Forums > Social Chat > Spinners Vs Jugglers
Login/Join to Participateenthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
When I started juggling there was no such thing as spinners, or if there was nobody had realised yet.
There were diffrent types of juggler, contact jugglers, poi, staff, cigar boxes.....it all came under the general heading of "Juggling"
I was surprised when Poi and Staff people began to claim a diffrent title. I heard people saying "It's more of a spinners workshop/event" or "It's more for jugglers"
I guess it come hand in hand with Poi and Staff maturing as disciplines, they have come so far recently. When I started there really wasn't much to learn, no Wibbling or antispin or hyperloops and any contact move made you an acknoledged master
What is the diffrence between jugglers and spinners?
Ps- the title of this thread wasn't meant to indicate that they were in opposition or fighting
When I started juggling there was no such thing as spinners, or if there was nobody had realised yet.
There were diffrent types of juggler, contact jugglers, poi, staff, cigar boxes.....it all came under the general heading of "Juggling"
I was surprised when Poi and Staff people began to claim a diffrent title. I heard people saying "It's more of a spinners workshop/event" or "It's more for jugglers"
I guess it come hand in hand with Poi and Staff maturing as disciplines, they have come so far recently. When I started there really wasn't much to learn, no Wibbling or antispin or hyperloops and any contact move made you an acknoledged master
What is the diffrence between jugglers and spinners?
Ps- the title of this thread wasn't meant to indicate that they were in opposition or fighting
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
@ dave 
cole. x
@ dave cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,191 posts
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,191 posts
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Posted:
Actually do you mind if i just leave that one to you Neon?
Written by: Neon_Shaolin
Cole: If you keep attacking our predeliction for innuendo, Maus and I will be forced to beat you off.
Actually do you mind if i just leave that one to you Neon?
GOLD Member
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Posted:
Fine by me! Never thought you were one for violence...
Cole: Peace? x
Fine by me! Never thought you were one for violence...
Cole: Peace? x
"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
what, no more smut disguised as threats of violence?
how will i get through my days in the office...?
besides, my comment was never meant as an attack, it was just an observation - i like to watch...
[dammit! now i'm doing it
]
cole. x
what, no more smut disguised as threats of violence?
how will i get through my days in the office...?
besides, my comment was never meant as an attack, it was just an observation - i like to watch...
[dammit! now i'm doing it
]cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
GOLD Member
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
hehe, 'Member' huhuh
6,120 posts
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Posted:
It's infectious, like thrush. Don't try to fight it. (Though it's not meant to turn all of you red!)
I dunno how you will get through your day. Do some productive? Like work? *cough*
Or juggling? I dunno, something involving balls anyway.
I know it was never meant as an attack. Just me being hypersensitive. But. Never give up, never surrender...
Dave. x
It's infectious, like thrush. Don't try to fight it. (Though it's not meant to turn all of you red!)
I dunno how you will get through your day. Do some productive? Like work? *cough*
Or juggling? I dunno, something involving balls anyway.
I know it was never meant as an attack. Just me being hypersensitive. But. Never give up, never surrender...
Dave. x
"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock
SILVER Member
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England
Hitman
985 posts
Location: Gloucester England
Posted:
PEOPLE PEOPLE i think we are forgetting the true enemy the damn unicyclist who rides though your practise area and knocks your poi or makes you drop your cascade...
This is were i have a identy mess to
I am a juggler, diabloist, contact juggler, staffer, poi spinner, devilsticker etc the list goes on.... I have been called a hippy many a time etc
Now i have a mess lets all blame unicyclists
PEOPLE PEOPLE i think we are forgetting the true enemy the damn unicyclist who rides though your practise area and knocks your poi or makes you drop your cascade...
This is were i have a identy mess to
I am a juggler, diabloist, contact juggler, staffer, poi spinner, devilsticker etc the list goes on.... I have been called a hippy many a time etc
Now i have a mess lets all blame unicyclists
he he i am mike the amazing gloscircus person who is mike.
Officaly an exception to the Poi Boys are Girls Thing
Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
1,019 posts
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.
1,019 posts
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.
Posted:
I think your definition of a Numbers Juggler is somewhat incorrect. Numbers juggler = a juggle who juggles 7+ objects. Often trying to get just a flash of higher numbers.
Many numbers jugglers = instant jugglers.
Geeky jugglers are people like Ben Beever, who has written a book on siteswap (he has a maths degree).
Peter Bone is a through and through numbers juggler. He's probably a "geeky numbers juggler" too, as he analyses and does some stupidly complex siteswaps!
I don't want to analyse juggling mathematically. I look at the numbers and all that tells me is where to throw a ball. 1 = pass, 2 = hold, odds cross, evens don't. To me knwoing that doesn't seem geeky, looking at notation to tell me what to do is just helpful!
Written by: the boy g
Understanding and appreciating siteswap makes you a geeky numbers juggler, not being able to do seven balls. Siteswap is pretty simple to learn but it takes a certain sort of person to want to learn how to analyse juggling mathematicaly.
Not all of us have the time and patience to learn seven balls, but we can still be geeky numbers jugglers, just like you can be a spinner without being able to do the most advanced moves
Sorry Lemonkey- You're in denial but it's alright. We're there for you if you want to come out as a juggler
I think your definition of a Numbers Juggler is somewhat incorrect. Numbers juggler = a juggle who juggles 7+ objects. Often trying to get just a flash of higher numbers.
Many numbers jugglers = instant jugglers.
Geeky jugglers are people like Ben Beever, who has written a book on siteswap (he has a maths degree).
Peter Bone is a through and through numbers juggler. He's probably a "geeky numbers juggler" too, as he analyses and does some stupidly complex siteswaps!
I don't want to analyse juggling mathematically. I look at the numbers and all that tells me is where to throw a ball. 1 = pass, 2 = hold, odds cross, evens don't. To me knwoing that doesn't seem geeky, looking at notation to tell me what to do is just helpful!
Willy - is bad for your health...
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
do me and dev kev cross the divide with poigling?
juggle and spin at the same time (the juggling's the technical part )
I just like playing love juggling and love staff and still trying to breed the 2
do me and dev kev cross the divide with poigling?
juggle and spin at the same time (the juggling's the technical part )I just like playing love juggling and love staff and still trying to breed the 2
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
But what about the jugglers who sit around and drink tea talking about hour glasses? They aren't really geeky number jugglers because they don't stand around for hours - they need a tea and biscuit break at least every 15minutes!! 
Written by: the boy g
There are diffrent types of juggler though, you see it at any big convention-
the geeky "numbers" jugglers who all do maths/physics and stand for hours on end in the hall trying to get that elusive 97531 in geeky T-shirts.
the French Artiste type, often in white and fond of contact juggling and diabolo
And the dreadlocked hippy spinners getting mashed outside in the sun.
These stereotypes are obviously not universal- and not meant to offend anyone but I think contain a grain of truth.
I know which I am
But what about the jugglers who sit around and drink tea talking about hour glasses? They aren't really geeky number jugglers because they don't stand around for hours - they need a tea and biscuit break at least every 15minutes!!
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
member
90 posts
90 posts
Posted:
I'm a juggler, but I heartily approve of spinning. Admittedly there is a bit of self-interest underpinning this opinion - there are a few attractive females who do poi at my local club. One night we went onto a bit of grass at the side of the building and the people who could do fire torches went through some routines. It was superb. Then someone did fire poi, and that was pretty damn cool as well. On the siteswap issue, it's of little use to me because I'm really crap at maths. In any case, I like learning by the rhythm and general "feel" of the patterns. I'm aware that many other jugglers prefer to learn by siteswap, I'm cool with that.
I'm a juggler, but I heartily approve of spinning. Admittedly there is a bit of self-interest underpinning this opinion - there are a few attractive females who do poi at my local club. One night we went onto a bit of grass at the side of the building and the people who could do fire torches went through some routines. It was superb. Then someone did fire poi, and that was pretty damn cool as well. On the siteswap issue, it's of little use to me because I'm really crap at maths. In any case, I like learning by the rhythm and general "feel" of the patterns. I'm aware that many other jugglers prefer to learn by siteswap, I'm cool with that.
enthusiast
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
242 posts
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.
Posted:
The difference between juggling and spinning is the space required to practice and therefore have fun in.
Jugglers tend to be a little more discerning about where they want to practice. ie. Not on a slope, not with dirt on the ground, not in high winds, not with the tails of poi flapping in their faces, etc.
This is why Spitz is a great place for spinning, but most ball jugglers and contact jugglers grumble.
I do generally encourage spinning as it is a gate way art into the more rewarding and hardcore art that is juggling.
The difference between juggling and spinning is the space required to practice and therefore have fun in.
Jugglers tend to be a little more discerning about where they want to practice. ie. Not on a slope, not with dirt on the ground, not in high winds, not with the tails of poi flapping in their faces, etc.
This is why Spitz is a great place for spinning, but most ball jugglers and contact jugglers grumble.
I do generally encourage spinning as it is a gate way art into the more rewarding and hardcore art that is juggling.
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
I can actually spin Poi and Staff to a competant degree, I know some contact moves and wraps. I still consider myself a juggler through and through because I put a lot more time into juggling (especially of late).
the lighting at Spitz is terrible- unless you have glo-balls it's really hard.
On Siteswap;
I used to think siteswap was the bane of juggling, like Jason garfield does (though I'm ashamed to have ever held the same opinion as Jason Garfield on anything). I spent years juggling just 3 balls and doing penguins, contact integration moves, kick-ups, behind the back throws and learning to dance around the pattern. It was more fun to learn and more fun to watch than trying to emulate a machiene by standing still and trying to hold seven balls in the air at once. It's boring for an audience watching someone do siteswap patterns as they all start to look the same. Hell I can't tell the diffrence half the time.
But then siteswap creeps up on you..........
at some point you hit the wall and want to learn more tricks. And it is so satisfying getting another ball in the air. it's hard to explain the allure to non-jugglers, but siteswap is like heroin. Trying to get a particular pattern to work I stand there and say the numbers as I throw each ball. I know when I threw a ball too high or not high enough because it lands off the beat, I make a mental note of it and try to get it right the next time. And then...out of the blue...everthing falls into place and the machiene works. The balls trace out their dance perfectly as you stand there, making it happen and watching at the same time. It's addictive. Very addictive.
I still juggle three balls and dance about but these days it's just to warm up for the hardcore juggling.
I can only juggle 5 balls but I think of myself as a numbers juggler in training.
I can do ((6x 4x),(2x 4x))* and (9, 1, 5, 1)
I'm working on ((6x 4)) and ((6 6),(2, 6x))*
I hope I got that siteswap annotation right.
I can actually spin Poi and Staff to a competant degree, I know some contact moves and wraps. I still consider myself a juggler through and through because I put a lot more time into juggling (especially of late).
the lighting at Spitz is terrible- unless you have glo-balls it's really hard.
On Siteswap;
I used to think siteswap was the bane of juggling, like Jason garfield does (though I'm ashamed to have ever held the same opinion as Jason Garfield on anything). I spent years juggling just 3 balls and doing penguins, contact integration moves, kick-ups, behind the back throws and learning to dance around the pattern. It was more fun to learn and more fun to watch than trying to emulate a machiene by standing still and trying to hold seven balls in the air at once. It's boring for an audience watching someone do siteswap patterns as they all start to look the same. Hell I can't tell the diffrence half the time.
But then siteswap creeps up on you..........
at some point you hit the wall and want to learn more tricks. And it is so satisfying getting another ball in the air. it's hard to explain the allure to non-jugglers, but siteswap is like heroin. Trying to get a particular pattern to work I stand there and say the numbers as I throw each ball. I know when I threw a ball too high or not high enough because it lands off the beat, I make a mental note of it and try to get it right the next time. And then...out of the blue...everthing falls into place and the machiene works. The balls trace out their dance perfectly as you stand there, making it happen and watching at the same time. It's addictive. Very addictive.
I still juggle three balls and dance about but these days it's just to warm up for the hardcore juggling.
I can only juggle 5 balls but I think of myself as a numbers juggler in training.
I can do ((6x 4x),(2x 4x))* and (9, 1, 5, 1)
I'm working on ((6x 4)) and ((6 6),(2, 6x))*
I hope I got that siteswap annotation right.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
According to Answers.com
jug·gler
n.
1. One that juggles objects or performs other tricks of manual dexterity.
2. One that uses tricks, deception, or fraud.
spin·ning
n.
1. The process of making fibrous material into yarn or thread.
2. The act of fishing with a light rod and a reel having a bail or similar device that guides the line around a stationary spool and that can be disengaged to let the line run freely, as when casting. Also called spin casting, spin fishing.
...Personally, I think I'm in the performs tricks of manual dexterity category rather than the making fibrous material into yarn ...
But maybe thats just me.
According to Answers.com
jug·gler
n.
1. One that juggles objects or performs other tricks of manual dexterity.
2. One that uses tricks, deception, or fraud.
spin·ning
n.
1. The process of making fibrous material into yarn or thread.
2. The act of fishing with a light rod and a reel having a bail or similar device that guides the line around a stationary spool and that can be disengaged to let the line run freely, as when casting. Also called spin casting, spin fishing.
...Personally, I think I'm in the performs tricks of manual dexterity category rather than the making fibrous material into yarn ...
But maybe thats just me.
Not a spinner!
BRONZE Member
member
154 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
member
154 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Posted:
i'm going through an identity crisis!
i used to be a through and through juggler (though only average), hated poi with avengance and was unaware of 1 staff, let alone 2/3/4 staff and contact.
and then i went to the JUGGLING convention up the road in bodmin and did a bit of contact, a bit of double staff, learnt 5 balls (multiplex cheat)
now, i haven't juggled for a week, and before that hour or so it was another week. i seem t5o spend all my time doing contact staff and doubles. i still don't do much poi and have little nterest.
my theory is because:
1)when drunk juggling = diffficult and annoying
2)when drunk staff = less pain when burnt/hit & dance like a twat
3) staff = warmth, even when not lit.
4) juggling = cold, fumbling hands, and picking up from floor.
theres more reasons, but i want to eat breakfast then hitch over to gwithian,
i'm going through an identity crisis!
i used to be a through and through juggler (though only average), hated poi with avengance and was unaware of 1 staff, let alone 2/3/4 staff and contact.
and then i went to the JUGGLING convention up the road in bodmin and did a bit of contact, a bit of double staff, learnt 5 balls (multiplex cheat)
now, i haven't juggled for a week, and before that hour or so it was another week. i seem t5o spend all my time doing contact staff and doubles. i still don't do much poi and have little nterest.
my theory is because:
1)when drunk juggling = diffficult and annoying
2)when drunk staff = less pain when burnt/hit & dance like a twat
3) staff = warmth, even when not lit.
4) juggling = cold, fumbling hands, and picking up from floor.
theres more reasons, but i want to eat breakfast then hitch over to gwithian,
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,895 posts
Location: Cambridge UK
Posted:
The major difference is the difference in focus, I think. When you're trying to learn something new/get something perfect with juggling, you have to watch the balls going in the air: that's your point of reference.
While your learning something new with spinning, where you hit yourself when it messes up, and your shadow/reflection are your main points of reference. When your trying to get something perfect/fluid you just have to sit there and practise, but you don't have to pay so much attention, so you get to chat to people while you're doing it.
Just my experiences in local meets tends to be that practising jugglers aren't very chatty, while practising spinners are. You don't have to be a great spinner to close your eyes while spinning, but you have to be a pretty solid juggler to close your eyes while juggling.
Hence spinning meets=everybody's very chatty, juggling meets=people only chatty when not juggling
I reckon (feel free to correct me on this)
The major difference is the difference in focus, I think. When you're trying to learn something new/get something perfect with juggling, you have to watch the balls going in the air: that's your point of reference.
While your learning something new with spinning, where you hit yourself when it messes up, and your shadow/reflection are your main points of reference. When your trying to get something perfect/fluid you just have to sit there and practise, but you don't have to pay so much attention, so you get to chat to people while you're doing it.
Just my experiences in local meets tends to be that practising jugglers aren't very chatty, while practising spinners are. You don't have to be a great spinner to close your eyes while spinning, but you have to be a pretty solid juggler to close your eyes while juggling.
Hence spinning meets=everybody's very chatty, juggling meets=people only chatty when not juggling
I reckon
(feel free to correct me on this) Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant
Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.
'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi
Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
1,019 posts
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.
1,019 posts
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.
Posted:
I've not been to a Spinning meet, but you're right about juggling meets! When juggling, a juggler seems in a word of their own, putting all their concentration into their art. Often only realising someone is watching when their club hits them... then they just apologise and get back to juggling!
Except when passing. That's so social!
Written by: LazyAngel
Hence spinning meets=everybody's very chatty, juggling meets=people only chatty when not juggling
I reckon
I've not been to a Spinning meet, but you're right about juggling meets! When juggling, a juggler seems in a word of their own, putting all their concentration into their art. Often only realising someone is watching when their club hits them... then they just apologise and get back to juggling!
Except when passing. That's so social!
Willy - is bad for your health...
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
My favourite part of this thread so far was the I'm every Woman, Chaka Khan video posted by Cole
Other than that, I have nothing of importance to contribute to this discussion, please continue
xx
My favourite part of this thread so far was the I'm every Woman, Chaka Khan video posted by Cole
Other than that, I have nothing of importance to contribute to this discussion, please continue
xx Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,191 posts
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Carpal \'Tunnel
4,191 posts
Location: Sihanoukville, cambodia
Posted:
Written by: jo_rhymes
My favourite part of this thread so far was the I'm every Woman, Chaka Khan video posted by Cole
Precision instrument of speed and aromatics
240 posts
Location: Vienna
240 posts
Location: Vienna
Posted:
As far as I am concerned, if props like Diablo can be considered juggling (which it is by the WJF), then the term has clearly extended beyond the art of keeping multiple objects in the air, and now signifies something to do with the skillful and coordinated movement of objects with human physical dexterity.
If this is the case, then skills like staff and poi playing, as well as devil stick and even astrojax (Ugh).
I think spinning is an appropriate word for the kind of poi and staff playing that is more closely related to dancing then techincal skill. But, certainly with staff, when you get into complex throws or contact, it becomes more than spinning and I would categorise it as juggling.
For me, spinning seems a dismissive term that doesn't acknowledge the techincal skill involved ... but I accept that many people are happy with the term and the differentiation it gives between them and more conventional juggling.
As far as I am concerned, if props like Diablo can be considered juggling (which it is by the WJF), then the term has clearly extended beyond the art of keeping multiple objects in the air, and now signifies something to do with the skillful and coordinated movement of objects with human physical dexterity.
If this is the case, then skills like staff and poi playing, as well as devil stick and even astrojax (Ugh).
I think spinning is an appropriate word for the kind of poi and staff playing that is more closely related to dancing then techincal skill. But, certainly with staff, when you get into complex throws or contact, it becomes more than spinning and I would categorise it as juggling.
For me, spinning seems a dismissive term that doesn't acknowledge the techincal skill involved ... but I accept that many people are happy with the term and the differentiation it gives between them and more conventional juggling.
Not a spinner!
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
No way dude!! Fair I only really do 3 ball juggling because it is so versatile but I don't need to look a the balls I can hold a sensible conversation.... well OK maybe not a SENSIBLE conversation but I can make my mouth make corresponding noises to those my ears hear
I just love object manipulation...making stuff do what I want... (crawls back to his doomsday machine)
Written by: LazyAngel
The major difference is the difference in focus, I think. When you're trying to learn something new/get something perfect with juggling, you have to watch the balls going in the air: that's your point of reference.
While your learning something new with spinning, where you hit yourself when it messes up, and your shadow/reflection are your main points of reference. When your trying to get something perfect/fluid you just have to sit there and practise, but you don't have to pay so much attention, so you get to chat to people while you're doing it.
Just my experiences in local meets tends to be that practising jugglers aren't very chatty, while practising spinners are. You don't have to be a great spinner to close your eyes while spinning, but you have to be a pretty solid juggler to close your eyes while juggling.
Hence spinning meets=everybody's very chatty, juggling meets=people only chatty when not juggling
I reckon
No way dude!! Fair I only really do 3 ball juggling because it is so versatile but I don't need to look a the balls I can hold a sensible conversation.... well OK maybe not a SENSIBLE conversation but I can make my mouth make corresponding noises to those my ears hear
I just love object manipulation...making stuff do what I want... (crawls back to his doomsday machine)
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
member
101 posts
101 posts
Posted:
personally i dont care what its called. spinning is like twirling which is what you do when doing basic staff and poi. advanced moves seem more than just spinning a stick. i consider diabolo juggling, you can juggle them, same as devil sticks, and i suppose staffs too. who cares it fun!
personally i dont care what its called. spinning is like twirling which is what you do when doing basic staff and poi. advanced moves seem more than just spinning a stick. i consider diabolo juggling, you can juggle them, same as devil sticks, and i suppose staffs too. who cares it fun!
SILVER Member
Member
77 posts
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member
77 posts
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Posted:
I do both and enjoy them equally. so I don't particularly care whether the events for jugglers or spinners, they're both for ME!!
I do both and enjoy them equally. so I don't particularly care whether the events for jugglers or spinners, they're both for ME!!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
*bump* under the impression of recent events and topics.
IMO spinning elevated heeps under the influx of juggling. I would even go as far as to say that "contact spinning" was fuelled by jugglers more than ever by any spinner...
Spinning is still not fully recognized by juggling events like the EJC - and I think there is a good reason for it.
Sure, we could "juggle" Poi and Staff but usually we don't. And Diabolo... well, as I see it the ultimate goal for a 'Diabolist' is to work with multiple Diaboli (and throw them up in the air) - which is not necessarily the case with spinning.
So IF 'we' as spinners would like to see more recognition from the Jugglers' world, I reckon that people like Yuta, Dai, Ronan, Meg - name the hall of Poi fame - need to go on stages of inter/national conventions more than they already do - and this in particular without the use of fire (which can be determined as a tacky feature by a serious juggler).
(Only) this way jugglers will finally acknowledge the technical pretense of spinning...
*bump* under the impression of recent events and topics.
IMO spinning elevated heeps under the influx of juggling. I would even go as far as to say that "contact spinning" was fuelled by jugglers more than ever by any spinner...
Spinning is still not fully recognized by juggling events like the EJC - and I think there is a good reason for it.
Sure, we could "juggle" Poi and Staff but usually we don't. And Diabolo... well, as I see it the ultimate goal for a 'Diabolist' is to work with multiple Diaboli (and throw them up in the air) - which is not necessarily the case with spinning.
So IF 'we' as spinners would like to see more recognition from the Jugglers' world, I reckon that people like Yuta, Dai, Ronan, Meg - name the hall of Poi fame - need to go on stages of inter/national conventions more than they already do - and this in particular without the use of fire (which can be determined as a tacky feature by a serious juggler).
(Only) this way jugglers will finally acknowledge the technical pretense of spinning...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
I think part of it may be the perception of difficulty as the number of objects being manipulated exceeds the number of hands you're using... Juggling 3 balls with two hands, well that's harder than 2 balls with 2 hands. 5 balls with 2 hands is even harder. 2 poi with... 2 hands? That just about breaks even! But I'd say each poi has at least two components that are manipulated differently - the head, and the cord. Thus two poi in two hands is four components in two hands. Sure basic poi spinning treats the head and cord as one thing and there isn't much variation, but you don't have to do poi for long before you start breaking it down and getting into the more complex patterns. Juggling wouldn't be considered a real skill if you only looked at the 3-ball cascade...
I think part of it may be the perception of difficulty as the number of objects being manipulated exceeds the number of hands you're using... Juggling 3 balls with two hands, well that's harder than 2 balls with 2 hands. 5 balls with 2 hands is even harder. 2 poi with... 2 hands? That just about breaks even! But I'd say each poi has at least two components that are manipulated differently - the head, and the cord. Thus two poi in two hands is four components in two hands. Sure basic poi spinning treats the head and cord as one thing and there isn't much variation, but you don't have to do poi for long before you start breaking it down and getting into the more complex patterns. Juggling wouldn't be considered a real skill if you only looked at the 3-ball cascade...
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
FireTom, I see your point about fire... but with poi being fuelled ever more by patterns... how could you look magnificent without a light source? To the naked and reasonably untrained eye a dozen different hybrids or antispin patterns would all look reasonably similar...
And Mucky, thanks for the idea of the head and cord being manipulated separately, while I'd always practiced and manipulated with this in mind it had never really jumped out at me as a way of explaining poi... but would it not technically be 6 points?? The hand, the head and the cord? I may be wrong...
But I'd see antispin patterns being a manipulation of the hand and head while things involving isolations (hybrids and whatnot) would be an isolation of the hand, head and cord?
I'm really not certain on that, this is the first thought I've really given to it, so I'd like some feedback on it to confirm or deny!
FireTom, I see your point about fire... but with poi being fuelled ever more by patterns... how could you look magnificent without a light source? To the naked and reasonably untrained eye a dozen different hybrids or antispin patterns would all look reasonably similar...
And Mucky, thanks for the idea of the head and cord being manipulated separately, while I'd always practiced and manipulated with this in mind it had never really jumped out at me as a way of explaining poi... but would it not technically be 6 points?? The hand, the head and the cord? I may be wrong...
But I'd see antispin patterns being a manipulation of the hand and head while things involving isolations (hybrids and whatnot) would be an isolation of the hand, head and cord?
I'm really not certain on that, this is the first thought I've really given to it, so I'd like some feedback on it to confirm or deny!
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
MNS, I'm still a rank beginner so don't take my word for it! I tend to describe the head and cord separately because of their vastly different properties. The handles I tend to consider either part of the cord or part of the "poi" as a whole, but not a distinct entity. To use club swinging as an example, it is unrealistic to consider the handles as being separate from the head, because through the handle, you manipulate the head directly; with poi, you only manipulate the handle directly - the head and cord are indirectly manipulated by using secondary factors like centripetal force, gravity, and velocity. Hold a club out straight, and it stays straight. Hold poi out, it flops. The parallel with traditional toss juggling is that the object in the air is manipulated indirectly by gravity, the speed at which you've thrown it, and so forth; while you have direct control of the objects in your hands, secondary forces are necessary to make toss juggling work (namely gravity) - the same is true of poi.
I see different patterns as different functions of direct manipulation of the handle and indirect manipulation of the head and cord; antispin flowers and isolations both involve rotations of the handle using centripetal force to keep the head and cord fully extended. Wraps, on the other hand, can be used to manipulate the cord directly (while still holding the handle, or using it as a second weighted head that I consider part of the cord) while using the head in a secondary capacity. And of course catching the head or using the head for contact moves involve manipulating that directly, with perhaps the cord taking on secondary functions.
Naturally there are tons of moves that could fit within a number of these concepts; I'm only using it to illustrate that technical poi spinning can be much more complex than assuming the number of objects is equal to the number of hands.
Club swingers and staffers, you're on your own!
EDITED_BY: Mucky (1219573401)
MNS, I'm still a rank beginner so don't take my word for it! I tend to describe the head and cord separately because of their vastly different properties. The handles I tend to consider either part of the cord or part of the "poi" as a whole, but not a distinct entity. To use club swinging as an example, it is unrealistic to consider the handles as being separate from the head, because through the handle, you manipulate the head directly; with poi, you only manipulate the handle directly - the head and cord are indirectly manipulated by using secondary factors like centripetal force, gravity, and velocity. Hold a club out straight, and it stays straight. Hold poi out, it flops. The parallel with traditional toss juggling is that the object in the air is manipulated indirectly by gravity, the speed at which you've thrown it, and so forth; while you have direct control of the objects in your hands, secondary forces are necessary to make toss juggling work (namely gravity) - the same is true of poi.
I see different patterns as different functions of direct manipulation of the handle and indirect manipulation of the head and cord; antispin flowers and isolations both involve rotations of the handle using centripetal force to keep the head and cord fully extended. Wraps, on the other hand, can be used to manipulate the cord directly (while still holding the handle, or using it as a second weighted head that I consider part of the cord) while using the head in a secondary capacity. And of course catching the head or using the head for contact moves involve manipulating that directly, with perhaps the cord taking on secondary functions.
Naturally there are tons of moves that could fit within a number of these concepts; I'm only using it to illustrate that technical poi spinning can be much more complex than assuming the number of objects is equal to the number of hands.
Club swingers and staffers, you're on your own!
EDITED_BY: Mucky (1219573401)
Bouncing Baby Pipe!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Mucky - I side you that without a light source, the patterns will not be noticed (as much)... yet this is one of the things that separate Juggling and Spinning.
Yet club swinging is accepted in the juggling world (2 objects - 2 hands); devil stick (1 object manipulated by 2 hand extensions)... accepted; diabolo (in the beginners stage not even released into the air)... accepted; boxes (well, a class of its own)... accepted...
Many of these have long traditions in the artists/ jugglers realm - (fire)spinning is "new". I guess the jugglers just need some more time and 'we' need a little more persistance.
Poor staffers...
Mucky - I side you that without a light source, the patterns will not be noticed (as much)... yet this is one of the things that separate Juggling and Spinning.
Yet club swinging is accepted in the juggling world (2 objects - 2 hands); devil stick (1 object manipulated by 2 hand extensions)... accepted; diabolo (in the beginners stage not even released into the air)... accepted; boxes (well, a class of its own)... accepted...
Many of these have long traditions in the artists/ jugglers realm - (fire)spinning is "new". I guess the jugglers just need some more time and 'we' need a little more persistance.
Poor staffers...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Double post:
1) May I suggest to move this thread from Chat to Discussion?
2) There is a highly interesting thread at the JugglingDB, started by Bluecat, that will help to understand (and maybe to overcome) the resentment spinners are facing at Juggling events like the EJC...
Whaddaya think about that one?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1219661000)
Double post:
1) May I suggest to move this thread from Chat to Discussion?
2) There is a highly interesting thread at the JugglingDB, started by Bluecat, that will help to understand (and maybe to overcome) the resentment spinners are facing at Juggling events like the EJC...
Written by : Plumsie
I have to be honest and say I would be just as happy with no fire show.
A good routine has no need for fire and I am there to see the performance not the prop. I am of the same opinion with the majority of glow routines, people seem to do the same tricks but because it is dark you can't see what they are doing.
I'm quite happy to see acts trying something different but the prop should not get in the way of the performance.
Seeing someone do backcrosses with fire is dull because you can't tell what they are doing. There may be pretty trails of light to follow but I still find it deeply uninspiring.
Maybe this is because I have only seen fire acts that you would consider to be mediocre or maybe I am just far to cynical.
I aslo disagree with them for environmental reasons. I would hate to think how much paraffin was used during EJC for all the fire play, fire breathing and fire show.
I know a lot of the people who seem to be the most interested in fire are the people that think of themselves as hippies and want to save the planet and then they waste all those resources.
((...) please find more at the link provided)
Written by : Little Paul
From what I understand of the fire performance scene, it's very different from the indoor performance scene, and many of the high quality acts (High
quality in the sense that they're not hiding behind the prop, or even behind the technique, but have the stage presence and theatrical side of it sorted as well) tend to be focused on the "30 minute self contained show" style of performance.
Indoor performing jugglers tend towards the "6
minute variety piece" - (I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides)
Whaddaya think about that one?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1219661000)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Rum-Swilling Combustioneer
227 posts
Location: Macungie, PA, USA
Posted:
FireTom, just from my perspective as somebody who's new to poi, and who has always wanted to juggle (but still can't do more than the bare basics), I see as many similarities as differences, and I agree that if things like cigar boxen, hat manipulation, and things of that specialized nature are accepted by "traditionalists," then spinning should follow.
BTW, the light source observation belonged to MNS, not me; however, it is something I've thought about a lot recently... When I first saw poi in person (having only heard the word whispered in dark alleys), it was on fire, and by subsequent internet searches revealed a heavy focus on fire, so I developed the opinion that poi = fire dancing. Which, of course, it does, in one regard. It wasn't until I made a set of sock poi (my first practice poi were always as close as I could make them to fire props, since I assumed that's what I'd be using primarily) I started to shy away from the "Let's see you do that on fire" mentality that I think Internet Poi gives off to some extent. Of course by Internet Poi I just mean what beginners who are browsing the Net for poi resources are likely to come across.
Still, I've stopped thinking of it as a fire art, though it can be used in that way. There are moves that look great on fire or with LEDs or glowsticks or other light sources, but by the same token, some look better with socks. In your quote, Plumsie said some moves look like nothing if you can only see the lights. This is true.. TTN looks great if you focus on the body, but just the heads, it looks no different from a butterfly. Same with a lot of moves. A 5 beat weave doesn't really add anything to the performance that a 3 beat wouldn't if you can't see the body motions involved; it just looks like more circles. Yuta did a performance I saw on Youtube where you could *only* see the lights, and it was incredible, but to analyze, it was only "basic" moves, so you lose the richness of complex body motions, if you decide to use them in a performance.
I would go so far as to say that fire poi and sock poi are vastly different styles of performance, not because moves can only be done with one or the other, just that they look much better with one or the other. Flowers look like nothing with sock poi, but awesome on fire. Wraps and things look best when you see the performer, not just the heads.
I can understand Plumsie's sentiments that some performers use fire so they don't have to use skill, and even after only being involved with poi for half a year I'm starting to get a little bored with "fire poi," just because as she (he? *shrugs*) said, most are performances for which fire is only another feature, not actually part of the show. I actually feel the same way about most props - fire devil sticks, swords, rope darts, torch juggling, contact juggling (god bless Youtube), yoyos (haha just kidding)... The performances don't tend to be enhanced by adding fire. Hoops, staff, and poi are all things that I have notice people can make the fire do awesome things, the other toys it just seems like the fire is incidental.
Personally, I think if a juggling convention doesn't want a fire performances, I agree with this Plumsie character that it shouldn't be necessary. I love spinning fire, and I love being around fire spinners, and a great fire show can be awesome, but it's only one element of poi; it doesn't define poi. LED poi are great where fire is impossible or just instead of fire, but again, it doesn't define poi. For those patterns where the head is the primary focus, brightly colored heads with dark cords can do this without fire, but in a brightly-lit setting that still allows the performer's every move to be seen clearly.
*Shrugs* I'm rambling now, but 50 points for you if you read this far! I'm gonna go read the IJDB thread now...
FireTom, just from my perspective as somebody who's new to poi, and who has always wanted to juggle (but still can't do more than the bare basics), I see as many similarities as differences, and I agree that if things like cigar boxen, hat manipulation, and things of that specialized nature are accepted by "traditionalists," then spinning should follow.
BTW, the light source observation belonged to MNS, not me; however, it is something I've thought about a lot recently... When I first saw poi in person (having only heard the word whispered in dark alleys), it was on fire, and by subsequent internet searches revealed a heavy focus on fire, so I developed the opinion that poi = fire dancing. Which, of course, it does, in one regard. It wasn't until I made a set of sock poi (my first practice poi were always as close as I could make them to fire props, since I assumed that's what I'd be using primarily) I started to shy away from the "Let's see you do that on fire" mentality that I think Internet Poi gives off to some extent. Of course by Internet Poi I just mean what beginners who are browsing the Net for poi resources are likely to come across.
Still, I've stopped thinking of it as a fire art, though it can be used in that way. There are moves that look great on fire or with LEDs or glowsticks or other light sources, but by the same token, some look better with socks. In your quote, Plumsie said some moves look like nothing if you can only see the lights. This is true.. TTN looks great if you focus on the body, but just the heads, it looks no different from a butterfly. Same with a lot of moves. A 5 beat weave doesn't really add anything to the performance that a 3 beat wouldn't if you can't see the body motions involved; it just looks like more circles. Yuta did a performance I saw on Youtube where you could *only* see the lights, and it was incredible, but to analyze, it was only "basic" moves, so you lose the richness of complex body motions, if you decide to use them in a performance.
I would go so far as to say that fire poi and sock poi are vastly different styles of performance, not because moves can only be done with one or the other, just that they look much better with one or the other. Flowers look like nothing with sock poi, but awesome on fire. Wraps and things look best when you see the performer, not just the heads.
I can understand Plumsie's sentiments that some performers use fire so they don't have to use skill, and even after only being involved with poi for half a year I'm starting to get a little bored with "fire poi," just because as she (he? *shrugs*) said, most are performances for which fire is only another feature, not actually part of the show. I actually feel the same way about most props - fire devil sticks, swords, rope darts, torch juggling, contact juggling (god bless Youtube), yoyos (haha just kidding)... The performances don't tend to be enhanced by adding fire. Hoops, staff, and poi are all things that I have notice people can make the fire do awesome things, the other toys it just seems like the fire is incidental.
Personally, I think if a juggling convention doesn't want a fire performances, I agree with this Plumsie character that it shouldn't be necessary. I love spinning fire, and I love being around fire spinners, and a great fire show can be awesome, but it's only one element of poi; it doesn't define poi. LED poi are great where fire is impossible or just instead of fire, but again, it doesn't define poi. For those patterns where the head is the primary focus, brightly colored heads with dark cords can do this without fire, but in a brightly-lit setting that still allows the performer's every move to be seen clearly.
*Shrugs* I'm rambling now, but 50 points for you if you read this far!
I'm gonna go read the IJDB thread now... Bouncing Baby Pipe!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Seems as if this thread is still in the wrong forum, however I guess there is little interest in the topic.
Maybe we check again for the next grand EJC and gather more complaints from members of the board against "jugglers generally disapproving spinners" before we bump this thread again.
Mucky, thanks for participating. Now that you read the IJDB thread, you may have noticed that it is not about organizers not wanting fireperformances. They seem just tired of the same routines over and over, they are more interested in the technical aspects of spinning and (usually) "performances hide behind their prop", i.e. audience can't see what is really happening because of darkness and getting blinded by the fire/LED.
It seems as if the ratio of "spinners" vs. "worthwhile performances to receive recognition" seems to be pretty low... that's what I draw from this discussion.
Seems as if this thread is still in the wrong forum, however I guess there is little interest in the topic.
Maybe we check again for the next grand EJC and gather more complaints from members of the board against "jugglers generally disapproving spinners" before we bump this thread again.
Mucky, thanks for participating. Now that you read the IJDB thread, you may have noticed that it is not about organizers not wanting fireperformances. They seem just tired of the same routines over and over, they are more interested in the technical aspects of spinning and (usually) "performances hide behind their prop", i.e. audience can't see what is really happening because of darkness and getting blinded by the fire/LED.
It seems as if the ratio of "spinners" vs. "worthwhile performances to receive recognition" seems to be pretty low... that's what I draw from this discussion.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Similar Topics
Using the keywords [spinner * v * juggler * 2] we found the following existing topics.
- Forums > North Devon spinners wanted [4 replies]
Show more..
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com