Forums > Social Discussion > 911 - the war on terrorism - is it fraud??

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jenster
PLATINUM Member since Oct 2002

jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly, United ...

Total posts: 57
Posted:
I think everyone should watch a film called Loose Change about the disasterous falling of the twin towers on 11th September 2001 and the events leading up to it. This film has stirred up a lot of controversy and if all the evidence is 100% true then the American government are looking in the wrong place for their 'terrorists'. They should take a look within.

Over 10 million have downloaded it for free already and it has helped gather momentum for calls for an independant investigation of the events surrounding this day.

Download it for free from this website, i think everyone should see this.

Loose Change 2nd edition


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:I was likely to agree that the voice is terrible - should have warned - but on the other hand this is a scientific video. It was produced to show architects and engineers what actually happened and why the structure collapsed.



With the second tower it's more obvious, as the plane crashed at one side of the building. The first tower got hit right in the centre and further up.



This is not so much a video to push sensational buttons, but even without all the (real life) details, one can for a moment imagine, what happened and how horrific the impact must have been.



[btw - it's a pretty recent video and this is the only 9/11 thread I could find. I had no intention to open another one]

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1182535125)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I've found that most of the conspiracy theorists point at either erroneous inconsistencies (i.e. not real inconsistencies) and irrelevant factoids. Sometimes they resort to flat-out lies.

Now, I will definately agree that Bush used these attacks to his own advantage and that much of the post-9/11 legal aftermath certainly smacks of a government using a catastrophe to institute a police state.

While I find the actions of the Bush administration to be beyond disgusting (if I were the next President, my inauguration address would be to read off a list of criminal charges against Bush and have him arrested then and there, but I won't be the next President), I do not think that Bush could have planned something this grandiose without SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE blowing a whistle.

Millions of people watched one United Airlines and one American Airlines 767 each hit the towers. There are (contrary to the claims of conspiracy theorists) thousands of eyewitnesses to an AA 757 flying low over the Patomac just before the impact.

But I do wonder if the Bush administration couldn't have prevented it if they wanted to.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:I am very likely to agree with you, Doc. I happened to watch the second impact "life" on CNN and do not believe in the US government to have set this up.

Yes, the small explosion visible, just before the second plane hits the tower is strange, hence I do not think that US intelligence planned this - at least not directly.

But what I do believe - what is my personal summary from the events, evidence and what turned out to happen afterwards, also taking that movie 9/11 by Mr. Moore into account - is that there is a great likelihood the Bush administration had certain knowledge, much as the Roosevelt administration about Pearl Harbour.

I am likely to link these two events, because they were used to take the American people to war. Which - without these events - would not have been possible. There are a lot of people who gained immense opportunity and profit from war(s) like this - and lives (to them) are just numbers and disposable.

Is it true that even if Bush would have committed a crime while in office, he could not legally be charged?

The only thing that he will never be able to experience in the rest of his life (I guess) is "peace" (of mind)... Or I will regard him as world champion in repression.

Guess the furthest I would go into "conspiracy theory" here, would be that the CIA was (partly) funding "terrorist cells" and someone somewhere turned a blind eye to all the incoming evidence... which is - I guess - what you are saying.

May they rest in peace.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gnarly Cranium
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco, USA

Total posts: 186
Posted:I saw the conspiracy film Martial Law by Alex Jones a few months ago, and I gotta say right now-- it's melodramatic, rumormongering blowhards like that [censored] that make the truth damn near impossible to ever find, much less convince anybody of. He's in it for the attention, to stir people up for the sheer fun of kicking anthills-- he throws any credibility he might have had right out the window every chance he gets. I haven't seen Loose Change, but I get the distinct impression most of the other conspiracy films are similar-- a bunch of reactionary BS piled together by people who have very little concept of actual physics, who are more interested in collecting whatever supports their ideas than actually putting together anything consistent and provable. Half of it is manipulative hearsay.

And that really, really pisses me off. Because something IS fishy about the whole situation, on so very many levels.

But you know what? In the end I'm not even sure it matters how it really happened, not that we'll ever know. The administration has certainly USED the whole damn mess for their advantage, now haven't they?? That, right out in the open, in our faces every single day, is probably the single most evil aspect of the whole situation. About as many people in our military have died in Iraq as died in those towers, and they used this to justify it. Not to mention the casualties among the cleanup crews, which are still going up, and being totally ignored. Not to mention the casualties in Afghanistan. ....And whatever casualties are going to follow from the resentment we're kicking up all over the planet.

If Bush and his buddies didn't come up with 9-11, I bet they wish they did. They get to use the constitution as toilet paper, reduce the American people to quivering jello, and rake in more money than ever before. We don't have to fold dollar bills, consult magic 8-balls, or stand on our heads to see that much.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: TheWibbler


There was definitely no obvious plane wreckage at the pentagon.




Go back and read the Popular Mechanics site. There's a photo of a chunk of fuselage with CLEAR American Airlines livery markings on it.

Actually, after reading the PM site, I have revised my opinion of the conspiracy theorists:

They're worse than "revisionists," and "uninterested in the truth."

They're LIARS, flat-out. And there are few things in this world that I loathe more than a liar.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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biggins
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

biggins

member
Location: In Bed, New Zealand

Total posts: 165
Posted: Written by: ultrahigh



hmm....sounds to me like your one those people that just stands back and allow's these elitist scumbags do what they please, thats a shame.







edited due to longer post being offtopic and in answer to a very out of date post.



in summary: you dont know me and youre wrong





its good that people are still discussing 9/11 though. fills my heart wih joy. shame we'll never no what really happened. sad what the events of 9/11 ushered in. dark times.

EDITED_BY: biggins (1182643054)


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: Gnarly Cranium

But you know what? In the end I'm not even sure it matters how it really happened, not that we'll ever know. The administration has certainly USED the whole damn mess for their advantage, now haven't they?? That, right out in the open, in our faces every single day, is probably the single most evil aspect of the whole situation.





Very well put! clap



When will ppl understand that "ordinary" men are nothing but a number in the eye of "Macchiavellists" (like most of our great leaders are).

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1182717309)


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Masked52


Masked52

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Location: Kiwi land sounds great!

Total posts: 83
Posted:OMG conspiracy! *Run*

9/11 conspiracy theorists top my list of most hated.


Fire eaters are the most conceited people. Especially when they're on fire. "Help me, save me, put me out, me, me, me..."

-Paolo the Fire Eater

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biggins
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

biggins

member
Location: In Bed, New Zealand

Total posts: 165
Posted:far out, is that top of the list as in above, mass murderers, war criminals, paedophiles, racists, wife/husband beaters, <insert list of nasty categories of humans ad nauseum> ... --> you have some very wierd values dude.



*cough*whateveeeeer*cough*



with regards to this kind of thing.both sides have an agenda, believe nothing but read both sides, look around, try and *objectively* look at who stands to gain what from whats happening and then make up your own minds.

EDITED_BY: biggins (1182772083)


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I think Masked might mean the top of the most hated conspiracy theories. Thus comparing apples with apples and leaving the oranges out of it.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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biggins
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

biggins

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Location: In Bed, New Zealand

Total posts: 165
Posted:fair enough,

i sit corrected (in my comfy armchair)

smile


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Masked52


Masked52

member
Location: Kiwi land sounds great!

Total posts: 83
Posted:Yea, what Rouge said. smile



And I got a comfier chair. :P




Non-Https Image Link


Fire eaters are the most conceited people. Especially when they're on fire. "Help me, save me, put me out, me, me, me..."

-Paolo the Fire Eater

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: biggins



with regards to this kind of thing.both sides have an agenda,





"Both" sides? There are two?



I count three at the very least.



1) The Bush Administration who would like to lie to us and say that it was caused by WMD's and terrorists in Iraq and that if we just give up all our civil rights and let King/Emperor/Messiah Bush do whatever he pleases we'll be a) more American and b) safer.



2) The Conspiracy theorists who simply want to call attention to themselves and make noise. Actually, I have a feeling that half of them don't even know what their motivations are.



3) Those of us who are interested in the truth, in making sure that it doesn't happen again, and in finding and bringing those responsible to justice.





*EDIT*



4) Those who have bigger fish to fry because they are wrongly imprisoned for being Arab, or because they are living in Darfur/Baghdad/etc. and are fearing for their own lives and thus could care less about 9/11.

EDITED_BY: Doc Lightning (1182800951)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:ummm I count one more:

5) Those who don't give a damn, are not interested in what #3 and #4 call "the truth" as long as fried fish lay on their tables today.

Unfortunately I reckon that these are the majority.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Bump smile


Talk about conspiracy theories, has anyone seen Zeigeist?

As a skeptic, Im even half convinced 911 was a CIA set up.

Watch the movie, the truth is out there.




hehe


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:ummmm yes...Zeitgeist... is that the movie where they try to convince you to believe in 3 seperate "consparicies" at once , yet ask you not to accept them as truth on the "official release" page ?

curious.....


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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:sometimes the gulibility of people actualy scares has no one every concidered what these conpiracy theorys actualy imply? can you imagin the meeting that would have to take place?


Government: We want to cause a tragedy so great the American people will blindly follow us into war... What do you think gentlemen...

Accomplice #1: Well, the Towers are a perfect choice.. It's been bombed before. We can just blame Osama again. We've been priming the American people by having him blow up our warships and our buildings in other countries.

Government: Yeah, good idea! How will we do that?

Accomplice #1: We can hire Osama to get some of his friends to fly planes into it!

Accomplice #2: Wait... I have a better idea, We can BOMB the buildings!

Accomplice #1: Well, that means placing enough bombs into two 110 story buildings. That's going to take a lot of man power and risk us being uncovered...

Accomplice #2: Yeah, but that way, youre sure to knock them down. Besides, maybe the hijackers wont make it to the target. Maybe they'll be uncovered!

Accomplice #1: But you don't need to knock them down, all you need is the horrific sight of the planes hitting the buildings. People will get the message. It's an attack on American soil. We'll also have people like the blind sheik to cover for us. We'll even put a guy on a train with evidence.

Your plan isn't perfect either, you know. Do I have to remind you of Operation Towel Pop? We already tried to embarrass Clinton by knocking it down and failed.

Accomplice #2: Yeah, our Bay of Pigs, but I say the only way they can get the message is if we knock them down.

Accomplice #1: Do not

Accomplice #2: Do too

Accomplice #1: Do not

Accomplice #2: Do too

Accomplice #1: Do not

Accomplice #2: Do too

Government: Gentlemen, gentlemen... Please... What the hell, we'll just do both! :blink: How do we do that? I mean, how do you keep explosions from showing up on TV? We're going to have to investigate this at some point. How do we cover up the scene?

Accomplice #2: But why not just knock it dow...

Government: I've made my decision. Continue...

Accomplice #2: OK.. We install charges on every floor so that after the planes hit, we blow each floor under the crash floor one by one, very fast to simulate pancaking. We'll let the building burn a while just for effect. This will also give time for the trusses to sag making it LOOK like a fire caused the building to fall.

Accomplice #1: Nice touch...

Accomplice #2: Why, thank you. smile ...We'll set a charge off in the middle of the building AFTER the top is on its way down so everyone thinks the puffs of debris coming from the windows are from the tremendous hypodermic needle like pressure blowing debris from the weakest point in the building.

Government: What about the sound of explosions? Isn't that a dead giveaway?

Accomplice #2: No problem, We'll just let them think it's normal electrical explosions like transformers blowing up or the initial concrete and steel and floors hitting the floors below.

Accomplice #1: Yeah, it could also be the steel columns snapping like twigs from the tremendous weight of the floors above... Don't worry, we have disinformation specialists in key internet forums.

Government: WOW, You guys think of everything.. What about Building 7? Can we take that out at the same time?

Accomplice #1: We wont be able to fly planes into it, that's for sure...

Accomplice #2: Leave it to me. If we set off the explosions just right, we can have one of the towers hit Building 7, missing the two next to it. After that, we can set fires on the bottom floors and let it burn for a while, you know, to make it look possible for a normal collapse. I'll call my agent in the fire department to get everyone out before we blow it. I'll figure a way to make the floors look buckled for effect as well.

Government: Amazing ... I also want to take out the Pentagon. Any suggestions?

Accomplice #1: What we'll do is hijack a plane just for effect, then fire a missile at the Pentagon. A bunker buster.

Government: But what about the people on the plane?

Accomplice #1: We'll land the plane in area 51, then shoot them all.

Government: Why not use the plane instead of the missile? That way, you take care of all the evidence at the same time... People on the highway can also see the planes hit. If you use a missile, there's going to be a lot of witnesses who saw a missile and not a plane.

Accomplice #1: Err... ah, don't worry about these small details. I have an undercover op in the DC police department who will take the names down and shot them all.

Government: How are you going to get all the people involved in this? Bush isn't exactly loved you know..

Accomplice #1: Don't worry, psych-ops will take care of the brainwashing of the American people. As for the media, we control the left and the right!

Government: GREAT! Nice work all! Lets make the target date Sept 11, 2001.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Great post Rob...You'll appreciate this story

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:before anyone gives me to much credit i didn't come up with that little script its from another site smile



and yer that sites awsome i never realise that loose change was originaly created as fiction only to be later rebranded as a factual documentory.



however that does make sence of many of the inconsitancys in loose change the most odvious been that there was no aircraft wreckage around the pentigon. I'ed always wondered how they could have posably missed all the wreckage. given i had a hard time finding a photo without wreckage in it.

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brittle
GOLD Member since May 2006

brittle

member
Location: leicester, uk

Total posts: 131
Posted:i think it was rahter strange when videos appeared on youtube and other such website that they were so quickly removed??? This could either mean that the goverment wanted them removed for being scared that it was too close to the truth, the owners were scared they would dissapear like so many others do every year or, they were comcpleate codswolap

What to do in case of fire??? LET IT BURN!

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:or maybe people thought it was offensive

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:What FiF said

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:definatly i meen the conspiricy people are basicly accuseing thousends of people goverment officals, army, figherfighters, police of ploting executeing and covering up a massive operation designed to murder 3000 people. includeing many of there own friends and coleauges.



thats a pritty sick thing to do to someone after what they went through.



and thats without even going into the fact that the theorys them selfs are basied almost compleatly on lies and fabrications.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:you edited that? bounce



there are still people who think the govenment did it. That Bush was behind it.

So he's an idiot AND a maniacal genius


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:i edit almost all my posts mainly because of my truely abismal grammer and spelling skills. meening i rarely catch all my mistakes on the first posting and have to go back and correct things as i spot them. also when i write it tends to be just a stream of thought that needs to be heavly reorginized and proof read to ensure it's borderline readable wink



curse of dislexia im afriad (why did they make that word so hard to spell) biggrin

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:off topic. I know..

Rob, I got the Google toolbar specifically because it has a spell checker that works in formats such as this. Firefox is supposed to have a spell checker too.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:just has as lisp
oh the irony


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

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Total posts: 363
Posted:yer keep planing to get it sorted but never get round to it anyways i could do with the practise smile

and whats this about a lisp? is that a browser?


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:people who can't say s properly have a lisp

smoothie=thmoothie


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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robnunchucks
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

robnunchucks

enthusiast
Location: manchester uk

Total posts: 363
Posted:sorry im not sure i follow you never mind though i think were geting abit offtopic anyways biggrin

so in an attempt to pull it back on topic

anyone out there still think 911 was pulled off by the US goverment?


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