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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:wink they used it in a very different context and approach, Stone...

gookst doo

Point being is not (as TNH sees it) to look at the bright side of life, that being human and adorable... but more like Lurch's approach of "wake up to the REAL world" - though with completely different consequences wink wink wink

offtopic

Lurch - so many people out there trying to sell me their "real world"... cops and sadhus alike... But I'm not buying, especially not if that means I have to run with fear, wear a weapon or deliver my fate to some guy with a gun... By time you too will grow out of that condition(ing) and realize wink Maybe you check into the Jain philosophy... they are one of the oldest living religions of the planet... quite astonishing how they survived... must be "India" wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, thanks for sharing the parable of the man in the well. It think you are right, it is used in a very different context. From all accounts, it illustrates well the Jain doctrine of Anekanta, the "manysidedness" of things. Perhaps some time you could explain Anekanta, as I havent been able to find a reference.

BTW, what do you call the real world? the forest, thus Vidura explained is samsara wink duck


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I'm not into Jainism, Stone. Sorry I can't help you out with "Anekanta" - as a matter of fact I googled it and immediately got turned off by the moralist and doomsday approach that I'm facing there.

See - to me it also reflects on this very topic (where some might consider me a "moralist")... I have attained a certain, that's all.

I've learned that the solution to peoples problems are mostly right in front of their very eyes... only that they can't see them - because of that.

Obviously there is be a problem in the US with guns - else there would not be ("innocent") people dying under such tragic circumstances (which get ignored, played down or equalized by lobbyists). Which is what makes me reach out my hand and say:

"Look, there is a problem, but you're too entangled to notice. Look at each and every individual aspect of the problem and then you may see the big picture." - as the big picture often is beyond our focus.

I gues it became crystal understanding that todays population of the USofA is not remembering their forefathers dream (as in "freedom from oppression" from inhumane regimes and to freely express their spirituality. It might be recalled that Europe at this time had been entrenched in warfare and that peasants got sacrificed by the lot.)

But what they found when arriving in the US (if they survived the passage) has been awful. People living in pityable conditions and being subject to scam and even more drugery than in the old world - and prior to independance they were only colony - so they ventured off and faced a hostile environment and .... wwwwooow... "natives".

However... we've been over this already.

People of the Americas today could do one simple thing to better their lives and by that greatly improve the condition of the planet and that of mankind altogether: listen and learn. Instead of exporting a corrupted version of (corporate) "freedom"(*) to the rest of the world. A freedom that is built on opression, arms and fear-mongering.

I'm asking: "Why do you keep on supporting conditions that promote faschism?" and "There is a way out of this. You don't have to victimize yourself - and subsequently others (if you don't want to)."

As I see it "the American people" today are

a) not really aware of what is going on and why it is happening to them
b) have no thorough understanding of their own history (nor their own constitution)
c) are a victim to lobbyists, such as the NRA and a victim to propaganda
d) are (frankly speaking) outright scared and paranoid - based upon their environment, history and conditioning

I have no more intention to change that - the only intention now is: don't promote your lifestyle as being still appropriate in the dawn of the Billennium. I'm no expert at all - all I'm stating is "common sense" as it's presenting itself to me.

Maybe they can learn something from those people that have gotten genocised so many centuries, maybe by self-reflection they will come to know what it really means "to be free" - cause (as I see it) a "freedom" that is based upon guns and bullets is only a delusion.






*conditions do apply to the "American Dream" - always have, so "may god buy America" wink

{edit]Oh, and on recent events:

US abortion doc, shot - report on funeral

Ain't it obvious that in a country with such a wide psychological diversity (between progressiveness and antiquated conservatism), many conflicts are being carried out with guns - especially when so easily accessible? umm

meditate

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1244340120)
EDIT_REASON: actual events


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Gunman opens fire at US Holocaust museum

Originally Posted By: ABCA gunman armed with a rifle opened fire inside Washington DC's Holocaust museum, shooting a security guard before being shot himself, police say.

The guard was rushed to hospital following the attack but later died from his injuries, local media reported.

The gunman remains in a critical condition in hospital after being wounded by return of fire, when two other security guards moved in to halt the attack.
US media reports say the gunman is an 88-year-old man with links to the white supremacist movement


Lurch, people are saying this is a direct result of overturning the DC gun laws, and organisations like the NRA prevented police from stopping the "bad guys" before they get the chance to shoot people. But I suppose, as usual, the excuse is this was another accident and he was going hunting.

I also think its time to wake-up to the extremists in America, as discussed previously. Its not difficult to see that many members of the NRA are linked to white supremacist groups, especially with the large increase in the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons since the election.


frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: APThe attack was the third in a recent wave of unsettling shootings that appeared to have political or ethnic underpinnings.

A 23-year-old Army private, William Andrew Long, was shot and killed outside a recruiting office this month in Arkansas and a fellow soldier was wounded. The suspect, a Muslim convert, has said he considers the killing justified because of the U.S. military presence in the Middle East.

Late last month, abortion provider Dr. George Tiller was shot to death in his church.

Johns, the security guard killed Wednesday, was black.

frown


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:*who* is saying it's a direct result of the DC ban removal? Cause I don't buy that for a second. Washington DC has been one of the most violent cities in America for YEARS.

I have *never* called these intentional crimes an accident, nor do I condone them in ANY way, and I resent that you would imply that. Random people committing senseless acts of violence is why I *like* having access to weapons if I want to.

The guy that got into the shooting at the holocaust museum was obviously a nut. Had the gun illegally, and was already a felon. So HOW does the DC ruling have *ANYTHING* to do with him??? Why is that even an issue?


How the hell does an increase in firearm sales = white supremacist? What sort of logic is that? Obama has said many times he was looking at renewing the ban, of course people are going to get them while they can if that is a possibility. Sorry FT but you're grasping at straws on that one, and seems to be blatant flame bait.

I don't want criminals to have guns, or access to them. I don't want innocent people to do. I don't want accidents to happen. I don't want innocent people to be forced into becoming victims because the government wont allow them to protect themselves. I want the *choice* to arm myself or not. I would rather not rely on someone else to protect me.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
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Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Lurchwho* is saying it's a direct result of the DC ban removal? Cause I don't buy that for a second. Washington DC has been one of the most violent cities in America for YEARS.

Lots of people are saying it. Incidents like this were bound to increase after the ban was removed. Id suggest that with the removal of the ban one of the most violent cities in America just got more violent. Did people think that violence would somehow disappear because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a ban on handguns violated the Second Amendment right to bear arms?

Originally Posted By: LurchHow the hell does an increase in firearm sales = white supremacist? What sort of logic is that? Obama has said many times he was looking at renewing the ban, of course people are going to get them while they can if that is a possibility. Sorry FT but you're grasping at straws on that one, and seems to be blatant flame bait.

There are a number of reports like these ones that I posted earlier: Federal agency warns of radicals on right. Obama's election fuels US extremism: leaked report. What do good citizens want with assault weapons anyhow? As they say, the Second Amendment right to bear arms aint about duck hunting or target shooting.

Originally Posted By: LurchI don't want criminals to have guns, or access to them. I don't want innocent people to do. I don't want accidents to happen. I don't want innocent people to be forced into becoming victims because the government wont allow them to protect themselves. I want the *choice* to arm myself or not. I would rather not rely on someone else to protect me.

Lurch, if you really dont want criminals to have guns and innocent people to die, then why do you support putting semi-automatic assault weapons back on the streets and removing handgun bans? This does not add up, because you say one thing and do the opposite.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:egg. I don't know why that is some deep philosophical question

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneOriginally Posted By: Lurchwho* is saying it's a direct result of the DC ban removal? Cause I don't buy that for a second. Washington DC has been one of the most violent cities in America for YEARS.

Lots of people are saying it. Incidents like this were bound to increase after the ban was removed. Id suggest that with the removal of the ban one of the most violent cities in America just got more violent. Did people think that violence would somehow disappear because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a ban on handguns violated the Second Amendment right to bear arms?

Originally Posted By: LurchHow the hell does an increase in firearm sales = white supremacist? What sort of logic is that? Obama has said many times he was looking at renewing the ban, of course people are going to get them while they can if that is a possibility. Sorry FT but you're grasping at straws on that one, and seems to be blatant flame bait.

There are a number of reports like these ones that I posted earlier: Federal agency warns of radicals on right. Obama's election fuels US extremism: leaked report. What do good citizens want with assault weapons anyhow? As they say, the Second Amendment right to bear arms aint about duck hunting or target shooting.

Originally Posted By: LurchI don't want criminals to have guns, or access to them. I don't want innocent people to do. I don't want accidents to happen. I don't want innocent people to be forced into becoming victims because the government wont allow them to protect themselves. I want the *choice* to arm myself or not. I would rather not rely on someone else to protect me.

Lurch, if you really dont want criminals to have guns and innocent people to die, then why do you support putting semi-automatic assault weapons back on the streets and removing handgun bans? This does not add up, because you say one thing and do the opposite.


Lots of people is not specific-who is saying it? That's what Lurch asked.

More guns sales has no direct correlation to white supremacists. They already have their stockpile. wink Maybe it has to do will all the soldier coming home and deciding to take up sport shooting...The world is full of maybes

Guns are not the problem. Most people own them and never have a problem. And to say assault weapon or semi, it just serves no real purpose to your arguments. Do you know all the different type of weapons that fall into that category.
And generally, many of these weapons aren't bought legally. Ban or no ban, they will still be there


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:If you have the feeling I'm "grasping on straws" then maybe I've not put it in a coding that you comprehend, right?

Problem is that felons seem to have quite a good access to firearms and ONE reason for this are 2nd hand sales without proper background check and the amount of firearms that are freely available in the US today.

But honestly I have no idea what you're referring to... maybe check your target before aiming? wink

However I'm just punching in "gun accident" and this is what the search returns with(in USA, I just post a few...)

Originally Posted By: mlive June 12th 2009(...)Authorities said Hauxwell accidentally shot himself in the chest Tuesday while preparing to clean a gun. He was discovered by his wife, Margaret, in the basement of their home around 7:30 p.m. (...)

Originally Posted By: ReutersNEW YORK (Reuters) - An arbitrator has ruled that former New York Giants receiver Plaxico Burress can keep bonus money he earned prior to accidentally shooting himself in a New York nightclub last year [sic: 2008].

(...)

Burress was arrested in December and charged with criminal possession of a weapon after his gun accidentally discharged while tucked into his trousers, with the bullet wounding his leg.

Originally Posted By: UPIMILLTOWN, Ind., April 22 (UPI) -- Police say a 2-year-old girl in Milltown, Ind., fatally shot herself with a gun owned by her stepfather, who serves as a reserve police officer.

Originally Posted By: reporternewsOriginally published 12:57 a.m., May 22, 2009
Updated 12:57 a.m., May 22, 2009

BRECKENRIDGE For the second time in two months, a Breckenridge youth has been shot and killed in an apparent accident. Jesse White, 12, was shot in the head Wednesday evening at his grandparents home on CR 201 near Hubbard Creek Lake, Stephens County Sheriff Dan Young said.

White was apparently staying at the home of his grandparents because his parents were out of town. Reports indicate that a rifle was being handled at the home and a shot was fired, striking White in the head, Young said, declining to elaborate because an investigation is ongoing. Several people, including some relatives and juveniles, were apparently at the home when the shooting happened.

Originally Posted By: fox13March 9th 2009 PROVO, Utah - Katelyn Mikolasy, 16, was accidentally killed Friday when a 13-year-old boy was playing with a gun he didn't know was loaded. On Monday, students at Timpview High School wore their Sunday best in honor of Katelyn. Crisis team members were available at the school Monday for students who wanted to talk about what happened. One grief counselor, Heather Frank, also encourages parents to talk with their teenage children after tragedies like this.

Originally Posted By: NRAThe firearm accident death rate is at an all-time annual low, 0.2 per 100,000 population, down 94% since the all-time high in 1904. Since 1930, the annual number of such deaths has decreased 80%, to an all-time low, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of firearms has quintupled. Among children, such deaths have decreased 90% since 1975. Today, the odds are more than a million to one, against a child in the U.S. dying in a firearm accident.

0.2 per 100.000 pop. still adds up to 2.800 kills of innocent people per annum - even according to the NRA. No matter whether it's on an "all-time low"... this is only about the fatalities due to the accidental discharge... not speaking of the "intended discharge" at all here...





rolleyes


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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
faith, there was a good discussion about what I said to Lurch on SBS world News Australia, last night 12 June 2009, but I could not find the transcript.

Perhaps you could actually read the links Ive posted about FBI warnings on white supremacy and increases sales of assault weapons like AR 15s etc.

Congressional debates about immigration and gun control also make extremist groups suspicious and give them a rallying cry, the report says.
"It is unclear if either bill will be passed into law; nonetheless, a correlation may exist between the potential passage of gun control legislation and increased hoarding of ammunition, weapons stockpiling, and paramilitary training activities among rightwing extremists," the report said. The FBI was quoted Monday as saying that, since November, more than 7 million people have applied for criminal background checks in order to buy weapons. The Homeland Security report added: "Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, including militias and white supremacists, have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point, and recruiting tool..." That was April 2009.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, I wasnt happy with my previous response, so Im hoping this, plus my previous post will help answer your questions.

Originally Posted By: faith people is not specific-who is saying it? That's what Lurch asked.

As to the people, they were on blogs and social networking sites. I think the reaction to this shooting, and hate crimes in particular has tipped the scales against gun violence in America, unlike other massacres. Last night I saw thousands of people visiting the museum in protest over this hate crime on SBS World New Australia June 13. This is the original report Museum-shooter-faces-death-penalty, June 12 and there has been many news stories like Right-wing backlash against Obama. I think Obama will now be able to act , and there will be tightening of gun laws back to at least the Clinton laws.

Quote:More guns sales has no direct correlation to white supremacists. They already have their stockpile. Maybe it has to do will all the soldier coming home and deciding to take up sport shooting...The world is full of maybes

I think that is answered in the FBI report, link above.

Originally Posted By: faithGuns are not the problem. Most people own them and never have a problem. And to say assault weapon or semi, it just serves no real purpose to your arguments. Do you know all the different type of weapons that fall into that category. And generally, many of these weapons aren't bought legally. Ban or no ban, they will still be there

The definition of assault weapons is outlined in the Clinton weapons ban, and has been linked a number of times already. But its the Guns are not the problem or guns dont kill people statements that got me thinking.

Now this is a bit tongue-in-cheek so I hope you and others take it in that light. Now, I was thinking what if it were posssible, and we could actually do something so guns did not kill people? Then I had a lightbulb moment, well three actually ubbidea ubbidea ubbidea

ubbidea Deactivate guns. One way to solve the gun violence problem would be if people got their guns deactivated, so they could not harm people any more. The incentive for this could be a i-pod or something useful. Its a classic win-win situation. People get to keep their beloved guns, get a i-pod and guns dont result in death of innocent people like the three year old girl shooting her two year old brother

ubbidea Pink camo gear. Make hunters wear pink camo gear as requirement for getting a hunting licence and hunting. This would mean hunters like Dick Cheney would be less likely to shoot people, and it would give animals a chance against semi-automatics, laser sights, night vision scopes, what ever etc.

ubbidea Rambo day. I wouldnt feel comfortable with people taking concealed weapons into places of worship, or any other place for that matter. So what about a day when all the people carrying concealed weapons wear a pink a Rambo head band so we can see whose packing? Pink Rambo head band could be sold for charity, and the money given to worthy cause like protecting kids from gun violence.

Thats it, cheers wink



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Posted:Stone, guess they're busy stockpiling for 2012 wink

Originally Posted By: APWASHINGTON Government efforts to stop the flow of guns from the United States to Mexico have suffered in recent years from having no clear plan to combat gunrunners affiliated with drug cartels, investigators have concluded.

(...)

"While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, over 20,000, or around 87 percent, of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States," the GAO's Ford says in testimony prepared for a House subcommittee hearing on Thursday. The GAO is the investigative arm of Congress.

full article

That's only one point, where the US gun problem fowls over its borders... shrug get your act together guys

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1245307663)
EDIT_REASON: link


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Stone
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Posted:Thats interesting Fire Tom. The last I heard about this crisis was Hillary Clinton was about to bring in the National Guard. The other part of this story is that assault weapons are also being sold to drug gangs in Canada. It seems to me that since Bush let the assault weapons ban slip there has been huge influx in the sales of assault weapons to drug gangs in both Mexico and Canada. According to local news reports, six hundred gun shops were set up along the Mexican boarder after the assault weapon ban was lifted. It would seem to me that escalating violence vindicated Bill Clintons original assault weapon ban, and it should be reinstated. However, this suggestion was met with the usual cries of what problem? We are not responsible. Dont stop our fun.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:yea, some rednecks are not very pro-Mexican are they?

It's "don't stop our fun" and "don't stop our profits"!

I'm only focussing on gun accidents in the US for the sake of the topic, gee... if I'd be to extend that to worldwide...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Fire TomI'm only focussing on gun accidents in the US for the sake of the topic, gee... if I'd be to extend that to worldwide...


Fire Tom, as my old Gran used to say "there is no such thing as an accident".

Lock-and-Load


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:7 teens shot at Detroit bus stop: report

Originally Posted By: ABCSeven teenagers have been shot at a Detroit bus stop and police are searching for the two shooters, local media are reporting.

Two men wearing ski masks approached the teens after school ended (5:00am AEST) and said "you know who we're looking for" before shooting 15 rounds of ammunition, a police spokesman told the Detroit News.

Among those shot were three boys and two girls aged 14 to 16. At least four of them had just left a nearby high school after classes ended for the day.

"We haven't gotten word on their conditions yet," Officer Dan Danakowski told the paper.

Cody Ninth Grade Academy principal Jonathan Matthews said there were no problems at the school earlier in the day.

"Today was a normal day at school. There was nothing that happened (out of the ordinary)," he told the News.

The area is known for a high level of gang activity.

A police spokesman did not immediately return a call for comment.

So the world keeps asking, when is America going to do something about it's gun violence problem?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:http://www.ci.mil.wi.us/6month2009crimereducton
br>
lest the dour people make readers think the world is all doom and gloom. crime has gone down in Milwaukee again


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone
So the world keeps asking, when is America going to do something about it's gun violence problem?


You keep asking, lot's of people in this world don't have a problem with it.

It is sad that some deranged individuals decide to attack others for what appears to be no reason, it is also sad that the weapons they chose were guns -- giving more anti-gun people "ammunition" in their fight to stop something that isn't really a problem. Things like this happen, I wish the news would quit bringing up every instance to shock and awe the population, which is more than 6 billion now... So those people shot were what? I will tell you what, one in a billion. Can you ban people from owning knives because too many people are getting stabbed to death? Keep your knife sharpener at the target range? Come on.


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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, good work.

Originally Posted By: doppelgangerYou keep asking, lot's of people in this world don't have a problem with it.

It is sad that some deranged individuals decide to attack others for what appears to be no reason, it is also sad that the weapons they chose were guns -- giving more anti-gun people "ammunition" in their fight to stop something that isn't really a problem. Things like this happen, I wish the news would quit bringing up every instance to shock and awe the population, which is more than 6 billion now... So those people shot were what? I will tell you what, one in a billion. Can you ban people from owning knives because too many people are getting stabbed to death? Keep your knife sharpener at the target range? Come on.

Lot's, of Americans you mean.

Things like that happen in America because people think the second amendment gives them the right to do what they want, and they can solve all their problems by purchasing a firearm. Americans also associate guns with masculinity, an association that is not lost by members of the NRA who use the second amendment and jingoism to market assault weapons.

Trying to stop the media from telling the truth, so you can sweep your dirty little gun violence problems under the carpet, will not reduce American gun violence. The people who get shot are human beings, look it up. If that one human being in a billion that got shot, was family or a friend, then I think you might have a more sympathetic reaction.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone
Things like that happen in America because people think the second amendment gives them the right to do what they want, and they can solve all their problems by purchasing a firearm. Americans also associate guns with masculinity, an association that is not lost by members of the NRA who use the second amendment and jingoism to market assault weapons.

Trying to stop the media from telling the truth, so you can sweep your dirty little gun violence problems under the carpet, will not reduce American gun violence. The people who get shot are human beings, look it up. If that one human being in a billion that got shot, was family or a friend, then I think you might have a more sympathetic reaction.



You assume too much, and I have had plenty of people in my life die due to violence, and violence is just what you're talking about, regardless of the weapon. I am not saying the media should stop reporting things, I am saying that before the media came about to reach every corner of the earth these things still happened, it's just that now they can get people like you guys up in a tizzy. It also gives us pro gun people a good chuckle at your absurd reasoning. In the end we have guns, I think anyone that has a problem with that should come get them from us.

The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it away. - Thomas Jefferson. They are our rules, if you live here and don't like them: Leave. If you don't live here: Don't come, you might get shot.

Originally Posted By: Stone
Lot's, of Americans you mean.


Assuming that's what I mean, if Americans want there guns, what business do you have to whine about it? I am sure if I looked hard enough at your laws, I could find one that endangers everyone, but do I really care? Sure I love you for the people you are, but I am not so ignorant as to think I have the right to tell you how to live your lives, or how your laws should be. What right do you have to tell me I can't bear arms? The cause for Humanity? I bet you could buy enough medical care for impoverished 3rd world children to far surpass the lives you hear about being lost in "tragic shootings." In fact I'd bet on it.

But assuming I mean what I wrote and not your twisted perception and denial (which you seem to carry with you in every response: redirection here, smuge the truth there, never answer direct questions) I mean a lot of the world doesn't have a problem with it.

EDITED_BY: doppelGanger (1248235095)


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Rancor
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Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneThats interesting Fire Tom. The last I heard about this crisis was Hillary Clinton was about to bring in the National Guard. The other part of this story is that assault weapons are also being sold to drug gangs in Canada. It seems to me that since Bush let the assault weapons ban slip there has been huge influx in the sales of assault weapons to drug gangs in both Mexico and Canada. According to local news reports, six hundred gun shops were set up along the Mexican boarder after the assault weapon ban was lifted. It would seem to me that escalating violence vindicated Bill Clintons original assault weapon ban, and it should be reinstated. However, this suggestion was met with the usual cries of what problem? We are not responsible. Dont stop our fun.



Also, the 90% of guns coming from Mexico having origins in the US is a bunch of garbage for the people that refuse to think logically. In truth, the guns that are "recovered" from Mexico and sent to the US for analysis are guns that have a reason to be sent back here, ie they were attributed to America. The 90% gun statistic is true for the -17%- of guns that are sent here after recovery. Why would Mexico just send every gun they find over to America? Does that really make sense to you (well knowing you I suppose it does, but try to think real hard about it)? Do you really think Mexico reports to us? The truth is, many more of the weapons are from Russia, and other areas of South America. So to make it clear: 90% of the 17% of guns sent to us are from here, and FYI, they are not all "scary assault rifles." Perhaps you should follow up on what you write before spouting it as gospel in your war to make a peaceful planet that overgrows it's resources.


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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGangerYou assume too much, and I have had plenty of people in my life die due to violence, and violence is just what you're talking about, regardless of the weapon. I am not saying the media should stop reporting things, I am saying that before the media came about to reach every corner of the earth these things still happened, it's just that now they can get people like you guys up in a tizzy. It also gives us pro gun people a good chuckle at your absurd reasoning. In the end we have guns, I think anyone that has a problem with that should come get them from us.

Its true, I assumed sympathy and compassion. What you are saying about the media is that it was ok to shoot people before the media started telling people what was actually going on in America.

Originally Posted By: doppelGangerThe beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it away. - Thomas Jefferson. They are our rules, if you live here and don't like them: Leave. If you don't live here: Don't come, you might get shot.

Always with the threats of violence and shooting people. Which just backs up my earlier suggestions that a certain sections of America turn to their guns because they have failed to develop non-violent communication skills. Thomas Jeffersons comments on the second amendment were written in the background of the war of independence, which ended over 250 years ago. However, I would not be the first to suggest that some Americans are trapped in a time warp, and still think they are fighting the British. By the way, what ever happened to the bit about belonging to a well regulated militia? I dont think Thomas Jefferson ever envisaged out of control kids running around with assault weapons.

Here are the words of another President:

Originally Posted By: JFKFor time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the future.

Good advice.

Originally Posted By: doppelGangerAssuming that's what I mean, if Americans want there guns, what business do you have to whine about it? I am sure if I looked hard enough at your laws, I could find one that endangers everyone, but do I really care? Sure I love you for the people you are, but I am not so ignorant as to think I have the right to tell you how to live your lives, or how your laws should be. What right do you have to tell me I can't bear arms? The cause for Humanity? I bet you could buy enough medical care for impoverished 3rd world children to far surpass the lives you hear about being lost in "tragic shootings." In fact I'd bet on it.

But assuming I mean what I wrote and not your twisted perception and denial (which you seem to carry with you in every response: redirection here, smuge the truth there, never answer direct questions) I mean a lot of the world doesn't have a problem with it.

We matured as a country when we decided to remove surplus guns from the community. We did that in an effort to reduce gun violence. Obviously, you like violence, and living in a violent country. The use of violence was how America tried to solve all it's problems, which mostly failed. The invasion of Iraq is testament to that. Anyhow, now finally America has great leadership, and there will be an end to violent solutions and violent gun laws.

Originally Posted By: doppelGangerAlso, the 90% of guns coming from Mexico having origins in the US is a bunch of garbage for the people that refuse to think logically. In truth, the guns that are "recovered" from Mexico and sent to the US for analysis are guns that have a reason to be sent back here, ie they were attributed to America. The 90% gun statistic is true for the -17%- of guns that are sent here after recovery. Why would Mexico just send every gun they find over to America? Does that really make sense to you? Do you really think Mexico reports to us? The truth is, many more of the weapons are from Russia, and other areas of South America. So to make it clear: 90% of the 17% of guns sent to us are from here, and FYI, they are not all "scary assault rifles."

The assault weapons going into Mexico and Canada are sourced from America. The number of gun shops along the boarder is testament to that, as are a number of TV news repots and documentaries. As to "scary assault rifles. I dont think they are scary, as much as stupid. Letting the civilian population have access to assault weapons that are purposely designed to kill human beings is just plain stupid. The "scary" label is just advertising. According to gun shop owners, people are much more likely to purchase a scary assault rifle instead of plain old hunting rifle, because apparently it boosts their ego and other parts.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Oh I guess I'll jump in to doppelGanger's defense wink

Quote:So the world keeps asking, when is America going to do something about it's gun violence problem?

I don't think America has a *gun* violence problem. We have a violence problem, the same as the rest of the world. The gun is just the tool. Do you really think the violence is caused by the presence of the tool? And if so, should we really be treating it by removing said tool? Especially when guns have just as much potential to stop/end a crime and save a life.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best solution would be one where no one is hurt or dies. Second best solution would be if the criminal was the one to be hurt or killed. I would much rather have an armed populous willing to defend themselves that a population of sheep looking towards their nanny state government to protect them from themselves. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I think they should be allowed access to the tools that would allow them protection.

Quote:Things like that happen in America because people think the second amendment gives them the right to do what they want, and they can solve all their problems by purchasing a firearm. Americans also associate guns with masculinity, an association that is not lost by members of the NRA who use the second amendment and jingoism to market assault weapons.

Really? Cause all I'm seeing is you assuming thats what American's think and feel. A large majority of firearm marketing campaigns right now are marketing towards females, and they have *always* been about self defense, not to promote vigilantism. If you look at the gun community, the *actual* gun community, not the Hollywood portrayal, or the skewed media portrayal, they are responsible, reasonable people. Not psycho gun nuts hellbent on shooting anyone that sets foot on their lawn.

You seem to think that because someone has a gun on their hip, they are going to become more confrontational, and more violent. But if you actually look at the concealed carry communities, the opposite is plainly obvious.

Quote:
Trying to stop the media from telling the truth, so you can sweep your dirty little gun violence problems under the carpet, will not reduce American gun violence. The people who get shot are human beings, look it up. If that one human being in a billion that got shot, was family or a friend, then I think you might have a more sympathetic reaction.

I can't speak for doppel, but I don't think that what he was trying to say at all. Our media is far from 'fair and balanced' and they report on crimes and violence constantly. In a way they are glorifying it, whether they mean to or not. The fact that they give it so much exposure numbs the population to it's true significance, and makes it seem far more commonplace than it really is.

The few times guns are used by the good guys, for good reason, the 'good' guys are routinely vilified while the criminal is victimized. "He was only a teenager" "The gun was a toy" "The police shouldn't have shot the crazy man with a knife running towards them".

Quote:The assault weapons going into Mexico and Canada are sourced from America. The number of gun shops along the boarder is testament to that, as are a number of TV news repots and documentaries. As to "scary assault rifles. I dont think they are scary, as much as stupid. Letting the civilian population have access to assault weapons that are purposely designed to kill human beings is just plain stupid. The "scary" label is just advertising. According to gun shop owners, people are much more likely to purchase a scary assault rifle instead of plain old hunting rifle, because apparently it boosts their ego and other parts.

You mean the number of gun shops in states that pro-gun laws and populations that happen to be along the borders? You can't buy a gun if you don't live in the state, let alone in the country. So unless all of those gun shops are crooked (which I doubt) your stats mean nothing.

You keep going back to 'assault weapons'. But I still say you're not looking at it correctly. You are judging a gun by it's cosmetics, it's history, and its looks and not on it's function, and dare I say deadliness. The VAST majority of so called "assault" weapons function exactly the same as any other semi automatic gun, and are usually in a smaller caliber. A hunting rifle could take you out far faster, and from further away, but you don't seem worried about those. You are indeed scared of them, and trying to play macho and you're not, "they're just stupid" isn't fooling anyone. You don't understand guns, or gun culture, and you are threatened by it, so you want it to go away.

That's how I see it anyways..


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneAlways with the threats of violence and shooting people. Which just backs up my earlier suggestions that a certain sections of America turn to their guns because they have failed to develop non-violent communication skills. Thomas Jeffersons comments on the second amendment were written in the background of the war of independence, which ended over 250 years ago. However, I would not be the first to suggest that some Americans are trapped in a time warp, and still think they are fighting the British. By the way, what ever happened to the bit about belonging to a well regulated militia? I dont think Thomas Jefferson ever envisaged out of control kids running around with assault weapons.

You are proving my point more than you know, and with Lurch having said what he said, it reaffirms what I said previously about you changing your responses, driving the point away from the ones we try to make, and avoiding the things you don't want to talk about. I went through everything posted here since I last posted anything, and saw a very recognizable pattern of many people talking openly with non-violent communication skills, yet you refusing to listen to any rationality at all. Even Lurch agreed with some of the things you said, and like I said before, Lurch knew exactly what I meant (and it was not hard because it's what I wrote) while you interpreted it in a ridiculous self serving way. I feel it is you my friend who has lost his communication skills, and let's get real: People that won't be rational and logical can not be spoken to, so in the end it comes down to: Come get them or be quiet, because there is no use talking with you about it.

Your comments about independence and a time warp are so misguided I won't even get in to it with you.

"Out of control kids running around with assault weapons?" Come on, snap back to reality, not the one force fed to you by the tv. Sure some misguided people get a hold of RIFLES (because that is all an "assault weapon" is) and do terrible things. But our country would not be the first to harbor such individuals, nor the last to punish them severely and recognize that those event happen about as often or less as people dying to lightning each year. That is NEVER to say I condone it, I abhor it, but like I and Lurch have already stated, guns are just the vehicle of violence, and it will happen one way or another.

I have said my peace, and hope you think on it Stone.

EDITED_BY: doppelGanger (1248373895)
EDIT_REASON: Because I am having trouble spelling today.


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Stone
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Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Originally Posted By: LurchSo the world keeps asking, when is America going to do something about it's gun violence problem?

I don't think America has a *gun* violence problem.

Lurch, mate you are in denial. As far as gun deaths in America goes, the statistic suggest otherwise. America has a significantly higher rate of gun death compared to other developed countries. Yes, I do think that this high rate of gun death is related to guns.

Originally Posted By: LurchI've said it before and I'll say it again, the best solution would be one where no one is hurt or dies. Second best solution would be if the criminal was the one to be hurt or killed./quote]

Agreed on the best solution, look no further than the Australian example where we removed surplus guns from the community.

[quote=Lurch]I would much rather have an armed populous willing to defend themselves that a population of sheep looking towards their nanny state government to protect them from themselves. I don't think that's unreasonable, and I think they should be allowed access to the tools that would allow them protection.

Come on Lurch, the biggest cause of gun death and injury is gun violence in the home. Kellermann proved that, and that because that didnt fit in with big macho sheep dog image of wannabe heroes, the NRA persecuted him, and I mean persecuted.

Originally Posted By: LurchI Really? Cause all I'm seeing is you assuming thats what American's think and feel. A large majority of firearm marketing campaigns right now are marketing towards females, and they have *always* been about self defense, not to promote vigilantism. If you look at the gun community, the *actual* gun community, not the Hollywood portrayal, or the skewed media portrayal, they are responsible, reasonable people. Not psycho gun nuts hellbent on shooting anyone that sets foot on their lawn.

Really! Id suggest the NRA is tapping into the female market to sell more guns. The gun-community in America is the NRA, a group of self-styled vigilantes in camo gear. Just look at what their leaders are saying: "Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal..." the motor city madman. No more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society.
Jeff Cooper. What the NRA is not run by psycho nuts?

Originally Posted By: LurchYou seem to think that because someone has a gun on their hip, they are going to become more confrontational, and more violent. But if you actually look at the concealed carry communities, the opposite is plainly obvious.

I do think someone who has a gun on their hip is going to be more confrontational. You know that is why they had the famous Check your guns at the door policy at saloons in the Wild West. Frontier towns introduced strict highly successful- gun control measures to reduce violence. Remember, the gunfight at the OK corral, was about keeping guns out of Tombstone.


Originally Posted By: LurchI can't speak for doppel, but I don't think that what he was trying to say at all. Our media is far from 'fair and balanced' and they report on crimes and violence constantly.

Stop blaming the media for your problems. All they do is report what happens. Suggest you watch World News Australia for a great coverage of world events.

Originally Posted By: LurchYou mean the number of gun shops in states that pro-gun laws and populations that happen to be along the borders? You can't buy a gun if you don't live in the state, let alone in the country. So unless all of those gun shops are crooked (which I doubt) your stats mean nothing.

Got that in one wink

Originally Posted By: LurchYou keep going back to 'assault weapons'. But I still say you're not looking at it correctly. You are judging a gun by it's cosmetics, it's history, and its looks and not on it's function, and dare I say deadliness. The VAST majority of so called "assault" weapons function exactly the same as any other semi automatic gun, and are usually in a smaller caliber. A hunting rifle could take you out far faster,

Exactly, they are not hunting rifles, they are assault weapons designed to kill human beings, and they have NO place in the community. So why would someone want to AR15 if they werent planning to kill humans?



Doppelganger, if you are not prepared to own your words, the don't say them.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:I am sorry, what words did I disown? <-- I really want an answer to this one.

Originally Posted By: Stone
Lurch, mate you are in denial. As far as gun deaths in America goes, the statistic suggest otherwise. America has a significantly higher rate of gun death compared to other developed countries. Yes, I do think that this high rate of gun death is related to guns.


And you don't think it's possible that the lack of gun deaths are made up for with other deaths utilizing other weapons?

Quote:
Really! Id suggest the NRA is tapping into the female market to sell more guns.


Last time I checked the NRA did not sell guns.

Quote:
Stop blaming the media for your problems. All they do is report what happens. Suggest you watch World News Australia for a great coverage of world events.


Neither of us blamed the media, I simply said that this stuff happened before the media, but now that it broadcasts these things all the time, it makes it look like an every day thing. And like Lurch said, the news is very unbalanced, and employ scare tactics for the ignorant to latch on to. *cough*

Quote:
Exactly, they are not hunting rifles, they are assault weapons designed to kill human beings, and they have NO place in the community. So why would someone want to AR15 if they werent planning to kill humans?


Actually most of the "assault weapons you are referring to use a smaller caliber than hunting rifles. What a gun is designed for is far different than what it's employed for. I could kill someone with a potato peeler if I really wanted to.

EDITED_BY: doppelGanger (1248389632)


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: Thomas Jefferson"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it away."

Thomas Jefferson - 3rd president of the United States 1801 to 1809, principal author of the declaration of independence.

Originally Posted By: Bill Clinton"We've banned these guns ['assault' weapons] because you don't need an Uzi to go deer hunting, and everyone knows it." Weekly radio address, 15 Nov 97, the Roosevelt Room, the White House

Bill Clinton - 42nd president of the United States 1993 to 2001, presided over the longest period of peace-time economic expansion in American history, which included a balanced budget and a reported federal surplus.

Originally Posted By: Sylvester Stallone"The only way to make America safe: go house to house and confiscate every gun." (Access Hollywood, 8 June 98)

Sylvester Stallone - Hollywood actor - famous for his role as "Rambo", a Vietnam Veteran.

Originally Posted By: DoppelgangerThey are our rules, if you live here and don't like them: Leave. If you don't live here: Don't come, you might get shot.

sounds a bit like faschist attitude to me - I followed both of your suggestions. Had the chance to migrate and live in the US, passed and don't intend to visit any time soon.

At the same time: are you suggesting that those US Americans (who don't like the 2nd ammendment either) should leave the country?

weavesmiley

Doppelganger: You might not agree with some of the rules and laws and customs of Europe and Australia - can't say for the latter, but you're still welcome in the former (and don't worry, most likely we won't shoot you).

The reason why "the world around you" is concerned about your attitude is because the US (gun) problems are spilling over the borders of your country. Not only to your neighbors (Canada and Mexico) but also worldwide.

Foulmouth language and crude behavior against fellow citizens and the environment is spurred, ignorance is promoted - but most important you look good and fancy...

Not saying that this is *only* due to US "culture" but saying that the reflection of US "culture" and politics are promoting this attitude throughout the world.

Originally Posted By: LurchI don't think America has a *gun* violence problem. We have a violence problem, the same as the rest of the world. The gun is just the tool. Do you really think the violence is caused by the presence of the tool? And if so, should we really be treating it by removing said tool? Especially when guns have just as much potential to stop/end a crime and save a life.

The violence is not caused by the tool alone, but the presence of the tool makes the violence deadly - and as such irreversible.

The US (unfortunately) today is not ready to take the reponsibility for the sad effects its culture has on the planet and mankind. Not trying to paint "the US as the ultimate adolescent" but saying that the tacky and ruthless capitalist attitude is promoting the worst in human attitudes: greed and recklessness.

We're not more than asking the US to finally *grow up* - instead of just *old*. It might be of importance to realize that the US is one of the youngest global superpowers - just as Islam is one of the worlds youngest (and largest) monotheistic religions - and as such is in dear need of self-reflection and adjustment to ideals of peace, cooperation and empathy...

You could kill someone with your bare hands, there is no question about it... it's just a lot more attitude and effort involved than pulling a trigger. True these things happened throughout times - and I'm not a friend of attention-grabbing media coverage - but it's positive that we do have information about what is (still) going on in the world today and what issues (still) need to be adressed.

It has been pointed out a few times throughout this thread: the second ammendment was written in quite different times and under different (political) circumstances - the US does not have a well trained militia, it has a well trained military and as such is sufficiently protected against an external threat.

It's about time you realize that you're not living in the 18th century any more... the world is round, the UK and Europe are not your enemies and (hard to believe but) even the Bush administration has adhered to basic democratic and constitutional regulations wink

The NRA is not selling guns, true - last time I checked Osama Bin Laden didn't kill anyone either wink


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Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Americans have never had access to an "Uzi", or any other automatic weapon for that matter, and he is right, if we DID have them, we would not need them for hunting. But who is to say that's all a gun is for anyway?

I really don't care what Sylvester Stallone's opinion is... Or any other famous movie star.

I am saying that if someone really does have a problem with it, then yeah, get out. America was founded on the Constitution, we are free outside of that (well not anymore really). If you can't abide by the Constitution, then you should not be in America, simple. Everything outside the Constitution you can believe or adhere to in any way you want.

As for the not shooting me in Australia, I know that very well, just as I expected you to catch that you are not really going to get shot, the chances are so low. It was an effort to get you guys to realize that with all your worry and grief, in the end if you come here, you're not going to get shot.

"Foulmouth language and crude behavior against fellow citizens and the environment is spurred, ignorance is promoted - but most important you look good and fancy..." -- I am not sure what you are referring to here.

I think America is accountable for our actions in allowing citizens to own guns, but certainly not *responsible* for the deaths they cause. There is a large difference, don't blame America for an Americans mistake, blame that American.

You're right, the Constitution was written in a different age in different times. What you guys don't seem to understand is that regardless of those times and events, the underlying principle has never died. And that is why we hold it in so much esteem.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: DGYou're right, the Constitution was written in a different age in different times. What you guys don't seem to understand is that regardless of those times and events, the underlying principle has never died. And that is why we hold it in so much esteem.

What you fail to understand, bro' is that we don't question the underlying principles of the constitution as in *freedom* and such - but that some need to comprehend with the fact that any ones freedom of an individual and a nation should end where the unnecessary suffering of another begins.

(I hope your desinterest in the opinions of famous actors and movie stars doesn't stop at Mr. "Rambo" Stallone but includes Mr. "NRA" Carlton Heston just as well wink )

Sorry but I feel compelled to repeat that the attitude ("I am saying that if someone really does have a problem with it, then yeah, get out. America was founded on the Constitution (...) If you can't abide by the Constitution, then you should not be in America, simple. Everything outside the Constitution you can believe or adhere to in any way you want.") is (at least close to) a faschist one...

I am certain that a significant amount of (born) Americans, (descendants of) immigrants and natives, are having a problem with at least that part of the constitution - it still is their inalienable right to peacefully live inside the US. Maybe you dislike it, but they are the very part of the America that this ammendmend tried to protect...

As long as they use democratic and peaceful means to change the constitution, you will have to live with them.

However: If you hand a child a gun, you are more responsible for the misconduct that happens thereafter than this child.
If those who are carrying guns can't handle them, because they are not mature enough, then ultimately it is the responsibility of the government to act. If it fails to act, then it is to be held responsible... shrug

And to rephrase my comment: There are some parts of the "american culture" and "values" that are ridiculing the very principles of "freedom"... I personally had the "chance" to observe a degrading trend in (interpersonal) communication and attitude towards each other and the environment, whilst superficial values and "the quick buck" are promoted...

Unfortunately the US are living (way) beyond their means - very much on cost of all the rest. It would be preferrable to advance by setting examples of compassion and empathy and by joining the (civilized) international community on all (civilised) levels smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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