Forums > Social Discussion > Bush gov't accused of kidnapping

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wiki article on Khaled el-Masri - a German citizen who got kidnapped by the CIA, tortured and interrogated in various CIA prisons around the planet...

To me, this is an outrage and German justice system certainly isn't working, if the the responsible CIA agents and Mr. George W. Bush is not getting arrested for kidnapping and conspiracy when touching German soil.

Diplomatic immunity? Good and valid point, but this is a fellony - certainly punisheable under US laws. Wonder how the US would react, if the BND (German military intelligence) would have done the same, vice versa...

Guess they would have invaded us... wink


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I posted this last year, but noone answered wink

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
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Total posts: 7193
Posted:it isn't a new thing for the US government to abduct a suspect, transport them to an unknow location outside of the states an hold them for interigation. they aren't on US soil therefor US law dosen't apply wink

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anna-)
Member
Location: Perth, WA
Member Since: 20th Sep 2006
Total posts: 10
Posted:But lets be honest. America can pretty much do anything they want. They have the power to intimidate any one or any country. It sucks, but that's the reality these days.

* Nothing is permenent *

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think it's interesting that when a group of Republicans (including Colin Powell) request something as controversial as the idea that the United States should not torture people, they are considered "rebels". BBC article

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:ubblol But Colin Powell IS a rebel - if my memory is accurate, he opposed Bushes politics in the end...

Besides: a new US law is about to pass congress for the interrogation of foreign suspects - maybe applicable to US citizens as well (when accused of terrorism)...

Interesting that the US will not accept the International court (Den Haag, I reckon) and threatens to liberate any American - with "appropriate force" - that would be on trial there, but has no problem whatsoever to kidnap, incarcerate and torture citizens of NATO-countries for years.

IF the suspect would have a true German name and it wouldn't be the US... hell would break loose. But in this case................................... *snores* - ah, what? *mumbles* guess he brought it on himself wink


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Aurinko
Aurinko

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Location: Amsterdam
Member Since: 1st Aug 2006
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Posted:b.t.w., there is an anti-Bush-, anti-war- and anti-everything-else-demonstration in Amsterdam 2morrow, from 1 p.m. on at the Museumsplein.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, I would like to see Bush and many members of the administration tried and convicted for their actions.

And none of this "pardon" bullcrap. The President is not above the law. He should also be PERSONALLY responsible for monetary recompensation to the tune of millions of dollars to this family and to the families of anyone else wrongly detained by the U.S. Government.

And it's time that the EU grew on a pair, organized a military, and learned to stand up to the US.


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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TotalEclipse
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Location: Nr Petersfield
Member Since: 26th Aug 2006
Total posts: 120
Posted:Agreed. The EU needs to hold (get?) firm and be a bit more close-knit than it is currently. We can't have this sort of thing happening, but unless there is a sufficient military deterrent(unfortunately...it seems that diplomacy is far from current American policy or priority), the US will always try and get away with more.

It's a shame. A country with clout like the US has could do so much for good, but instead they make war and torture random people in its name.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Point is further that he wasn't the only German citizen who got kidnapped by the CIA and detained to Guantanamo for years of interrogations, without trial.

The US-domination in the "war on terror" to me is scary and I fully agree with you, when you say that Europe needs to weld itself into a solid and steady power. The European Union unfortunately was founded more in respect of economical reasons, but (internal, or foreign) politics.

But as the community grows, sooner or later we will face a strong and firm European Union that will form an opposition and - as long as the pommies don't sabotage the mainland - the US won't be liking it.


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
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Posted:El Masri wasn't in Guantanamo!

As to the EU and foreign politics, I'm not sure that's such a good idea. Many of the citizens in a lot of member states don't want their countries' interests "sacrificed" for a common goal.

Now I won't say whether that's good or bad, but seen historically, if many nations are forced to have one nation, one army, etc, it can only go wrong.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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FireTom
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Posted:oih, I was referring to Murat Kurnaz, the other German that was detained by the US...

It's slightly offtopic, but I would like to emphasise that Europeans will not have to sacrifice their regional interests in order to form a strong international force. I well know, but strongly oppose this argument. It's simply born to make people scared and due to regional power struggle ("we will not support your international policies, IF you do not pay this and that ammount of money to solve our regional problems")

The point is that we can't simply turn back to the tribal reign, have every village participate - but we'll certainly find a way to make every serious concern be expressed and noticed. ubbloco juggle ubbidea


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
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Total posts: 4145
Posted:But the point is, right now, people don't want it. If German citizens for example had been allowed to decide on European matters, we wouldn't have the Euro, we wouldn't pay that much of our (well not mine cause I'm a student...) taxes to support "regional development" in Edinburgh (!) etc. I'm saying this without any evaluation, not claiming it's good, bad, reasonable or anything else, just a fact that a lot of people do not want to get even closer within the EU.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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FireTom
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Posted:Nonono Birgit, sorry to oppose you here on this one:

Fact is that SOME people don't like it... I am not even certain whether it's the majority or not... Fact is further (quoted by Frank'n Furter wink ) that Europe has NO alternative but to form a strong and steady alliance, otherwise it's going down down down... narrowminded backyard politicians are just riding the horse of greed, envy and fear and they are not serving their country - or even family - with that attitude.


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Posted:well. For the examples I gave, at the time all surveys at the time said it was the majority. shrug



oh, and look at all the votes on the European constitution and all that. And how countries, when the population is asked, do not want things like the Euro (Denmark, Sweden) or join the EU (Norway for example)

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1159182559)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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FireTom
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Total posts: 6650
Posted:I respect the informations and examples given, hence there is a good reason no serious political force is demanding to reverse the process... Maybe the majority has changed it's mind in the meantime?

If Europe wants to play a role in the future and finally overcome the animosities that led to a few incredible wars, the Union is a must! Despite righ and left wing extremist politicians, who are painting the devil on the wall and are phishing for votes amongst those who are incapable of acknowledging reality.

Maybe it was good that the German people were not asked (I certainly was not happy about this), because without unity, Europe would not be able to face the challenges of the 21st century IMHO... where history has proven those to be successful, who were able to form a strong and steady alliance, who were able to disregard regional issues when stepping on the international stage.

Germany will never be able to challenge the US and stand up for itself - Europe is. Same applies to all other global issues. shrug Is this so hard to understand?

But if we want to discuss pro and cons of the EU, I guess we should initiate another thread...


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
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Posted:It's not hard to understand. You don't seem to have noticed that I keep saying I'm not evaluating, just reporting what I see in people.



If people don't want to be a united Europe, they'll definitely not be united Europe that "stands up" to a superpower.



And the elections on the constitution were only last year, I'm sure people more or less think the same about it. Norway for example repeatedly voted against the EU, because their economic interests are currently very well satisfied for themselves. If I was Norwegian, I would probably vote against it, too. Likewise the Euro has always been a big big thing for Blair, one of the "if I say yes I won't be re-elected" issues that comes up every general election.



Also note that in many countries it's not the extremists, but the more "normal" parties, and the normal population, that oppose it.



This is not about the pros and cons of the EU though, just on why *I* think it's unlikely that we'll be more united and voluntarily agreeing on any major decision soon.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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FireTom
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Posted:Birgit, all appreciated, but completely offtopic

Actually I am closing shoulders with Doc, stating that a government should be able to be held responsible - ESPECIALLY if they backup the actions of their employees (CIA-agents in this particular case)... meaning that in case GWB visits Germany, he should get arrested for allegations on kidnapping two German citizens and detaining them for months and years without trial.

It doesn't matter, whether they held them in Afghanistan, or Guantanamo. They were held in US/ CIA prisons and the order came from either the Pentagon or the White House... There is no responsibility to deny.

Currently the German jurisdiction is asking the US for support rolleyes wonder what the outcome will be...


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
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Total posts: 4145
Posted:If we take into account the process against Motassadeq, who was accused of having planned the 9/11 attacks with Atta etc, expect nothing. The American officials were reluctant then to share any information that could have led to a longer conviction for one of the men responsible of killing thousands, so it would only have been reasonable to do so in the big "fight against terror". But then he ended up getting 7 years instead of a longer term, partially because witnesses were held back etc... go figure

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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Posted: Written by: FireTom


meaning that in case GWB visits Germany, he should get arrested for allegations on kidnapping two German citizens and detaining them for months and years without trial.



Well you have to be careful about that because the question is whether he's actually responsible. Because if HE'S responsible it could be argued that everyone in command superior to the agents who did the actual "arrest" (pardon the term) should be arrested.

As it happens, I do believe that the Bush government is guilty of war crimes and Geneva Convention violations. Unfortunately, it is impossible to directly implicate Bush in any of it.

Ah the joys of bureaucracy.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Posted:by the by, i've started to notice a theme with the threads FireTom makes in the Discussion section...........ubblol

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FireTom
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Posted:... tell me smile

But Doc, how can someone be president and NOT be responsible? That sounds more like Saddam to me... wink

He might not even have given the direct order, therefore you are right that he might not be guilty of conspiracy - hence he was abetting a crime by NOT releasing the suspects immediately after he got knowledge about what was going on and trying to cover it up by NOT starting immediate investigation on who has been responsible.

I still think we should arrest him, whenever we got the chance to... but this might help the Rep's win the next election, so maybe better to pardon him ONCE MORE! wink

Despite the ironical and comedian choice of words - I violently dislike govt's who support suspects to get kidnapped, held and tortured for years, even without a proper trial. This is clearly against the Geneva convention and not suitable for the US.


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JTSpinner
JTSpinner

Learnin About Burnin
Location: Michigan
Member Since: 31st Aug 2006
Total posts: 385
Posted: Written by: FireTom


... tell me smile

But Doc, how can someone be president and NOT be responsible? That sounds more like Saddam to me... wink

He might not even have given the direct order, therefore you are right that he might not be guilty of conspiracy - hence he was abetting a crime by NOT releasing the suspects immediately after he got knowledge about what was going on and trying to cover it up by NOT starting immediate investigation on who has been responsible.

Despite the ironical and comedian choice of words - I violently dislike govt's who support suspects to get kidnapped, held and tortured for years, even without a proper trial. This is clearly against the Geneva convention and not suitable for the US.



FireTom, allow me to place another quote in here from the article that you placed in your first post. It references an article that was in the New York Times of June 2, 2006.
"The BND (German intelligence agency) declared on June 1, 2006 that it had known of el-Masri's seizure 16 months before Germany was officially informed of his mistaken arrest. Germany had previously claimed that it didn't know of el-Masri's abduction until his return to the country in May 2004 [19]".

Now if we follow the reasoning that since George Bush is the President of the US then he is directly responsible for the kidnapping and should be arrested and tried, it must be added that since the BND knew about this, the President of Germany should also be arrested and put on Trial because after all, isn't she responsible for the actions of any Organization within the Government of Germany??

And in your own words: "I violently dislike govt's who support suspects to get kidnapped, held and tortured for years, even without a proper trial. This is clearly against the Geneva convention and not suitable for the US" (and I add this to it) "or any other country".


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:I certainly agree with you and hove no problem in extending my vow to the German chancellerette, Mrs. Merkel.

Even if we assume, that presidents and chancellors have NOT been informed properly - responsibility remains.

BND (CIA's counterpart in Germany) learned the facts WAY before Germany was OFFICIALLY informed and they played along. The German justice system is still playing along, as they are working VERY slow on these two cases. Nobody is really keen on setting the records straight.

I'm pretty curious what kind of compensation the two abducted German citizens will receive... dollar a day? For getting tortured? umm Could you imagine yourself getting kidnapped by a state agency and betrayed for a couple of years of your life - when your only offence is having the wrong NAME and being in the wrong place at the wrong time?


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