• You must now select Courier Delivery if you wish to receive items before Christmas.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 1...2021222324...44
FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete Topic

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, assault weapons were used in the Columbine massacre. The kids got them from a gun show. I sincerely hope, as you say, that the NRA doesn't represent the vast majority of good people out there.

Stout, Im just about to hop off this merry-go-round. Thanks for your enlightened comments, and the link to Gun sales surge on change in Missouri laws.

 Written by:

A new Missouri law that eliminated a time-consuming permit process has fueled a surge in handgun sales across the St. Louis area. But perhaps the biggest driver is that gun buyers have generally known about the impending change since it was passed by lawmakers earlier this year as part of the so-called Castle Doctrine legislation. That prompted many prospective buyers to put off purchases until now.



I though this article by Michelle Cottle, Shoot First, Regret Legislation Later, May 2005, gave a balanced account of the Make My Day Law.

The home is my castle laws originated in Oklahoma, which was in the grip of a violent burglary epidemic when Dr Sommer's home was invaded. I have nothing against people protecting their home and family from intruders. However, the Make My Day Law, Shoot First - Regret Later, Make My Day Better, Licence to Murder or Vigilant laws take self defense to a new low.

 Written by:

In November 2006 the law was expanded substantially, to give a presumption of reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm from a person who had unlawfully entered or was in the process of unlawfully entering a dwelling, residence or vehicle. This expanded the circumstances in which deadly force could be used, and shifted the burden to the state to prove, beyond a resonable doubt, that you were not in fear of death before they could convict you for shooting a home invader (basically an impossible burden of proof for the state to meet if you keep your mouth shut, unless you manage to tie the guy up before you shoot him.



While some are quick to point out that the law was an unqualified success since burglary declined by almost half in Oklahoma. In 1987, there were 58,333 cases; in 2000, just 31,661. However, when I think of an epidemic of burglarys, I think the cause is probably drug related. So, attributing the fall in burglaries entirely to the introduction of the Make My Day Law would seem to overlook the impact that the police had on reducing methamphetamine production in the same time frame.

 Written by:

Methamphetamine, the biggest drug threat to the state of Oklahoma, is available throughout Oklahoma, and its abuse is uptrending. Violence associated with the production, distribution, and abuse of meth poses a significant threat to the safety of Oklahoma's residents. Meth production is increasing in the state of Oklahoma, and lab seizures increased dramatically from the year of 1995 through 2001.



Crime in the USA fell from the mid 1980s to 2005. The NRA would have us believe this was due to a loosing of the CCW laws, but it could also be explained by Reagans drug policy war on drugs.

 Written by:

In the U.S., the War on Drugs is causing a prison overcrowding problem. In 1996, 59.6% of prisoners were drug-related criminals. U.S. population grew by about +25% from 1980 to 2000. In that same 20 year time period, U.S. prison population tripled. To make room in prison for incoming drug users and dealers, all inmates, including violent criminals are having their sentences shortened or are being paroled early.



Of course the NRA, always quick to run down law enforcement, has already pointed out that the War on Drugs was just more useless laws and more waste of money that didnt work.

Also dont forget to get a copy of the NRA's, Wayne LaPierre's new book "The Global War on Your Guns". An attack on the United Nations - Inside the UN Plan To Destroy the Bill of Rights. Only $25.99 at a bookstore near you!


Adios Amigos


grouphug



Hi Ho Silver



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:and how many deaths will it take til he knows, that too many people have died?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I think much of this could be solved with mandatory psych exams that are reevaluated periodically...

(We had a police man shoot a bunch of people in Crandon last year, now we are considering exams for police officers as mandatory-I think it's sort of a duh moment but good cause then we could maybe stop some of the police corruption as well as stopping unbalanced folk)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: USA Today

MADISON, Wis. (AP) The online gun dealer who sold a weapon to the Virginia Tech shooter said it was an unnerving coincidence that he also sold handgun accessories to the man who killed five students at Northern Illinois University.

Eric Thompson said his website, www.topglock.com, sold two empty 9 mm Glock magazines and a Glock holster to Steven Kazmierczak on Feb. 4, just 10 days before the 27-year-old opened fire in a classroom and killed five before committing suicide.

Another website run by Thompson's company, www.thegunstore.com, also sold a Walther .22-caliber handgun to Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people in April on the Virginia Tech campus before killing himself.

"I'm still blown away by the coincidences," Thompson said Friday. "I'm shaking. I can't believe somebody would order from us again and do this."

His company, TGSCOM Inc., based in Green Bay, shipped the order Monday, and records of the sale provided to The Associated Press by Thompson show Kazmierczak received the order Tuesday.



the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:So? There's nothing wrong with his site or business FireTom.

Just so you guys know, there was an officer on scene in 30 seconds of the initial shots and the entire campus was locked down in 7 minutes


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:So? Nobody said anything, Lurch.

Did these 30sec/ 7min change anything for the 22 victims?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Do you just post things to be devisive?

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Me? No

Why did you post that story then FireTom? It seems that you were trying to make some point. I'm willing to bet both those people have shopped at Wal-Mart at some point too.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Why would I not post it, Lurch. There is no point in it, as there is no ending to the US shootings:

 Written by: News

Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:02 PM ET

CHICAGO (AFP) - Five people are dead, including the gunman, following a shooting in a small town in Tennessee, police said.

"It's our understanding that it involves some type of domestic dispute," Bristol police spokeswoman Stephanie Hoskins said.

The shooting broke out about 10:40 am (1540 GMT) in a public housing complex where a number of elderly people live, Hoskins told AFP.

The man sped away from the complex in a pickup truck, then crashed the truck and subsequently fled on foot.

His body was discovered outside a short time afterwards, dead of "an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound," Hoskins said.



the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:There is no end to gun violence all around the world

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Not true.

The incidence of gun violence is significantly higher in the USA, compared to other western countries.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Come on now guys, the problem is not gun violence, it's violence in general. Norway Sweden and Switzerland are some of the safest countries, yet some of the most heavily armed. We've been over all this before.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fact verses opinion.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Not really, Switzerland has a markedly lower murder rate than the UK and Australia. And is definitely more heavily armed than the US. Same with Norway, although Nationmaster doesn't seem to have data for the Swedes.. But again, we've been over all this before

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, the gun discussion is over for me.



I just making a point, and I made it.



Well, two actually. One more than I intended.



wink

EDITED_BY: Stone (1204247324)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:What do you mean not true. I just said there is gun violence all around the world not that it was more or less prevalent anywhere.

And of course there is more than one way to skin a cat


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:...keep ignoring the facts...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, you are right. I should not have said not true. That only confused things. The point I was making is very simple - The incidence of gun violence is significantly higher in the USA, compared to other western countries.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:I've been saying that the US is more violent this whole time Stone. The real question is whether gun ownership to violence has an actual correlation. I would suggest that since I just listed off 3 countries with higher per capita gun ownership than the US, and lower violent crimes committed with said firearms, that it does not.

There is more gun violence here because there is more violence. The guns are not the cause.

You may like to know that I just purchased another gun about a week ago. I'll even post a picture if you want to see it.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Lurch, read the title of this thread.

It's about US gun laws.

You admit yourself that the US is more violent than other countries (in which the gun per capita rate is higher than in the US, but there are less gun related crimes). "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." (NRA) wink So (according to you and the NRA) the problem in the US is not the guns, but the people.

I side you on that one. It's not as if there are "evil guns" trying to find their ways into the hands of violent people. Guns do hold some principal energy (IMO) but there's a key/lock principle that has to come into effect.

Therefore it's not the guns, but the laws that have guns legally owned by violent people. Guns are not the cause, but the catalyst. [sic] It's irresponsible to keep these laws in effect.

NRA = "no reasonable approach"


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Well now to be fair FireTom after 650 posts I think this thread has expanded it's topic a little. Especially since we're not even discussing US gun laws we're discussing violence.

The problem *is* with the people. The main problem with gun violence is also NOT the legally owned guns, by law abiding citizens. The majority of people are good, it's irresponsible to disarm the a population. It's irresponsible to remove the right to self defense, and any legal means to do so, up to and including deadly force. I know you guys expect your government/police to protect you in all circumstances, but that's simply not possible.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Guns hold no negative energy. They are inanimate objects and the only engery they have is that which people assign to them. Anything else is crap

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch




You may like to know that I just purchased another gun about a week ago. I'll even post a picture if you want to see it.



Yeah, post it, I wouldn't mind having a look.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Lurch



Come on now guys, the problem is not gun violence, it's violence in general. Norway Sweden and Switzerland are some of the safest countries, yet some of the most heavily armed. We've been over all this before.





Have any of the aniti-gunners addressed this earlier in the thread- if so, roughly which page was it on?



If they haven't addressed it, perhaps they might now?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Lurch, I see after more than 650 posts this thread seems to go in circles wink

Certainly a polite society is one that's "armed with smiles"...
Certainly a 'working' society is one that is not in need of guns (with the emphasis on need)...
And I expect 'my' government to do is to prevent guns to get into the "wrong hands" under all circumstances. This is not always possible - I understand.

However, this one is an inanimate object, too:


Non-Https Image Link


Why is the US having a problem with Iran and North Korea getting a few of them? Keyword to ponder upon here is "categorical imperative", but I'm sounding patronizing.

I could post a few other pictures of inanimate objects, to show you that they do have some kind of 'energy' and I'm absolutely certain you would agree, but it's a PG board wink

Yes, Lurch post the picture of your new baby - I don't mind. Is it equally dramatic as your avatar?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:I don't disagree that a polite society should be "armed with smiles." But that "polite" society needs to be able to stand up for itself when smiles no longer work. "All that's needed for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

It's interesting that you brought up nuclear arms. Do you not believe that the Mutually Assured Destruction paradigm is functional? I would imagine it has saved us from nuclear war in circumstances where "talking things out" had already been exhausted.

And no, these are just photos, although I could make them more dramatic if you'd like wink


Non-Https Image Link



Non-Https Image Link


OWD: I believe FireTom brought up the firearm violence discrepancies for Switzerland back on about page 5. But when I bring it up that's usually about the time they remind me this is only about US laws umm


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

Delete

Dragon_Drafin


member


Total posts: 51
Posted:I am going to respond to the OP only in this reply. I have not read the entirety of this topic.

Unfortunately the NY Times does not quote the entire law(s) that this article reports on. It does paraphrase and that is dangerous reporting.

Also, Florida is not the entire USA. This is not a Federal law it is a State law. If it were a Federal law then the title of your post would be less inaccurate.

Also the gun laws of the US and its States are far from legalized murder. One law or one segment of the law may have some resemblance to legalized murder but not the entire gun law section of Federal and State laws.

Generalization is just as dangerous as paraphrasing.

The US takes the role of fire arms in our country very seriously. You cannot say anything either way about guns and gun control without sparking a heated debate even among people of similar demographics.

Here is my opinion. Nobody has the right to cause harm to me or others. However, I have the right to defend myself and the responsibility as a citizen of the human race to defend those who cannot otherwise defend their self.

The intent of the law is give those who have self defense situations forced upon them by intruders into their home and people who are bent on harming them on the streets a legal leg to stand on . This is a good thing. Would you as a victim not want the law on your side if you were forced to defend yourself? I know I would.

In the case of Mr. Rosenbloom and Mr. Allen the second shot was not in self defense and it is up to a jury to decide if the first shot was. Once Mr. Rosenbloom was on the ground after being shot once he was no longer any threat. The law should not protect Mr. Allen in the case of the second shot. I do not feel that the law was properly followed or enforced in this case.

However a law that protects me while I am protecting myself and others is something that all countries should have. Even to the extent of me using lethal force be it from a firearm or a Narsil replica.


Delete

Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Dragon Drafin,

Welcome to HOP Discussion.

You said:

 Written by

However a law that protects me while I am protecting myself and others is something that all countries should have. Even to the extent of me using lethal force be it from a firearm or a Narsil replica.



Im thinking that your advice, re gun laws in other countries, would carry a lot more weight if it wasnt for the extremely high rate of gun violence in the USA.

I mean, countries that have sensible gun laws, have significantly less gun violence compared to the USA.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

Delete

Dragon_Drafin


member


Total posts: 51
Posted:Stone, thank you very much for the warm welcome. smile

True there is an abundance of gun violence. I mean in the early 90's we had more than 100k kids carrying guns through war zones we called public schools. (no real data on that, just a quote from a song but probably not far from the truth. )

Though to be honest the comment that you quoted me on wasn't specifically directed at gun laws (though I know this discussion is). Just that laws should be in place to protect those who are only defending themselves.


Delete

faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:what isn't sensible about our laws?

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

Page: 1...2021222324...44

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [gun law* quot license murder quot] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > POI > Partner Poi > Partner Poi Suicides (aka Murder Suicide) *help/resource murder suicide   ...
2. Forums > US Gun laws are "License to murder" [1 reply]
3. Forums > weird laws [8 replies]
4. Forums > the NEW smoking laws [103 replies]
5. Forums > Know the score as regards the law?? [10 replies]

     Show more..