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Forums > Social Chat > Several dead as fire consumes nightclub
Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/21/nightclub.fire/index.html
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This has been on CNN non-stop for the last day or so.... Imagine if it was someone twirling fire that started it.
[ 21. February 2003, 22:10: Message edited by: knagii ]
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This has been on CNN non-stop for the last day or so.... Imagine if it was someone twirling fire that started it.
[ 21. February 2003, 22:10: Message edited by: knagii ]
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tadpole
GOLD Member since Nov 2002
enthusiast
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe, United Kingd...
Total posts: 200
GOLD Member since Nov 2002
enthusiast
Location: Harare, Zimbabwe, United Kingd...
Total posts: 200
Posted:From what I've seen on the news, it appears that the band had some sort of pyrotechnics that started smoking heavily, causing a panic...
Don't worry, be happy...
DeletePosted:In a sense I think we're lucky it wasn't a spinner who set it off, I can see work getting short for those of you who do it for a living if that were the case... still a terrible thing though
There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring
Delete
Posted:I found three REALLY important points within the sad story. Let's hope we can learn from this one.
1) The power went out first. You're now fumbling around in the dark which automatically breeds panic. Fine, you can put out a fire and you've got a safety crew but can they do it in darkness? Do they have extinguishers IN HAND or would they have to find them?
2) People paniced and used ONLY the door that they entered rather than the other available fire exits. I guess that's human nature, especially in pure darkness. Look around and find all of your fire exits to avoid a trampling situation.
3) The fire safety crew failed. They couldn't find the fire extinguishers in the dark. They certainly didn't seem prepared for a pyrokinetic fire.
With some of the lack of safety that I've seen, I'll be cynical and say that it was ONLY luck that it wasn't a spinner that set it off. Would you be ready when the drunk guy knocks over your whitegas container, the lights go completely out and people start running into you in the darkness?
1) The power went out first. You're now fumbling around in the dark which automatically breeds panic. Fine, you can put out a fire and you've got a safety crew but can they do it in darkness? Do they have extinguishers IN HAND or would they have to find them?
2) People paniced and used ONLY the door that they entered rather than the other available fire exits. I guess that's human nature, especially in pure darkness. Look around and find all of your fire exits to avoid a trampling situation.
3) The fire safety crew failed. They couldn't find the fire extinguishers in the dark. They certainly didn't seem prepared for a pyrokinetic fire.
With some of the lack of safety that I've seen, I'll be cynical and say that it was ONLY luck that it wasn't a spinner that set it off. Would you be ready when the drunk guy knocks over your whitegas container, the lights go completely out and people start running into you in the darkness?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:::::::::Hall said the club, called The Station, had recently passed a fire inspection, but didn't have a city permit for pyrotechnics. The building, which is at least 60 years old, was not required to have a sprinkler system because of its small size..The '80s hard rock band Great White had just started playing Thursday night when giant pyrotechnic sparklers on stage began shooting up and ignited the ceiling above them and soundproofing near the stage
'All of a sudden I felt a lot of heat,'' said Jack Russell, the band's lead singer. ''I see the foam's on fire. ... The next thing you know the whole place is in flames.''
He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out, then all the lights went out.::::
That was taken from the internet article about this..I hope these people are charged with the murder of the people who died in this club.
""He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out"""
a f--king water bottle I am sure if they had gotten a permit the city would have required alot more than a water bottle for a saftey back up..These people were negligent and should pay dearly for the lives their laziness and or stupidy took..Hope This makes us all think of just what could happen.I say no matter how good you are or think you are you WILL make a mistake
will you be ready for it ? These assholes sure werent
'All of a sudden I felt a lot of heat,'' said Jack Russell, the band's lead singer. ''I see the foam's on fire. ... The next thing you know the whole place is in flames.''
He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out, then all the lights went out.::::
That was taken from the internet article about this..I hope these people are charged with the murder of the people who died in this club.
""He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out"""
a f--king water bottle I am sure if they had gotten a permit the city would have required alot more than a water bottle for a saftey back up..These people were negligent and should pay dearly for the lives their laziness and or stupidy took..Hope This makes us all think of just what could happen.I say no matter how good you are or think you are you WILL make a mistake
will you be ready for it ? These assholes sure werent
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
Delete
Posted:from reading a little bit more in depth, it was the foam soundproofing that went up first, the quote was something like 'the entire stage went up in 3 seconds'. It does sound like not enough planning was involved it the flash tubes/pots were set to go off in (most likely) a low ceilinged club with foam soundproofing all around the stage. AND there was'nt much mention of a safety crew or FIRE EXTINGUISHERS that I read, only, *laughs* a small crowd of people using bottled water. N yep, I'd be ready cuz no white gas ever enters the club in my case, always soak and spin off outside. Does bring up a good point of prepping safety crews on a wider range of what if scenarios neh..
First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica
" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."
Posted:erm, sorry about posting a second thread on this. i even checked to make sure and i missed it. now i get to feel extra stupid.
Delete
Posted:I just watched the video some one shot of this on cnn you can clearly see the wall catch on fire it burns for about 5 seconds before going up the wall through out the whole video I didnt see one person with a fire exstinguer.This is so sad all those people gone for the cost of a couple of exstinguers and and some people who knew how to use them .
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
DeletePosted:WILL THE MOD'S PLEASE NOTE I WILL BE FULLY EXERCISING MY FREDOM POF SPEECH HERE.......
as quoted by RIZ
..I hope these people are charged with the murder of the people who died in this club.
""He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out"""
a f--king water bottle I am sure if they had gotten a permit the city would have required alot more than a water bottle for a saftey back up
I hope by "these people" you mean the building owners and not the band (otherwise strong words coming your way).. and even so, given that theyhad actually passed a fire safety check it actually lies in the hands of the inspectors, althoiugh, given that they work for whatever council decided the venue didn't need sprink;lers given it's size, they can't be held responsible for the deaths ergo NOT charged with murder. GROW UP...insert random abuse here... there is no murder charge here, negligence maybe, but Murder??? please. I appreciate you may upset at the loss of life, yes it is a terrible thing, but start demanding heads for a murder? honestly!!!!
re: WATER BOTTLE
the band's singer said he tried to tackle the blaze with a water bottle.. sa in the ones they have all over the stage when performing.. what would you have done in that kind of panic? stood around and looked at the pretty flames or tried to help? if the water bottle was all the singer had to hand then kudos to him for trying to help, or are you expecting all bands to start having a fire extinguisher per member on stage?..
when it all come down to it, it was a tragic accident coupled with the mass hysteria/stupidty of the crowd. the blame doesn't lie anywhere easily identifiable.
as quoted by RIZ
..I hope these people are charged with the murder of the people who died in this club.
""He said he started dousing the fire with a water bottle but couldn't put it out"""
a f--king water bottle I am sure if they had gotten a permit the city would have required alot more than a water bottle for a saftey back up
I hope by "these people" you mean the building owners and not the band (otherwise strong words coming your way).. and even so, given that theyhad actually passed a fire safety check it actually lies in the hands of the inspectors, althoiugh, given that they work for whatever council decided the venue didn't need sprink;lers given it's size, they can't be held responsible for the deaths ergo NOT charged with murder. GROW UP...insert random abuse here... there is no murder charge here, negligence maybe, but Murder??? please. I appreciate you may upset at the loss of life, yes it is a terrible thing, but start demanding heads for a murder? honestly!!!!
re: WATER BOTTLE
the band's singer said he tried to tackle the blaze with a water bottle.. sa in the ones they have all over the stage when performing.. what would you have done in that kind of panic? stood around and looked at the pretty flames or tried to help? if the water bottle was all the singer had to hand then kudos to him for trying to help, or are you expecting all bands to start having a fire extinguisher per member on stage?..
when it all come down to it, it was a tragic accident coupled with the mass hysteria/stupidty of the crowd. the blame doesn't lie anywhere easily identifiable.
There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring
DeletePosted:So you are telling me if some inspector tells me a building is safe for pyrotechnics I can bring my band in with poorly trained and equiped fire safetys and do whatever I want when the club tells me I don't have permission to do pyrotechnics?
And then im not responsible for the 60 deaths? Give be a break. Any idiot could see the fire hazard of foam sound proofing on the bloody stage. If your going to use pyrotechnics you better have a couple of brain cells to rub together to assess the fire risks involved and know how to set them up safely, monitor their use safely and intervene if something goes wrong.
Yes I think if you want to judge these people on a moral level they should be charged for murder. But the legal system doesn't run on morals. Murder charge? Probably wouldn't hold up in court. Manslaughter? Yes definatly they should be charged and I think they will be charged for manslaughter and convicted. I imagine after that they are going to get sued for all the wrongful deaths. The only good thing comeing out of this incident is the destruction of a crappy band. Man I hate great white. It's suprising more then 60 people would even show up to see the them play.
[ 22. February 2003, 11:44: Message edited by: Astar ]
And then im not responsible for the 60 deaths? Give be a break. Any idiot could see the fire hazard of foam sound proofing on the bloody stage. If your going to use pyrotechnics you better have a couple of brain cells to rub together to assess the fire risks involved and know how to set them up safely, monitor their use safely and intervene if something goes wrong.
Yes I think if you want to judge these people on a moral level they should be charged for murder. But the legal system doesn't run on morals. Murder charge? Probably wouldn't hold up in court. Manslaughter? Yes definatly they should be charged and I think they will be charged for manslaughter and convicted. I imagine after that they are going to get sued for all the wrongful deaths. The only good thing comeing out of this incident is the destruction of a crappy band. Man I hate great white. It's suprising more then 60 people would even show up to see the them play.
[ 22. February 2003, 11:44: Message edited by: Astar ]
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Posted:Oh good, the finger pointing has begun. Before I am implicated in the incident as well I did want to say I hope there won't be too much unnecessary "anti fire performing" backlash from this. The media has already latched onto it and in New York City is focusing on "Why night clubs aren't inspected by the Fire Martial as much as they used to be?"
Looks like a good time to break out the glow sticks.
Looks like a good time to break out the glow sticks.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:found this on the news.
The pyrotechnics were used without permission from the club, said Kathleen Hagerty, a lawyer representing club owners Michael and Jeffrey Derderian.
"No permission was ever requested by the band or its agents to use pyrotechnics at The Station, and no permission was ever given," she said.
The band's singer, Jack Russell, said the manager checked with the club before the show and the use of pyrotechnics was approved. And Paul Woolnough, president of Great White's management company, said tour manager Dan Biechele "always checks" with club officials before pyrotechnics are used.
"I'm not going to reply to those allegations, but I do know that the club would have been informed, as they always are," Woolnough said. Biechele could not immediately be located for comment.
The owner of a well-known New Jersey nightclub said Great White failed to tell him they were using pyrotechnics for a concert there a week ago.
sounds like the pyrotechnics people were bloody f____ing idiots. "hey guys, lets put these hugh fireballs right under the PLASTIC foam and see what happens. Duh. I find it hard to understand how a third of the people present (90 out of 300) could have died. there must have been massive amounts of foam insulation for the fire to spread that easily.
If anybody should be sent to jail it should be the dumbarses that set those pyrotechnics up in the first place, without considering the consequences of shooting fire into plastic foam.
don't you have to have a lisence and training? or maybe it is like body piercing shops in Oklahoma, the state doesn't care if you do it safe or correctly, as long as you pay them the money for the lisence. no training classes or inspections. shameful and tragic.
It also sounds like they had a history of doing this stuff without permision. I think they probably felt they were above the law, and above asking permision. I'll bet they feel different now.
The pyrotechnics were used without permission from the club, said Kathleen Hagerty, a lawyer representing club owners Michael and Jeffrey Derderian.
"No permission was ever requested by the band or its agents to use pyrotechnics at The Station, and no permission was ever given," she said.
The band's singer, Jack Russell, said the manager checked with the club before the show and the use of pyrotechnics was approved. And Paul Woolnough, president of Great White's management company, said tour manager Dan Biechele "always checks" with club officials before pyrotechnics are used.
"I'm not going to reply to those allegations, but I do know that the club would have been informed, as they always are," Woolnough said. Biechele could not immediately be located for comment.
The owner of a well-known New Jersey nightclub said Great White failed to tell him they were using pyrotechnics for a concert there a week ago.
sounds like the pyrotechnics people were bloody f____ing idiots. "hey guys, lets put these hugh fireballs right under the PLASTIC foam and see what happens. Duh. I find it hard to understand how a third of the people present (90 out of 300) could have died. there must have been massive amounts of foam insulation for the fire to spread that easily.
If anybody should be sent to jail it should be the dumbarses that set those pyrotechnics up in the first place, without considering the consequences of shooting fire into plastic foam.
don't you have to have a lisence and training? or maybe it is like body piercing shops in Oklahoma, the state doesn't care if you do it safe or correctly, as long as you pay them the money for the lisence. no training classes or inspections. shameful and tragic.
It also sounds like they had a history of doing this stuff without permision. I think they probably felt they were above the law, and above asking permision. I'll bet they feel different now.
we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!
DeletePosted:2 ways this can go.
1 the band told the club owners they were going to do it and the owners are denying it.. In which they can all goto hell.
Or... And this is more likey.. The band had no respect and no care for saftey. If you watch the video they have no fear.. The gerbs are setup right in front of the drummer and right behind the lead guy.. They've done it time and time again they don't even flinch when the sparks start to fly. The pyro used is very simple and doesn't burn hot... Steel wool is much more dangerous. The gerbs used there don't even burn hot enough to burn skin. I've seen people dance in much worse. So it boils down to the band just being oblivious to anything flamable.
I have been hired at a very large nightclub for weekly sessions. Everytime I saw that video I imagine myself in the situation of the band.. The lead guy just slowly turns around stares for abit and calmly walks out the back door.. One of his friends are dead in the fire..And he's killed 10 people with his ignorance of the dangers. How will he sleep at night. How many times will he relive that night in prison? Thank god for the nafaa.
Anyone else notice that the only things being thrown around right now are permits and permission? How about seeing a pyrotech liscense.. Or his insureance for indoor pyrotech? Manslughter is only the begining of what this band is looking at.
Last night a licsned pyrotech called in and explaned just about everything, however when he started to tell the news that the band was not licsned nor did they have a permit.. They took him off the air.. People don't care weather someone is trained or not. For nearly everyone who sees this video they will think of it next time they are at a fireworks show and wonder. As such there's no difference between fire spinners who are cautious and thouse that are reckless in the public's eye.... Proof again it's not a matter of if, but when and how prepared you will be to deal with the situation.
So to quote NYC "It will come from a direction you don't see in a moment of choas you didn't predict."
1 the band told the club owners they were going to do it and the owners are denying it.. In which they can all goto hell.
Or... And this is more likey.. The band had no respect and no care for saftey. If you watch the video they have no fear.. The gerbs are setup right in front of the drummer and right behind the lead guy.. They've done it time and time again they don't even flinch when the sparks start to fly. The pyro used is very simple and doesn't burn hot... Steel wool is much more dangerous. The gerbs used there don't even burn hot enough to burn skin. I've seen people dance in much worse. So it boils down to the band just being oblivious to anything flamable.
I have been hired at a very large nightclub for weekly sessions. Everytime I saw that video I imagine myself in the situation of the band.. The lead guy just slowly turns around stares for abit and calmly walks out the back door.. One of his friends are dead in the fire..And he's killed 10 people with his ignorance of the dangers. How will he sleep at night. How many times will he relive that night in prison? Thank god for the nafaa.
Anyone else notice that the only things being thrown around right now are permits and permission? How about seeing a pyrotech liscense.. Or his insureance for indoor pyrotech? Manslughter is only the begining of what this band is looking at.
Last night a licsned pyrotech called in and explaned just about everything, however when he started to tell the news that the band was not licsned nor did they have a permit.. They took him off the air.. People don't care weather someone is trained or not. For nearly everyone who sees this video they will think of it next time they are at a fireworks show and wonder. As such there's no difference between fire spinners who are cautious and thouse that are reckless in the public's eye.... Proof again it's not a matter of if, but when and how prepared you will be to deal with the situation.
So to quote NYC "It will come from a direction you don't see in a moment of choas you didn't predict."
Delete
Posted:They can't contact the manager of the band so im guessing the manager lied to them about the permission. Personally I don't care if they had permission or not.
Anyone who takes pyrotechnics into a club should be able to assess the scene and see if there are any risks. And syrofoam sound proofing is a bloody big risk.
If someone showed me an official permit telling me a stick of dynamite is not harmful im not going to light it and throw it into a crowd as a joke. Because I actually have the mental capacity to think on my own.
Anyone who takes pyrotechnics into a club should be able to assess the scene and see if there are any risks. And syrofoam sound proofing is a bloody big risk.
If someone showed me an official permit telling me a stick of dynamite is not harmful im not going to light it and throw it into a crowd as a joke. Because I actually have the mental capacity to think on my own.
Delete
Posted:Evil
I am sorry for the wrong verbage I meant MANSLAUTER 95 counts thus far and yes the band (pyro tech )they are the ones who used a flame effect without permits or proper safey crew..(not offical )
::re: WATER BOTTLE
the band's singer said he tried to tackle the blaze with a water bottle.. sa in the ones they have all over the stage when performing.. what would you have done in that kind of panic? stood around and looked at the pretty flames or tried to help::::
My answer to that is NO I wouldnt be there throwing a water bottle on a fire In panic, you might ask hmmmmmmm how can he say that?I had a my fuel dump go up once at the time holding a half gallon of 100% colmans I was on stage using fire floggers at the time and felt the heat behind me by the time I got thier to help my saftey crew had the problem gone .No one was hurt and it cost me $150 to repair some carpet and $100 to refill two co2 fire exstinguers. If I would not have had a trained saftey crew in place you would have been seeing my face on cnn for burning down a club
A personal note on that story I felt very lucky that night and was very grateful no one on my team or at the club was hurt and how our fuel dump was set up was looked at and changed to keep that from ever happening again.and to be honest it should have never happened in the 1st place.
Evil sorry if your offended if you care to say evil and bad things to me about my posts please email them to me at darkrizen@aol.com there is no need to vent them here.
Riz
I am sorry for the wrong verbage I meant MANSLAUTER 95 counts thus far and yes the band (pyro tech )they are the ones who used a flame effect without permits or proper safey crew..(not offical )
::re: WATER BOTTLE
the band's singer said he tried to tackle the blaze with a water bottle.. sa in the ones they have all over the stage when performing.. what would you have done in that kind of panic? stood around and looked at the pretty flames or tried to help::::
My answer to that is NO I wouldnt be there throwing a water bottle on a fire In panic, you might ask hmmmmmmm how can he say that?I had a my fuel dump go up once at the time holding a half gallon of 100% colmans I was on stage using fire floggers at the time and felt the heat behind me by the time I got thier to help my saftey crew had the problem gone .No one was hurt and it cost me $150 to repair some carpet and $100 to refill two co2 fire exstinguers. If I would not have had a trained saftey crew in place you would have been seeing my face on cnn for burning down a club
A personal note on that story I felt very lucky that night and was very grateful no one on my team or at the club was hurt and how our fuel dump was set up was looked at and changed to keep that from ever happening again.and to be honest it should have never happened in the 1st place.
Evil sorry if your offended if you care to say evil and bad things to me about my posts please email them to me at darkrizen@aol.com there is no need to vent them here.
Riz
I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all
DeleteCantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Erm what are "fire floggers"?
Why does it necessarily hold that just because the guy was using a water bottle that he was panicking?
Sounds to me like he was doing the best he could with the materials to hand.
If the venue/road crew is/are so sh!te that they don't have working fire extinguishers to hand, then what's anyone going to do?
Plus Riz, you work with fire all the time. You're a fire performer. Your average joe on the other hand is going to be scared sh!tless of the stuff.
It's all hot and burny and it gets everywhere.
People are irrational when it comes to their lives being at stake. Strange but true.
OK rant over. Go back to your bickering.
Why does it necessarily hold that just because the guy was using a water bottle that he was panicking?
Sounds to me like he was doing the best he could with the materials to hand.
If the venue/road crew is/are so sh!te that they don't have working fire extinguishers to hand, then what's anyone going to do?
Plus Riz, you work with fire all the time. You're a fire performer. Your average joe on the other hand is going to be scared sh!tless of the stuff.
It's all hot and burny and it gets everywhere.
People are irrational when it comes to their lives being at stake. Strange but true.
OK rant over. Go back to your bickering.
"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean
Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
Posted:And what's all this "exercising...freedom of speech" business about?
Can we not avoid that sillyness from spiralling out of control?
Anyone can state their opinions whenever and whereever they like. It's just preferable that they keep their swearing and profanity to the barest minimum.
If that's ok with everyone concerned?
Can we not avoid that sillyness from spiralling out of control?
Anyone can state their opinions whenever and whereever they like. It's just preferable that they keep their swearing and profanity to the barest minimum.
If that's ok with everyone concerned?
"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean
Posted:C@ntus it's a russian mig 23 flogger... on fire!
Actually it's these
Non-Https Image Link
Only riz adapted them and made these
Non-Https Image Link
Non-Https Image Link
ps:they are used to whip people.
[ 22. February 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: Astar ]
Actually it's these
Non-Https Image Link
Only riz adapted them and made these
Non-Https Image Link
Non-Https Image Link
ps:they are used to whip people.
[ 22. February 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: Astar ]
Delete
Posted:Change that.... had a gig at a large warehouse. 4 months indoor twirling without a any problems.. Wonder how many others will be done...
Delete
Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
SILVER Member since Jul 2001
Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road, United Kingdom
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Alright Knagii, own up, how come you've only got 3 posts? What happened to your other account?
"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean
Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Total posts: 3989
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Total posts: 3989
Posted:What everyone else has said.
In my opinion, on the supposed facts I've seen (we must always assume there are things misreported or not reported at all in the media).
I think it was the pyro's job to check for safety, they screwed up.
In my opinion, it was also the pyro's job to make sure there were trained people with fire extinguishers ready in case of an emrgency. They screwed up here too.
In my opinion, there should also have been at least one fire marshal watching the whole thing, as they must have turned off the fire alarm in the building, and to turn it back on or activate it should anything go wrong while it's sensors were out. That was also a screw-up.
Yes, yes I'm putting the blame on after the fact, with very limited facts (if they are the facts at all).
It is the people who work with the fire/pyro toys that MUST keep safety as the firs priority.
I insist on checking out the venue before a gig, explaining what is not acceptable as decorations or nearby materials and always let the client know that I must have veto rights over the gig at all times.
If there is any time I feel a fire may result, IT IS NOT WORTH DOING THE GIG.
Think about the worth of that pyro display to the band/venue if it went well. Some people thinking 'cool'. If it goes wrong, well we know what happened.
IT IS NEVER WORTH ENDANGERING LIVES OR PROPERTY TO ACHIEVE AND EFFECT OR GO WITH A SHOW.
I'm deeply saddened to find that not everyone in this world holds the above statement to their heart.
In my opinion, on the supposed facts I've seen (we must always assume there are things misreported or not reported at all in the media).
I think it was the pyro's job to check for safety, they screwed up.
In my opinion, it was also the pyro's job to make sure there were trained people with fire extinguishers ready in case of an emrgency. They screwed up here too.
In my opinion, there should also have been at least one fire marshal watching the whole thing, as they must have turned off the fire alarm in the building, and to turn it back on or activate it should anything go wrong while it's sensors were out. That was also a screw-up.
Yes, yes I'm putting the blame on after the fact, with very limited facts (if they are the facts at all).
It is the people who work with the fire/pyro toys that MUST keep safety as the firs priority.
I insist on checking out the venue before a gig, explaining what is not acceptable as decorations or nearby materials and always let the client know that I must have veto rights over the gig at all times.
If there is any time I feel a fire may result, IT IS NOT WORTH DOING THE GIG.
Think about the worth of that pyro display to the band/venue if it went well. Some people thinking 'cool'. If it goes wrong, well we know what happened.
IT IS NEVER WORTH ENDANGERING LIVES OR PROPERTY TO ACHIEVE AND EFFECT OR GO WITH A SHOW.
I'm deeply saddened to find that not everyone in this world holds the above statement to their heart.
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Posted:The Club didn't even have a sprinkler system.. It was so small and old the FD didn't make them install one... Bet someone wishes they dished out the cash for common sense now.
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Posted:Nah a good safe pyro show would never leave the impression of "cool" in anyones minds.
I mean this is greatwhite were talking about. Nothing can ever make the experience of seeing them live less then horrible.
I mean this is greatwhite were talking about. Nothing can ever make the experience of seeing them live less then horrible.
Delete
Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Total posts: 3989
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Total posts: 3989
Posted:(takes off his moderators cap)
Astar, I just thought I'd let you know, UNofficially, that I felt that comment about the band innappropriate and offensive this close to the death of so many people.
I hope you have not lost any people dear to you in your life, but if you have, perhaps it would be a reminder that this is a public forum and that friends or relatives of those who died may have read your comments.
Sure humour is a better reaction than despair, but sometimes there is a period where it pays to humour people by not saying certain things rather than cracking untimely jokes.
All, of course, in my opinion, and nothing to do with HoP's stance...
Astar, I just thought I'd let you know, UNofficially, that I felt that comment about the band innappropriate and offensive this close to the death of so many people.
I hope you have not lost any people dear to you in your life, but if you have, perhaps it would be a reminder that this is a public forum and that friends or relatives of those who died may have read your comments.
Sure humour is a better reaction than despair, but sometimes there is a period where it pays to humour people by not saying certain things rather than cracking untimely jokes.
All, of course, in my opinion, and nothing to do with HoP's stance...
HoP Posting Guidelines
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Posted:My point is this.. you cannot hold the band responsible.. their tech crew maybe but the band. unlike fire spinners, the band as performers have little or no part in the setting up of pyrotechnics that's the job of the support crew, they go on and perform, al the setting up, taking down is done by somebody else.
this tragedy is a prime example of the stupidity expressed by the american press, rather than the how's and why's.. they are looking for the who's.
we will probably never know exactly who is responsible which IS a damn shame. But seriously, to start randomly shouting for people to be brought to trial when you don't know anything about the events is ridiculous. All the facts we know are the ones on TV... having watched american TV I for one will not be putting all my faith in what they have to say.
this tragedy is a prime example of the stupidity expressed by the american press, rather than the how's and why's.. they are looking for the who's.
we will probably never know exactly who is responsible which IS a damn shame. But seriously, to start randomly shouting for people to be brought to trial when you don't know anything about the events is ridiculous. All the facts we know are the ones on TV... having watched american TV I for one will not be putting all my faith in what they have to say.
There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring
Delete
Posted:Latest at this moment, the current total death toll is 96. Rhode Island DA is looking into whether or not charges are to be filed against the band and/or the club, ranging from manslaughter to murder to simple assault. A federal investigator said they would most likely not get involved.
As far as permission goes, it's still one persons' word against another. So far, the blame seems to fall on the bands' promoter, Dan Biechele, who alledgedly got permission from the club owners. The president of their management company claimed that Biechele 'always checks' with venue officials before using pyrotechnics. The singer Jack Russel said they had at least verbal permission.
The band should not suffer the consequences for this, all they know is big hair and guitar riffs. (It does surprise me that they didn't notice the hazard themselves. They've been doing this for decades.) However, their crew should absolutely be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law. There's no excuse for this accident. It was compltely preventable
It's also been said that this is not the first club that claims permission was not obtained before using pyro on stage.
As far as permission goes, it's still one persons' word against another. So far, the blame seems to fall on the bands' promoter, Dan Biechele, who alledgedly got permission from the club owners. The president of their management company claimed that Biechele 'always checks' with venue officials before using pyrotechnics. The singer Jack Russel said they had at least verbal permission.
The band should not suffer the consequences for this, all they know is big hair and guitar riffs. (It does surprise me that they didn't notice the hazard themselves. They've been doing this for decades.) However, their crew should absolutely be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law. There's no excuse for this accident. It was compltely preventable
It's also been said that this is not the first club that claims permission was not obtained before using pyro on stage.
Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.
Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.
Posted:Sorry but I do feel the band should be held accountable.They obviously wanted the pyrotechnics and it's their show.Anyone could have told that that building was not readily capable of housing any kind of pyrotechnics.They could have very easily prevented this from happening.
Sorry Charles but when I heard about how many people were there one of my first thoughts was "for a Great White show?".I'm with Astar on this one.
Being in a profession where safety is top priority and accidents can happen very easily my philosophy is that if I'm running the show then I'm responsible for all those working with me.
Sorry Charles but when I heard about how many people were there one of my first thoughts was "for a Great White show?".I'm with Astar on this one.
Being in a profession where safety is top priority and accidents can happen very easily my philosophy is that if I'm running the show then I'm responsible for all those working with me.
Delete
Posted:I also do not believe the band members themselves should be held accountable. Someone mentioned that they should be professional. And they were being professional, they hired someone to take care of the details. They have a promotor to get the permission and the techs to survey for dangers.
The promoter probably gave them the go-ahead to use the pyro not caring and wanting the full show to continue. The pyro-tech guys have probably done this "dozens of times without incident" and figured this would be another one of those times.
Of course management is going to deny everything. They always do. That's why you get stuff like that in writing. When Pele is setting up a gig she either gets the local fire marshal's okay in writing or she gets a waiver signed by the club owner.
Pele just performed on Saturday and the question of the night was "This isn't going to be another White Snake performance is it?" She wasn't spitting fire, only twirling and trailing. But it was still on everyone's mind. We did two walkarounds and the place so safe it was great. The sprinklers were all visible and well placed. Very much up to code. As for the permission part with the local fire marshal, our promotor took care of that.
To make matters worse, a local bar got shut down for being a fire hazard. The bartender blew a fireball and got flaming fuel on the bar itself. No damage or injuries but it did happen while the fire marshal was visiting.
The promoter probably gave them the go-ahead to use the pyro not caring and wanting the full show to continue. The pyro-tech guys have probably done this "dozens of times without incident" and figured this would be another one of those times.
Of course management is going to deny everything. They always do. That's why you get stuff like that in writing. When Pele is setting up a gig she either gets the local fire marshal's okay in writing or she gets a waiver signed by the club owner.
Pele just performed on Saturday and the question of the night was "This isn't going to be another White Snake performance is it?" She wasn't spitting fire, only twirling and trailing. But it was still on everyone's mind. We did two walkarounds and the place so safe it was great. The sprinklers were all visible and well placed. Very much up to code. As for the permission part with the local fire marshal, our promotor took care of that.
To make matters worse, a local bar got shut down for being a fire hazard. The bartender blew a fireball and got flaming fuel on the bar itself. No damage or injuries but it did happen while the fire marshal was visiting.
FYI: I am not Pele. If you wish to reply to me and use a short version of my name, use: PWB.
English? Who needs that? I'm never going to England. - Homer Jay Simpson
Posted:*taking off moderators cap: taking deep breath preparin for rant*
Do any of you people have experience with pyrotechnics at all (not counting you Maelstrom, but your input would be interesting)? If you did you would realize that the safety protocal is COMPLETELY different than with what we do. I am a fire performer. I don't deal with pyrotechnics, but I know several people who do. Pyrotechnics burn higher and much MUCH hotter (by several hundred,at least, degrees) than anything we could possibly do. Having some guy standing by with a damp towel and a fire extinguisher would not have done anything. To judge this event by our standards is like trying to step on an elephant the way you would an ant.
In fact, speaking of fire extinguishers, for a club to pass fire code they have to have a certain amount of fire extinguishers on hand. Are there accounts of ANYONE from the club using them? None.
The pyrotechnics they were using were relatively small as well. About double maybe triple the size of a cigarette box, and they blow between 10-20 feet in the air. The walls went up first and people thought it was part of the show. It wasn't until the fire hit the ceiling that chaos reigned.
And sprinklers are not mandated in clubs. Many clubs instead have an alert system rigged straight to a fire company, just as many home do now. It cuts back on unecessary water damage. My Poi Set off the smoke system in the club I was in Sat night and the fire marshal was called and explained what happened so they wouldn't waste their time showing up. If the manager hadn't have called, the fire trucks would've been deployed. Many clubs do not have smoke or heat sensors because body heat and fog machines have set them off in the past, when they were mandated.
And has anyone mentioned that while 3 exits were accessible, people died because they were all trying to fit out one? Panic, I understand, breeds reactionary stupidity, however we are taught all our lives not to panic in such extreme situations.
Great White has actually never used pyrotechnics in their shows until this year. I have seen them a couple times and they did not have them. A friend who has seen them more than I said the same. Why should they know how to use them and what to do? That is why they hire people in to handle such things.
When people died in the Who stampede in the 70's they were not held accountable. When people die in mosh pits encouraged by the band, the band is not held accountable (and I think they should be)...this is no different. The band did thier show as they know how to do it, the manager is the one who knew better.
Managers and promoters *generally* (not all) will take a mile for every centimeter they are given. That is what this sounds like. If the manager did not get the permission in writing, then the fault does lie with him, completely. He should know to have a paper trail. If he does not then he is a crappy manager and should be sued for this by the bband, as this completely reflects on them badly, so whatever "comeback" efforts they were making, they have lost.
I think the club handled the entire situation badly. My understanding is that the hired help reacted just as badly as the crowd, instead of taking control, the way they are supposed to. When I was a bartender I was given specific instructions on what to do in an emergency situation, and it was not "panic with the crowd".
Also the clubs I have performed in have had someone there watching everystep of the set-up, not just of me but anyone else there, and they should. I also do walk throughs and trial runs with them there. Had they have done this, then the issue might have been caught. But you know what? It is heresay, all of it, and the truth probably has already gone up in flames.
Even if there are no charges (which I doubt they will have anyone to peg stuff on conclusively. He said-she said does not do well in court) there will be 96 civil suits filed by families against the club owners, the pyrotechic crew, the band and the manager, rest assured. I just hate that people see death now as something to be capitalized on.
I just think that to compare what we do to pyrotechnics is absolutely ludicrous and utterly absurd. In fact, in many cities I have worked in, I fall under the "Open Flame" regulations which also cover candles and oil lamps (except for fire breathing). To judge this tragedy and those involved (especially by saying the pyrotechnic crew was not safe) by our standards of safety is really inane and useless, as once those things are blown, it is good or bad and there is very little that can be done to rectify the situation. And since it has come out that they are/were a reputible company that has done magnitudes of shows, I have no reason to believe it wasn't a stupid accident.
I for one will continue on doing what I am doing, and from what I was told by the bar manager and the promoter the other night, my performance was so spot on, in all accounts, I will be working more this year than before. *shrug*
If any lessons are to be learned by us from this incedent I think it is to ALWAYS have a paper trail in your hand, take a proactive-professional approach to your JOB (as that is what performing in public is) and to know where the exits are.
*rant over*
Do any of you people have experience with pyrotechnics at all (not counting you Maelstrom, but your input would be interesting)? If you did you would realize that the safety protocal is COMPLETELY different than with what we do. I am a fire performer. I don't deal with pyrotechnics, but I know several people who do. Pyrotechnics burn higher and much MUCH hotter (by several hundred,at least, degrees) than anything we could possibly do. Having some guy standing by with a damp towel and a fire extinguisher would not have done anything. To judge this event by our standards is like trying to step on an elephant the way you would an ant.
In fact, speaking of fire extinguishers, for a club to pass fire code they have to have a certain amount of fire extinguishers on hand. Are there accounts of ANYONE from the club using them? None.
The pyrotechnics they were using were relatively small as well. About double maybe triple the size of a cigarette box, and they blow between 10-20 feet in the air. The walls went up first and people thought it was part of the show. It wasn't until the fire hit the ceiling that chaos reigned.
And sprinklers are not mandated in clubs. Many clubs instead have an alert system rigged straight to a fire company, just as many home do now. It cuts back on unecessary water damage. My Poi Set off the smoke system in the club I was in Sat night and the fire marshal was called and explained what happened so they wouldn't waste their time showing up. If the manager hadn't have called, the fire trucks would've been deployed. Many clubs do not have smoke or heat sensors because body heat and fog machines have set them off in the past, when they were mandated.
And has anyone mentioned that while 3 exits were accessible, people died because they were all trying to fit out one? Panic, I understand, breeds reactionary stupidity, however we are taught all our lives not to panic in such extreme situations.
Great White has actually never used pyrotechnics in their shows until this year. I have seen them a couple times and they did not have them. A friend who has seen them more than I said the same. Why should they know how to use them and what to do? That is why they hire people in to handle such things.
When people died in the Who stampede in the 70's they were not held accountable. When people die in mosh pits encouraged by the band, the band is not held accountable (and I think they should be)...this is no different. The band did thier show as they know how to do it, the manager is the one who knew better.
Managers and promoters *generally* (not all) will take a mile for every centimeter they are given. That is what this sounds like. If the manager did not get the permission in writing, then the fault does lie with him, completely. He should know to have a paper trail. If he does not then he is a crappy manager and should be sued for this by the bband, as this completely reflects on them badly, so whatever "comeback" efforts they were making, they have lost.
I think the club handled the entire situation badly. My understanding is that the hired help reacted just as badly as the crowd, instead of taking control, the way they are supposed to. When I was a bartender I was given specific instructions on what to do in an emergency situation, and it was not "panic with the crowd".
Also the clubs I have performed in have had someone there watching everystep of the set-up, not just of me but anyone else there, and they should. I also do walk throughs and trial runs with them there. Had they have done this, then the issue might have been caught. But you know what? It is heresay, all of it, and the truth probably has already gone up in flames.
Even if there are no charges (which I doubt they will have anyone to peg stuff on conclusively. He said-she said does not do well in court) there will be 96 civil suits filed by families against the club owners, the pyrotechic crew, the band and the manager, rest assured. I just hate that people see death now as something to be capitalized on.
I just think that to compare what we do to pyrotechnics is absolutely ludicrous and utterly absurd. In fact, in many cities I have worked in, I fall under the "Open Flame" regulations which also cover candles and oil lamps (except for fire breathing). To judge this tragedy and those involved (especially by saying the pyrotechnic crew was not safe) by our standards of safety is really inane and useless, as once those things are blown, it is good or bad and there is very little that can be done to rectify the situation. And since it has come out that they are/were a reputible company that has done magnitudes of shows, I have no reason to believe it wasn't a stupid accident.
I for one will continue on doing what I am doing, and from what I was told by the bar manager and the promoter the other night, my performance was so spot on, in all accounts, I will be working more this year than before. *shrug*
If any lessons are to be learned by us from this incedent I think it is to ALWAYS have a paper trail in your hand, take a proactive-professional approach to your JOB (as that is what performing in public is) and to know where the exits are.
*rant over*
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Posted:IVE BEEN DOING SOME STUDYING ON THE CLUB
ITS WALLS WERE LINED WITH EGG CRATE AND THEY HAD A 12 FOOT CEALING NO SPRINKLER SYSTEM AND THE FIRE WORKS THEY WERE USING WERE A FIRE EXPORATIVE
WITH MEANS IT NEEDS 30 FEET OF CLEARENCE AND IS NOT FOR A INDOOR USE AND THE CLUB AND BAND ARE BEING TRIED WITH INVOLINTARY MANSLAUGHTER
SUX HUH (WHO WAS ON FIRE SAFETY)THINK TWICE NEXT TIME YOU BURN AND BE SAFE. P.O.
....................SUNDANCE..........
ITS WALLS WERE LINED WITH EGG CRATE AND THEY HAD A 12 FOOT CEALING NO SPRINKLER SYSTEM AND THE FIRE WORKS THEY WERE USING WERE A FIRE EXPORATIVE
WITH MEANS IT NEEDS 30 FEET OF CLEARENCE AND IS NOT FOR A INDOOR USE AND THE CLUB AND BAND ARE BEING TRIED WITH INVOLINTARY MANSLAUGHTER
SUX HUH (WHO WAS ON FIRE SAFETY)THINK TWICE NEXT TIME YOU BURN AND BE SAFE. P.O.
....................SUNDANCE..........
wazzzzzzzzup all im sundance from san antonio i dont know alot of you but i hope to get to know you better on here if your in san antonio write me a i.m. laters.........sundance
DeletePosted:*mod hat back off*
Sundance...
1. Please do not use all caps. It is concidered yelling in online ettiquette terms, which is just not nice, as well as being hard on the eyes.
2. The walls were not lined with egg crate, which is a flimsy (card)board and would've never passed any public building codes, let alone fire codes. The walls were made out of standard construction wood and plaster, the same as most houses, and decorated in a club decor.
3. The club had just passed it's annual fire inspection by the Fire Marshal two months ago in December of 2002, and was fully up to code (as posted on CNN).
As mentioned before, the sprinkler system is not required if alternative measures are taken.
There even was a report of a fireman stating on the news that if there had been a sprinkler system then they would not have shown up until someone called 911. With the set up they used, the fire department was there faster than that. Also in an interview a fireman stated that he doubts with as fast and hot as the fire moved that it would have helped. There have been several instances of fire where sprinklers haven't helped. People are obsessing over the idea of sprinklers in looking for scapegoats and reasonings where there are none. It was a horrible accident.
4. Read my above statment on pyrotechnics and safety not being the same as fire spinners and safety. Here is where the miscommunication comes into play. For Pyrotechnics to be used indoors (and sometimes outdoors), the standard safety protocal is to have a fire authority on hand unless otherwise directed. I even had to do this for a show I had at a multiple thousand seating arena with 3 story high ceilings. It is possible they were told by the manager that because the building passed a recent inspection that they would be alright.
5. The fire effects in use actually were only supposed to reach a height of 10 feet, just so you know. (And there is no such word as Exportive. When I did a dictionary.com search, just to make sure, for it the closest thing that came up in any variety of spellings was Explorative.)
6. The band is not being tried with manslaughter. In fact, course of legal action is still under debate and no definitive measures have been decided upon as of yet. The band, and everyone even remotely involved has been subpeona'd for questioning. The owners have not been co-operating with the police. THe band has. What does that say? And I would like to point out, both owners made it out alive. One member of the band did not.
For futher updates and details, CNN online is/was doing a good job of reliable coverage. They have a great article on there now about how the RI clubs are all being re-inspected and that no pyrotechnics can be used in clubs with a 300 person or less capacity.
There is no need to spread more hysteria, especially in all caps.
[ 27. February 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: Pele ]
Sundance...
1. Please do not use all caps. It is concidered yelling in online ettiquette terms, which is just not nice, as well as being hard on the eyes.
2. The walls were not lined with egg crate, which is a flimsy (card)board and would've never passed any public building codes, let alone fire codes. The walls were made out of standard construction wood and plaster, the same as most houses, and decorated in a club decor.
3. The club had just passed it's annual fire inspection by the Fire Marshal two months ago in December of 2002, and was fully up to code (as posted on CNN).
As mentioned before, the sprinkler system is not required if alternative measures are taken.
There even was a report of a fireman stating on the news that if there had been a sprinkler system then they would not have shown up until someone called 911. With the set up they used, the fire department was there faster than that. Also in an interview a fireman stated that he doubts with as fast and hot as the fire moved that it would have helped. There have been several instances of fire where sprinklers haven't helped. People are obsessing over the idea of sprinklers in looking for scapegoats and reasonings where there are none. It was a horrible accident.
4. Read my above statment on pyrotechnics and safety not being the same as fire spinners and safety. Here is where the miscommunication comes into play. For Pyrotechnics to be used indoors (and sometimes outdoors), the standard safety protocal is to have a fire authority on hand unless otherwise directed. I even had to do this for a show I had at a multiple thousand seating arena with 3 story high ceilings. It is possible they were told by the manager that because the building passed a recent inspection that they would be alright.
5. The fire effects in use actually were only supposed to reach a height of 10 feet, just so you know. (And there is no such word as Exportive. When I did a dictionary.com search, just to make sure, for it the closest thing that came up in any variety of spellings was Explorative.)
6. The band is not being tried with manslaughter. In fact, course of legal action is still under debate and no definitive measures have been decided upon as of yet. The band, and everyone even remotely involved has been subpeona'd for questioning. The owners have not been co-operating with the police. THe band has. What does that say? And I would like to point out, both owners made it out alive. One member of the band did not.
For futher updates and details, CNN online is/was doing a good job of reliable coverage. They have a great article on there now about how the RI clubs are all being re-inspected and that no pyrotechnics can be used in clubs with a 300 person or less capacity.
There is no need to spread more hysteria, especially in all caps.
[ 27. February 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: Pele ]
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
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