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Forums > Social Discussion > Airport Security Tightens, UK 10/08/06

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Asena
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Asena

What a Bummer
Location: Shatfield, Hertfordshire

Total posts: 3224
Posted:For those who don't know, or intend on flying out from the UK today...



16 men were arrested in connection with suspected terrorist activities today. The plan as such, to blow up explosives in the hand luggage midflight. Due to that, nearly every UK airport is on max security. Queues, for check-in and going through security gates galour. Also, changes to whats allowed in hand luggage has changed, and only the following items are allowed:



 Written by: BTI UK Travel Alert



UK AIRPORTS BAGGAGE POLICY



Bulletin issued by BTI UK Travel Alert Service:

09.05 10 August 2006



Please be advised of the following development(s) that may impact your travel program:



Further to todays national security alert at UK airports, the Department for Transport (DoT) has issued additional security measures. With immediate effect, the following arrangements apply to all passengers starting their journey at a UK airport and to those transferring between flights at a UK airport.



All cabin baggage must be processed as hold baggage and carried in the hold of passenger aircraft departing UK airports.



Passengers may take through the airport security search point, in a single (ideally transparent) plastic carrier bag, only the following items. Nothing may be carried in pockets:



-pocketsize wallets and pocket size purses plus contents (for example money, credit cards, identity cards etc (not handbags));

-travel documents essential for the journey (for example passports and travel tickets);

-prescription medicines and medical items sufficient and essential for the flight (eg diabetic kit), except in liquid form unless verified as authentic.

-spectacles and sunglasses, without cases.

-contact lens holders, without bottles of solution.

-for those travelling with an infant: baby food, milk (the contents of each bottle must be tasted by the accompanying passenger) and sanitary items sufficient and essential for the flight (nappies, wipes, creams and nappy disposal bags).

-female sanitary items sufficient and essential for the flight, if unboxed (eg tampons, pads, towels and wipes).

-tissues (unboxed) and/or handkerchiefs

-keys (but no electrical key fobs)



All passengers must be hand searched, and their footwear and all the items they are carrying must be x-ray screened.



Pushchairs and walking aids must be x-ray screened, and only airport-provided wheelchairs may pass through the screening point.



In addition to the above, all passengers boarding flights to the USA and all the items they are carrying, including those acquired after the central screening point, must be subjected to a secondary search at the boarding gate. Any liquids discovered must be removed from the passenger.



There are no changes to current hold baggage security measures.



Regrettably, significant delays at airports are inevitable. Passengers are being asked to allow themselves plenty of extra time and to ensure that other than the few permitted items listed above; all their belongings are placed in their hold baggage and checked in.





Thoughts anyone?


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:And besides, if it's really THIS dangerous, then all flights need to be stopped. We know that airport security sucks and that it would be simple to smuggle liquids on a plane, so the safest thing to do is to stop all air travel.

Sure it would bankrupt several major airlines, cripple the economy, and result in a major rearrangement of society when people can no longer travel across oceans, but at least we'd be SAFE!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: NY Times


News of the latest plot on Thursday set off a huge security clamp-down at British airports - particularly at Heathrow in London, Europe's busiest - that resulted in equally huge delays and cancellations in flight schedules. Two airlines, British Airways and Ryanair, warned Saturday that unless security procedures were accelerated, airports would no longer be able to cope with the hundreds of thousands of passengers trying to fly out of Britain every day.

Mr. Reid hinted the security clamp-down may be eased, saying it was "time limited." But he did not say when.

He also said the latest plot provided fresh evidence to support police demands for counterterrorism laws to be amended to permit detention of people without trial or charge for 90 days. The current limit is 28 days.




The emphasis is mine, and both illustrate points I've been trying to make.



Can I have a go? cool

 Written by: NY Times

Mr. Blair is on vacation in the Caribbean. His absence has been criticized by adversaries who contend that if the plot was as serious as Mr. Reid and others maintain, he should return home.



He can't use the delays and cancellations as an excuse: it's not as if he has to fly Ryanair ubblol

Similarly, happy as he is to approve of them, it's not as if security clamp downs and the issues of their inconvenience and ineffectiveness on any other kind of public transport, such as London Underground, affect him personally...


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Another quote to illustrate the points I've made:
 Written by: BBC

"The goal of these terrorists and extremists is not just to kill but also to disrupt the economic life of Britain," Ryanair's chief executive Michael O'Leary said.



And yet they've managed to do just that without having to kill a single soul.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:
 Written by: Lightning


Now, explain to me, someone how a paperback book is dangerous when a passport isn't.





Carve out the pages between the covers and use it to store explosives?

A passport could hold very little, whereas a book can contain quite a bit.

Plus, of course, the point of passports is that they are perused by customs officers, making them unsuitable for smuggling through the small amount of explosives they could hold.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



 Written by: Lightning


Now, explain to me, someone how a paperback book is dangerous when a passport isn't.





Carve out the pages between the covers and use it to store explosives?




Then shake out the book? X-ray it and note the cavity in the middle?

You can also store explosives in your stomach. Maybe all passengers should be subjected to X-rays before boarding the plane.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave



A passport could hold very little, whereas a book can contain quite a bit.







But that could be irrelevant if you think about it vice versa.



If a remote control ignition device will fit inside the kind of small personal appliances which are nowadays common, it's possible that one could fit into a passport, rather than the explosive itself.



The most suitable place which such a device could be inserted into a UK passport would most likely be at the the thickest part: the back cover, neighbouring the biometric chip we're so often told will help combat such terrorism.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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steaks
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

steaks

former manc tour guide
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1909
Posted:All of the measures implimented at UK airports apply to STAFF as well as passengers. ANyone here have any idea how many people that is that need to be screened in one day alone at a major UK airport?
There are a lot of staff and a large proportion of domestic flights take off between 6 and 8am, which also happens to be when the majority of staff start their shifts. Meaning you ahvea concentration of people trying to get through a limited space within a very limited time frame.
The decision to exclude all non-essential luggage from being take on as hand luggage is to make the whole process easier for everyone, staff and passengers alike. The less that has to be screened the easier and quicker the screening process will be.

Yes it is a money spinning scam that you have to replace things like books and drinks from shops within the departure lounge. But if it makes the whole process quicker, easier and safer then I for one am willing to allow it.

I myself have worked in an international airport and have both family and friends that currently work there. there are indescrepancies within the system and they are getting things wrong, but they are only human beings at the end of the day and what is and isnt allowed is being revised every few hours.
My advice to anyone planning on travelling in/out/through a Uk airport anytime soon should check with the authoritaries at the Airport they are travelling through on the day of travel to make sure they know what is and isnt allowed.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: steaks


Yes it is a money spinning scam that you have to replace things like books and drinks from shops within the departure lounge. But if it makes the whole process quicker, easier and safer then I for one am willing to allow it.



Quicker: flights are being canceled it's taking so long
Easier: Ever try to entertain a child for 7-16 hours with your bare hands and a passport?
Safer: We have yet to see evidence that this is improving safety one iota.

The only way to be 100% safe about this is if every passenger must remove ALL clothing under supervision, submit to full-body X-rays (to make sure they don't have implanted explosives), and then proceed to the aircraft. Of course this leads to a lot of cancer in frequent fliers and deaths from air travel skyrocket while terrorism plummets, but at least we'd be safer. And passengers with medical needs requiring in-flight medication (insulin, for example) would not be allowed to fly.

You may think I'm being silly, but it would be SIMPLE to disguise the very liquids as prescription medications and smuggle them through. It would be very easy to implant a chip. It would be slightly more complicated to implant an explosive device in someone's abdominal cavity and put it on a timer.

At every clampdown we only provide them with an obstacle and eventually we'll hit a point of diminishing returns where they can STILL blow up a plane in spite of impractically strict security.

The solution is exactly what has been done: good intelligence.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



My argument is that this is a knee-jerk reaction. That banning paperback books and lipstick isn't doing anything --not jack squat-- to make people safer.




Nope you're wrong.

Even if you couldn't easily hide a sharp plactic blade in a paperback book and easily keep two bullets in a lipstick container. It's the amount of time and security it takes to deal with folks like you who "only want to bring a..."

I saw a 'security expert' (he had better credentials than that) on TV this morning and he said, quite bluntly, "From a purely security standpoint, it's absolutely insane that we let anyone carry anything on the plane at all." He then went on to logically say that we need to balance security needs with the needs of the passengers but often disagree where that balance point should be.

Saying "You can't smuggle anything dangerous in a paper back book or lipstick container" is wrong.

Saying "I'm willing to sacrifice some security to make the flight more bearable" is a valid arguement.

The security guy said that there have been 4 main ways that have been attempted to bring down planes (suggesting that there have been attempts or plots that maybe haven't been public but whatever)

1) Bomb in the Luggage
2) Bomb on board
3) Invade the Cockpit
4) Missile

3 out of 4 of those are solely dependant on airport security. THE TERRORISTS chose to use airplanes on 9/11 and THE TERRORISTS continue to plot to use airplanes.

Can't we can go 6 months without a major attempt to blow up an airline before we bitch about airport security?

I'm really surprised about your views on this one Mike. 9/11 actually happened. And 9/11 was 100% preventable if airport security had been better at the time.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:so in my point of view, the modern terrorist need only make a threat. why expend life to cause uproar and panic, just call in a bomb threat ubbidea


strategically speaking main possible targets would be communications and water supplies.


bringing down communications is simple in theory, a elite group of computer hackers, a virus in the right place and total collapse of the comms through out the world....and as the powers that be class it, anarchy


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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Im sorryim not going to read anymore, im half way through page 4.

Theres no reason to complain about any of the restrictions, im sorry but if you think its hasstle and your giving up on the idea of flying to england or a destination because your being inconvenianced a little, your having things too easy.

Say your going on holliday, you put up with 4 hours or so (or more) of boredom and waiting around to get through security, then when your off the plane you have a weeks holliday (or something) to enjoy. Its small potatoes.

Honestly...


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: ravehead


so in my point of view, the modern terrorist need only make a threat. why expend life to cause uproar and panic, just call in a bomb threat ubbidea



Naaa... most government buildings get fake bomb threats all the time. There were plenty of fake bomb threats before 9/11 but I think it was mostly the actual smashing of the planes that got people upset.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:yeah, fake bomb threats are really common, and were even more so in public schools after the columbine shootings in 1999.

Notice they havn't actually expended life yet.... but i'm sure they're plenty willing to, and I'd bet they always will be....

I don't see why 4-26 hours of boredom and discomfort shouldn't turn me away from flying to the UK. Especially if I can fly other places and not have that problem. Is it as safe? Well, no, probably not, altho US airport security is pretty tight these days... certainly loads more so than england was, and they've done a pretty good job streamlining it to (nonetheless i've almost always gotten searched because i pack my carry-ons pretty densly, and they have found tweezers or other similar things I've forgotten about a couple times.

But I'd rather take my chances with the intelligence services then watch them cripple the economy of britain, personally. But I'm not british, so I don't have a right to make that call. I would make that call for my own (admittedly messed up) country in a second tho.

What seems weird to me is why me and doc lightning are the only people who seem to feel this way? Is it cultural, or what? Because we're not even arguing that drastically different of positions, tho different they are, we're also pointing to a different point on the continuum of diminishing returns and saying "thats acceptable, that isn't"

Nonetheless I am drawn back to the quote we (that is, many US citizens) grew up on, that he that would trade freedom for safety deserves neither....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Politicians are getting so scared that they are jumping at shadows. All this extra security is just a faade to make people think we are in still in control.

I dont think ALL this extra security makes much difference. Like, I head on the radio yesterday that two grenades were found in Australian soldiers bag after landing, when he returned home on a commercial flight.

Makes you wonder whats really going on.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: NYC


I'm really surprised about your views on this one Mike. 9/11 actually happened. And 9/11 was 100% preventable if airport security had been better at the time.



I disagree. If you've been keeping track of the post-mortem investigations, various intelligence agencies knew damned well that 9/11 was going to happen, but various institutional and political barriers kept information from getting shared.

If INTELLIGENCE had been better at the time, it wouldn't have happened.

Plastic blades can be concealed in apparel, too, NYC. So can explosives. In fact, every single one of these restrictions can be easily circumvented with just a bit of inventiveness. Want me to list them, or shall I let you come up with the go-arounds on your own?

But that's OK. Britain's air transport system has been completely crippled by a plot that hadn't even gotten off the planning stages, Britain's economy is going to suffer bitterly, and Al-Qaeda didn't even have to do anything, really.

We're doing it ourselves. Why should they even bother with planning real attacks? Instead of suicide bombers, have suicide stand-ins. Saps who will pretend to plan an attack, get caught, and then cause us to keep doing this sort of BS to ourselves.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: Stone


I dont think ALL this extra security makes much difference. Like, I head on the radio yesterday that two grenades were found in Australian soldiers bag after landing, when he returned home on a commercial flight.



i *think* that was a chartered flight from East Timor. i dont think there is going to be a lot of security leaving a place like that, and i'd suspect the only reason he got searched was cause he'd flown in from a different country. generally i dont think soldiers fly from places they've been doing service in on commercial flights.

 Written by: Doc Lightning

Plastic blades can be concealed in apparel



yep, i remember in highschool a friend made one that could easily have been leathal if somone had those tendencies.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning



WHAT two liquids? what do they look like? Clearly if the terrorists know, it's not dangerous to tell the public.





what, you want us to guess?

there's tonnes to choose from...

i'll go for: nitric acid and glycerine.

both clear and fairly innocuous, mix them on a plane, plane goes bang shrug





but as we've been saying all along THESE MEASURES ARE TEMPORARY.



they are only intended to stay in place until the intelligence and security services believe the immediate threat to air travel passengers has passed.



mike, you accused the security services/government/police of knee jerk reactions?



well, i say that its you who has the most jerky knees of all of us.



police state?

a situation thats inevitably leading to the dissolution of our liberty?



'reactionary boll0cks' might be a suitable definition here wink



if these measures were permanent (which is obviously totally impossible as baa has pointed out since they were brought in), i would be protesting them too but they quiter patently are not and never were - the security services always said that the measures would be in place for a 'limited time' only.



this morning, that is obviously being proved:



 Written by: bbc news



Home Secretary John Reid said the change was made because an attack was "highly likely" but not "imminent".



The change in the threat level means the ban on taking hand luggage on to flights from the UK has been lifted, although some restrictions remain.







attempting to polarise an issue like this is pointless mike.



security is required in our society, otherwise there would be no prisons and no police.



at times like this (i.e. when a major terrorist cell is brought down), it needs to be stepped up around the intended target to further discourage any leftover terrortists involved in the plot from launching a desperate last ditch attempt at pulling off the plan.



if four days of inconvenience to ensure the largest terrorist attack in history never happened, even in part, then i'm quite happy with it.



what i don't like is talk of using this situation to push the case for even tougher legislation against suspected terrorists.



28 days detention should be long enough - a case for prosecution should be built alongside the intelligence operation.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted: Written by: coleman



what i don't like is talk of using this situation to push the case for even tougher legislation against suspected terrorists.

28 days detention should be long enough - a case for prosecution should be built alongside the intelligence operation.


cole. x



One thing worth noting, too, is that most of us on this board were quite cognizant of everything going on 5 years ago on september 11th, and we (US citizens) all (most of us) remember the utter [censored] we were fed by the government then and since then.

At the time they "assured" us that we wouldn't be going to war or launching any stupid attacks as a result. Since then its been used to justify everything from wire tapping to monitoring library records and even allowing police to require you to identify yourself at random in public. I think its natural to assume draconian policies are only looking for a foothold, we still have the patriot act in place, after all. But its good to hear britain is calming down. (I just hope I don't have to remember to remove my tweezers from my hand luggge *again*... tongue)


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Kyrian


(I just hope I don't have to remember to remove my tweezers from my hand luggge *again*... tongue)



yeah, i can't imagine what i'd do if i had to face another international flight without tweezers - oh, the horror... eek tongue wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: coleman


 Written by: Doc Lightning


mike, you accused the security services/government/police of knee jerk reactions?

well, i say that its you who has the most jerky knees of all of us.

police state?
a situation thats inevitably leading to the dissolution of our liberty?

'reactionary boll0cks' might be a suitable definition here wink
 Written by:



Oh no, I stand by this one.

Suddenly in our country it's OK to hold people, even American Citizens, without trial, bond, or charges. It's OK to randomly search people in public spaces (the subway). It's OK for the government to keep track of who is checking out which books from the library.

None of this was OK on Sept. 10 2001. And every time something like this happens they come up with another "it's OK to..."

We'll talk about this in another 10 years, Cole. If talking is still OK then. wink


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:One more thing, if a terrorist attack is "highly likely" then why are they easing restrictions?

I'm still against them, but the hypocracy just stuns me.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:that last question can't be serious?

first you complain that the measures are too high and then when the threat level drops and the security measures are relaxed back towards those in place before the arrests, you question that too?

make up your mind mike - what exactly do you expect?

i'd really like to hear what you think the 'right' course of action would have been in these circumstances...?



 Written by: Doc Lightning



Suddenly in our country it's OK to hold people, even American Citizens, without trial, bond, or charges. It's OK to randomly search people in public spaces (the subway). It's OK for the government to keep track of who is checking out which books from the library.



None of this was OK on Sept. 10 2001. And every time something like this happens they come up with another "it's OK to..."





it wasn't sudden at all - we all saw it coming and said it was ridiculous at the time.



i spoke out against the patriot act in your country and moves like the proposed 90 day detention without charge in this country.



if i am approached by a policeman and asked to be searched, i would always insist that they gave me a good legal reason for that stop and search.



the criminal justice bill (our closest equivalent to the patriot act) gives unprecedented power to police but it still cannot be allowed to be abused.



as such, knowing what your rights are and ensuring that they are upheld is of paramount importance.



you know i agree with your overall point mike - that those in charge should not be allowed to flout their power over our liberty.



but equally, i feel that knee kerk liberal reactions to a course of action (which we have absolutely no way of confidently saying is pointless) devalues this side of the argument in the greater context.



you say 'none of this was acceptable on sept 10 2001 but that's simply not true - its just the case for americans.

this country has been plagued by terrorist attacks for years and as a result, had some of the tightest anti-terror laws in the world, long before america was woken up to the realities of terrorist attacks.





the bottom line is that living in a democracy comes complete with the assumption that the people must trust those in power to not abuse said power.



if this trust ever truly breaks down (which over the time period you are talking about could very well occur), we will approach a civil war, and that will signal a larger change to our way of life than a terrorist attack or threat ever could.





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: coleman


that last question can't be serious?




Of all people to miss sarcasm...oh the irony! ubblol


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: coleman


that last question can't be serious?




Of all people to miss sarcasm...oh the irony! ubblol



whoah! the words irony and sarcasm in the same post - isn't that like some kind of double negative situation?

i'm totally confused now.

what day is it and is it a yes means no or a no means yes day...? wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:back on topic and a constant reminder of the capitalist world we live in...



like mike said, in the end, its all about the money...



so, today's themes are "my finger is bigger than yours and i can point it better" and "won't somebody please think of the precious, precious money?!" rolleyes



and somewhat more interestingly, the home secretary has said that although he personally believes that 90 day detention of terror suspects is what the police require, reid said the current situation did not represent "a good time" to look at such measures.



that's fairly positive but also suggests that the government may well push for the extension again at some point...



the cases of the suspects currently being held could well figure highly in the resolution of this issue...





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pen Draven


Pen Draven

Unofficial Lord Of Confusion And Pirate Extrodinaire
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 1363
Posted:'the bottom line is that living in a democracy comes complete with the assumption that the people must trust those in power to not abuse said power. '

I think thats the issue Mr C,, theres one hell of a lot of us out there,, myself included that don't,, hell i wouldn't trust half of them to deliver my milk lol


Some men see things and say why....

I Dream of things that never were and say Why Not....?

Oh No I'm going to get Shot Alive if he finds out - DA wink

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:when this feeling of dissent becomes the majority opinion throughout society, then the f**kers will rue the day!

until then, we all have to just plod along with next to bugger-all choice about how we live as a nation.

as long as we have organistaions tasked with keeping the people (of the society) 'in check', trust will always be an issue.

abuse of power is a problem humans have always suffered from and will most likely have for a long time to come...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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The Tea Fairy
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...

Total posts: 853
Posted: Written by: coleman


when this feeling of dissent becomes the majority opinion throughout society, then the f**kers will rue the day!




Judging by Have Your Say (BBC website) there's quite a lot of mistrust and public dissent, but sadly no revolutions as yet.

Even all the people who want rid of Tony (and George) seem scared of 'what the Tories will do if they get back in power'. Quite sad that it seems to come down to a 'lesser of two evils' type scenario. Just my two cents. smile


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:the ideals of democracy are disappearing fast.

deny tyrrany - bring on the anarchy!

[can anyone tell i'm a de sade fan...? wink ubblol ]


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:History aside, I think it'll be quite some time before the brits decide on a civil war, even if 80% of the population supports it tongue Ah, for shame. Well its all entertaining at least, much like my work. Here's hoping we survive the entertainment beerchug

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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