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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Lurch, I can see why some people would like to have guns in an ideal world. They would probably favour the skill and fun side of guns. There would be none of this having to carry guns for protection, vigilantism because there would be no crime. People wouldnt use guns to force their opinions on others. I think one reason preventing the evolution to an ideal world is that many people, Americans in particular, see guns as easy solution to their problems.

I think a persons upbringing has a huge impact on the expression of a persons genetic predispositions towards criminal tendencies.


Stout, Im not suggesting the criminal is not guilty. Sure, most of the responsibility for the crime belongs with the criminal. Perhaps, Im being a bleeding heart when I say I dont think many people choose to become criminals. The reality is its a pretty crappy existence. Im thinking owing a part of that helps raise peoples awareness of levels of security needs.

 Written by:

Less trust, more care is a very good motto, but sometimes I find myself appreciating what i perceive to be an atmosphere of trust, and sometimes, against my better judgment, indulge in that trust with the hope I'm not underestimating the general decency of the human race. Other times I'm downright paranoid.



Actually, I do think its all about trust. As a race we dont communicate very well with people outside our family/friends/group. We see outsiders as enemies. A lot of the time we look for threats that dont really exist, even make up stories; its part of our survival programming.

Learning to trust is important because it helps us break down the barriers, like race barriers for example. I think knowing who to trust begins with having a clear mind. A really good way to separate the reality from the stories is to practice mindfulness of breathing meditation. You basically concentrate breathing while counting breaths. When the mind wanders you just come back to experiencing the physical sensations of the breath, and begin counting again.

Stout, it sounds good this that's it's up to the individual, not the government, to ensure their personal safety but the end result is anarchy, not democracy. Everything goes along fine until there is pressure on the system, and it all falls to pieces. A recent example is the outbreak of anarchy in New Orleans following hurricane Katrina.

faith, you have a point about the leaders. Winged nuts. lol. I havent heard that one for ages. You have had some adventures, so it's good to hear you live in a nice area. It would have taken a lot of effort. I live in a relatively safe suburb. The main risk is loosing your cds or other valuables if you leave your car unlocked at night.

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Alright, but suppose we lived in that ideal world. Gun crimes were eliminated, and even accidents virtually eliminated by better education and owner safety. There is no logical reason to fear a gun at that point. If I'm not going to commit a crime with my gun, and I'm not going to have an accident with it, why do you have a problem with me having it?

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, I think the question is how do we reach the ideal world? Its certainly not by following the path mapped out by the NRA leaders. Their agenda is filled with the hate.


Have to go, back later.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Well now I just think you're avoiding the question I asked wink

What is the path you see being mapped out by NRA leaders? You can point to any large organization and find the extremists, just like at PETA.

A completely agree with what you said about trust and communication. I will hopefully never be in a situation that I can't talk myself out of. I don't want to be in a position where violence is the only option. That said, I am a realist however, and I know that no matter how much I want to avoid violence, there is always the possibility that isn't an option.

 Written by:

Stout, it sounds good this that's it's up to the individual, not the government, to ensure their personal safety but the end result is anarchy, not democracy. Everything goes along fine until there is pressure on the system, and it all falls to pieces. A recent example is the outbreak of anarchy in New Orleans following hurricane Katrina.



I have to disagree there however. It's when everyone is dependant on a faulty system that it crumbles under stress. A hurricane hit New England in 1938, went over Long Island, destroyed thousands of homes and killed hundreds of people. The population didn't just sit on their butts and wait for the government to save them. They started to clean, repair, and rebuild as soon as the storm was over. Think about it, if the system is 'take care of yourself as much as possible, we'll send aid but it's up to you' then if you fail, its your fault. If the system is 'we'll take care of all of you' and the system fails, everyone is screwed, not just the individual.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, in answer to your questions:

I dont have a problem with guns in an ideal world where all crime is eliminated. Guns have a certain attraction, and I can understand guns for fun and marksmanship. No problem.

 Written by:

What is the path you see being mapped out by NRA leaders? You can point to any large organization and find the extremists, just like at PETA.



Here's what they say: NRA Leaders Speak Out. Pointing to large organizations and calling them extremists, just like at PETA, doesnt somehow make them any more enlightened.

 Written by:

It's when everyone is dependant on a faulty system that it crumbles under stress. A hurricane hit New England in 1938, went over Long Island, destroyed thousands of homes and killed hundreds of people. The population didn't just sit on their butts and wait for the government to save them. They started to clean, repair, and rebuild as soon as the storm was over. Think about it, if the system is 'take care of yourself as much as possible, we'll send aid but it's up to you' then if you fail, its your fault. If the system is 'we'll take care of all of you' and the system fails, everyone is screwed, not just the individual.



Ok its 2007, and the system is faulty and not working fine, but I dont get this The population didn't just sit on their butts and wait for the government to save them. Like, Hello! Why do you even question aiding distressed Americans in an emergency? The question, that still shadows America, is why didnt the good citizens of American just pitch in and help?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Yes, Lurch - *obviously* you choose to ignore studies and statistics, done by credible researchers and institutions in favour of hand drawn graphs by some gun fanatics. I'm still waiting for a (scientific) proof that guns do more good than bad... Show a representative study done by a credited institution (undertaken in this century).... shrug

 Written by: Lurch

I proposed better education and owner safety requirements, which could potentially drastically reduce accidental deaths, but that isn't good enough for you I guess.



Did you? umm Pls. specify "better education" and "better owner safety requirements"? Isn't that getting closer to a mandatory (gun)license and (further) restrictions?

rolleyes I didn't call *you* a liar. You might be a "wanna-believer"... as you fall for unfounded propaganda that suits your POV. There is a motif behind that.

 Written by: Lurch

Yes I know about genetic predispositions towards criminal tendencies. What makes a criminal is not purely genetic (in many cases). (...) There is always an alternative.



Yes there is and it's societies responsibility to provide equal opportunities, so everyone has the same scale of alternatives to choose from. It's the individuals responsibility to make t/his claim and to work towards a society in which opportunities are equal.

 Written by: Lurch

There are about 107 million cars in the US, give or take obviously and nearly 200 million guns. An estimated 3.4 million injuries and 40,000+ deaths by car accident. Maybe 30,000 deaths by guns.



... and what about the benefits of guns vs. cars? umm

 Written by: Lurch

2/3 gun deaths are attributed to Suicide or Drugs, both crimes, and both preventable through means other than gun control. Both SHOULD be confronted by examining the CAUSE of the problem, not the TOOL, used for the end result.



Suicide is a crime? confused

- But are you saying that drug offences are crimes... ? Wouldn't that discredit drug abusers from owning guns? umm

- Isn't the possession of guns for self defense and safety simply the attempt to cure the symptoms (theft and violence) rather than to tackle the cause (an unequal society).

 Written by: Lurch

A better comparison would be choosing not to wear a helmet on a motorcycle.



ubblol You soo much should get yourself to Asia and India... No seatbelts, no helmets wink

 Written by: Lurch

Not true, I challenge you to come up with an actual study showing that legal CCW carriers are more of a threat to society than a benefit. We are discussing LEGAL carry here after all, not criminals.



You challenge me (back)? rolleyes

In this thread studies have been presented that the presence of guns (in homes/ communities) have negative effects on family members and result in gun accidents... Now I'm still waiting for your study that prooves more crimes to be prevented than committed.

 Written by: Lurch

Could you show me where I said that I agreed with shooting someone over material possessions? (...) I don't keep a loaded firearm in my house to fight off a hostage situation.



I trust you that you are doing anything to prevent accidents and abuse. I sincerely hope you succeed.

So you condemn killing over material possessions? And only approve killing in self defense?

- Why would you then need to keep more than one firearm to accomplish this? Why would you then oppose regulation on numbers of guns/ person?

You're not trying to "fight off a hostage situation"... You confused me... shrug

This entire thread is started on ppl shooting other ppl over material possessions and in situations that are/ were not classified "life threatening" - without punishment. It's about the simplicity in which ppl can obtain firearms...

 Written by: Lurch

I fully admit that if I were to keep property on my front lawn it is more likely to be stolen. Just because it was unprotected and on my front lawn does not make it any less of a crime to take it however, and the criminal is no less guilty because it was "easy" to steal.



There is a big difference.

Remember the days when ppl didn't have to lock their doors?

 Written by: Lurch

Lol, thats quite possible, however that's not the reason I don't keep it locked. I would rather have someone open the door to steal the car or things in it, than have them slash the top to get inside.



So in your Jeep you only keep things you can let go of?!

Why are we talking about theft anyways, if we all oppose killing over material possessions?

We had these scenarios before... no need to repeat them. Someone breaks into the house, I call the cops and stay in my bedroom, period. Someone demands my wallet, I hand it over. Someone attacks me with a knife, I try to run a.f.a.p. Ahead of this situation, I try to walk away from potential conflict and train myself in unarmed self defense.

Simple.

 Written by: Lurch

The students in Columbine got their weapons illegally. Granted it was from a dealer, but nonetheless they were sold to them illegally. More regulations won't stop that. The NRA is not just about making people safer, it's about the sport, and the hobby, or whatever you want to call it. It's about our rights, and while you may see it as barbaric or primitive to insist on keeping our rights, even at the potential cost of innocent blood, including our own, we do not.



confused on the last part... It's about our rights, and while you may see it as barbaric or primitive to insist on keeping our rights, even at the potential cost of innocent blood, including our own, we do not.

So the only logical solution to the problem ("they were sold to them illegally + More regulations won't stop that. ") is a ban. shrug I can't understand that you fight the right for self-determination (like wearing a seatbelt/ helmet or not) but defend the right to cause harm and to support a corrupt and lethal industry...

(sigh)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:We've gone over the education and training parts FireTom, I guess you forgot.

 Written by:

Yes there is and it's societies responsibility to provide equal opportunities, so everyone has the same scale of alternatives to choose from. It's the individuals responsibility to make t/his claim and to work towards a society in which opportunities are equal.



No, it's not. It's societies responsibility to ensure that you're not oppressed, that doesn't mean they must give everyone equal opportunity. You have to earn some things, when people are just handed opportunity through their whole life they take it for granted, and can't function as an individual, they mooch off the system (a large part of the Katrina hassle)

 Written by:

Suicide is a crime?

- But are you saying that drug offenses are crimes... ? Wouldn't that discredit drug abusers from owning guns?




Yes, suicide is illegal (in 49 of the 50 states, mine is special, but that is a different discussion).

Drug offenses are crimes, the issue we had earlier was whether or not recreational drug users should be allowed to own a firearm. There is a big difference between recreational pot smokers, and felony drug dealers getting into shootouts over deals gone bad.

 Written by:

- Isn't the possession of guns for self defense and safety simply the attempt to cure the symptoms (theft and violence) rather than to tackle the cause (an unequal society).



No, people with guns for self defense are not trying to 'cure the symptoms' they are trying to keep themselves alive. It's a completely separate issue. Or have you forgotten once again that I don't condone vigilantism.

 Written by:

So you condemn killing over material possessions? And only approve killing in self defense?

- Why would you then need to keep more than one firearm to accomplish this? Why would you then oppose regulation on numbers of guns/ person?

You're not trying to "fight off a hostage situation"... You me...

This entire thread is started on ppl shooting other ppl over material possessions and in situations that are/ were not classified "life threatening" - without punishment. It's about the simplicity in which ppl can obtain firearms...



Yes, I don't agree with killing over material possessions, although I wouldn't say self defense is the only acceptable time to use deadly force. Protecting a third party would be an example otherwise.

My firearms are not primarily for self defense, although both can be used so, and both would have very specific uses. Why do you have a problem with someone owning multiple guns? They've only got two hands.

This thread started over Florida's retraction of the duty to retreat from their laws I believe (I'm not going back to check it out, I'm lazy, sue me). That says nothing about shooting over material possessions, it merely says that I don't legally have to run away from a confrontation first.

 Written by:


We had these scenarios before... no need to repeat them. Someone breaks into the house, I call the cops and stay in my bedroom, period. Someone demands my wallet, I hand it over. Someone attacks me with a knife, I try to run a.f.a.p. Ahead of this situation, I try to walk away from potential conflict and train myself in unarmed self defense.

Simple.



Interesting, I would do the same. There are however situations where other actions would be required.

If it is only me in my house, that's one thing. But what if there is another person home? Say a child, sleeping in another room. You're going to lock yourself in your room, plug your ears and cover your eyes until the bad man goes away?

What if the intruder kicks in your door? What if they have a knife? or a gun? and they're intent on harming/killing you? I'm willing to bet the criminal is going to have a whole lot more street fighting experience than you will. You'll probably lose if they're armed and you are not.

I've said it before that you should never 'hunt' an intruder in your home. You're automatically at a huge tactical disadvantage. But I would leave my room to protect a child, to put everyone in one room, that can be properly defended. I would also call 911, and would announce loud enough so the intruder could hear that I am armed, and I will consider any attempt to enter my room as a threat to my life. At that point the ball is in their court. Deadly force is a last resort, but I'm not going to try to and disarm a man with a knife, that would like end with one or both of us seriously injured or dead.

 Written by:

So the only logical solution to the problem ("they were sold to them illegally + More regulations won't stop that. ") is a ban. I can't understand that you fight the right for self-determination (like wearing a seatbelt/ helmet or not) but defend the right to cause harm and to support a corrupt and lethal industry...



Not true, How about more effective enforcement of the regulations that are already in effect? How about more funding to Law Enforcement which is severely lacking in this country. We're one of the least policed countries in the world. How about we start enforcing the laws we already have before we start making more? Is that so unreasonable?

I don't fight the right for self-determination. You're more than welcome to refuse to wear your seatbelt. I will however, still say it is an idiotic stance. There are many states where helmet's are optional while riding a motorcycle. I still think it would be stupid to ride without a helmet, but you have the right to decide for yourself.


Stone: Would you really want to give 110% to help someone who doesn't do anything to help themselves? If we want a stronger nation, or to ever reach that 'ideal world' you can't condone nor encourage that type of activity. While the government does have a duty to protect its citizens, the citizens have an equal, if not larger duty to protect themselves do they not? I don't believe that the ineptitude of the assistance was done as an intentional form of punishment, but there were communities in Mississippi that were hit much harder, and nearly completely destroyed by the same hurricane that didn't suffer the same fate. They helped themselves, and got the job done. I'm more than willing to continue discussing Katrina, but it's a bit off topic for this thread.

 Written by:

I dont have a problem with guns in an ideal world where all crime is eliminated. Guns have a certain attraction, and I can understand guns for fun and marksmanship. No problem.



Thank you for that BTW beerchug


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:suicide is a crime...you can be prosecuted if you fail or even posthumously (sp). Mostly though they are considered mentally unable to stand trial and nothing happens. You can even be sued by the city for costs. I sort of think it's funny, in a sad sad way.

As for drug offenses, they generally only are prohibitive if they are felony charges. Not all drug charges are felonies. I believe cocaine and subproducts are automatically now in my state because dealers and addicts are getting to be a problem.

Education is not restriction. It's education. If people are going to be owning such a powerful weapon, it's very reasonable. You have to take a drivers test.

I could argue about how corrupt big oil and car companies are and how lethal those products are, but I think we have gone over that enough

As for why we are talking about things getting stolen, it's not about shooting people over them. We have been talking about for awhile people and their role in being targets of crime. Some of us have said no matter where we are there is crime. I live in a place of small children and retired people-some old guy got his tired slash because some kid was a jerk. How much responsiblity the victim claims is the conversation. No one is really talking about shooting anyone-we have generally moved past that part of the conversation and there's no need to rehash it


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Mako
Mako

member

Member Since: 31st Jul 2007
Total posts: 53
Posted:suicide a crime...that isn't sad, that's sick.
So not only have you reached a point of complete frustration/deperation that you can see no other way out..but on top of have the worry that you'll be sued if it goes wrong. BRILLIANT!!
Christ what kind of mad2 -up world do we live in?!


If a tree falls in a forest with no one to witness it...do the other trees laugh?

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:like i said though mostly the charges aren't put forward because of mental health issues
it's just something on the books-like is it in cleveland or new york you can't have an ice cream cone in your back pocket


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Humm...I never thought of suicide as being a crime but seeing suicide is a betrays a serious mental illness I have to agree with FiF on the whole not being fit to stand trial thing.

If we tie it into the greater issue of responsibility and I let the macabre side of my imagination run wild I can envision a scenario where a tenant in a rental property commits suicide.

Days pass........weeks even.

Then suddenly the landlord has a serious bio-hazard on his hands, so along with the lost rental income and the costs of cleanup, then why shouldn't the estate of the suicide be expected to cover those damages ?


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:It's basically a crime so that you can be forced into receiving psychiatric care

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch I agree, guns are for fun. So why am I still hearing stories like this:

 Written by:

What if the intruder kicks in your door? What if they have a knife? or a gun? and they're intent on harming/killing you? I'm willing to bet the criminal is going to have a whole lot more street fighting experience than you will. You'll probably lose if they're armed and you are not.



Whats going on here? It seems like, even in an ideal world, there would be criminals knocking at the door, and it wouldnt be that long before people started using guns for non-fun purposes.

To me, and this is most definitely an opinion, is sounds like there is a lot of internal dialogue going on here. By internal dialogue I mean self talk, the little voice in our head; its part of our survival programming. Sometimes this leads to creating irrational fears. I prefer irrational fears to the now infamous dark forces of man theory.

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Stone: Would you really want to give 110% to help someone who doesn't do anything to help themselves?



We have our problems in Australia, but most people would give 110% to see them redressed. We dont abandon people, so I dont understand why you even have to think about helping out fellow Americans? I mean its a big call to condemn people because you think they mooch off the system. I wonder whats happened to your sense of Compassion?

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While the government does have a duty to protect its citizens, the citizens have an equal, if not larger duty to protect themselves do they not?



Perhaps its our convict heritage, but in Australia we have a healthy disrespect for the police, and certainly dont expect them to molly coddle us. We certainly dont take policing into our own hands or go around policing the community vigilante style.

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No, it's not. It's societies responsibility to ensure that you're not oppressed, that doesn't mean they must give everyone equal opportunity. You have to earn some things, when people are just handed opportunity through their whole life they take it for granted, and can't function as an individual, they mooch off the system (a large part of the Katrina hassle)



Lurch, Im not sure what you are saying here about societies responsibilities. That all people are not created equal? I thought it went something like this:

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



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If we want a stronger nation, or to ever reach that 'ideal world' you can't condone nor encourage that type of activity.



A united nation is a strong nation. At present, America is not a strong nation, Katrina proved that. There was anarchy and the system collapsed under pressure. What will happen if Hurricane Dean wipes out the Gulf of Mexico oil and natural gas production, and petrol gets scarce?

Stout, as far as the greater issue of responsibility goes. The mindfullness meditation (link above) helps people get present to the real world, and break free from the stories we make up about the world. As far a suicide goes, the mental illness is often depression. Mindfulness and Cogitative Behavior Therapy are used a part of the strategy to beat depression.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Well I don't know about your ideal world Stone, but in mine there wouldn't be criminals to begin with.

Are you trying to say I have irrational fears? Because if that's the case I would have to argue with you. There is nothing irrational, nor fearful about my statements. Those things happen every day, even to the people who think it would never happen to them. You're willing to accept that an intruder may come into your house, in which case you've even come up with a plan. But somehow it's too far out of the realm of possibilities for that intruder to be intent on hurting you? Come on now. Pretending the bad man isn't there won't do anything when the time comes. You may see it as paranoia, but I would rather have thought about it, on the itty bitty slim chance that something similar may happen, and at least have a plan to go by rather than just wing it. Have you ever thought about what you would do if you were in a car accident? Fender bender or severe? Who would you call? What would you say? It's all the same thing, it's about being prepared. If you've convinced yourself that the world is a happy go lucky place where nothing bad happens, you're putting your whole world at risk of crashing down when someone shatters that reality.

I've done Search & Rescue for nearly a decade, I've done the crime scenes, and the body recoveries, I've seen sides of humanity that most people will never come in contact with. I just want to be prepared and give myself the best possible chance. If you know any police officer, EMS (paramedics) or firefighters I'm sure they have similar viewpoints.

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We have our problems in Australia, but most people would give 110% to see them redressed. We dont abandon people, so I dont understand why you even have to think about helping out fellow Americans? I mean its a big call to condemn people because you think they mooch off the system.



I think this may be a part of America that foreigners simply don't understand about us. There is a certain 'welfare' population in the US that do "mooch" off the system. I'm all for helping people, I wouldn't be in my profession if I didn't want to help people. But it becomes hard when you're helping someone who doesn't want to help themselves. They can either live off welfare because they "can't find a job," or they could actually find a job, but then they would have to work. I worked for FEMA during hurricanes Francis and Ivan a few years ago, my brother got called out to work for them during Katrina, and he's still on the job.

I'm not lacking in compassion, I will bend over backwards to help someone who wants my help, but I'm only going to do so much for the person who doesn't. It's easier for these people to let the government pay for everything, than to get up and work for their own living.

Let me put it to you this way. Say you had a friend, who ran out of gas on the side of the road, and they called you. You would probably get a gas can and bring them a gallon or two to make it home, or to a gas station yes? So would I. Now imagine if that same friend saw that, and figured, why should he ever buy gas again? Whenever he runs out, he calls you, and you bring a couple gallons for him to continue on his way. How long would it take before you stopped giving him gas? For that matter, how long before they were no longer your friend? If someone saw you decline to help your "friend" they would probably see you as heartless, but they don't know the full story.

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Perhaps its our convict heritage, but in Australia we have a healthy disrespect for the police, and certainly dont expect them to molly coddle us. We certainly dont take policing into our own hands or go around policing the community vigilante style.



I think that one was taken a bit out of context, that was more in reference to Katrina than to guns. If a person is warned, and even ordered to leave an area because they are in danger, and they don't follow the orders, my compassion for their situation is going to drop. You've brought it on yourself at that point. Now of course it's different if you were physically unable to do what needed to be done, but many of the people stuck in New Orleans had no real reason why they didn't leave other than they 'didn't want to.'

I whole heartedly believe in personal responsibility. If you bring tragedy on yourself, I'll still help you, but you'll get a whole lot more respect from me if you actually try to help yourself in the process rather than letting, or even expecting me do all the work.

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



People are created equal, in those senses. They all have the right and the ability to make whatever they want out of their lives. They have the right to choose where their life goes. But they have to earn their success, it isn't, and shouldn't handed to them. Many of the most successful people on the planet came from middle to lower class families, so that's not the problem.

As I've said before, Katrina was a special circumstance, many of the communities outside of New Orleans were hit far harder, but you heard little to nothing about them on the news. The system worked fairly well, they rebuilt, and things are almost normal again.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I wouldn't claim that you have irrational fears, Lurch - but you do have fears to which you react irrationally.

At the end of the day it all boils down to: How to face life and it's obstacles and soon we slip into philosophy and "what you (not) believe".

"In an ideal world there would be no criminals" (to start with). I side you on that one. How do we get there? First of all (IMHO) by understanding, compassion and good will/ best faith. I do understand your example, you wouldn't just provide gas like that for a "friend"... but maybe for your lover or child? In order to escape this circle, you have to teach your friend what your friendship means, where your responsibility ends and his own starts. Certainly if you continue service and cease friendship from one day to the next (as in "enough is enough"), you will not teach a lesson that keeps the friendship alife. Certainly if you are facing someone recklessly exploiting your friendship you have to turn around on your self and ask yourself why and what you need this friendship for (to start with).

Do you have insurance? Health, retirement, fire, theft, natural desasters, for the event of an accident, for the event of an accident in which you might get handicapped and can't continue to work your own income, in case of getting sick when you get old and need special care and for the unlikely event that the heaven drops on your head? There is a slight chance to any of these events and very often it hits those who thought: This will never happen to me.

How responsible are you acting, if you have none of the mentioned insurances - relying on your family and friends and fellow citizens in the (un)likely event that one of these conditions become reality?

But you insure yourself against the (un)likely event of an intruder coming into your house and threatening the life of your wife and child, or getting randomly shot in a robbery in a supermarket, whilst lying flat on your stomach. You purchase this insurance in a gun shop and keep it in your home - onetime investment only. (I have to ponder which way you'd be more beneficial to your relatives: by keeping a gun or by financing a life insurance... however....)

By keeping a gun you meet force with force (at least that's the aim) and a valid approach (maybe). Personally I guess that this approach is counter-productive. Mankind is doing this since it's dawn and in summary the suffering has not been diminished, nor has crime.

People are people and it's them, not the guns that kill.

Just yesterday a man shot down his neighbor right here in Munich. People are people and every person has it's "breaking point". It's not the individual incident, but the summary of all situations that lead to a certain point, where someone abuses his power. The man, 76-yr old had a few fights with a 28yr old guy living in the basement of his appartment building. Friday night he waited for him and his girlfriend, drew a handgun, shot him twice and then tried to commit suicide. He did neither succeed in the murder nor in the suicide. He was one of those who shoot for "fun" or better "sports"... up to this day. He didn't have a (criminal) record up to this day, where he chose to shoot his neighbor.

Personally I also don't rely on the police to protect (all of) me. I rely on my life and my self and I try to keep as far away from places and circumstances that mean trouble. Somehow I did succeed, even though I have been to pretty bad areas. I have more faith in my fate now, than years back.

Whatever happens, does for a reason - even if I get robbed, cursed, insulted, threatened. I have to look for the solution of (my) problems within, not without. It's me, not the others. I do not need anyone to victimize me, to proove that I am alife or to draw attention. I do not need a fight to proove that I am a man. And I do not need to carry a gun to proove that I am capable of acting responsible. But first of all I am trying my very best to stay out of trouble, without surrender.

It's my mind that creates this (my) world - if I don't like it, I have to start here and now, not there and then.

It's your opinion and choice to believe that a gun can protect your life - I can only say that it won't (if the time has come). In the end nothing can shield you - no instrument can protect you, but your self.

To me it's apparent that (by keeping a gun) you have less trust (in your self, your life, your fellow citizens, the government, god and creation itself) than someone who keeps none. IMO trust is what we need, because I know that paranoia only breeds more paranoia.

Just an example: I walk down the street somewhere halfway remote in an Oz town. Nighttime. A guy walks the opposite direction and guess I sensed some anxiety in him. He (with clear and sound voice) greets me: "How'yer doing, mate?" I am greeting back same style and both walk our ways, assured that there was nothing to be fearful of. I am used to pass people at night on the street, not saying a word. But he "broke the ice" somehow. Do you understand what I mean? By directly communicating and showing each other that there is nothing to be fearful of, that we're all in the same boat - we create peace.

"The system" is neither designed to educate you in self-dependancy, self-responsibility and the least it is designed to provide you with happiness. You do have the right to "pursue" it, yes. But you have to stop at 3 am in the middle of the desert, if the traffic lights are "red". If you get caught, you get a ticket. If you get caught 20 times doing the same (in the US) you have a real chance to become a felon. Let me ask you: How wicked is that? You get educated that you need a cellphone, a (big) car, a flatscreen TV, an iPhone and you have to listen to Destiny's Child all day in order to be happy.

You're right: "Many of the most successful people on the planet came from middle to lower class families." But you're wrong at the same time: "so that's not the problem". Exactly that IS the problem. The "american dream" is a lie when it comes to 98% of the middle to lower class families. The american system sells this american dream and if you buy it you have to pay a high price, because this "freedom" you're talking about is coming with strings attached.

You're owning two cars, Lurch. Why? You only have one body to drive. You have multiple guns, Lurch. Why? You only have two hands to shoot with. You know ppl have been complaining about Osho, having about 90 Rolls Royce. How could a holy man own all these worldly possessions AND dare to display them in public? Look within yourself and you hold the answer. HIS answer has been something like: I am prooving that being a saint doesn't exclude a nice garment and a beautiful house. What is your answer?

How much money is spent to fund "abstience only" programs, "homeland security" and the like? At the same time you say that education and police surveillance is insufficient... how can this be? Billions of dollars are pumped into security, but this doesn't result in more safety. How absurd...

You do not believe that it's any of "our" business, but I tell you that the US has got a global impact and one that is beyond their maturity. It can be clearly observed in the recent homeloan crisis that affects global economy. It's the sharpest decline since.... 9/11, another US-homebred desaster.

You can certainly fool yourselves... wink But you have to know that it is your choice... smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, there is no ideal world except for the one we all share. Thats why we need to stop shooting each other, and start to work together to look after it.



We all have have irrational fears. You make it sound like you are living in downtown Iraq, not America.



Anyhow, who is bringing the world crashing down in front of our eyes? Is it not the Americans with their irrational fears of bad men and weapons of mass destruction? Did they not lead the invasion Iraq? The invasion that has created a civil war, and destabilized the world. See where irrational fears of bad men is taking us?



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They can either live off welfare because they "can't find a job," or they could actually find a job, but then they would have to work.





So, why are you judging and condemning all these people? How do you know their circumstances, it does not sound like fun living on welfare in America. What difference does it make if they dont work? They are still human beings. What is the full story?



I dont drive around looking for an accident because Im concentrating 110% on driving. Trust me, if you think you will have an accident then you probably will have one.







I agree Fire Tom,



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By directly communicating and showing each other that there is nothing to be fearful of, that we're all in the same boat - we create peace.





To me, the first step to communication is getting aware of stories in our head, because thats where the fear comes from.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:You guys seem to be under the notion that owning a gun turns one into a brute who can't discuss their problems rationally.

Yes Tom, I have insurance believe it or not. Statistically speaking you're likely to get into some sort of car accident in your life. Are you suggesting that it would be better to just keep a large life insurance policy so when I die my family gets lots of money? Aren't you the one preaching about the insignificance of worldly goods and we should just all get along?

As I've said before, my guns are not only, or even primarily used for self defense, so how are they a one time investment? They simply have a secondary use, seems like a bonus to me. You see force on force as counterproductive because you can't comprehend logic failing failing. That's great, and I wish you the best with that, but don't think because I have a gun I wouldn't try just as hard as you to talk my way out of a situation. I've said it a hundred times, deadly force is a *last* resort. You can't always talk yourself out of a situation, I have one more tool in my defensive bag than you do, and I'm great full for it.

You're right, people are people, and it's them, not the guns that kill. Your story is interesting, but obviously the gun was not the problem in that scenario. The gun was the tool, it could have just as easily been a kitchen knife, or countless other weapons. The problem is with how we treat each other.

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You get educated that you need a cellphone, a (big) car, a flatscreen TV, an iPhone and you have to listen to Destiny's Child all day in order to be happy.



Are you talking about pop culture and the media's influence on our lives? Because I thought I had already well established my disdain for that

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You're owning two cars, Lurch. Why? You only have one body to drive. You have multiple guns, Lurch. Why? You only have two hands to shoot with. You know ppl have been complaining about Osho, having about 90 Rolls Royce. How could a holy man own all these worldly possessions AND dare to display them in public? Look within yourself and you hold the answer. HIS answer has been something like: I am prooving that being a saint doesn't exclude a nice garment and a beautiful house. What is your answer?



I didn't say I own two cars, I said I drive two cars. One is my girlfriends, which we primarily drive due to fuel efficiency. I have multiple guns because they have multiple purposes. Would you rather one person had multiple guns? Or multiple people each had one? wink

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How much money is spent to fund "abstience only" programs, "homeland security" and the like? At the same time you say that education and police surveillance is insufficient... how can this be? Billions of dollars are pumped into security, but this doesn't result in more safety. How absurd...



Obscene amounts of money are put into systems which are all "good ideas" on paper but don't always follow through in reality. The "war on drugs" is one example, "no child left behind" another. They all sound good, but are utter failures. If you look at police forces, sheriff's offices, and the like. They have all seen severe funding cuts recently, and as a result most (save for the extremely large areas) have resulted in people being let go. You can spend millions of dollars to create new laws all you want, but you need to have people to enforce those laws or nothing will change.

People like to feel safe, and they prefer not to interact with law enforcement, so it is a delicate juggling act. Stone himself said that he has a 'healthy disrespect' for the police. Would you not call them for help if you needed them? How can you preach about treating your fellow man better when you disrespect people, and then turn around and expect their help when the time comes? Worse yet, whether you believe it or not you rely on them because you've done nothing to prepare yourself, other than relying on your wit and charm to talk yourself out of whatever situation you may get yourself into.

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So, why are you judging and condemning all these people? How do you know their circumstances, it does not sound like fun living on welfare in America. What difference does it make if they dont work? They are still human beings. What is the full story?



You're right, I don't know each individual's stories, and I'm sure there are many I would have compassion for. But I don't have any for people who abuse the system, and take and supplies from those who truly need it purely for their personal greed. Case in point, FEMA distributed thousands of credit cards in the aftermath of Katrina, that were intended to be used for clothing, food, and various other immediate needs. They were to be given *one* per household. Not only did many thousands of people 'work the system' to get as many people in a single house the cards as possible, they also used them on frugal expenditures like TV's, and jewelry. In fact, part of my brothers job is to track down the people cheating the system for personal gain. While it's nice that you have such a high faith in human decency, reality doesn't hold that to be fact.

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I dont drive around looking for an accident because Im concentrating 110% on driving. Trust me, if you think you will have an accident then you probably will have one.



Neither do I, and I never said I did. But if you have not at least prepared for the situation you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Or do you think we should stop doing fire drills in schools? I mean, seriously, how often is a kid killed in a school fire?

You've put so much into your belief in the greater good of humanity that you've blinded yourself do the darker side.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Or they just believe that everyone else has the same goal and will agree with the method they think best to get there

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Not to stir things up, but I just found this and thought you guys may find it interesting as well. I haven't been able to dig up the actual article/interview where it was said, but I've found a number of sources siting the same quotation..

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Dr. Arthur Kellerman, stated: "If you've got to resist, you're chances of being hurt are less the more lethal your weapon. If that were my wife, would I want her to have a .38 Special in her hand? Yeah." (Health Magazine, March/April 1994)



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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:if a person doesn't have a gun it can't be taken off them and used against them, same with any weapon. If someone in the US is gonna rob you, they probably have a gun... to be fair they are probably more practiced with it too.... would I want my GF to be gun to gun with someone? probably not because they would more than likely shoot first.



Gun crime in US compared to UK? need I say more and when you check UK figures remember 50% approx of gun crimes in UK are based on airguns wink


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:in an effort at fairness I'd also like to point out that a knifeman can draw his knife and close quicker than most can draw and aim a gun hence the phillipines (i think) training on knife fighting against gunmen.... so I still wouldn't want my lady holding the gun wink



edit

US accidental gun injuries per year



UK drink drive deaths per year



how can anybody justify something that takes that many lives accidentally a year? as many as die on our roads each year from drunk driving which we are still trying to stamp out.



I've read some of lurches arguments and they are quite good i agree just because you own a gun your not a monster, but I'm sure there aren't that many accidental deaths from other weapons and if anybody can get a gun those people who will use them for harm can get them easily. you have more chance to survve a knife fight than a gun fight, and more likely again to survive a fist fight over a knife fight.



I don't agree with the notion of the person with the deadliest weapon is safest that's just made up rolleyes

EDITED_BY: Mynci (1187709075)


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I don't think the robbery/gun ratio is that high...if you have a gun can't they charge you with more...like assault with a deadly weapon...it seems silly but such things are taken into account. obviously not with all criminals, but with some.
I believe that someone posted someplace in this neverending thread that knife fights caused more physical damage...I'll look for it later.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I was the one who said I would rather get into a gun fight than a knife fight.

Armed robbery is a more serious crime than simple robbery yes. If you compare the average CCW holder to the average criminal, I would say someone with a concealed license is going to be much more practiced than the average criminal. Think about what you just said Mynci, if your girlfriend was being attacked by someone with a gun trying to kill her, you would prefer her to be unarmed and unable to fight back? I'm not talking about robbery, I'm talking about a physical threat to you (or her) life.

Yes, the Tueller Drill has shown that a knife within ~21' will win against a holstered gun. Not true if the gun is already out however. You can't really compare US and UK deaths, especially if you're not comparing per capita.

The thing is, *not* everyone can get a gun, there are plenty of laws already in place making it illegal for 'bad guys' to get guns. Those that still go out and get them are obtaining them illegally, so how is making more laws going to stop the people who already get them by breaking laws?

A lot of criminals have never fired their gun, or if they have they haven't bothered to actually practice with it. Many don't even have them loaded, or chambered with the correct ammunition. They're not the responsible gun owners I'm trying to protect in this thread. They'll miss more than they hit. I would much rather get into a gun fight than a knife fight, if you've ever seen a knife fight or the aftermath you would understand why.


The quote that I put up there was from one of the biggest 'anti-gun' "scientists" that FireTom and Stone have cited multiple times about the evilness of guns. He's not saying the deadliest weapon is the safest, he's saying that the deadlier the weapon the faster the resolution, and the less likely you'll be wounded in the process.


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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted: Written by: Lurch


Think about what you just said Mynci, if your girlfriend was being attacked by someone with a gun trying to kill her, you would prefer her to be unarmed and unable to fight back?



where is she? out on the street without her gun in an alley somewhere? at home in bed? if at home they are probably more intent on robbery and the step to murder a long way, if she was holding a gun she would get shot 100% if not then they may just point and back away.

on the street? then she'd be screwed anyway by the guy who wasn't allowed a gun by law but robbed it from my girlfriend when he broke in because she was able to get it legally?

the fact that people CAN get guns easily makes the laws sopping "bad" guys immaterial, they can get a supply from people with clean records who can get them for them.

UK gun crime is tiny compared to america and it's not because of the weather wink


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, I have never cited Kellermann on the evilness of guns. His research shows that people are three times more like to get shot at home by a person they know. Guns are dangerous.

Ive seen the Kellermann quote around, he has a point. Though, in reality his wife is more likely to be accidentally shot at home. So there in lies the problem. Reality. What is real and what is illusionary? I have never said there are not real threats out there, what Ive questioned is this American obsessions with guns. Ive maintained that guns are dangerous. If you hear guns are evil, then thats your filter, at work.

Lurch, this is false:

 Written by:

The thing is, *not* everyone can get a gun, there are plenty of laws already in place making it illegal for 'bad guys' to get guns.



Kids can get semi automatic weapons at gun shows and their ammo at KMart. How come? Loopholes, and NRA thinks its an infringement of their rights to check second hand gun sales at gun shows.

Lurch, further on reality.

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Obscene amounts of money are put into systems which are all "good ideas" on paper but don't always follow through in reality. The "war on drugs" is one example, "no child left behind" another. They all sound good, but are utter failures.



Have you read any official reports that show that these "good ideas" projects didnt meet their objectives, or is it just your opinion?

The problem seems to be obscene amounts of money are put into good ideas projects and not into domestic policing. Perhaps you should look where the money is going. The US government is spending $5.9 billion per month in Iraq, to play international policeman. Plus a $1.0 billion per month in Afghanistan, plus whatever in Korea and other places. Thats per month. So, is it any wonder that no funding left over for domestic police?

Lurch, I said Perhaps its our convict heritage, but in Australia we have a healthy disrespect for the police, and certainly dont expect them to molly coddle us. A healthy disrespect means we dont go running to the police unless we really need them. As far as preparing ourselves for emergencies. Australians are like any other people, and we will stand up when necessary. In other situations, we would keep out of the way. Good grief, the last thing the police force needs is armed amateurs running around trying to help them. Its a sure recipe for disaster.

Lurch, on the perceived social welfare problem:

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You're right, I don't know each individual's stories, and I'm sure there are many I would have compassion for. ..Not only did many thousands of people 'work the system' to get as many people in a single house the cards as possible, they also used them on frugal expenditures like TV's, and jewelry. In fact, part of my brothers job is to track down the people cheating the system for personal gain. While it's nice that you have such a high faith in human decency, reality doesn't hold that to be fact.



Lurch, you are making moral judgements over possessions. People in positions of authority should be impartial. Just because someone doesnt conform to your view of the protestant work ethic doesnt mean they deserve to die. It seems like you are concerned more about TV's, and jewelry than people. As far as the Katrina evacuation went, were the people left to die in nursing homes and hospitals asked to leave or just left for dead?

On driving:

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 Written by:

I dont drive around looking for an accident because Im concentrating 110% on driving. Trust me, if you think you will have an accident then you probably will have one.



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Neither do I, and I never said I did. But if you have not at least prepared for the situation you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.





Sure, Lurch Im prepared. Ive taken advanced motorbike riding courses, which is where I got the above bit of advice. The instructors also recommended I wear a helmet for protection, they didnt recommend carrying a gun. You see a helmet protects someone from injury, just like a seat belt. A gun, on the other hand, causes injury. Injury is the opposite of protection. Ok, some misguided people see guns as protection. However, guns cause violence and death, to call them protection is stupid and senseless. Calling gun protection is like saying a termination is better protection than a condom.

The other problem with guns is people become dependent on them, and when you dont have one, you are lost, snookered, helpless. Just like Samson without his hair.

Good Night smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:"The evilness of guns" is a misunderstood statement of mine. I tried to clarify what is meant when I say: "Guns appeal to the darker side in men"... rolleyes

Lurch, I acknowledge that you might be a very responsible gun owner and minimize potential abuse and accidents. I'm not questioning it - I'm not hailing you, simply because I have to depend on what you are telling us here. No verification possible from my side.

I just notice black and white painting of society and individuals. "Criminals are no responsible gun owners, "they" do like this and that..." rolleyes

Like law enforcement officers, soldiers or on the other hand like criminals, moochers and terrorists they are one thing at first: Living human beings. They eat, breathe, have families and friends. "They" just have a different approach to life. If I were to be an Iraqi law obiding citizen and an US soldier would walk into my home an threat my family for no obvious reason, I certainly would call him a "criminal".

Understanding is an important key issue here. The more we (successfully) look into ppls lives and heads, the less we fear and we stop to seriously generalize/ cast judgements that are only good to seperate us from each other.

Fact is: Almost everyone (criminal record or not) CAN get a gun in the US - due to second hand sales. No restrictions apply here, no verification. THere is no law to enforce - just as an example...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Well here again I have to disagree. Why do you equate my defense of guns with an obsession? Of course guns are dangerous, thats why all I ask for is proper training and safety.

Kids cannot get semi-automatic weapons at gun shows and their ammo at k-mart. I'm pretty sure Kmart doesn't carry firearms of any sort anymore. Federal law says you have to be at least 18 years old for long arms, and 21 years old for handgun ammunition. I've never *not* been carded buying ammo. *If* there are kids buying guns, they are probably using fake ID, which would then make it a crime. Who's fault is it then?

Again, why do you think I want to go run around playing vigilante? I've said time after time, deadly force is a last resort. If it comes to that, you simply do not have time to wait for a police officer to come and save you. You would be dead if you didn't do something. Thats hardly a bunch of 'amateurs running around trying to help'. That is someone fighting to stay alive. You call that a recipe for disaster?

 Written by:

Lurch, you are making moral judgements over possessions. People in positions of authority should be impartial. Just because someone doesnt conform to your view of the protestant work ethic doesnt mean they deserve to die. It seems like you are concerned more about TV's, and jewelry than people. As far as the Katrina evacuation went, were the people left to die in nursing homes and hospitals asked to leave or just left for dead?



Maybe I am making moral judgements, but you don't really see the full scope of the situation from where you sit across the pond. I never said any of those people 'deserve to die' Nor did I say that I didn't have compassion or want to help the people who were physically unable to remove themselves from the threat. It was the people who didn't leave when they were told to, simply because they didn't feel like it that I don't have as *much* compassion for. Those are the same people cheating the system, yes, they are cheating the system, and they know full well.

 Written by:

Sure, Lurch Im prepared. Ive taken advanced motorbike riding courses, which is where I got the above bit of advice. The instructors also recommended I wear a helmet for protection, they didnt recommend carrying a gun. You see a helmet protects someone from injury, just like a seat belt. A gun, on the other hand, causes injury. Injury is the opposite of protection. Ok, some misguided people see guns as protection. However, guns cause violence and death, to call them protection is stupid and senseless. Calling gun protection is like saying a termination is better protection than a condom.

The other problem with guns is people become dependent on them, and when you dont have one, you are lost, snookered, helpless. Just like Samson without his hair.



Now who's making judgement calls? Once again, you're only seeing the negative side of guns. While they may cause injury and death to the person trying to hurt me, the act of causing that injury prevents them from injuring me, which in effect protects me. You've agreed that there are some cases where deadly force may be required for self defense, then surely you must agree that there are some situations you cannot talk your way out of, and violence is required.

I wouldn't say that guns are like abortions, however abortions are 100% effective, condoms are not.

I also wouldn't say that people with guns are dependent on them, however as stated above, there are situations where anyone would be dependent on a weapon to survive, or risk serious bodily harm or death.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:you could say going out and killing everyone in your town is "protection" then as then they can't harm you.



Protection is defense, guns are not defensive I think the use of the term defence for something with possible aggressive conotations is absurd. (including governmental)



what you have basically said is if you are scared yoou can shoot someone? you didn't mention "in the home" what your talking about is leathal force for "fear" the same fear which makes people do as their told by someone holding a gun (even unloaded)



so someones broken into the house... there is a noise behind, you turn and shoot, your child is now lying dead on the floor... if you didn't shoot, the robber has now killed you for hesitating...



I'm sure police have lots of training to handle a gun and shooting is only a last resort, maybe there should be gun tests to get a licence... like driving a car only more dangerous...


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:"Kids can get semi automatic weapons at gun shows and their ammo at KMart. How come? Loopholes, and NRA thinks its an infringement of their rights to check second hand gun sales at gun shows. "
First, let's not start with evil and guns again. Second, stop being like this. They can't. Kmart doesn't sell firearms anymore.

"The problem seems to be obscene amounts of money are put into good ideas projects and not into domestic policing. Perhaps you should look where the money is going. The US government is spending $5.9 billion per month in Iraq, to play international policeman. Plus a $1.0 billion per month in Afghanistan, plus whatever in Korea and other places. Thats per month. So, is it any wonder that no funding left over for domestic police? "

Don't be an extremist. There is money earmarked for military, educatiion, domestic issues. That's what a budget is for. How much money is put into the police force is a local government issue, not federal.

We have also been through the fact that guns protect. Most guns are for protection purposes. Even police really carry them for protection. Of themselves and of the public.]

Also, gun laws differ per state. Mostly, felons are not supposed to have a weapon but it seems to be a personal recognizance thing. But also, just because they are a criminal doesn't make them a bad person. For a year, I was a criminal-just didn't get caught. But I still went out of my way to help people. Laws do need to be enforced

We have also discussed that we do want people who own guns to be responsible. Many of them go to classes or to a range. And knowing that you're family is in the house, you aren't going to shoot randomly at noises.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:I understand if people keep guns for sport.



but as defense in a house? I just don't see the logic.



if for defense would it be easily accessible? say where a child could get it?

or

safely locked away? where it could be impossible to get should you have an intruder?



which of these is the "sensible" "safe" "proctection"?



according to this the incidence of burglary are 29.5 in 1000 and also only 50% of these involve a weapon. and only 50% of these involve a gun.

seems a slim chance of coming up against a gunman in a home robbery...


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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