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Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:I think it's hilarious people still believe the myths about the rash of crazy violence during and after hurricane katrina. Didn't those stories sound a little ridicilous to you when you heard them? Probably because they are entirely crap.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html?page=7
br>
Quote:NARCHY DIDN'T TAKE OVER
MYTH: "They have people ... been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people."--New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin, The Oprah Winfrey Show, Sept. 6, 2005

REALITY: Both public officials and the press passed along lurid tales of post-Katrina mayhem: shootouts in the Superdome, bodies stacked in a convention center freezer, snipers firing on rescue helicopters. And those accounts appear to have affected rescue efforts as first responders shifted resources from saving lives to protecting rescuers. In reality, although looting and other property crimes were widespread after the flooding on Monday, Aug. 29, almost none of the stories about violent crime turned out to be true. Col. Thomas Beron, the National Guard commander of Task Force Orleans, arrived at the Superdome on Aug. 29 and took command of 400 soldiers. He told PM that when the Dome's main power failed around 5 am, "it became a hot, humid, miserable place. There was some pushing, people were irritable. There was one attempted rape that the New Orleans police stopped."

The only confirmed account of a weapon discharge occurred when Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt was jumped by an assailant and, during the chaotic arrest, accidently shot himself in the leg with his own M-16.

When the Superdome was finally cleared, six bodies were found--not the 200 speculated. Four people had died of natural causes; one was ruled a suicide, and another a drug overdose. Of the four bodies recovered at the convention center, three had died of natural causes; the fourth had sustained stab wounds.

Anarchy in the streets? "The vast majority of people [looting] were taking food and water to live," says Capt. Marlon Defillo, the New Orleans Police Department's commander of public affairs. "There were no killings, not one murder." As for sniper fire: No bullet holes were found in the fuselage of any rescue helicopter.

NEXT TIME: "Rumors are fueled by a shortage of truth," says Ted Steinberg, author of Acts of God: The Unnatural History of Natural Disasters in America. And truth was the first casualty of the information breakdown that followed the storm. Hardening communications lines (see page 3) will benefit not just first responders, but also the media. Government officials have a vital role in informing the public. Ensuring the flow of accurate information should be part of disaster planning at local, state and federal levels.


The less people know the more they believe

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:railspinner, I watched those wild stories live on PBS. Mate, it was eerie, just like the Twin Towers. And hey, you going to turn around and tell me that didn't happen either.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:Stone, I am sure that when all of your community, as well as the communities miles away from yours are without food and have been ravaged by disaster, everyone would make peace and love in the street. When your family is starving to death, injured, without medical care you would never do anything animalistic. I hope you are brought to your bestial knees from your high throne someday soon, and judging by the way your economy and the rest of the worlds is heading, you will. You think you are so far from kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, a narcissistic king. You are so much better than the rest of the world Stone, maybe someday we can all be as delusional as you.

If and when something like that happens to your community, you will do whatever it takes to survive, or you will be killed; bu someone smarter and more prepared, or more willing to survive.


Human

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Lev


Firedance Philosopher
Location: Vancouver BC Canada

Total posts: 79
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGangerStone, I am sure that when all of your community, as well as the communities miles away from yours are without food and have been ravaged by disaster, everyone would make peace and love in the street. When your family is starving to death, injured, without medical care you would never do anything animalistic. I hope you are brought to your bestial knees from your high throne someday soon, and judging by the way your economy and the rest of the worlds is heading, you will. You think you are so far from kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, a narcissistic king. You are so much better than the rest of the world Stone, maybe someday we can all be as delusional as you.

If and when something like that happens to your community, you will do whatever it takes to survive, or you will be killed; bu someone smarter and more prepared, or more willing to survive.
We are very privileged compared to the rest of the world, has something to do with online communities all containing the top richest 10% of the world AKA owning a computer and renting internet.

It's true that a lot of places have it rough, and that people take their situation for granted for one that could be much much worse, but America having a huge backbone from it's *cough* early textile farming along with it's supply of oil for easy energy has it anything but "rough" as you describe.

Honestly I do not understand your point in the way that it is relevant at all, but I do understand it as an isolated red herring.

Please clarify? =]

EDITED_BY: Lev (1233615080)


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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:Stone compareing rumours perpetuated by the news for a short time of bad reporting to 9/11 is pretty ridicilous. You didn't watch anyone being shot raped or murdered on PBS, you saw flakey reporters passing on ridicilous rumours they heard. At the time all that crap was spreading through the news, no reporters were even in the position to verify any of the nonsense they were reporting. I know people who were in new orleans for hurricane katrina. I think it's funny you think it's inplausable that american news networks would report ill founded rumours during a media circus. maybe being from australia you aren't exposed to the gong show of american news unless it's something as big as hurricane katrina.

The less people know the more they believe

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Lev


Firedance Philosopher
Location: Vancouver BC Canada

Total posts: 79
Posted:I agree RS, just to be clear I didn't mean to imply that the dysfunction between media and public is limited to just the example I mentioned.
EDITED_BY: Lev (1233616226)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi railspinner, now read the following very carefully. I watched the events of Katrina LIVE. I watched cops up to their knees in water chasing people down laneways, shooting and calling for more ammo!

What you in denial too?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGangerStone, I am sure that when all of your community, as well as the communities miles away from yours are without food and have been ravaged by disaster, everyone would make peace and love in the street. When your family is starving to death, injured, without medical care you would never do anything animalistic. I hope you are brought to your bestial knees from your high throne someday soon, and judging by the way your economy and the rest of the worlds is heading, you will. You think you are so far from kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, a narcissistic king. You are so much better than the rest of the world Stone, maybe someday we can all be as delusional as you.

If and when something like that happens to your community, you will do whatever it takes to survive, or you will be killed; bu someone smarter and more prepared, or more willing to survive.

mate - that might be the case in the US, but here in Australia where we deal with floods, storms, cyclones, bushfires and other natural disasters on a very regular basis, it's at that times that the real community shines through.

Schools become dorms, local halls fill up, people travel from all over the country to come and lend a hand, make sandwhiches and tea, man communication stations, and help out with whatever they can. Blankets get donated, people are taken in, the government helps out quick smart, our paid and volunteer emergency services spring into life (a lot of employers have emergency leave provisions to allow people to help out).

it's the australian way to lend a hand to your mates, and to have some fun doing it

ubbrollsmile

I reckon that before aussies are shooting eachother for food, we will be having a bloody big barbie sharing our remaining lot, sharing stories of survival and recipies for brewing beer in a changing society, and actually helping eachother out.

and stone - your port arthur comment was spot on - the commnity made a decision to lower the number of guns in the community because we decided arming the insane was not the way to go

smile

EDITED_BY: Ade (1233627766)


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Oi !!! I didn't know about the PM katrina myth article, good on them !

So if people weren't shooting each other in a disaster scenario, then why the need for "defensive" weapons ?

Or maybe you want to form a vigilante/warparty/militia/death squad/citizens defense co-op like these guys did and do a little preventative maintenance. The Nation....seven page article and bonus...... Youtube video to go along with it.

Or maybe you believe that katrina was a Bush directed false flag op that tried to blame the Japanese Yakuza for using a Russian made weather control device as revenge for the bombing of Hiroshima.... story here.

I'll stick with my stockpile of food and water and share it freely with my fellow citizens should they find themselves in need rather than prepare to draw a bead on them should they look at me funny.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Ade, I like the idea of the bloody big barbie wink

I think another good example is how the Thai people were able to work together and rebuild after the tsunami.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:and another good example is what's happening right now in our country - the worst bushfires in our history, lots of people dead and homeless

what's the australian reaction?
everyone wants to help - to the point where some of our charitable organisations are saying 'no more donations we have enough stuff'.

People are sending things to the area, taking time off work to help fight the fires, people are milling around the local community hall listening for news and sharing their stories, food, clothes, toys etc...and having a bbq to feed everyone

to those in victoria, my thoughts are with you


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Ade, I heard NSW was in for it Sunday. With over 130 people dead its the worst fires on record in Victoria.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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afghan_bingo
SILVER Member since Sep 2005

afghan_bingo

member
Location: Calgary, Canada

Total posts: 116
Posted:a few years (2000- ish) ago i found out about a town in the american south whos last recorded crime was a lawn spinkler being vandalised in 1996 (old figure, may have changed since) why the phenominally low crime rate?? not because guns are illegal, quite the opposite in fact, every town member over the age of 18 owns at least one gun. another larger example would be switzerland which per capita has both the lowest crime rate in the world and the highest gun ownership in the world. guns are only a problem when in the hands of the stupid. sadly in america this does apply to a fair chunk of the population, but hey its not nice to pink on the handicapped.

we were somewhere near barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:You've implied that the reason the town in the american souths low crime rate is attributed to the gun ownership levels.

My questions are these and you may or may not have the answers...

What're the reasons for gun ownership?

What is the actual spread of people living here? How many people of each race?

I'm not saying that having people other than whites creates crime, but a lot of crimes are done out of hatred, racial differences can create otherness and it all builds up in this way...

Other questions are what kind of police force is in effect there, how efficient are they at filling out paperwork?

Whats the population of this town?
The South doesnt have the best record of tolerance, either, hey?


hug

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Lev


Firedance Philosopher
Location: Vancouver BC Canada

Total posts: 79
Posted:High gun ownership rate? Where have I heard that before...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine,_Colorado

EDITED_BY: Lev (1234210214)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:afghan_bingo,

If the old adage that an armed population is a polite population were true, then America would have the lowest crime/murder rates in the world. As America has one of the highest crime/murder rates, then you would have to say thats another NRA myth is busted!


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:You guys are hilarious

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:canada has just as many guns per capita as the united states (albeit most of them are long arms) and our crime rate is dramaticly lower then the US, per capita.

i don't think gun ownership really does a whole lot to stop crime one way or the other. Most crimes are comitted with illegal handguns. Their is a rise of hand gun crime in canada and hand guns are pretty much illegal here. If a government can't stop millions of pounds of drugs comeing into a country, it's laughable to expect them to be able to stop hand guns.

Most people who are pro gun bans convoniently don't pay any attention to the statistics in canada.


The less people know the more they believe

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:They're also naive enough to believe anything told to them that remotely aligns with their point of view

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:railspinner, I agree that gun ownership does not do a whole lot to stop crime. However, as the good Doctor Kellermann has pointed out in his ground breaking research. The risk of gun homicide actually increases when people keep a gun in the home. Which they often do in the mistaken belief it will protect them.

So thats another NRA myth busted.

Originally Posted By: LurchThey're also naive enough to believe anything told to them that remotely aligns with their point of view

Lurch I agree, and thats two in NRA myths busted in one day, not bad hey grin


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Again, I stand by you guys being hilarious. I've never seen someone fall into the fear mongering as hard as you guys. There is no point in arguing if you wont even acknowledge the possibility of an alternative.

I'm not going to comment on doppelGangers posts, cause quite frankly I disagree with him on a lot of points. But he as conviction, and at least he thinks he's doing right.

It makes me sad to see that there are new people in this thread, and know that they probably haven't taken the time to read the full extent of whats been posted here. They may think differently if they have.

I will ask one question that I've asked before many times, but I don't recall you ever even attempting to answer.

If gun control is the answer, why is gun crime (and violent crime in general) so much more prevalent in areas with less access to guns, and lower in areas where guns are more available?


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: LurchAgain, I stand by you guys being hilarious. I've never seen someone fall into the fear mongering as hard as you guys. There is no point in arguing if you wont even acknowledge the possibility of an alternative.

Lurch, fear mongering perhaps, but we are not living in fear. At least I can leave my home with out having to carry an arsenal of guns with me to feel normal.

Originally Posted By: LurchI'm not going to comment on doppelGangers posts, cause quite frankly I disagree with him on a lot of points. But he as conviction, and at least he thinks he's doing right.

Lurch you should say if you disagree with doppelganger, because your arguments are much the same. You both need guns because you have this paranoid fear, you relate owning guns to masculinity, then there is the fear for invasion and so on. Basically all the same old standard NRA myths.

Im sure Hitler also thought he was doing the right thing. Perhaps you guys need to consider that running around the country with semi automatic assault weapons is a bit antisocial.

Originally Posted By: LurchI will ask one question that I've asked before many times, but I don't recall you ever even attempting to answer.

If gun control is the answer, why is gun crime (and violent crime in general) so much more prevalent in areas with less access to guns, and lower in areas where guns are more available?

Im not sure what you are referring to here. If you are referring to the introduction of right to carry laws, then as said previously, I think that any drop in the violence stats was due to the war on drugs. And while there might have been a tiny dip in the graph, I think gun violence will escalate to unknown proportions in America in coming years. As there seems to be an huge increase in gun sales since the American financial crisis.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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MRC
SILVER Member since Jun 2008

MRC

Funky Blessings Daily
Location: , USA

Total posts: 215
Posted:I've been avoiding this thread because I wanted to avoid the combative frame of mind it put me in, this is largely why I had left other forums in the past. However, I saw something that I just don't think should be allowed to go unchallenged.

Originally Posted By: Stone
Im not sure what you are referring to here. If you are referring to the introduction of right to carry laws, then as said previously, I think that any drop in the violence stats was due to the war on drugs. And while there might have been a tiny dip in the graph, I think gun violence will escalate to unknown proportions in America in coming years. As there seems to be an huge increase in gun sales since the American financial crisis.


The war on drugs has created more violence than it has stopped. Historically, when the prohibition on alcohol occurred there was a MASSIVE spike in crime. The power of the infamous "mob" came to being in its ability to bring out the booze. There is no constitutional basis to disallow someone the right to do with their body as they will, and while that is a separate argument is an essential aspect of our government's drug policies. If drugs were not criminalized in the fashion that they are gangs would not need to be distributing them in the first place. The aggression of the federal government has also made the drug activity more defensive. They are more paranoid and prone to violence as a matter of protection.

If the war on drugs caused ANY decrease in violence that would be in stark contrast to previous precedents in which prohibition, and it's enforcement, caused MORE violence and crime.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: MRC... If the war on drugs caused ANY decrease in violence that would be in stark contrast to previous precedents in which prohibition, and it's enforcement, caused MORE violence and crime.

MRC, thats just speculation.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneLurch, fear mongering perhaps, but we are not living in fear. At least I can leave my home with out having to carry an arsenal of guns with me to feel normal.

Really? You're not living in fear? It's pretty amusing that you claim I am so scared, yet your blind to your own blatant paranoia. You even admit to fear mongering! Using someones fear to leverage them into your beliefs. You most certainly have an irrational fear of guns, and people who own them. You may actually have a reason to fear violent criminals owning guns, but why are you so scared about law abiding citizens?

Originally Posted By: StoneLurch you should say if you disagree with doppelganger, because your arguments are much the same. You both need guns because you have this paranoid fear, you relate owning guns to masculinity, then there is the fear for invasion and so on. Basically all the same old standard NRA myths.

Im sure Hitler also thought he was doing the right thing. Perhaps you guys need to consider that running around the country with semi automatic assault weapons is a bit antisocial.

Actually our arguments are very different, but you seem to be so caught up in your 'guns are bad' mentality that any pro gun argument sounds the same to you. *What* exactly do you seem to think I'm so paranoid about? I'm not afraid of being unarmed, or being attacked by a criminal. I have a very real, and very rational understanding of its possibility though. I don't fear invasion, nor do I buy into conspiracy theories.

Hitler did think he was doing the right thing, and part of why he was so successful within Germany early on was his gun policies. Germany was hardly a 'guns for everyone!' state.

Originally Posted By: StoneIm not sure what you are referring to here. If you are referring to the introduction of right to carry laws, then as said previously, I think that any drop in the violence stats was due to the war on drugs. And while there might have been a tiny dip in the graph, I think gun violence will escalate to unknown proportions in America in coming years. As there seems to be an huge increase in gun sales since the American financial crisis.

Actually I wasn't talking about right to carry laws at all. I was talking about why cities like Washington DC, NYC, Boston, Chicago, Detroit.. all have strict carry laws, and are some of the most violent in the country. DC has all but banned private ownership of guns and confiscated thousands, yet they're still responsible for 80% of it's murders. As I've said a million times, CRIMINALS owning guns is the problem, not law abiding citizens.

In case you haven't noticed, violent crime has by in large been dropping in the US (as opposed to elsewhere) and gun ownership and right to carry laws have been loosening, because *some* people are beginning to see how useless they are.

As for the recent increase in gun sales, it has nothing to do with the financial situation of the country, and everything to do with the new president.


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Stone
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Posted:Originally Posted By: Lurch *What* exactly do you seem to think I'm so paranoid about? I'm not afraid of being unarmed, or being attacked by a criminal. I have a very real, and very rational understanding of its possibility though. I don't fear invasion, nor do I buy into conspiracy theories.

Um Lurch, thats a big turn around. I thought the whole reason for carrying a gun was fear of being attacked. So, if you are not afraid of getting attacked then you dont need to carry a gun, simple! Ditto for the turn around on the invasion conspiracy. Like are you now agreeing that the invasion conspiracy was just a B grade fantasy (movie) as I suggested in an earlier post?

Originally Posted By: LurchActually I wasn't talking about right to carry laws at all. I was talking about why cities like Washington DC, NYC, Boston, Chicago, Detroit.. all have strict carry laws, and are some of the most violent in the country. DC has all but banned private ownership of guns and confiscated thousands, yet they're still responsible for 80% of it's murders. As I've said a million times, CRIMINALS owning guns is the problem, not law abiding citizens.

It helps if you say what you mean, rather than leaving it for speculation.

Owning a gun is a criminal offence in many places, and rightly so. As you have pointed out, owning and having access to guns only leads to violence and murder. You really need to have an integrated or a national approach to the problem of guns in the community; otherwise people just get their guns from neighbouring regions.

Originally Posted By: LurchIn case you haven't noticed, violent crime has by in large been dropping in the US (as opposed to elsewhere) and gun ownership and right to carry laws have been loosening, because *some* people are beginning to see how useless they are.

No, I hadnt noticed, because the last time I looked violent crime had started to increase again in 2005.

The loosing of the right to carry laws is a direct result of the powerful NRA lobby, and has more to do with increasing gun sales than anything else.

Originally Posted By: LurchAs for the recent increase in gun sales, it has nothing to do with the financial situation of the country, and everything to do with the new president.

Im temped to speculate on what the NRA has dreamed up this time, but how has the election of a new President increased gun sales?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
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Posted:Originally Posted By: LurchAs for the recent increase in gun sales, it has nothing to do with the financial situation of the country, and everything to do with the new president.
Originally Posted By: StoneIm temped to speculate on what the NRA has dreamed up this time, but how has the election of a new President increased gun sales?

Ok Lurch, curiosity got the better of me so I looked it up.

So, basically the NRA started a fear mongering campaign to increase membership and to sell more guns by saying Obama would introduce a huge new tax on guns and ammo, re-introduce the Clinton administration imposed a ban on several types of military-style semi-automatic rifles and high-capacity magazines, introduce background checks for buyers at gun shows, and other "common-sense measures."

Gun sales surge after Obama's election

Basically the NRA started a membership campaign on top of fear mongering campaign to sell more guns by saying that Obama would support a "huge new tax on my guns and ammo," referencing a 1999 article in a Chicago newspaper saying the then-Illinois state senator promoted a plan to increase federal taxes by 500 percent on the sales of firearms and ammunition.

And hey, it worked too.

According to FBI figures for the week of November 3 to 9, the bureau received more than 374,000 requests for background checks on gun purchasers -- a nearly 49 percent increase over the same period in 2007. Conatser said his store, Virginia Arms Company, has run out of some models -- such as the AR-15 rifle, the civilian version of the military's M-16 -- and is running low on others. Such assault weapons are among the firearms that gun dealers and customers say they fear Obama will hit with new restrictions, or even take off the market.

And New Hampshire gun owner Lloyd Clement said, "I think there's going to be an attack to some degree on the gun owners." (I wonder if the pun was intended). The Clinton administration imposed a ban on several types of military-style semi-automatic rifles and high-capacity magazines in 1994, but that ban was allowed to lapse in 2004. Obama has proposed restoring the ban, requiring background checks for buyers at gun shows, and other "common-sense measures."

And hey, lucky you brought that Glock early, because Demand is so high on firearms like Glock handguns, they are on back order, said Corbett. I have to get my name on a list and then it's a first-come, first-serve basis.

Here is another take.

Gun sales shoot way up Love these puns.

Doug Pennington, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, called the sales increase "second prize" for the NRA, after that group campaigned hard against Obama in the election. "This is the consolation for the National Rifle Association after they spent about 30 times the money to defeat Barack Obama than they did to defeat Al Gore," Pennington said. "A lot of that (increased gun sales) can be attributed to folks who were really scared by what the NRA was peddling. The whole country just needs to settle down."

The NRA sees it differently. The increase in gun sales is "because gun owners distrust President-elect Obama and his commitment to protect the Second Amendment," said Rachel Parsons, a spokeswoman for the organization. "He ran as a pro-gun candidate; however, his voting record is starkly different from his campaign rhetoric."

Parsons said the NRA would welcome any new members it gets as a result of the current gun-buying spree. Though the organization isn't explicitly encouraging people to buy guns, she said, people "certainly have a right to be concerned" that laws will get stricter under a new administration.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
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Posted:Lurch, what gets me about the NRA is here we have grown men behaving like children because they fear that the best President since JFK might take away their toys. In this case, semi automatic assault weapons, and stop them from playing with big magazines and armour piercing ammunition. Not only that, they spent millions and millions of dollars in an effort to stop Obama getting elected. Why?

Why, do these grown men, so-called hunters, need armour piercing ammunition and semi automatic assault weapons? Makes you wonder what its all about. I mean this is pretty antisocial hardware, and armalite rifles are not much good for hunting either. The armalite being designed for rapid fire rather than marksmanship. Then bingo! Obviously, these guys have not got over being defeated by the Vietnamese in the Vietnam. And this whole camo gear, semi automatic assault weapons, big magazines and armour piercing ammunition is just some form of weird compensation.

Luck there are now adults at the Whitehouse, because the real problem is the NRA has done nothing to reduce the possibility of another Columbine High School massacre. As we all know the NRA lobby has been successful and gun laws have slackened. Semi automatic assault weapons are legal and much easier to obtain than in 1999, and there are still the same loop holes in the gun show laws.

Gunguys statistics bear the ugly truth. "In the years since the ban expired, more assault weapons have been used to kill and maim in South Florida and the nation. One in five homicides in Miami in 2007 was committed with an assault weapon. In 2004, they were involved in only 4 percent of homicides.

Some of these unnecssary and tragic homicides include:An AK-47 sprays a crowd of 50 people during a craps game outside an apartment complex in Liberty City in January. Nine people are shot. Two teenagers 16 and 18 are dead.

Another assault weapon unloads on a group of partygoers in Brownsville celebrating a high-school graduation. Six people are hurt. An 18-year-old is dead.

A modified assault rifle injures three officers in Cutler Bay and kills Miami-Dade Officer Jose Somohano, a father of two, in 2007.

An assault rifle sprays 25 bullets at a car outside a home in North Miami Beach in December 2006. A 17-year-old girl inside the car is killed."

Nope guns dont kill people!


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:So come on guys, how come armour piercing ammo is so necessary for hunting that is became an election issue for the good citizens of America???

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:Oh get it, you're an Obama lover, it all makes so much more sense now.

Human

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