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Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:Lets see now,

Your Bureau of Justice Statistics link is dead, but regardless, look at the charts. Gun ownership has been doing nothing but going up since the 70's, and crime is dropping. I'm not saying that guns are a magical solution to solve all crime, I'm saying that an actual correlation between gun ownership and gun crime is not there. There are other causes for the numbers you've presented.

As I've said before, it's responsibility and safety we need to be teaching, not that guns will kill everything in sight. You cite school shootings as examples of guns gone wrong, but you're forgetting, or ignoring the fact that there are far more guns in the rural community, where children are introduced to them properly at a younger age, and have a healthy dose of respect for the weapons. There are very few schoolyard shootings in these areas, instead the majority of these acts occur in the inner city where peoples introduction and ideas of guns are based of people like you, screaming their 'evilness' and the media and entertainment industries glorifying the violence done with them. Maybe if you had half a clue about the REAL gun culture of the US you would think differently.

I don't think you should separate the brain into 'primitive' and complex areas. It is far too complicated for us to fully understand all the interactions at this point. Interpersonal violence is definably human (odd that people call gross atrocities 'inhumane' eh?). No doubt there is interspecies violence throughout the animal kingdom. But rarely do those conflicts result in death outside of Humans. Rarely are such fights unprovoked or irrational. There are very definable rules to the interspecies violence in the rest of the world, not so with mankind. How then can you define our violence as primitive? You're right, with training people can learn to control their violent tendencies (most people at least). Do you honestly believe that owning, possessing, or seeing a gun somehow negates that training and life experience and inhibits your ability to control yourself?

 Written by:

You choose violence. Thats your choice. Though, we all have the potential to evolve, its written about in all the Holy Books. Mahatma Gandhi, the greatest leader of all time, drove the British from India with non-violence. I think pre 1960s Bhutan would have been a peaceful place to live.



You define Ghandi as the "greatest leader of all time"? Interesting.. He hardly deserves to be placed on this godlike pedestal that you've placed him on.. Time Magazine cites their top 20 'Leaders and Revolutionaries' And indeed Ghandi is on there, but the real Ghandi is not as 'perfect' as people think.

[quote=Time]Gandhi began by believing that the politics of passive resistance and nonviolence should be effective in any situation, at any time, even against a force as malign as Nazi Germany. Later, he was obliged to revise his opinion, and concluded that while the British had responded to such techniques because of their own nature, other oppressors might not.



Gandhian nonviolence is widely believed to be the method by which India gained independence. (The view is assiduously fostered inside India as well as outside it.) Yet the Indian revolution did indeed become violent, and this violence so disappointed Gandhi that he stayed away from the independence celebrations in protest. Moreover, the ruinous economic impact of World War II on Britain, and as British writer Patrick French says in his book Liberty or Death: India's Journey to Independence and Division the gradual collapse of the Raj's bureaucratic hold over India from the mid-'30s onward did as much to bring about freedom as any action of Gandhi's. It is probable, in fact, that Gandhian techniques were not the key determinants of India's arrival at freedom. They gave independence its outward character and were its apparent cause, but darker and deeper historical forces produced the desired effect.




To drop a few other names in this list of 'great leaders and revolutionaries' would include Ho chi Minh, Gorbachev, Lenin, Hitler, and Ayatullah Khomeini, right along side MLK, Pope John Paul II, and Eleanor Roosevelt. Clearly violence or non-violence is not a deciding factor on who is a greater leader. It is a deciding factor on who you personally deem a more moral leader.

Not all AK's are 'decommissioned' to semi-auto status, and those that are are done so in a way to not allow easy modifications back. Of course someone with the proper knowledge, tools, and skills could modify a gun, but someone with that level of skills could probably make a gun from scratch. It's beyond the level of most people, and most criminals.

The NRA didn't support the Clinton ban *because* it was mainly cosmetic. Isn't that obvious? They are about maintaining the rights of the people, why would they endorse a clearly biased, and poorly thought out plan? You know as well as I do that democracy only goes so far, and there are very few government officials who actually do everything they say they are going to do. Those who have strong standings, in virtually any stance are usually the first to get rooted out. Those who can work the system, and appease the most people are 'voted' back. It's far from a perfect system.

How does it look like the NRA is running America? I'm very confused on this one. They're not more concerned with selling guns than anyones safety. The NRA itself has nothing to do with the sale of guns. They are about the promotion of safe and responsible gun use. That is why they endorse PRACTICAL bills like gun locks with weapons, and why they employ thousands of safety instructors. The Clinton ban did little more than waste taxpayers money.

Clinton was a decent President, better than our current, but he played the system as well. He's the one who instituted the policy for 'regime change' in Iraq, as well as conducting bombing campaigns against Saddam. but I'm not going to get into all that.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:After the last rash of shootings, the NRA chapter in Milwaukee got behind a bill in regards to the secondhand sales of weapons and a necessary registry for said sales. It didn't pass, but they had commercials and banners and all showing support for the safe ownership of guns and support for the bill.

Hey, Lurch, do you have a citation for the gun ownership being up and crime going down? Is it stats from two different sources?

I do have issue with the whole we chose violence thing. I didn't bring it up before, but now...Most people do not choose violence. They may choose not being a victim. They may choose to defend themselves. It is not fair to condemn someone because of the situation they live in. People who try to create peace are not excluded from being shot.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, I think someday you will wake up and realize that all you are doing is trying to convince yourself that guns are not evil.



Correlation does not imply causation. Try this link to the U.S. Department of Justice - Guns Used in Crime report. Its a no brainer, take it or leave it.



 Written by:

About 1.3 million U.S. residents faced an assailant armed with a firearm during 1993. Eighty-six percent of the time (in 1.1 million violent crimes) the weapons were handguns. Seventy percent of the 24,526 murders in 1993 were committed with firearms, of which four out of five were with a handgun. Recent studies indicate that the use of large caliber semi-automatic handguns in homicides has been increasing. Almost 60 percent of the 2 million stolen gun reports in the FBI's National Crime Information Center files are handguns. Surveys of inmates show that they prefer concealable large- caliber guns, and that juvenile offenders appear to be more likely to possess semi-automatic weapons.







Lurch, its called the primitive part of the brain because its the oldest part of the human brain. Its the part we share with all vertebrates; some call it the reptilian brain. It controls flight and flight responses amongst other things. As I said before, Einstein put it well with Some people have been given a large brain by mistake, since for them the spinal cord would surely suffice. It reminds me of the American gun culture.



To suggest that the brain is too complicated for us to fully understand is not an argument; its an excuse to avoid thinking. Like, going to war is easier and way more fun than taking responsibility for the use of fuel.



Yes, I believe that possessing a gun, for so called self-defense, inhibits a persons ability to control themselves. You rely on a gun because you have no real power. When you have power you dont need a gun. That was why I said Gandhi was such a great leader, he had real power. Which is different to force. Ho Chi Minh drove the mighty America military machine from his country with bamboo and wire. Same in Iraq, a lot of military force, but no power. Can you see where the pattern starts?



Lurch, you asked how does it look like the NRA is running America?



If the NRA really cared about reducing gun violence in the community they would take some responsibility for it by supporting Clintons legislation, cosmetic or otherwise. Instead, they throw a hissy fit because they cant play with their AKs and Uzis anymore. So I ask you, what kind of a message does that send to kids? That AKs and Uzis are cool, and gun violence increases. By the way, the NRA did not support gunlocks with weapons, they only endorsed it as a compromise.



Anyhow, all you are saying is the NRA is maintaining the rights of the people to bear arms at any cost, including undermining the Government. To put it another way, why would any real honest, God fearing, person want to own an AK? Which, by your own admission, has no purpose for existence outside that of an assault rifle for military use. The so-called cosmetic bits being the all-important bits for real sustained fighting, nothing else.









faith, no one is condemning anyone because of anything. You dont strike me as a victim, far from it. Id suggest that guns violence is the result of social problems, not the solution to them. Unfortunately, its the people who make a difference, like Martin Luther King, JFK, and Abraham Lincoln, that are shot.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:They are a symptom, and to make them anything else is to give them too much power



and please note that the NRA tied to help pass legislation in our state to keep record of second hand sales



edit: And I have been a victim many times due to inadequate protection and then vicimized again by the legal system doing nothing.

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1184765724)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by:

To put it another way, why would any real honest, God fearing, person want to own an AK? Which, by your own admission, has no purpose for existence outside that of an assault rifle for military use.



Well that isn't very fair now Stone. In your twisted little world there is no use for guns other than to kill people. You can't seem to comprehend any other purpose for owning a weapon. I never said there was no purpose for them. And before you start discussing what and who kids look to for role-models you might want to examine the media and entertainment industries. Where do you see the NRA wanting children to have AK's? I must have missed that one.


And yes, correlation does not imply causation, think long and hard about that while going over your previous statistics.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Enough! *Notifies mods*

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon

Total posts: 929
Posted:huh? What is there to notify a mod about?

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:shrug

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, good to see some people from the Milwaukee chapter of the NRA doing something to reduce unnecessary gun violence. Bill Requiring Background Check For Private Gun Sales To Be Introduced Tuesday

 Written by:

At Badger Ammo, owner Mick Beatovic is a lifelong member of the NRA, but is an unlikely ally for the three moms. Beatovic said the NRA believes the bill is another form of gun control, but Beatovic supports this bill because, he said, it's aimed at keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

"We'll probably take some heat, from the pro-gun base, but sometimes you got to break some eggs," Beatovic said.



clap

Unfortunately, this is not the typical NRA stand on this issues, the NRA see any cracking down on the illegal gun trafficking as a infringement of their rights to bear arms. Badger State Seeking to Ban Private Firearms Sales!

Commercials and banners showing support for the safe ownership of guns are part of a different NRA campaign. A campaign to increase gun sales and any cost to the community. The NRA sees anything that reduces their ability to play with guns as an infringement of their rights to bear arms. Even the introduction of gunlocks were seen an infringement of their rights.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I have pointed it out before:



In the past of this thread I got off trail myself and might have intimidated Lurch. I might have hurt his feelings and those of Faith. When I got aware I apologised, because I clearly got carried away in an emotionally heated debate. I apologised in public, clearly notable by all participants of this discussion, visitors to and members of the board - after doing so I tried my best to avoid any of that and keep my arguments to the subject of the discussion.



Neither do I wish to be called an "idiot", nor do I like to have my prepositions called outright "silly". Lurch and Faith may both not share my views on gun ownership and they're entitled to express their views, bring arguments foreward that proove their opinion - but I would call on them to do this in a respectful way possible.



If they have no arguments left, that back up their views, then I ask not switch to intimidation. The same respect and politeness that they demand for themself, should be paid to others (you may recognize that behind bits and bytes we all are human beings here).



On top of this page I posted a brief summary of arguments that tackle the present gun laws of the United States and so far there is nothing substantial that neither Lurch, nor Faith bring foreward to counter them.



Two or more people are looking at the same thing and see something completely different. The stories and examples I read from Faith all made me even more confident that gun ownership in the US is twisted.



The fact that the NRA is now joining those, who oppose existing gun laws in certain states to change and extend them is simply proving the fact: The US gun laws are insufficient to protect innocent (and law abiding) US citizens from abuse of said laws.



But this in itself does not turn the NRA into a community friendly organisation...



The current US legislation on gun ownership and the ways to aquire guns is incomplete. By the time this meets up with irresponsible citizens and those with criminal intent it becomes lethal. More than that, some legislation (in some US states) are protecting those who (in other places) would be otherwise charged with murder. At the same time it enables murder charges on people who never even fired a gun. This is completely twisted, crazy and absurd.



The US has got a "one eyed approach" when it comes to gun ownership and IMHO one that is rotten. The reasons for that IMO are anchored in something called "frontier spirit", where an entire human tribe got robbed of their land, possessions and almost extinct (the genocide committed on the North American aboriginal people). Colonialism was the first step. Next was a big vast open space in which "law enforcement" was nothing more than a phrase. Immigrants were robbing and killing each other. Finally there is the "freedom" movement aiming for independance against the "governing forces" overseas (British government).



IMO many of todays views are still deriving from this past: the need to defend ones self from "aboriginal hazards" (like inhabitants and wild animals), the need to defend ones self from "fellow (crooked) citizens" and finally the need to (eventually) defend ones self against a (crooked) government. This created the underlying paranoia that is still prevalent today. Measuring with double standards (us "good" - the rest "bad").



Most of these IMO are phantoms from the past and IMHO the problems should be tackled from a different angle.



Prevention and education are the keys to a brighter future. Curing the root causes, not the symptoms.



However one may close eyes to this and the negative facts that outweigh the benefits of gun ownership - one will eventually find that this is the only possible (mature) way.



One can continue to ignore valid arguments, studies and facts regarding the "gun problem of the US" - but that doesn't change a thing:



By aquiring and owning a firearm I do contribute to local, national and global suffering

on a similar (if not far greater) scale as if I eat industrial) meat, fly intercontinental and support opressive regimes. I contribute to paranoia of those I wish to protect and by this counter my own (honourable) intentions.



I may be able to fool some people and even myself some times by believing in and repeating/ bringing forth corrupted arguments, but certainly not all.



[edited for clarity, not for content]

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1185177719)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Posted:I believe the ownership of guns as a method of protection is a mere bandaid solution to a bigger problem of violence and conflict in the states. There needs to be more attention to why people are acting out-what system is failing... who are living in poverty and why? Although violence statistically was on a decline over a decade ago, it has now begun to rise in the education system and in youths in the states. Guns is slowly becoming more noticable in Canada-especially in areas that are on the border to the states. What does that imply?


I just believe there are no reasons to have guns being tossed around so easily in the public. I know police officers who have never used their guns throughout their entire time on the force! If these are law enforcers-people fighting crime-and they are hardly using guns, then why does any old citizen need a gun? Are 5 out of 10 houses having home invasions?

Hunting is an entirely different story. There is a thing called the super market where people can buy meat already prepared. Killing animals in the wild simply disgusts me (as does farming animals-but at least purchase the resources if they are already present). I don't see the sport or enjoyment out of hunting-maybe if you live in a remote environment where you need to hunt to survive... but not in suburbia.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's nice to get someone else to join in.
Definitely a bandaid solution that is symptomatic of a larger problem
A couple of people have put forth either jobs or situations where they felt guns were not necessary, but made their safety a bit more secure

My conspiracy theory side says the cops don't need their guns because they often arrive after the fact. I would say the officers in Milwaukee and some other cities often have the oppurtunity to use their guns or at least draw them. I don't think you need to squeeze a trigger for a gun to be used


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:organic poi, I think the increase in guns is due to NRA, and the people who support the NRA, pushing more guns.



Lurch, you be pleased to hear that I have found the real American gun culture. They are called the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA). They prove to me, there are rational shooters out there, real hunters who respect the environment. They are opposed to assault weapons, "cop-killer" bullets, and canned hunts (which I hear a popular in Oregon).



I like them because of what the the National Rifle Association said about them "... they (the AHSA) want to allow the FBI to keep records on law-abiding citizens who buy guns and put an end to gun shows as we know them. Not to mention the fact that they want to regulate .50 caliber rifles in the same way that machine guns are regulated."



In a twist of irony, it also seems likely that the NRA anarchists will loose their weapons under the proposed anti-terrorism firearms and explosives legislation, 2007.





biggrin


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:At least what I can say about hunting in Germany is that there is a need to "regulate" wild animals, as we killed all their predators. Due to this fact for example deers would thrive unconditionally and at some point damage the forest. This is one reason that hunting is still legal in Germany - hunters are more like rangers - dunno much about other countries though. As much as I understand your angle, organic_poi, there are circumstances under which hunting (even in suburbia) would be acceptable and many times the hunted animals die with more dignity than any domesticised (depending on the hunter).

However - as said - I understand what you try to indicate: Hunting as a sports is disgusting as it is completely unnecessary and I am fully on your side on the aspect of the root causes regarding (gun) violence and crime. Society needs to look deeper into the reasons and find alternate solutions.

The NRA seems to ba an organisation less for the law abiding citizen, but for the companies who (try to) sell (more) guns in the US. IMO the are nothing more than lobbyists, simply pretending to protect citizens rights. As such they would have no interest improving the situation and safety, but to continue the old system - which grants their function and wealth - "self perpetuating" antique and self destructive habits.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, Ive been meaning to try and answer you question on the how we chose violence thing? Im not trying to be confrontational, so here goes:

If you think you are a victim then its because you choose to be victim. You choose mediocrity over greatness. It may not be an obvious choice. For example, we may not like where we live. We complain about our situation, and sometimes we blame other people for where we are in life, but ultimately its our choice where we live and how we live our life. You changed you circumstance and improved your life, so you know this. Its also a matter of how we see the future. Is it the same as the past or is something opening up for us, are we living our dreams?

Fire Tom, I dont really agree with hunting unless its for food and survival. The NRA does not care about the interests or safety of anyone in the community. Its leaders are the troglodytes of American politics. They are bigoted, racist and sexist. Here are some examples:

Jeff Cooper, ex NRA Board of Directors (dec.), On Inner-City Violence: "the consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition." Cooper's Corner, Guns and Ammo.

Ted Nugent, NRA Board of Directors, On South Africans: "Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal. The preponderance of South Africa is a different breed of man. I mean that with no disrespect. I say that with great respect. I love them because I'm one of them. They are still people of the earth, but they are different. They still put bones in their noses, they still walk around naked, they wipe their butts with their hands. These are different people. You give 'em toothpaste, they [censored] eat it ... I hope they don't become civilized. They're way ahead of the game." Detroit Free Press Magazine.

Leroy Pyle, Former NRA Board Member: On Sarah Brady, wife of Jim Brady, paralyzed due to injuries he received during the assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan: "That ugly cackler. She pulls her husband around like a pulltoy on a string. My friends and I say that if that ever happened to one of us and our wife did that, somebody would slip into the house one night and slit her throat." --Quoted in "Under Fire: The NRA and the Battle for Gun Control


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:In some ways, yes, we/I chose to be a victim. There are other people who don't have the money to move. People who have rental assistance can only move to certain places, because landlords don't want people on rental assistance.

People are making a difference in their communities. There is the friendship center that teaches mediation and nonviolence techniques. There is the revitalization movement in our area.

But there are still shooting and dealers on the corner. Just this weekend, we were visiting a friend in the "bad" neighborhood and we forgot my phone. So we stopped by the gas station. As we do, a man runs up hand in one pocket asking to get a piece in our deal. Not a big deal, but not being able to see his other hand was.

And I know you didn't mean it in this way, but I did not ask or choose to be a victim of rape. I did not have any weapon. Perhaps the situation led to it, maybe I asked for it by putting myself in the situation, but a woman should be able to have a supposed friend walk her home from the bar and not be attacked. She should be able to trust her lover who had shown no signs of that violence before.

Stone: I'm glad that you found a group that you can recognize as responsible owners. But I am still a supporter of the NRA. They have done well in our community, supporting second hand sales and such.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith, as Stone I would ask questions that are neither meant to confront you or your views, but trying to understand your angle:



- How could the NRA be beneficial to the community, if they support second hand sales of guns, where NO background check is necessary? Thus enabling criminals to get access to guns, whereas they would otherwise have none?



- How would you think the NRA (in defense or enforcement of the second ammendment) contributes to the safety of the community by enabling a growing number of circulating handguns?



(I am asking because I do believe in a vicious circle happening: Criminals do have access to guns, therefore honest ppl. feel the need to arm themselves - buy guns and then buy newer guns, selling the old ones (potentially to criminals or ppl who sell the guns to criminals 3rd hand) IMO the solution is to reduce the nuber of guns)



- How would you think carrying a handgun could have protected you from becoming a victim of rape to your lover?



(I am asking because I do believe that carrying a gun would have only postponed the incident)



- Would you agree that moving away from such a neighborhood is a temporary and individual solution only and that programmes tackling the root causes (such as unemployment, drug addiction, unresricted violence) would be the ultimate way out of such a misery for all concerned?



(I am asking because drug addiction is a choice made for a few reasons, some of them being unemployment, aggression and lack of perspecive, lack of alternatives or ways to express ones creativity, sexuality and so on. I believe all this to be an interconnected mishmash of circumstances and that the NRA is supporting to saddle the horse from the wrong end, twisting the screw tighter temporarily, instead of providing a washer...)



Stone: in regards of hunting (as stated before) I do not support it for sporting reasons. The situation in areas of Europe is very different than to the US and Canada. We nearly extinct all natural predators and therefore have to "regulate" the numbers of deers in the forests in order to protect the plants/ trees and therefore the very foundation of their natural habitat. As crazy as this may sound.... shrug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1185289679)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, thanks for the feedback. I really get that you care about your community, are up on local events and there are people making a difference in many ways, like Mick Beatovic. I know I dont live in a place where there are shooting and dealers on the corner, but we still have drugs, crime and crap places to live. Im suggesting that there are other ways of looking at being a victim, and some ways are more empowering than others.



Not having the money to move, or only taking rental assistance places could be considered excuses for not moving. Being a victim of circumstances, so to say, reminds me of the ol You Like to Sit on a Nail story.



 Written by:

What! Your dog is sitting on a nail. Why doesnt he get off? Well, it just doesnt hurt him enough.





Being a victim of violence is another story. No matter what anyone does, they don't deserve violence or abuse. Im not going to try and tackle why choosing to be a victim has nothing to do with whether or not the victim had a weapon. Instead, Id suggest checking out You are a Target Not A Victim. Its a site about domestic violence, but I think a lot of what they say could also apply to other areas of our lives as well.



I got a lot from reading their handout - 10 Rules to an Unhappy Marriage, and theyre bit on The Benefits of Victimization. I dont think the Benefits of Victimization apply solely to abuse, for example the first couple:



Commiseration: makes one feel good because they are not alone. It allows one to continue to blame the perpetrator and not see how they fit into the pattern. Allies allows one to deflect criticism through focusing on sympathy by gaining allies rather than introspecting.



Blame game: this is to reinforce that we are right and they are wrong. They are wrong; we don't deserve the treatment they give us. The problem with being right about them being wrong is that we continue to allow them to mistreat us by focusing on their misdeeds without looking at our own issues.



See how it goes smile



Yes Fire Tom, as crazy as it may sound, we also have to regulate the numbers of kangaroos in many National Parks in Australia, because we too are out of balance with nature.



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Thanks Stone. I enjoy reading your posts because even though we disagree, you always put it so nicely.
I would say I'm just an idiot, because even at the time I had a support system. They were all addicts and dealers but willing to help me/beat him. smile Perhaps the blame game, I am rather addicted to being right. And you're right. I probably was a target, not a victim. But a girl should be allowed to walk home unharrassed. Then bf had been violent but never in violent in that manner. I guess I should have known it was really only a matter of time.

As for people not moving, part of it is the amount of assistance they get. Also where they live affects their ability to get hired. The assistance makes sure it's not enough to move anywhere else and employers see they live in the area and don't want to hire them. It doesn't make it impossible to move, but it does make it difficult.

Now Tom:
1-I have explained what the NRA is doing in our community and how it is beneficial. Lately, the secondhand guns sales were addressed, including gun show sales.
2-It wouldn't have. It's why I didn't want to have a gun in our household. The point was to address something that Stone had said.
3-See answer one
4-Yes, and that is what I have been saying this whole time. The guns aren't the problem. People's attitudes toward solving problems and their community are. And while our community is struggling, we are making strides. And the NRA has been behind many of the proposed gun laws involving registration and background checks for secondhand and gun show sales. The number of guns aren't necessarily the problem, but the people who are using them.

As for Europe deer problems, not different from US and Canada at all. Deer season and tags has increased because the population is booming. mmmmm...venison. Round here opening day is practically a state holiday


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone, thanks for the post and the links provided.



Had I came across the same content some time earlier, ppl here would no have had the chance to misinterpret my views on sexual assault and rape to the same extent. Thanks for completion and finetuning of my arguments.



Faith, thanks for your response, I edited my questions and added why I was asking them. I just think that the NRA is more a lobby to the gun industry, rather than to the citizens of the US. IMO they greatly contribute to the problem and perpetuate it, regardless of cosmetics they intend to apply now that the wind is strongly pushing from the other direction.



I would also take the quotes, Stone posted above as pretty serious indications, what kind of mindset the people running the NRA do hold. Find more:



Source VPC on NRA's board of direcors



and



What NRA leaders are saying



IMO the NRA is not acting in the interest of the American public - or at least I really do hope so....



Certainly it's not the gun that kills someone, but the person handling it. It has been said many times and I do side that fact. Yet I do belive that a gun in wrong peoples hands at the wrong time escalates the problem and leads to irreversible results.



I posted it already on top of last page: If a gun ban of whatever kind would result in only 5% less gun related deaths, it would result in more than 1.400 less gun related sufferings. This is almost 45 times the VT shooting...



Every life is precious and this not only to the person who holds it, but to someone who loves this person for whatever reason.



I do take into account that in the present situation in the US, with more than 200.000.000 privatly owned handguns (at a population of maybe 280.000.000) it seems to appear impossible to regulate and restrict the possession and (ab)use of guns. But IMO every thousand mile road starts with the first step.



At some time there were no seatbelts in cars, at some time cocaine was legally sold in pharmacies (it even was a part of "Coca Cola") and everybody smoked cigarettes everywhere. At some time we have to take that first step into the right direction and let us not get blinded by ppl who only work in their own interest or that of those who put the green into their pockets.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not a holy man and do not intend to become one. I know much of this is preachertell, but this is about a future. And if the money spent on handguns would be spent on social programmes, gosh it would make so much difference.



This is not my personal crusade against "evil" guns, but the atempt to raise awareness of a far-too-easy-to-handle deadly tool, can be obtained far to uncomplicated.



I dunno, maybe it appears over-regulated, but here in Germany you need a license to fish and a license to hunt (not to speak of owning a gun) - it ensures that people do receive some basic knowledge about safety and what they are doing, it is aimed to prevent the wildlife to "simply get shot for fun". I think it is okay this way...



offtopic PS: Stout I didn't know that you had predators in Oztrailia that "regulated" the numbers of 'roos before the arrival of western men... I thought the problem were rabbits


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:it's not hard to get a deer tag here

I think one thing that needs to be taken into account is that people who own one gun often own more than one. Because of this the number of registered guns looks much more intimidating. My best friend has 10 I think. A few handguns and a number of rifles and shotguns. The latter were mostly all passed down in the family. It is still a large number of households owning weapons. But a reminder to consider



can i point and say that you said guns are evil now tongue

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Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol Nope you can't because I clearly pointed out that it's not guns that kill people, but people who kill people and that I put evil in ""'s ... What you can point is that I consider "guns to appeal to the darker side in man"... and why I think so is clearly stated in the last 20 pages.

Certainly I do not understand why someone would want to own that many guns shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Cheers faith smile



Absolutely, a girl should be allowed to walk home unharassed. There is a lot of information at You are a Target Not A Victim, check out their FAQ #4.



Rental assistance sounds like it could become a poverty trap over time. I had a friend who lived in a rent control house in Carlton, a pretty nice area of Melbourne. Anyhow, the rent went up if she earnt over a certain amount of money, so she was reluctant to get a better job. She got fed up with it in the end, studied nursing and brought her own place. We dont have many deer in Australia, though like Fire Tom said, we have lots of rabbits (underground mutton).



Fire Tom most of the roos natural predators like the Tasmanian Tiger are extinct, and there are not that many dinky dy dingos left either. Cars and Trucks? Fair comment though on the National Parks, because apart from a few Parks like Hatta, its more about roo numbers increasing with improved pastures. Roo numbers build up quickly under favorable conditions created by western man, as do rabbits. Rabbits are an introduced species and have few predators. Under the favourable conditions they breed like rabbits. Biological controls are used to keep numbers down in Oztrailia, the land downunder



beerchug


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:a lot of "assistance" IMO is a poverty trap. absolutely getting out and getting an education is a great way to get out. Unfortunately, part of the problem is the hopelessness. There are ways out but you have to convince yourself of it. And like I said, part of the problem is finding work because we all know the "bad" areas and are sort of cautious about hiring from there.

Part of my job is recruiting, so I make a point of trying to get these people in. Sales is hard but many of them know direct people that need health benefits. Plus, if they can hustle they will probably be good at this too.

As for the guns, since we don't see them as dark energy objects and some of them were from late family members, they have intrinsic value. Also, different guns for different purposes-one for deer one for turkey...


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well, it's obvious that there are very differing attitudes and viewpoints, opinions (regarding guns) on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific - and certainly also within the US (as the Brady Campaign and other initiatives proove). To me, a gun is simply a weapon, but this may be 'cause I didn't inherit my grandfathers WWII handgun - given that.

To me, it is simply unacceptable that (accumulated) an entire town, larger than for say Athens (AL) or Newry (UK) or Lismore (NSW) get's wiped out due to gun related accidents and gun related violence.

I just have to question the sanity behind all this.

Right now the US is mourning about 3.600 casualties in Iraq up to date, earlier this year there were about 35 casualties at Virginia Tech and here, on this very board we are not only mourning Clare's mum, but the loss of Maddi who was taken by violent force.

Every year, almost 30.000 people die from gun related accidents or violence in the US alone.

30.000 - this number might appear too big to get the whole picture, but I know you know how the loss of ONE dear person feels.... It's horror.

How many more do have to experience the same and much more pain and grief, before (sufficient) actions are taken?

Please stop to (silently) support gun ownership and especially, please stop to (silently) support the NRA - it's not leading to anything good.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Did you miss the part when I said a friend was shot? Bf has lost at least three people as a result of a gun. I will support gun ownership still. And our NRA chapter because they are doing good. I will get behind good gun laws and shove away any that will add clutter to the many on WI books.

By the same reasoning I should be against cars and motorcycles. They have caused more grief than guns have.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: mini-me

...but I know you know how the loss of ONE dear person feels.... It's horror.



shrug your pick... hug good luck and all the best...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, I understand that hopelessness, I was recently out of work. But as you say its about sales, selling your self and learning to hustle. So its possible to change things. For me, that brings to mind the world of motivation and the power of positive thinking. I did some Amway a while back, but Im in complete control wink

Getting motivated aint easy. From the You Like to Sit on a Nail story:

The owner said, Well, hes actually sitting on a nail. And the guy said, What! Your dog is sitting on a nail. Why doesnt he get off? Well, it just doesnt hurt him enough.

Wow! You know most people are like that dog sitting on a nail. I mean, sure, they would like to get off the nail, but what if they got off the nail and they died or something? They never seem to stop to consider that maybe they would be healed, maybe they would be free, maybe they would be able to move about and discover some new and exciting options for their lives.

You know, thats enough for most people . Well, youre different. You are willing to learn some effective nail removing strategies that could set you free because you and I both know that there is no such thing as security. Simply because, instead of Moaning & Groaning, Whimpering & Whining about not getting the results you desire, you are a developing a plan to get off the nail and create the conditions you want. By Paul Ferraresi.

Hope deer opening goes well smile

Fire Tom, I think its complete wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:That's not for awhile. I try to accidently be in central WI after the first week or so. My friends clean their own deer usually.

But I want security. That what I look for in any type of relationship. I always found positive thinking was sort of bull. Bad stuff still happens to you. So you can take it with a smile. I can try to create situations and conditions that I want but stuff still happens to block it. I still aim for those things, but still...


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, I used to think that all that positive thinking stuff was a load of bull. Then I did some new age stuff, mainly Landmark, and Ive completely changed my mind. If you get a chance, check out a little aussie move called the Secret. It was featured on Oprah, so it must be good wink Its low budget, a bit cheesy in places, but its got some good points. Like the laws of attraction, where we create the world around us by who we are being. For me, its more about appreciating who I am, instead of worrying about who Im not. Appreciating what I have, rather then thinking about what I dont have.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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