the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: Stout
So the shooter's already had brass knuckles used on him...and he knows that without a doubt that his multiple assailants mean him harm, and if they were indeed threatening him with something like say....coming back to "get" him....then it might just indeed have been a righteous shoot in the face of a very real threat.
Heck...if I had someone threatening to come back at a later time and do something like throwing a molotov cocktail through my window and I'd already been attacked by that same person, I'd consider that a very real threat and would take steps to prevent the threatened action.
Written by: Stout
Are you really SURE you want to support drug testing by the government ? Even if ( for now ) it's only confined to an issue like handgun ownership ? Sounds way to patriot astish to me. What's next, drug testing to renew a drivers licence ? A positive result automatically resulting in a conviction for possession ( yikes...there's those Thailand stories again )
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: Stone
I don’t think killing is accepted by Christianity or Buddhism. Martyrdom is a different topic.
Killing is a horrible experience. So I’d say the principal of “Thou shalt no kill” is the overriding factor in both Christianity and Buddhism. As far as emotions go, if we remove the emotion, we can understand that killing is killing. ie. take out murder, self-protection, war, or what ever out of killing, and at the end of the day killing is killing.
Written by: FireTom
The guy on his porch, firing at the crowd actually killed a man, who was sitting in his car. He suffered a fatal shot in his back and the jury let him walk free..
Written by: FireTom
where have I not quoted my sources? Please point it out to me and I will do my best to fill the gap. So far I thought I always quoted my sources. If there is no explicit link, it still would be easy to punch in the names of the people involved and Google does the rest for you.
Written by: FireTom
Faith: You quoted me for having said that "guns are evil" - I asked you to show me where I said that. You don't. I explained myself many times. Stop trolling, please. STOP TROLLING!
Written by: FireTom
The law is a license to murder, as proven by the verdict quoted above. At the time this thread started, Patriarch was referring to a different statute of the Colorado law, not the one in effect in this case.
Written by: FireTom
I post pictures about child soldiers - nobody asks me for sources, but Lurch questions their authenticity and I have no reason to believe that the last pictures got photoshopped.
Written by: FireTom
You cease to address the gun issue in the US and continue business as usual, you promote gun ownership and a gun to be the solution to problems/ the only reasonably protection - more innocent, "law abiding citizens" and more innocent children in the US and everywhere on the planet will die.
Written by: Stone
Lurch, I’m not against self defense. Not all Buddhist’s are against self-defense either. I’m sure the Shaolin monks are highly trained and some of the most famous martial artists in the world. I’m sure they are capable of killing in self defense.
Written by: FireTom
you're a criminal and as such you should not be legally own a gun.
Written by: FireTom
A guns design is primary for killing or causing great physical harm and a cars design is primarily for transportation - a non-lethal activity. A car can eventually be (ab)used to kill another human being - now show me what you can transport with your gun, other than ammo.
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All: You are avoiding to make a statement upon the fact that the arms industry supplies weapons to conflicts all over the planet. How can I take you and your participation here serious, if you turn a blind eye on aspects of this discussion, just because it's inconvenient and would much likely disarm you?
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I do not say that you can't defend or should sacrifice yourself. But if you feel that you are in need of arms in order to do so -IMHO- you have a moral obligation to change circumstances in such a way that the threat is ending
Written by: Stout
I'm sure we could all imagine scenarios where a defender with a gun could make a decision to merely wound an attacker, and just may have a "plan" in mind as just what they'd do when confronted with deadly force....A likely scenario....first display the weapon, second, ask " can I get away with just winging this attacker?... third shoot to kill.
Written by: FireTom
The companies Lurch referred to, were listed on Wikipedia, at Wiki on the arms industry. His statement that the major manufacturers (listed there) would not engage in manufacturing hand guns (as sold in the US) was simply false. Which is one of the reasons why I am not going with his argumentation anymore - he's only trying to dilute this discussion and resent to reason.
Written by: FireTom
Yes, I would support drug testing for ppl who apply for a gun license and most certainly for ppl applying for a CCWP.
No, I wouldn't support drug testing for renewing drivers licenses - and most definitely not positive results leading to convictions, or any other effect other than revoking the application.
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I'm not tying children soldiers to guns "made in America" - at least not primarily. As Lurch said: the US is not the biggest (hand) gun manufacturer in the world - but it's the biggest market.
Written by: FireTom
They only had one devastating war on their own soil - and that's a long time ago.
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Guns make it MUCH easier to kill someone. MUCH easier than with a sword - would you not agree? And the crusades are far more past than devastating wars on US soil.
Written by: Stone
Anyhow, it’s really about the principal you support. You are for violence or for non violence. The overriding principal for Shaolin is non-violence. Shaolin are subordinate to the Buddhist principles of non-violence. I see the America righteous shooting as supporting violence.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
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One killing is not the same as another, the same that killing a chicken for food is not the same as torturing a chicken for entertainment, aka fighting. One is morally acceptable, the other is not.
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It's perfectly reasonable to assume that simply going back inside will not stop the attack, since they have already broken into his house to attack him. They are also obviously armed. The foreman brings up a completely valid point that you do NOT have all the facts, and to think that a jury of 12 random people conspired to let this guy off is a bit odd. More often than not they'd rather convict than let a potential killer on the streets.
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How does my "self defense style" not honor life?
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If anything a handgun simplifies self defense over a martial artist.
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You've type casted and stereotyped them that because they carry a gun they must be pro violence
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Written by: LurchWritten by: FireTom
The guy on his porch, firing at the crowd actually killed a man, who was sitting in his car. He suffered a fatal shot in his back and the jury let him walk free..
Well now it's hardly fair to leave out important details from the story. They had attacked the man earlier. Came back later, broke into his house while he was sleeping and attacked him with a deadly weapon (yes brass knuckles are a deadly weapon) WHILE HE WAS ASLEEP.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that simply going back inside will not stop the attack, since they have already broken into his house to attack him. They are also obviously armed. The foreman brings up a completely valid point that you do NOT have all the facts, and to think that a jury of 12 random people conspired to let this guy off is a bit odd. More often than not they'd rather convict than let a potential killer on the streets.
Written by: LurchWritten by: Firetom
where have I not quoted my sources? (...) If there is no explicit link, it still would be easy to punch in the names of the people involved and Google does the rest for you.
You didn't quote your source in your first 'scenario.' And why was that? I would venture to guess it was because you didn't want us to know all the facts.
Written by: Lurch
I've said repeatedly that you said guns are evil, why are you yelling at Faith for that? You have said multiple times that guns have a "dark energy," regardless of what you actually meant (since you didn't specify that until recently) most reasonable people would take such a description to equate to "evil." (.........) You're still taking our 'deserved to die' statement a bit too seriously however.
Written by: Lurch
Please stop saying it's a "license to murder." It is no such thing, murder is strictly defined by the laws, so is self defense. Just because self defense may be broader in some areas than others does not make it murder.
Written by: dictionary.com
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
Written by: Lurch
Those images were intended to provoke, and IMHO it was basic flame bait or trolling. You're right, I do question their authenticity, picture number two is obviously not American, and obviously a toy. (that type of toy would actually be illegal in the US) (...) 300,000 children in armed conflicts.. Umm.. not in the US, isn't that what this thread is about?? (...)How many of those child warriors do you see with American made guns?
Written by: Lurch
What issue are we not addressing? How many "law abiding citizens" are killed by legal weapons? Not many.
Written by: Lurch
You just sound like a Greenpeace hippy.
Written by: LurchWritten by: FireTom
(in the eyes of the government, if you are using drugs) you're a criminal and as such you should not be legally own a gun.
That is NOT what the law says. The law says that FELONS cannot own guns. Please understand the difference FireTom. We don't want it both ways, We like it exactly how it is in that context, you are the one pushing to change it.
Written by: Lurch
Whether or not my purchase of a weapon from one of America's gun companies funds the 'arms industry which supplies weapons to conflicts all over the planet' has NOTHING to do with this thread.
Written by: Lurch
Written by: Firetom
I do not say that you can't defend or should sacrifice yourself. But if you feel that you are in need of arms in order to do so -IMHO- you have a moral obligation to change circumstances in such a way that the threat is ending
Some threats are not under ones control. This would be a reason to arm yourself. Most people with a CCW will do everything they can to avoid conflict, have you not been paying attention when I said this repeatedly earlier?
Written by: Lurch
If you truly want to boycott the arm industry you WOULD have to boycott companies like Boeing, and GE. You're instead being selective, please, do some research and find out which types of guns these 300,000 children soldiers are using I would be curious if anything more than a TINY fraction were using modern weapons sold by the companies you listed. I would however be willing to bet the far majority are Soviet or Chinese Ak's
Written by: Lurch
Written by: FireTom
Yes, I would support drug testing for ppl who apply for a gun license and most certainly for ppl applying for a CCWP.
No, I wouldn't support drug testing for renewing drivers licenses - and most definitely not positive results leading to convictions, or any other effect other than revoking the application.
That is leading down a very dark road FireTom. There are very strict rules as to why and when a government agency can drug test you, and for good reason. You cannot randomly be pulled over and tested for alcohol unless there is probably cause. This is illegal (in my state), against the persons rights, and would be thrown out in a heart beat.
Written by: Lurch
Wait what? We're the biggest market? But none of those 300,000 "child soldiers" are in the US. How is amending our gun laws going to change the world? The world already doesn't follow our laws, nor do they have any reason to. They are their own country, and have every right, and responsibility to come up with their own laws.
Written by: LurchWritten by: FireTom
They only had one devastating war on their own soil - and that's a long time ago.
Actually we've had two, we won both How many have you had?
Written by: Lurch
Written by: Firetom
Guns make it MUCH easier to kill someone. MUCH easier than with a sword - would you not agree? And the crusades are far more past than devastating wars on US soil.
Maybe so, but the crusades were estimated to have killed nine million people.
Written by: Lurch
I don't think that US gun laws have near the impact on the world front that you imagine. There are plenty of massacres throughout the world that don't involve guns, or the US in any foreseeable fashion. Look at Rwanda, 50-59,000 Tutsi's were massacred by machete in a month. People's violent nature cause these countless thousands of deaths, not the fact that there are guns present.
Written by: Wikipedia
In Chinese Buddhism, the West represents movement toward the Buddha or enlightenment (see Journey to the West). The ancient Aztecs believed that the West was the realm of the great goddess of water, mist, and maize. In Ancient Egypt, the West was considered to be the portal to the netherworld, and is the cardinal direction regarded in connection with death, though not always with a negative connotation. Ancient Egyptians also believed that the Goddess Amunet was a personification of the West.[1] The Celts believed that beyond the western sea off the edges of all maps lay the Otherworld, or Afterlife.
Moving West in American literature, especially The Great Gatsby, symbolizes gaining freedom. This probably has to do with the colonization of the United States of America and Manifest Destiny.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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If you are carrying a hand gun, then that says to me you are preparing kill someone. Whether that killing is classified as self righteous, murder, manslaughter or whatever. It doesn’t change the fact that you killed someone. You went with the means to kill someone. There is no training and discipline.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Maybe it's the ego that initiates conflict, but I feel it's the id that fuels the need for self defense.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Maybe it's the ego that initiates conflict, but I feel it's the id that fuels the need for self defense.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: Stout
Asking America to show some leadership away from guns and violence ? Great idea, but given the lack of respect America currently receives on the world stage, do you thing anyone would follow that leadership or merely think that America's gone all soft and weak ?
I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
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In the early 1950s, when the U.S. arms industry commenced its weapons-building spree that lasts to this day, and when Congress began an equally long-lasting buying spree to pay for it, Einstein argued that "you cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war. The very prevention of war requires more faith, courage and resolution than are needed to prepare for war."
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Men should continue to fight," he said, "but they should fight for things worthwhile, not for imaginary geographical lines, racial prejudices and private greed draped in the colors of patriotism. Their arms should be weapons of the spirit, not shrapnel and tanks." Albert Einstein
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Asking America to show some leadership away from guns and violence ? Great idea, but given the lack of respect America currently receives on the world stage, do you thing anyone would follow that leadership or merely think that America's gone all soft and weak ?
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If it is between killing a criminal, or watching them take the life of an innocent child, which would you prefer? I know in my heart what my preference would be, and I would be willing to lay down my life if I could ensure that child lives. Would you be able to live with yourself if they didn't?
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Stone, your laying down your life to ensure the survival of an innocent child, sidesteps Lurch's question. He's presented an either/or scenario, and you've added another element. (assuming that your sacrifice WOULD prevent the described action) This is a classic example of using deadly force to save a life.
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Stone, if everyone subscribed to following the path of loving kindness, true, there would be no NEED for weapons and self defense. But not everybody does and unfortunately it’s those that don't follow that path that forces those of us that do follow that path to prepare ourselves to defend against their aggressions.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by: StoneWritten by: ]Asking America to show some leadership away from guns and violence ? Great idea, but given the lack of respect America currently receives on the world stage, do you thing anyone would follow that leadership or merely think that America's gone all soft and weak ?[/quote
If America was to show some leadership away from guns and violence, then I think the “shock” of real leadership would be enough to convince everyone to follow them.
I disagree. Every time America has tried to "higher road," our enemies have exploited that and moved in for the kill. Look at the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Look at 9-11. During World War II we tried to stay out of it and negotiate for peace rather than go to war, but Japan got frustrated with our efforts and felt we needed a wake-up call. We were threatened so many times before 9-11 and we chose to still stay out of the conflict as best as we could, and then the Twin Towers and Pentagon were essentially bombed. When America looks "weak," our enemies try to take us down. I don't think disarming our country is going to set a positive example for the world, I think it would only allow our enemies to see our weak spots and make further attacks.
And I'm not ignoring the other comments, I just have had a rough day and am not up for an intellectual debate right this moment. I just read through to catch up and that particular comment caught my eye. I'll be back to discuss when I'm emotionally and mentally up for it.I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
**giggles**
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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Stout, I hear you... What you can do (in that scenario) is to call the cops and file a complaint, get a court order that rules they can't approach you within 50 metres radius. This way they are registered with the police (and know it) and usually keep off. You don't need 24/7 protection. This was about a purse, they accused the guy of having stolen from a party.
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Lurch, you carry a gun because you are afraid. And as you say, scared of the criminal who may try to take my life.
This is all speculation. [made up]It's perfectly reasonable to assume that simply going back inside will not stop the attack, since they have already broken into his house to attack him……..[made up ]. They are also obviously armed.[made up] The foreman brings up a completely valid point [opinion] that you do NOT have all the facts, [made up] and to think that a jury of 12 random people conspired to let this guy off is a bit odd.[opinion, made up]More often than not they'd rather convict than let a potential killer on the streets[opinion, made up]
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Lurch you said it "You're right, I am prepared to kill." That means you intend to kill. You wouldn’t have a gun otherwise. If you believed in good will, you wouldn’t have a gun, and would not be prepared to kill.
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If it is between killing a criminal, or watching them take the life of an innocent child, which would you prefer? I know in my heart what my preference would be, and I would be willing to lay down my life if I could ensure that child lives. Would you be able to live with yourself if they didn't? This is fantasy, paranoia.
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Men should continue to fight," he said, "but they should fight for things worthwhile, not for imaginary geographical lines, racial prejudices and private greed draped in the colors of patriotism. Their arms should be weapons of the spirit, not shrapnel and tanks." Albert Einstein
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As you say, it’s a big assumption that a sacrifice would save a life. In a situation like Virginian Tech, for example. I’d say people rushing in with guns would have probably increased the death toll. But it’s a hypothetical situation. I’d say if a person was really committed to laying down their life to ensure the survival of an innocent child, I'd say consider donating your kidneys to the local Children’s Hospital. And stop giving me fantasy.
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Stout, I’m saying lead by example. Take responsibility, stop blaming the criminals.
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
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