses acrylic balls with body rolling and palmspinning techniques and good stage lighting is a rip off.

{snip}









Cole raises a good point here, and it illustrates what I think the crux of the issue is, which is the difference between form and content.



Using Mr. Moschen as an example, I'd argue that he invented a form -- like the concept of using oil paint on canvas. If people playing with acrylics and body rolling is plagiarism, then every artist in the history of art who paints oil on canvas is "plagiarising" the first artist who used that technique. That idea is ridiculous. If somebody copied Mr. Moschen's "Light" routine exactly -- same moves in the same order with the same transitions, then s/he could be accused of copying the Mona Lisa. But as it is, no-one's copying the Mona Lisa, they're just using oil on canvas.



To use an example from the world of spinning, I don't believe that everyone who does flowers is ripping off "Dervishly Yers," but if someone did the same steps and body positions and the same exact moves in the same exact order with the same exact transitions then yes -- that would constitute plagiarism. But not if they just included flowers and the matrix in their routine.



The issue Meg's raised with the FlameOz routine being copied is just that -- the FlameOz routine was copied. It wasn't just a matter of "oh they did such and such a move" too. That's a pretty big distinction in my book.



[editd for extreme verbosity]

EDITED_BY: _khan_ (1160167413)


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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FireByNite
FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 8th Dec 2004
Total posts: 349
Posted:(bearing in mind i haven't seen COL6)
have just watched the link from maus up there..
Note to FlameOZ - you guys are awesome!!:)
If some one has copied some of their routine move for move, the choreography, everything - imo, they should be had up for it - ie done big time.
to copy something like that. you would have to spend a while going over vids of it, practice hard dore etc etc.
yes it looked very cool but surely people could have enough imagination to add their own style to similar moves rather than blatantly copying someone elses?
/uninformed opinion


Are you up for it?
wink;)

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Well it won;t happen.

*being done* would mean something like legal action. Can you imagine 4 people currently living in 4 different countries trying an intellectual property suit on a some people in Japan? And as Entheogen said, there's no royalties or anything in this work...(that was a joke! Has nobody laughed at my jokes?)



Flame Oz were great and were/are about as successful as anyone in this game. But the 2 I have spoken to about this just laughed about it. In a wtf way perhaps but they are sooo used to *influencing* people by now. I mean, hell, have you seen Meg's latest vid? There was a distinct crotch thrust in there! ubbloco



This here forum is like our *world court* eh. And the verdict seems to be: if you gonna practice *other people's routines* to learn from, that is great. Just don't think you'll get respect for entering them in international video competitions!

I am still interested to hear the missing voice here... the guys from Japan themselves. Have a nice day!


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: newgabe


I mean, hell, have you seen Meg's latest vid? There was a distinct crotch thrust in there! ubbloco




eek eek confused ubbloco


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:i am greatly inspired by that flame oz vid.
it's a personal all time top 10 fire vid and probably the most watched... *
if someone were to be ripped off, they cartainly chose a smokin' routine.
i hope i get the chance to thank em one day.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Sparkfire
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 10th Dec 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:I showned Vanessa (FlameOz) and she thought it was a bit cheeky. But i think they should be flattered.

To put some perspective on it: The vid was obviously shot at a psy party. Maybe they just used that routine for the opening of the show cause they were short on time to create something, they thought it was friggin fantastic and wanted to do something special for the party.
I doubt they were thinking of the COL entry when getting it together. I'd view it as a homage to the 'masters' as Gabe put it, and leave it at that. They're obviously not going to be snatching much corporate work from the Flamies. ubbrollsmile

It was probably their best footage when COL came up and was sent in accordingly and without thought.

Btw. I love the mad acid grin on one of the guys when he's having a dance with the fire fans. Bush doofs (as we call them in Oz) are where I did most of my practice and it reminds me of spinning with Stevie 'Liquiphi' at many a party (I'll remind him to trademark that grin) ubblol


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shay
stranger

Member Since: 15th Jul 2004
Total posts: 17
Posted:check this out:



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Knoxious
.

Member Since: 25th Feb 2002
Total posts: 420
Posted:Hey Shay - That's nice. What does it mean in terms of this conversation?

Hmmm... Dan I don't really think there's an exception for ripping someone's stuff. Just because you've got a gig coming up and haven't got your s**t together in time certainly isn't an excuse in my books.

Well whatever, it's happened. From what I hear it's a crap imitation anyway.

Maybe we should start a competition of who can do the best copy of a FlameOz routine :P Extra points go for the tightest lycra, fullest crotch thrusts and/or cheesiest grins!

I'd like to hear from the Japanese dudes too... if they're reading and would like to PM me I'd be most gratified.


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol

we had some trouble with plagiarism a while ago: bit more serious though: an events company was using our pics and selling anotherr company. recieved a nice fat cheque and an apology. unfortunately i don't thin thats gonna happenn here. all i can say, mr cheeseknox, is that they picked a great routine to copy biggrin well done.

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:Intresting.

As a street performer I rip off other peaples acts ALL THE TIME.

its expected, I know a lot of street performers who go and watch other shows just to see what good ideas they can 'pick up'. Peaple might know devil stick pete, he's been doing street for years and said to me 'you can steal other peaple jokes, other peaples tricks and other peaples scetches, you dont steal costume or makeup.' In this he was saying that there is a pool of material that is always being recycled, its the identity of the performer that you cannot steal. This is exactly what happened to Tepooka.

However, a street show is very difffrent from a professional act, and even when you do rip something off, you have to make it your own and do it in your own way. Another juggler i was talking too was saying how the act he did in the public show at the convention has been done by several other peaple at the same convention, and they are all happy to share it, and they all do it in diffrent ways.

Bob, the canadian adventure comedian said in his lecture on street art that its fine to copy other peaple, but its also great to do something thats all yours, so if you can develop say a grand finale on two rolla bolla juggling fire atop a 10ft ladder, then thats probibly yours, as no-one else is gonna be brave enough to copy it.

I use a boxing routeen that i learnt in portugal, i dont know who it 'belongs' too, but i know its not 'mine'. Its rude to do the same act as someone who is sharing the same pitch as you, but thats as far as it goes. Im going to get silvia riding unicycle so we can do unicycle boxing, dont you dare steal that!

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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