Forums > Social Discussion > 911 - the war on terrorism - is it fraud??

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jenster
jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:
I think everyone should watch a film called Loose Change about the disasterous falling of the twin towers on 11th September 2001 and the events leading up to it. This film has stirred up a lot of controversy and if all the evidence is 100% true then the American government are looking in the wrong place for their 'terrorists'. They should take a look within.

Over 10 million have downloaded it for free already and it has helped gather momentum for calls for an independant investigation of the events surrounding this day.

Download it for free from this website, i think everyone should see this.

Loose Change 2nd edition


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jenster
jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:i forgot to add this link as part of this discussion written by John Pilger about the reasons why this could have been an inside job.



indy media


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biggins
biggins

member
Location: In Bed
Member Since: 6th Sep 2002
Total posts: 165
Posted:i tihnk your view point will depend on your situation and your education. personally i think its a load of ar53 but thats jjst my opinion *shrug* i dont trust anything that my governement tells me and believe that this is just another tool that they are using to impinge on civil liberties in many countries around the world. Independent investigation will never happen as the powers that be will not accept them or even worse will scupper them if they look like they wont be telling their side of it.

in the Uk the was a three year independent commision that looked into the use of alternative energy sources that could be used to help the UK fulfil its commitments on energy usage and climate change. the day before it was due to be published tony Bliar stood up in the house of parliment and said that he had decided that nuclear was the way to go. says it all really. i tihnk that illustrates the current government (of many countries) views on independent commisions. arrogant moron(s).


Wielding a Wooden Spoon

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ultrahigh
newbie

Member Since: 29th Sep 2006
Total posts: 7
Posted:hmm....sounds to me like your one those people that just stands back and allow's these elitist scumbags do what they please, thats a shame.

Many people in the uk are lobbying for cleaner energy production and i guess its a good thing that the uk spends 3 years independantly looking into alternatives to "dirty" energy production and im not even sure that nuclear has been confirmed as the future as yet.

besides im not sure what that has to do with the 9/11. theres so many holes in your governments explanation of the events of that day that im shocked that more people havnt called for a proper independant investigation.

looks like the mass media and your government have achieved their goals in subverting people like yourself to do nothing and accept whats happened.

what a joke the "patriot act" is.


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Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted:Tony Bliar did not stand up and say nuclear power is the way to go. He said we would realisticly need to look at using nuclear power in the short term to subsidize any short falls in power production, until its no longer needed.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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ZeroG
ZeroG

Friendly Fire Fiddler
Location: Munich
Member Since: 21st Dec 2005
Total posts: 103
Posted:OMG - this is so full of pseudo-evidence its not funny any more. Who believes this also belives Nostradamus said it and so did the Roswell Aliens ...



I also sadly think this rather supports the Rightwing Bush wackos.



Yes there were warnings for 9-11 that were ignored by officials (same for Pearl Harbour actually). But hindsight is a bliss isnt it, or call it smartassing ...



Let me just argue 2 "new evidences".

- Why did the towers collapse ? I was very surprised they did ... and discussed it with architects who were also surprised. Then I saw a TV docu explaining about the special construction ("cheap and fast") using hanging steel ceilings and making the altuitude possible. Steel melts, faster in Tower 2 that was hit second but at the edge pillar, ceiling falls down in the hit area triggering a domino-effect of ceiling falling on each other downwards.



-Why did UBL deny initially ? Oh and even though he may be lefthander as Muslim he will eat with his right hand, as left hand is the dirty one ("loopaper" - so much for how little cultural understanding is in that film - the US lefts are apparently as bad as the rights in that respect). But back to why did he deny. Believe it or not, Koran says you can only kill an enemy in Jihad AFTER you have offered him to convert to Islam. By a Islam clerical authority (which UBL is not). Now that hadnt happened. So UBL had offended the Koran ...



Of course did Bush abuse his power. Of course Iraq was a lie and a mistake. Of course Iraq was initiated by the "military industrial complex" that funded Bushs campain. Note that all Repusblican presidents of USA in the last 50 years have started a war.



But its a fact that 9-11 was done by Al Quaeda terrirists using hijacked planes. (As per the August 2001 CIA treat memo). And it took only boxcutters, an evil mindset and 19 suicide terrorits ...

A truly interesting question would be since 17 of them were Saudi citizens, why was this never made big ? Because of the Oil and Saudia might to control oil price ...



Another bad joke is that Guiliani came away as hero when walking through the rubble on live TV and "organising" the rescue - even though his decision was loony to begin with to place his bomb emergency centre bunker in Tower 4, 12th floor right next to the buildings that were highest on terrosits attack list as known from the 93 WTC bomb. Superficial Americans again ...



This film is a disgrace to the many people who lost their lives - killed by fanatics with loony ideas about an Islam and dangerous men to world peace.

These poeple need be prosecuted, fought and killed if necessary. It was right to invade Afganistan and get rid of the evil Taliban regime that harboured those terrorists. Iraq had of course nothing to do with it, had no WMD and actually Saddam was the biggest enemy of both Al Quaeda and Iran ...



Bali, Madrid, London ... the terrorists need be stopped - by adequate means that can only come from understanding and counteracting their propaganda. Stop the hatred.

But the Iraq war is yet breeding more terrorits, in that respect I agree with the message of that film. And I was flamed on another forum for writing "you'll win the war but lose the peace" to Americans in 2002 - they didnt listen and were all emotional and gungho and knew it all - like the guy who made this film, same bunch of blind folks.



Did you notice the propaganda trick in that film using the denial / cuting of of a "conspiracy preach" on live TV as evidence that the very conspiracy is actually there - and silencing crtics. Thats creation of "evidence" through itself ...



Leave Arkansas for once to get a glimpse about the world before preaching the meaning of life to the world, man ...


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jenster
jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:so how is it 9 of the 18 hijackers are alive, the bbc has interviewed them??? they obviously didnt fly those planes. They could have been remote controlled as it completely possible.

So why did building munber 7 of the trde canter fall? Why didn;t they report this?


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jenster
jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted:did you read the link i posted of an article by john pilger?

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ultrahigh
newbie

Member Since: 29th Sep 2006
Total posts: 7
Posted:your argument against this discussion focus's on probably the least important areas of the topic.



i remember the day when it happened, i wondered myself what happened to the debris of the plane that hit the pentagon!!!? there was no debris!! and according to the official explanation it vaporised!!



let me see, at the time of creating the world trade center they decided to build the tallest building in the world (at the time) that represented the strength of america's economy really cheaply, hmm....i suspect that they at least would conform to tall building regulations which help prevent the collapse of these mammoth towers through the melting of steel by using steel which is reinforced, long lasting and have a high melting point.



also if i built and took any pride in my work as an architect i would not allow anyone to cut corners when creating a building that meant and represented that much.



the jenster has a good point, 9 of the terrorists have been found alive by the bbc and they have been trying to clear their name as (what is depicted as one of the worlds greatest disasters) has been blamed on them. poor souls!!.



it is possible to control a plane remotely.



yes, bin laden worked for the cia in the 80's to create a rebel force against the russains in afghanistan and as qouted on Max Kolskegg' document -> "once your in the cia, its for life"



and from my perspective, i think that rumsfeld, cheney and the bush family are all capable of this to achieve their goals, which by in large has enabled them to invade afghanistan, iraq and probably iran next under the name of "democracy" and also fight the leftist movement and hinder civil liberties domestically (and make a whole bunch of money in the process), why not kill ten birds with one stone.

EDITED_BY: ultrahigh (1159829868)


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ZeroG
ZeroG

Friendly Fire Fiddler
Location: Munich
Member Since: 21st Dec 2005
Total posts: 103
Posted:Why the tower fell ist THE most critical question in that whole film. This film is accusing the USA / conspiracy of staging mass murder by plotting an explosion.



"they decided to build the tallest building in the world (at the time) that represented the strength of america's economy really cheaply, hmm" - if you dont understand that logic, you dont understand business. When costs are massive, people save and cut corners, not to an extent that its a danger in realistic scenarios (strom, small quakes, small fires) but not an explosion of a near fully tanked large aircraft.



The towers were a special innovative construction with hanging ceilings and an inner tube for elevators. That construction failed upon a massive fire and explosion, and Tower 2 who had a plane hit the cornerpillar failed first.



As about the identity of the terrorits - well the people in the planes died (if not where are they now?). And you can only assume what happened in those plnes and you know the passengers only from the identity trhey revealed at checkin. So it could be possible that false idnetity was used (stolen or fake passports) or that some of the accused were not part of the plot.

Still, that doesnt change the picture that a bunch of suicide loony hijacked those planes.



The abuse of the post 9-11 emotions by the Bush team was indeed shocking (note the irony in "patriot act" naming - who dares to be againt it).



Still, the assumption that USA authorities would kill their own people on such a massive scale is really loony.

Same for assuming a Congress investigation in front of whole world could be entirely manipulated.



Anyway, believe what you want to believe. But to underestimate the threat by Islamist terrorits who killed people like YOU AND ME (not like Bush and Cheney) in NYC, Bali, Madrid and will do it again wherever they can is as stupid, cynic and vicious as is the Bush politics ...


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Gomorrha


Why the tower fell ist THE most critical question in that whole film. This film is accusing the USA / conspiracy of staging mass murder by plotting an explosion.



PBS actually did an amazing job with a 2 hour NOVA special on exactly why the towers collapsed. It was actually entitled simply: Why the towers collapsed.

It has actual comprehensive links focusing solely on how all of the science linked together rather than just taking one scientific fact out of context and stretching it... "The building was made of steel, the same metal used in JFK's convertable when he was killed... think about it..."

What really bothers me is: Isn't the truth enough of a conspiracy theory on it's own?

The US government PUBLICLY and OPENLY funded terrorist organizations to inflict terror on our enemies. These same terrorist organizations attacked us. Isn't that enough to make anyone irate? Or do we need to start looking under rocks and using dream philosophy to discover stuff.

Q: The US government invaded Iraq and started a war enflaming the entire middle east against the west and killing thousands.
Average Joe: *shrug* Ah, what are ya gonna do.

Q: Dude, if you fold a $20 in the right way you can see the twin towers burning.
Average Joe: OMG! The US government is corrupt and facist!!!

I don't get it.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Agrees with NYC...




 Written by: jenster

forgot to add this link as part of this discussion written by John Pilger about the reasons why this could have been an inside job.




Odd that the article claims to have been written by Max Kolskegg. Though it does have a Pilger quote in it(which isn't about 9/11 but the current use of the word terrorism).

Was this a genuine mistake based on an inability to read or a deliberate attempt to conjure some credibility for your argument by invoking one of the most popular figures of the contemporary left?

and as for

 Written by: ultrahigh

yes, bin laden worked for the cia in the 80's to create a rebel force against the russains in afghanistan and as qouted by pilger -> "once your in the cia, its for life"




like Manuel Noriega perhaps?

Try considering the empirical facts which oh-so-obviously ridicule such nonsense?





As for the opinion of the most popular far left academic/author/cultural critic on the subject

 Written by: Noam Chomsky

On the conspiracy theories about 9/11, I'll comment, but reluctantly. There are far more important things to be concerned about, and these things can become an awful waste of time.

As for the theories, I don't think they can be taken very seriously. I think they are based on a misunderstanding of the nature of evidence, and also failure to think through the issues clearly.



http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20050131.htm
br>
And for an summary of conspiracy theories vs institutional critique see

http://www.zmag.org/parecon/conspiracy.htm
br>
by Michael Albert - founder of Z Magazine and the Parecon movement


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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jenster
jenster

member
Location: where butterflies fly
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2002
Total posts: 57
Posted: Written by:

Written by: jenster

forgot to add this link as part of this discussion written by John Pilger about the reasons why this could have been an inside job.




Odd that the article claims to have been written by Max Kolskegg. Though it does have a Pilger quote in it(which isn't about 9/11 but the current use of the word terrorism).

Was this a genuine mistake based on an inability to read or a deliberate attempt to conjure some credibility for your argument by invoking one of the most popular figures of the contemporary left?






oops it was a genuine mistake, not trying to 'conjure up credibility' . The author isn't the issue that i was trying to portray anyway. i didnt mean to mislead anyone. i happily stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out. redface


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Also agrees fully with NYC... The proven facts are scary enough already, not much need to dig further...

Question is: What are you going to do about it?

Don't get me wrong, ppl who raise awareness and spread the word are important, already one step in the direction of action. But are you, or are you not taking (necessary/democratic) measures to do something about it, or not? If the latter, don't complain about others, who sit aside and watch. shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Dream, thanks for the links, especially the one that sheds some insight into the motivations of conspiracy theorists. I'd been viewing these along the lines of "faith issues" but I like the idea of an addictive puzzle that needs to be solved, better.

Interesting idea about 1990's style feminist attitudes and conspiracy theories too. I always wondered where the *war on women* idea came from.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:There's a very good BBC documentary about the terrorism myth that's been created to keep the public scared and compliant.

The Power of Nightmares

Well worth watching, you can download it using a torrent client from:

Download TPON Parts 1 to 3


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Damn,,looks like I missed that one when they aired it here last july. And from a credible source too.

More info

Is this torrent client something I actually need to know how to use, or am I going to to go loco trying to figure it out, like when i tried to get a grip on mIRC, and eDonkey ?


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:A torrent client is a program that can use torrent files to download stuff. I use utorrent, which you can download free from here:

http://download.utorrent.com/1.6/utorrent.exe
br>
It's a tiny program and will take up very little of your computer's resources.

So once you have utorrent on your computer, download the torrent file:

http://www.mininova.org/get/401752
br>
Open it by double clicking, which should open up the utorrent window and start the download.

The three episodes are an hour each, so the download will take time! (files download faster when you're not watching smile )


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Thanks, I'll give it a shot. beerchug

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:hat bit from the artical which states people believing that "a professional demolition job" did in the towers made me choke on my tea!

*anyone* who has exposure to the demolition industry would know the amount of expolsive, the very obvious girder cutters needed to sever steel and reo concrete, plus the huge amount of wires to set the relay up. You can't get those in without someone noticing.

Yet another conspiracy theory with little evidence and lots of heresay.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Every fiber of my being instinctually suspects that the US government was, to some degree, involved with the events of 9/11. There are obvious discrepancies in the 'official story' and they require an explanation.

However...

On every other front, this administration has proven to be incalculably incompetant. Katrina relief. Iraq post-war. Economy. Border security. These clowns couldn't get an old lady across the street without screwing it up. A part of me believes. I really do. But a tinier, more logical part finds it unlikely that they could orchestrate the immense accuracy and tactics to pull off 9/11 successfully.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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_Poiboy_
_Poiboy_

bastard child of satan
Location: Raanana, Israel
Member Since: 12th Jan 2004
Total posts: 1113
Posted:some hate blogger's opinion on loose change

^ even though it's a hate blog (which i absolutely love... it's hilarious), i agree with some of the stuff there... i mean if the US government didnt care about killing thousands of people, why wouldnt they just kill that guy too? isnt he a threat to them?
also i agree that the chances someone as incompetent as george bush could pull 9/11 off without messing up.


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Yell fire!
member
Location: London
Member Since: 16th May 2003
Total posts: 151
Posted:While I too am skeptical about the conspiracy theories, I find this recurring argument about the Bush government's incompetence a little strange. You guys think that Bush and his cronies are too incompetent to pull off 9/11, yet you believe that some Arab living in a cave in Afghanistan could have pulled it off with the help of a bunch of guys trained on flight simulators???!
confused


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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:Apparently, they didn't train on flight simulators, they trained in Independent American flight schools. Apparently the flight instructors felt a little alarmed when his students weren't too concerned with learning how to land a plane...



The discrepency I'm concerned about is that the hole in the Pentagon caused by a plane was only as big as a hole left by say... a missle... And that the trail of destruction the plane left before hitting the Pentagon didn't leave any trace of a plane crash - i.e. - plane parts...


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:inform yourself

 Written by: www.popularmechanics.com

Flight 77 Debris
CLAIM: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"



Answers your question?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:There was definitely no obvious plane wreckage at the pentagon.

And YES YES YES i 100% believe that the US administration used this event for their own fraudulent reasons.

I was in san francisco the day it happened and the whole thing stunk from day 1.

I think it's important to concider the US people as having been Invaded by an enemy government. So it's not that the americans bombed themselves. It's that an invading Mafia, the administration (with their nazi links), bombed the american country.

The administration has extracted trillions of dollars from the american people, it's Grand Theft America wink


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think that post had some good information in it but was so sprinkled with liberal catch phrases that I missed them.

smile

I certainly think that specific members of the current administration used 9/11 to their own politial and personal advantage. I think that's extremely well documented nor have I heard any arguement that disagrees with that from any side including the current administration.

I'm not sure what the Nazi Mafia is doing. Are they surfing? Because that would be at least B movie worthy. And I only played GTA for the hot coffee so I don't know the details. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Isn"t the world and life just fantastically coincidental?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Simulation on the first impact... Careful watching (PG advised)




the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Thats all very pretty, but im not sure what its supposed to achieve. confused

Also, that mans voice is highly annoying and monotonous.
They should have gotten Brian Blessed to narrate it smile


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Yeah, I don't get what it's supposed to achieve either.

Furthermore I agree - THAT MAN'S VOICE IS TERRIBLE!!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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