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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:It's much like the one guy, riding the freeway, listening to the radio saying: "Attention drivers on freeway xx, between yy and zz there is a car driving on the wrong side." And he goes screaming: "ONE? Friggin hundreds!"

shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: lurchOh Really? Because gun laws have only gotten stricter over the past few decades, and drastically so. Guns have become taboo, and sensationalized by people who scream 'guns are bad!' and do nothing to encourage any sort of positive role model.


Lurch, in the article I posted it says that that the US Congress once barred guns at schools nationwide, but the US Supreme Court struck the law down. Recently, gun laws were slackened in Washington so much, the Mayor of Washington DC fears more handgun violence. Not to mention the ruling against trigger guards and other safety measures. And so it goes on from the slackening of the right to carry laws to increased availability of semi automatics like AKs and M16s on the street, gun laws are being loosened across the USA.

So what people have, is an understanding of how you and the NRA try to distort the truth when it comes to guns, as in the above quote.

As I said before, the positive role models are coming from people living in countries like Australia and Finland where they are prepared to to do something to prevent more shootings by questioning private ownership of guns. Something that you, and your fellow Americans are not prepared to do.




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: LurchYou ever wonder why there are less shootings in rural communities, where there are far more guns? People are taught from a very young age about firearms, their rules, to respect them, and understand them. Compare that to urban culture where their only contact with guns is in movies and in crime and it's not very hard to comprehend why they are used inappropriately.

Actually no Lurch, Ive never wondered why there are less shootings in rural communities. I suspect it would have a lot to do with less people living in rural communities. However, I have wondered why the suicide rate (with guns, what else) is so high in country communities, particularly amongst young males and men.

I think you are right about guns is in the movies and in crime being the driver of much gun violence. Given the macho cowboy/commando image that is portrayed, particularly in American movies, its not hard to see how young boys and impressionable men are attracted to the belief that all they need to become a hero, say like Rambo, is purchase a gun. Then having purchased the gun, the obvious next step is becoming a hero. If real life situations dont present, then there is always the increasing popular option of the shooting massacre. Not one of Americas best exports.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You're definitely having a point here, Lurch... whereas the lowerr density of population plays into it as well.

Cities can mean more (social) pressure, more violent outlets, less parenting... at the same time it is a fact that gun violence IS happening - we can't simply ignore the facts.

Question is: how do we curb this? How do wee make the environment safer? Education is ONE, reviewing existing gun regulations is ANOTHER (valid) approach.

See - if it so far hasn't gotten through properly - I gained higher respect of you and what you're actively doing for your community. I honor that you're sticking your head out and participate in this discussion, regardless of the opposition you receive. There is a lot of courage on your side. Patting your shoulder for that.

At the same time I feel that things have changed within the last 50 years adn we shouldn't get stuck in the past. Population has increased, violence in the media has increased, social and economical and social pressure has increased - all these factors leading to the scenario we face today --> regulation is needed, just like on the roads, after the traffic has multiplied, just as in protection of the environment, in the face of global warming.

See it this way: The number of hunters has tripled, but the game decreased --> regulations need to be taken, so that following generations are still to enjoy the sight of Buffalo in the plains.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You're definitely having a point here, Lurch... whereas the lower density of population plays into it as well, as Stone has noted.

Cities can mean more (social) pressure, more violent outlets, less parenting... at the same time it is a fact that gun violence IS happening - we can't simply ignore the facts.

Question is: how do we curb this? How do wee make the environment safer? Education is ONE, reviewing existing gun regulations is ANOTHER (valid) approach.

See - if it so far hasn't gotten through properly - I gained higher respect of you and what you're actively doing for your community. I honor that you're sticking your head out and participate in this discussion, regardless of the opposition you receive. There is a lot of courage on your side. Patting your shoulder for that.

At the same time I feel that things have changed within the last 50 years adn we shouldn't get stuck in the past. Population has increased, violence in the media has increased, social and economical and social pressure has increased - all these factors leading to the scenario we face today --> regulation is needed, just like on the roads, after the traffic has multiplied, just as in protection of the environment, in the face of global warming.

See it this way: The number of hunters has tripled, but the game decreased --> regulations need to be taken, so that following generations are still to enjoy the sight of Buffalo in the plains.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:I'd agree that hunting needs harsher regulation.

Reading the first post those laws that allow shooting to be a first defense bother me. I feel like violence should be a last resort and deadly violence should need to be very heavily justified.

That said, I don't think people should kept from owning guns at all. Stopping the law following citizenry from owning guns doesn't stop the law breaking ones from owning guns. So I'd think people should be allowed to purchased guns, and I think the screening process serves it's purpose.
I think there is something social that needs fixed more than anything. We should probably address why people turn to crime in the first place. I suppose I mean we as a nation, or the greater we...Maybe the royal we. I don't mean the website though.


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:But are there less of these events in rural communities ? I suppose it all hinges on your definition of rural..

When I open up this link and look at the names of the communities these school shootings happened in, I can't say i recognise very many of the place names.

I randomly selected some of these places, typed them int the Google and came up with what could easily be defined as "small" communities ( Taber, Alberta, Springfield Oregon, Kauhajoki, Finland, Nickel Mines, Pa ) granted, these communities could be suburbs of larger metropolitan areas, like Littleton Colorado.

What communities do these shooters come from themselves? Sure it's possible that an urban shooter could travel to a rural community to do the deed, but it's doubtful.

If we take the Taber, Alberta example we have a shooter from that small community committing his crime in that same community...(one week after Columbine, a prime example of the werther effect) This guy survived because he was jumped by a teacher, now I'm unable to find out just what type of gun he was using, but I suspect it wasn't a semi automatic rifle with a high cap mag.

This whole, respect for firearms in rural communities might not be a valid argument when it comes to marketing education as being THE tool in preventing these types of tragedies.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks for having taken this on you, Stout... I was thinking to look into it myself, but happen to have limited time right now.

Wikipedia published articles to almost each and every individual school shooting - and often presents background stories. My research (for the "school shooters" thread) so far has only tried to summarize the events by country, race and gender -

which was to prove that my intuitive claim has been correct that it's a predominantly white, male, western phenomenon. Now If we were to look at killing sprees in general/worldwide - it may come up with a similar result.

MRC - thanks for joining in. In the meantime I got a better understanding that the right to bear arms is so deeply rooted in North-American (white, male) tradition that it's going to be a difficult task to change it.

Certainly we need to cure the cause - but existing liberal gun laws have mostly lead to tragedies that would have been avoidable, if guns would not have been so easily available.

Have we ever confronted the statistics of gun violence/ tragedies vs. gun crimes? I guess we have and it was not to the pro-gunners liking wink So really I guess that argument of law abiding citizens falling prey to criminals in case of less guns available has not really hit the nail so far...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, fair points on hunting and the right to bear arms.

I think Larry Pratt, the Executive Director of Gun Owners of America, summed it up best when he said "The second amendment ain't about duck hunting."

Stout, it seems like you are on to something with the Werther effect, Ill look up.


Originally Posted By: LurchWhether you believe it or not, guns are not the enemy. The corruption of society is the enemy. And if you *still* think that guns are, wouldn't it be better for everyone to have a healthy understanding of them both good and bad, and the consequences associated with them rather than just blatantly categorize them as evil and lock them away?

Lurch, I dont think you can separate guns from the corruption of society; both seem to be linked together. Unfortunately it seems, at least in America, that many of the people who are attracted to guns also suffer from authoritarian personality disorder. You only have to look at the type of people who run the pro gun lobby groups like the NRA and the Gun Owners of America to see that. Normal people have a healthy understanding of guns, and the consequences of owning guns. That is why they want restrictions placed on the private ownership of guns, and not see guys running around in camo gear with semi-automatic M16's or impressionable kids shooting up schools.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:And the more I think about it, I come to the point that Lurch has another point: Guns are not the enemy. Even though I still believe that guns do appeal to the darker side of (some) people, they are inanimate objects.

So is... smack. Still I wouldn't want it around my child. Education about drugs or not. I wouldn't want it anywhere near my child. And I wouldn't prefer ppl who are using smack around my child. Period. It's not about smack, or that I regard ppl who use it as bad ppl - I just wouldn't want them deal with my daughter.

Lurch, what would you say is the reason for a corrupted society? And how would you suggest to change it? Would you think that a corrupted society and guns go together well? If not, why accept that the two mix (the way they do now)?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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MRC
MRC

Funky Blessings Daily

Member Since: 17th Jun 2008
Total posts: 215
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomCertainly we need to cure the cause - but existing liberal gun laws have mostly lead to tragedies that would have been avoidable, if guns would not have been so easily available.

Have we ever confronted the statistics of gun violence/ tragedies vs. gun crimes? I guess we have and it was not to the pro-gunners liking wink So really I guess that argument of law abiding citizens falling prey to criminals in case of less guns available has not really hit the nail so far...

That's the thing, I don't own a gun and don't think I ever will. I do know people who do own guns. For example one friend actually escorted us to our cars with a hand gun ready at his hip because they'd been experiencing increases in bear incidences, and never wanted us to be completely unprotected.

I haven't looked it up in a while, I'm sure it's been addressed before though, isn't it true that areas with less gun regulation (beyond the background checks and things) tend to have less crime?

I just think it is more social than it is the gun. Years ago that one kid went insane and killed a teacher with a sword. They blamed that he played DnD. He was unstable, it's the lack of understanding or care for his mental issues, not the sword or the game that caused it. I don't want to say the whole "guns don't kill people..." thing because it sounds jingoistic but it is kind of true.

I mean I think it's probably better to address the reason people commit the crime, and not the means they used. I think it's difficult to pin down what makes americans so violent as a whole. I don't think we can go for the whole union for that matter, but maybe each state can begin dealing with the issues of it's citizens.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:MRC - just on a rather quick note (Thai cooking class scheduled).

It's been addressed before and as we can't expect anyone to browse through 30+ pages, I tried to keep the Initial Post updated.
Please let me refer you to the links provided there, regarding crime rates, suicide rates and the myths put forth by the NRA and gun lobby.

I get your point, regarding weapons and "guns not killing people/ people killing people" - point being is that violence is violence and people are people... just when violent people mix with guns, the bloodshed gets significantly higher. (at least IMHO and according to the statistics)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: usa todaySUMTER, S.C. (AP) An ex-convict who thought he was being robbed gunned down a 12-year-old trick-or-treater, spraying nearly 30 rounds with an assault rifle from inside his home after hearing a knock on the door, police said Saturday.

Quentin Patrick, 22, is accused of killing 12-year-old T.J. Darrisaw on Friday night. T.J.'s 9-year-old brother, Ahmadre Darrisaw, and their father, Freddie Grinnell, were injured but were released after being treated at a hospital.

The family attended a Halloween celebration in downtown Sumter, 45 miles east of Columbia, then stopped at Patrick's house because the porch light was on, police said. Another sibling was with them but wasn't hurt.

Police said at least two of the boys were wearing ghoulish masks when they knocked on the door. The boys' mother and a toddler stayed in the car nearby.

Patrick emptied his AK-47, shooting at least 29 times through his front door, walls and windows after hearing the knock, Police Chief Patty Patterson said.

He told police he had been robbed and shot in the past year.

"He wasn't going to be robbed again, and he wasn't going to be shot again," Patterson said Saturday at a news conference.

She said T.J., a bright young man, suffered multiple wounds, including a fatal shot to his head. No one answered the door at the family's home Saturday.

"This is by far one of the worst tragedies that I have had to personally experience," Patterson said. "It happened basically because kids were out doing what they would normally do on Halloween."

Patrick has been charged with murder, three counts of assault and battery with intent to kill, and one count of assault with intent to kill.

Police said they also charged a 19-year-old in his home, Ericka Patrice Pee, with obstruction of justice when she was caught trying to run away after the shooting with $7,500 in cash. Patterson did not give an explanation for the money.

Pee's 2-year-old daughter was inside during the shooting and is now being cared for by family members.

Patterson said Patrick had multiple drug convictions but police do not believe he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol during the shooting. Authorities did not know if Patrick or Pee had attorneys. Both are being held without bond.

A man who identified himself as Patrick's brother but declined to give his name said in a call to The Associated Press that he believed Patrick was suffering from post-traumatic stress after a break-in last December. The man's account matched the information police provided.

"We want to let his family know that this is a total tragic accident," he said. "He was trying to protect his family."

shrug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1225785741)


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:It's a sad story FT, but he was a felon, who illegally had a gun, and illegally used it. And he was an idiot, and being charged for his crimes. He's the type of person that I fully advocate extremely strict control(*cough*ban*cough*) of gun ownership.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:It's nice to see you're still fighting the good fight lurch

the above article only enforces the idea that we need to enforce the laws that we already have. The more laws the more a tangled web we weave that no one will be able to make heads or tails of


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hey...remember that story from a couple of years back..the one about the 11 year old shotgun champion who defended her home against the two illegal aliens ?

The one that sourced back to "NRA files"

Well.....


http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2007/12/13/butte_top/20071213_butte_top.txt


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:We already established that one Stout

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:We did??? Oops my bad.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Hi there America, here is another Australian first in the fight against gun violence.

Former Gypsy Joker biker hit with firearm ban

"A former member of the Gypsy Jokers bikie gang has become the first target of South Australia's new firearm laws. Michael Paul Uzzell has been issued with a firearm prohibition order, banning him from owning, holding or being in the same house as a gun. Police will be able to search Mr Uzzell, his home or his car on sight, and if he breaches the order he faces 15 years in prison. Police Minister Michael Wright says Mr Uzzell is a dangerous criminal with a history of violence and drug offences and this order will not be the last. "These laws, certainly an Australian first, but we think maybe a world first, send home the point blank message that serious violent offending will not be tolerated."


Think you are safe?

Its only a matter of time laugh3


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:I like the "banning him from...being in the same house as a gun" Sure some major civil liberty issues, but what the hell, if he truly has had multiple convictions, this might stop him topping himself or others in the future.

Seems kinda hard to enforce though...


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* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Well, they can search him whenever they want so they can pretty much keep him from owning one himself and if he's involved in a crime with a gun at any stage it means that they'll be able to stack that sentence on top of any other sentence meaning they can come down that bit harder on him.

hug

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truthsetsfree
stranger

Member Since: 15th Jan 2009
Total posts: 6
Posted:Unless you aim to kill someone, you don't need a handgun. When someone innocent is killed or injured by a gun the court should allow the victim or victim's representative to sue the owner of the gun, the manufacturer of the gun and the manufacturer of the bullet. (Remember the absurd "hot coffee" ruling?)
All guns issued for any "legitimate" purpose should be test fired and the bullet and cartridge markings shouls be in a database.
Possession of a handgun should be a criminal offence with a mandatory ten years minimum jail sentence. Use of a gun when commiting a crime should require a mandatory twenty years imprisonment, and a mandatory life sentence if the gun is discharged. The stupid RifleAassociation statement "guns don't kill people, people do" should be seen as the total crap it is.
Toddlers and schoolchildren should not be able to get their hands on a gun, you can't murder multiple victims using you hands alone.


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truthsetsfree
stranger

Member Since: 15th Jan 2009
Total posts: 6
Posted:There is no positive role model for the use of guns. Handguns are designed to kill people. There is only a constitutional right to carry guns in USA because some fool wrote it in the constitution. Don't forget the USA Constitution was written by terrorists to make it possible to have an insurrection in USA if you don't agree to what the government is doing. It is not an enshrined right to murder or threaten you fellow-citizens
EDITED_BY: truthsetsfree (1232089838)


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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: truthsetsfreeThere is no positive role model for the use of guns. Handguns are designed to kill people. There is only a constitutional right to carry guns in USA because some fool wrote it in the constitution. Don't forget the USA Constitution was written by terrorists to make it possible to have an insurrection in USA if you don't agree to what the government is doing. It is not an enshrined right to murder or threaten you fellow-citizens

Wow man, that was the most uneducated thing I have read in a while. Those fools you speak of were the forefathers of my county. Do you have a clue why they were written in in the first place? Apparently not... They are not terrorists, they were people who adamantly believed that the country should be free, and the only way to secure that freedom is resisting tyrannical government. My country was founded on those beliefs and a lot of us hold them in high esteem, including me.

Your comment about the right to murder fellow citizens is also very unfounded... The news will put up countless instances where guns were used incorrectly, there are many times when guns have saved other people that you don't hear about. I will say that it is a shame how untrained many people owning guns are, and I feel that in the time of writing the constitution most everyone was proficient with firearms, today that is not the case. I believe people who own firearms should have to go through courses, sadly that is not the law.

In the end guns don't kill people, people kill people, and many of my fellow citizens are retarded and malicious, good people with proper training are not going to kill anyone except for the ones you hear in the news making you think that's all that happens.

You're nuts to trust your government, and personally I hope YOUR government turns it's back on you one day, maybe then you'll wish you and your citizens had the power to stop it, but you will have no way to.

The government should fear the people, not the other way around.

EDIT: The laws don't say to threaten people with guns, that is a terrible thing to do and you would be arrested for it, you certainly are a bit ignorant.


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: truthsetsfreeUnless you aim to kill someone, you don't need a handgun. When someone innocent is killed or injured by a gun the court should allow the victim or victim's representative to sue the owner of the gun, the manufacturer of the gun and the manufacturer of the bullet. (Remember the absurd "hot coffee" ruling?)
All guns issued for any "legitimate" purpose should be test fired and the bullet and cartridge markings shouls be in a database.
Possession of a handgun should be a criminal offence with a mandatory ten years minimum jail sentence. Use of a gun when commiting a crime should require a mandatory twenty years imprisonment, and a mandatory life sentence if the gun is discharged. The stupid RifleAassociation statement "guns don't kill people, people do" should be seen as the total crap it is.
Toddlers and schoolchildren should not be able to get their hands on a gun, you can't murder multiple victims using you hands alone.

You reference your reasoning to sue gun manufacturers for shootings on the "absurd" coffee ruling? Do you not see what's wrong with that. Do you sue an automobile maker when someone decides to run someone over? Have you read a firearms manual? Guns don't just go off they are handled improperly, just as the absurd coffee was.


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:*stares at the handgun in his closet* "Go on gun! Go kill someone." *waits and waits and waits* "Come on 1911, go shoot up the school" *still waiting, gun sits there looking smug* "Load yourself gun, and do my bidding!" *still nothing*


*stares at the ar-15 in the closet* "Well assault rifle, your little bro 1911 won't do anything, you go kill someone!" *ar-15 doesn't move from the case* "Come on guns, what the hell?"

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, for having a truthsetsfree handle you certainly have been fed a lot of lies.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Charles, good to see you. There are some major civil liberty issues involved, and it is unfortunate that measures like this a necessary to control outlaw bikers. I think society is saying it is fed up with outlaws carrying guns.

Originally Posted By: truthsetsfreeThere is no positive role model for the use of guns. Handguns are designed to kill people. There is only a constitutional right to carry guns in USA because some fool wrote it in the constitution. Don't forget the USA Constitution was written by terrorists to make it possible to have an insurrection in USA if you don't agree to what the government is doing. It is not an enshrined right to murder or threaten you fellow-citizens

truthsetsfree, I think you make an excellent point. There are no positive role models for the use of guns. Though, there are a lot of negative role models. You only have to look up "what the leaders of the NRA are saying" to see that.

I thought the American War of Independence was primarily about greed. Though, I think the NRA, with over 30 years of lobbying, has reduced the entire American Constitution to one line: The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Conveniently ignoring the the bit about A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, as well as the rest of the Constitution. Their continued lobbying has lead to the erroneous association between guns and independence.

The best comments Ive read on this subject were written by Jane, who said in a New York Times bog: Ive lived in countries where there is no constitutional right to bear arms and consequently where no folks are mowed down at work over a grievance, no children are shot in the street from cars, and people dont feel the need to keep a gun under their pillow to feel safe at home. When we of the new America were fighting for our independence back in the 18th century, the right to bear arms seemed a logical right for a citizens militia of freedom fighters. It doesnt seem as logical now, given the gun violence of today. Thats all I have to say. Societies evolve. We are still evolving. Im not trying to take away anyones gun. I just wish I lived in a country where people didnt feel the need or the desire to militate for weapons. I wish we were already beyond this divisive fight for rights.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneIm not trying to take away anyones gun. I just wish I lived in a country where people didnt feel the need or the desire to militate for weapons. I wish we were already beyond this divisive fight for rights.


You can wish all you want, it's a little late. I can't stand how you people think everything will be fine and dandy in the coming years. All this propaganda about how we should live in harmony, have you people watched the news? Do you have any idea how corrupt things are getting? You are going to wish you had guns real soon, and hopefully look back on the regurgitation here in shame.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:doppelGanger, I think the problem is a lot of people dont want to live in a society based on peace and harmony. Perhaps you could explain to attraction of living in a society that is based on guns and violence?

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Promoting peace is important... not just on an international scale, but on a local scale, how often do you snap at people you love just because you're frustrated? They're there to help you.

Obviously international violence can't be solved by flowers and peace alone, its escalated well beyond that... but "preemptive strikes" really ought to be cut down and if possible not used at all.

A nation that strikes out at another nation is an easy one to create negative propaganda about. Hate to the point of violence isnt ingrained in humans, it has to be incited.


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