Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Myself I am not free from guilt to have contributed to boil things up and certainly I have hurt other ppls feelings... rolleyes It seems to be one part of the process.

spank ubbidea hug
devil ubbidea ubbangel
ubbidea grouphug

You are right: It became a massive thread and I would also like to move on and talk about solutions, rather than continue to feed the frenzy.

Having peace in the head is not easy - has never been... meditate

Forget my question about the place/ person you traded that gun, because basically it's meant to be a booby trap wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:but now should i never be allowed to have a permit. I still have a clean record and been dry for 6 mnths

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[post deleted]
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180726226)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i'm not sure what I was supposed to be reading with that link. something about other laws, about how we need to educate ourselves and something about sane people not owning guns, what did you want me to read...maybe quote it with ellipses smile

i would say it could be cured with people minding their own problems and learning personal responsiblity


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[post deleted]
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180726262)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:done
questionable legality
do you mean required? because there are fantastic ways to educate b/n family and classes
done
why
done

there are you happy

oh wait, i think lurch went over this with you so now we are repeating ourselves


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol Hits *ignore this user* button and chills out.... ubbidea wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:dang I keep forgetting to use smilie faces bounce

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Mhh, silence (as ignorance) can be blissful... kiss



Just sharing this one:




Non-Https Image Link


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:hmm you want us to think rationally and look at the facts, and then you would post a photoshopped photo like that shrug



am adding the following articles



http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/88764.html

People getting rid of guns



http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/phi...n_with_gun.html

A cop in trouble



http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/global/story.asp?s=6597450

A soldier in trouble



http://news.yahoo.com/s/wisn/20070531/lo_wisn/13422644

Im not the only one who finds guns in their car. Hartland is over by me.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6712803.stm

A gun in the UK?

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1180730366)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Still bliss out in ignorance... rolleyes



wink



Another image, but one that made me crack up - can't resist to post it, even though it's offtopic... isn't it?


Non-Https Image Link


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Hi faith! hug

Stone, I honestly don't know how to attack this one (education) except on an individual basis. Perhaps there's a way, but I honestly get so disheartened sometimes. We need teachers who care, and parents who follow through. We need people who will talk and listen to each other rather than use false niceties when just trying to force their opinions on others.

Remember (rhetorically) the day when your neighbor showed up at your house the day after you moved in with a basket of muffins and a "welcome to the neighborhood"? Yeah, me neither. That makes me sad. I encounter so many parents and families every single day in my work that are filled with such hatred and spite that they project that into their children. These children grow up to be our neighbors, our co-workers, our fellow students, our lovers, and our ex-lovers. And then they breed without consideration of the importance and responsibility of being a parent, and they pass on their own internalized hatred.

My parents have been married for 41 years now. How many people do you know that can claim that? And they still love each other and treat each other with compassion as they did the day they married. How many more people do you know that can claim that? I have two sisters who I would go to the end of the earth and back for, and a half a dozen friends or so that I would do the same for as well. Two years ago, after being on this site actively for only a few months, a group of people in the UK (and a few Aussies and an American) pooled their money and flew me to London for a weekend just so I could join them for a get together. When do you remember someone bestowing that type of compassion on you? That experience is one among a handful that changed my life, that has become a cornerstone of my philosophy on how I live my life. None of us are free from poor judgment and mistakes at times, but your intentions and choices define you. And if you set out wanting to be a genuinely good person, that karma returns to you and spreads into everyone around you. And THAT, in my humble opinion, is what changes the world, that reduces the violence. It's not laws, it's not more regulations, it's not more restrictions. It's compassion. How do we teach that? I don't know, but it doesn't stop me from trying every day.

I keep this running list of inspirational quotes that I use to inspire me when I'm feeling sad and pessimistic. I need it to help me remember I'm on a journey, that I can make a difference no matter how small, to remember that I am working for a better world. And I use laughter as much as I can.


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well I do like your suggestions and reading through your post made me unignore faiths posts. I read the articles she linked to and reflected on what you suggest.

First of all: I do not regard everyone as a potential criminal. That interpretation of my statement is subject to discretion. Both of my apologies have been genuine - I hope you find a way to accept it.

Back to topic: I totally agree with what you say. But we indeed not need teachers who only care - but who receive a better payment than they actually do. The experience of standing all morning in front of a class, with 30 kids who don't want to learn a thing (because as a movie/ pop star you only need to know how to be cool and rebellious), this experiencing can be soo draining. IMO Teachers should be amongst the best paid people in the world.

Personally I do know how much compassion I bestowed on others, how much it cost me, how I have to fight keeping up that positive attitude and how much effort that can be. (You do not know me outside this board, maybe not even outside this forum - so how could you know)

All this set aside - being realistic: I also have no foolproof concept on how to teach compassion and respect in a respectful and compassionate way. IMO it's something where some have to go through a process and render it for themself. A change of education takes time/ effort, but it would be the only way to cure the disease at the root. Laws and regulations are not the solution, I agree on that one too. But what about the (human) suffering that happens today and tomorrow? How many more lives have to get wasted, until we get the plot? Ppl are getting killed every day, no?

Which is why I disapprove the promotion that guns are good for you. Not only it spreads paranoia, itches the darker side in ppl and tackles the wrong end of the horse - it contributes to (human) suffering on a far bigger scale: You support the weapon industry.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Good god FireTom..

First off let me say that your previous two posts have been nothing but rude, ignorant, completely inappropriate, and IMHO blatent flame bait. Stop being a troll and learn some tact.

That said.. You agree with us on everything now except the promotion of gun ownership? That's rediculous. We *have* to promote responsible gun ownership. You complain that people these days are violent, and only see guns in a negative manner but you yourself are the one perpetuating these thoughts. You are the one refuseing to believe that there could possibly be a 'positive' side to gun ownership, and in turn dooming them to the "dark side." If the ONLY thing people ever see about guns are people like you saying 'THEY'RE EVIL! DESTROY THEM ALL BEFORE THEY DESTROY US!!' of course they're going to see guns in a negative light, and some people will use that to their advantage. Look back 30, 40, 50 years, when kids were taught the truth about guns from a young age, taught to respect them, and that they had uses OTHER than in the movies shooting and killing people. My dad brought his rifle to school many times growing up, it was NORMAL to have hunting rifle in your car. There were shooting clubs in school! And there weren't school shootings either. What has changed? These genius "enlightened" people twisting gun culture into evil, by demanding the removal of everything positive.

How about letting people make up their own minds as to whether or not they do or don't want guns around them? Whether or not guns are "evil" or good. You say you want good energy in the world but so far in this thread the *only* people saying anything positive have been us pro-gun people. I promote the self defense industry. I promote the idea that good people, deserve the right to live a peaceful life, and have the right to ensure that they can continue living. I would much rather have 10 dead violent criminals than one dead victim.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You got me wrong Lurch. I still disagree with you on pretty much everything. You have the right to regard my posts as you wish - I have no part in this. I agreed with Pounce (and still do) that there is more and better education needed (but unlikely to be funded).

- People who buy guns fund the weapon industry and therefore contribute to global (human) suffering.

- People who own guns put their family and friends at a higher risk to get involved into a gun accident.

- People who promote gun ownership do contribute to paranoia within the community.

- There is hardly a justification for carrying a gun in public (a few exceptions to the rule).

Having said this: there are few exceptions, where gun ownership is necessary and I suggested certain regulations in order to minimize potential human losses and crimes committed, involving "legal" gun ownership.

It's hard to admit that times have changed and the good old days have gone - but it's time to get real about some facts: These are not the good old times and we have to adjust. Back in the days George Washington was growing hemp and ppl didn't talk about global warming. One was able to carry his gun, walk into the woods and kill pretty much everything. It was back in those days, were Aboriginals have been part of the "wildlife" and were not even regarded human beings...


Non-Https Image Link


Let me add some articles:

Read 2nd diary entry for "recreational gun use", "sportive aspects" and "the brighter side of guns"

Peoples Press report after Columbine

New Jersey Press on illegal gun use

Salut for now smile


Non-Https Image Link


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Sorry FireTom, but you're the only one contributing to paranoia and mass hysteria here. You honestly think that me owning a gun contributes to world suffering? Please, tell me how.

Most people who have permits, or even own guns, do not generally share that information with people around them. They are CONCEALED permits, how then does that contribute to ANY sort of paranoia in their community if no one in the community knows of the permit or the gun? That gun only comes out when it's needed.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:*sigh* rolleyes

You almost had me reading your posts again and then you bust out the asinine cartoons and statements again. How many times can you honestly change your stance and then swear up and down you never said that before? You don't believe in more rules and regulations? Were you not the one saying gun owners should be drug tested on a regular bsais? You said you only said *once* that everyone is just a criminal who hasn't been caught *yet* (or something to that effect), but just as faith has said, this discussion has spanned at least two threads and have several hundred posts behind it. I'm not going to dig through them all to point this out to you because, a) I shouldn't have to, and b) all you'd do would give me one of those "oh I'm so sorry, my bad *insert a million smilies here*" and then go back to being an ass. That false niceties comment I made? That was for you. But I, unlike you, try to use genuine politeness and tact. I'm surprised faith is still even talking to you with the way you've directly treated her in this thread. You're right, I don't know you beyond this thread or in real life, but why would I want to? You haven't shown me anything that makes me want to actually get to know you because the image you present here is someone who will act all fake and nice but really will turn into a prick and deny it. At least be real, I know I at least value that more. You're allowed to get mad and upset, but don't be an ass and at least own up to it when you do. It's people like you that make me have to take a deep breath, pull out my list of quotes, and remind myself I need to still try despite the glass half empty (and apparently full of poison) kind of people. Here's one just for you....
This is who I am, what I do, and what I say. If you like it, let it be. If you dont, please do the same.
--Ani DiFranco, Pick Yer Nose

You say it's not like the "good ol days" anymore, and you're right. But that's exactly what I'm trying to say. There are pieces of that we never should have lost. Why, in our evolution to achieve better, did we have to lose the humanity of our interconnectedness? You're right, teachers need to be paid more. But even if that doesn't happen (right now) does that mean we need to stop trying for better?


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:So you agree: teachers are underpaid, the government should spend more on education.

You disagree that the arms industry is causing human suffering and you disagree that by purchasing a gun, the arms industry is making profit?

Would you agree that where is no gun present, there is no gun related accident?

Would you agree that killing (over material matter) is inappropriate?

In my perception you do agree that (at least some of) the people around you are bad, violent and dangerous - potential or already criminals. If you would believe in the genuine good within all people (around you), if you would have trust in your life, you would not have to arm yourself.

You can think about me whatever pleases you - this is your prerogative. I use smileys the way I feel when writing something. I still do hold the same opinion about you, Faith and Lurch - even though the arguments and the way they are presented sometimes annoy the living crap out of me (as one can clearly notice by the way I sometimes present mine).

Faith finds a gun in her car - first thing she should have done is to take it to the next police station - *insert reasons here* - would or would you not agree? - But she keeps it, finally trades it in for food, because she feels "uncomfortable" with it. Is this the very way you call "responsible gun ownership"? I still and again listen to what she has to say about the topic, up to the point where she continued to mock me, put words in my mouth and clearly wasted my time.

I made a statement about "law abiding citizens". I said they are no criminals, because they haven't been caught "yet". I still stand for it. The police still stands for it with their policies and procedures. If they stop me and I reach for my cigarettes or ID, without letting them know - chances are I would get shot - especially in the US. No prosecution. Why do you think that is?

I still stand for everything I have said in this thread - I got carried away and seem to have offended you and others, therefore I would not rephrase it the same way, but I stand for it's content: The gun laws in the US are insufficient and they are not getting enforced enough as to prevent unnecessary killings. I am in no need of claqueurs in order to reassure my integrity on this. Yes, I have my mind already made up - I'm a lost case. Only thing you can do is to prove to the other ppl (reading this thread) and present your arguments - they are the jury. shrug

No, you don't need to love me and no, I'm not going to change my mind on gun ownership so you love me. Still I stand for my apology if I have offended you - it would be nice if you would at least stop calling me names wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:Fair enough, I'm getting frustrated and annoyed, and yes I shouldn't be calling you names. So I apologize for that.

I'm not trying to change your mind on gun control, but stop trying to change mine! My stance all along has been about the underlying root of where this violence is coming from. And yes, IMHO, if you (the collective you, not you specifically) can't agree with that, then I will stick to my (admittedly juvenile) name-calling cause that's just plain dumb if you can't agree that people need to start being nicer to each other. I'm not going to answer the questions you posed at the start of your post because I think you're failing to see the forest for the trees.

As far as your smilie thing, I get it, I really do. But half the time your smilies aren't coinciding with what you are actually saying, and it seems really hypocritical. That's what I (and I think faith as well) was trying to point out.

Ok, sorry. Now we can get back on topic.

Regarding faith's issue in finding a gun in her car....you're right, it would have been great for her to take it to the police. But I also recognize the extenuating circumstances she was in, and I'm not going to judge her for that. And she wasn't the owner of the gun, I don't attribute her specific way of handling is as "responsible gun ownership." I think whoever left it in her car to begin with is the person we can attack as being irresponsible with their gun (which she identified I believe as a criminal anyhow, who have nothing to do with the responsible gun ownership group of people).


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:What if the gun Faith found was previously used in a homicide?

What if the gun Faith traded in for food was later used in a homicide?



Two wrongs do not make a right. I hope she learned something, but gained the impression from her arguments and the way she presented them, that in fact she hasn't...



You can't change my mind on gun control - as I said, I'm a lost case in this - but you can tell the "jury" and let them decide for themselves.



No where I disagreed that ppl need to be nicer to each other. Personally I try to be nice to people, but often can't find the right approach - I do that up to the point where they (intentionally) hurt me. And even then I try to discern and find my center, because I hold responsibility for my actions, anger and rage. Which is why I apologised. But when it comes to the trees and the forest, I really need to give back your compliment wink



[edited]


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pounce
pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...
Member Since: 10th Jan 2003
Total posts: 9831
Posted:I'm done. You think I don't listen to what you're saying and I think you don't listen to what I'm saying. I'm not trying to change your mind (it'd be nice, admittedly, but that's not my underlying intent). I'm frustrated because I feel like you never actually hear what I'm saying. So I'm done. No offense, but I can't discuss this with you anymore.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You're right... I have to repeat my apology and thank you for the lesson. Re-reading my posts, looking at the smileys - they often don't match.



As nice as I can be, I can get nasty in discussions...



Herewith I apply for a break off this thread. I guess I have made my point a few times - no need to repeat it over and over and therefore hurt the topic.



Thanks for reading, thanks for participating and the patience.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1180939066)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by:

I made a statement about "law abiding citizens". I said they are no criminals, because they haven't been caught "yet". I still stand for it. The police still stands for it with their policies and procedures. If they stop me and I reach for my cigarettes or ID, without letting them know - chances are I would get shot - especially in the US. No prosecution. Why do you think that is?



That is just blatently untrue. Have you *ever* been shot by a police officer? Somehow I doubt it. And if you haven't it's not because you told them every little thing you did in front of them. People who get shot while reaching for ID get shot because they do something stupid, aggressive, and directly against the orders they're being given. What do you want them to do? assume you're always going for a wallet? That is how they get killed. There are *very* strict procedures that lead up to deadly force for police officers. I'm sorry but you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about on that one.

You *are* innocent until proven guilty in this country. There are no hums and haws about it, you're not a criminal until you're proven a criminal.

 Written by:

You disagree that the arms industry is causing human suffering and you disagree that by purchasing a gun, the arms industry is making profit?



That's just hillarious. Did you even look at that list you just linked? Lets examine America's top "arms industry" leaders...

#1 AAI: I'll give you they are a direct and pure weapons maker, but no civilian deals with them

#2 BAE: A subsidiary of a UK based company.. hmmmm....

#3 Boeing.. You better not be flying on any 707's or 747's, they're an arms leader!

#4 Carlyle Group: a private investment firm dealing in real estate, venture & growth capital etc etc... horrible how they kill all those people rolleyes

#5 Colt: FINALLY! a gun maker, too bad the majority of their profit comes from military, not civilian sales...

#6 General Atomics: Nuclear physics and defense contractor.. no civilian dealings going on there

#7 GE: Uh oh! better not buy lightblubs


 Written by:

Would you agree that where is no gun present, there is no gun related accident?



Would you agree that a violent crime can be stopped through the use (not nessecarily discharge) of a firearm?

You never even touched the comments I made about you being the one furthering their "dark" image and negative sterotypes. Is it too hard to accept that the reason guns are so "evil" is because people like you have tried everything they can to suck everything good away from them?

Let me relate a story to you from a blog of a female with a carry permit. See if you can pick out the ignorance and sheer stupidity and lack of logic in the following..

Picture a ladies room in a large office building setting. As I am washing my hands a vague acquaintance used the basin next to me and met my eyes in the mirror.

"You have some kids, right?" she asked.
"Yes I do," I said and I joyfully told her their names and ages.
She faced me full on and said, "I cannot believe you have guns in your house with little ones! I don't think you are a good mother or are setting a good example."

Oh the nerve!

While I momentarily processed the shock and wondered how she knew I carried a gun, I felt the need to defend myself.

"Wait a minute, you have no right nor reason to say such a thing..." and she cut me off.
"Your children are going to die. Guns kill children, don't you know that?"
"GUNS do not kill children, nor people. Guns are inanimate objects that can only act when reacted upon. PEOPLE kill people and in my house I am the last line of defense between my children and someone who wants to harm them or me. You have it all wrong!"
"You are a very bad parent," she said "and one day I am going to read about one of your children getting shot in your home or worse, your children using your guns to kill someone else."

All right - game on!

"Wait," I said. "You have steak knives in your house, right?"
"What does that have to do with anything," she asked.
"You have steak knives, pool chemicals, scissors...things like that. And what do you tell your children when they reach for chemicals or knives? You tell them, NO! You safeguard and put them away from their reach. You counsel them that those items are for adult use only, right?"

She just stared at me.
"It's not the same thing," she protested. "Those items are not like guns..."
"Ever read the label on your pool chemicals," I countered. "That stuff will kill ya. And steak knives, butcher knife, paring knife? Come on...Scissors? You can do some damage with those items right? But you have to PICK THEM UP AND USE THEM!"

"No," she said. "My children aren't allowed to use knives, it's not the same thing..."
"My children aren't allowed to use my guns, now let's be fair here."


...

I also encountered some bias in the neighborhood. Now as a working mom and an Executive I have no time nor patience to play the "subdivision popularity" game. I just don't care. My kids don't get invited to birthday parties or playdates? No worries. My spouse and I get left out of the block party? No problem. My home is my priority; as long as my trashcans are not visible and my grass stays cut, all is right between me and the homeowners association. Or so I thought.

One early evening on a weekend the doorbell rang. Hoping for Ed McMahon and a big check from Publisher's Clearing House I opened the door. Nope, no Ed. But "Mrs. Kravitz," our neighborhood know-it-all was standing before me; all 5-feet 4 inches of neighborhood authority.

"Hello there, sorry to bother you," she smiled.
"Sure no problem," I said wondering what the hell she could want.
"I was hoping I could set up a playdate for my little Madison and your child one day next week. It's time we got to know each other...blah blah blah..."
"Uhhh...sure. I mean my husband handles their schedules so let me check with him, but I think it will be ok." I truly stammered here; setting up a "schedule" in which children are to formally gather and play seems so odd to me. Just get together in someone's yard and go for it!
"Can I ask you a few questions? I mean we don't know each other yet and I just would like to know a little about the families where Madison goes to play," she said.
Ok, seems fair enough, I thought.
Some perfunctory questions; what did I do, where did I work, where did we move from, what did my children usually snack on - yadda yadda yadda.
And then...
"Do you have guns in your home?" She was totally serious.
"Excuse me," I asked, not sure I heard her correctly.
"Well actually," she said, "I noticed your husband's hunting sticker on his car. Does he keep guns in the house? Gosh, doesn't that just irk you?" Again she was totally serious.
While I toyed with giving her the standard "None of your business" response I decided to meet a dumb question with a completely honest answer.
"Actually, we both have guns. We both have permits to carry. Why would you ask?"
Her face changed immediately and she even backed away from me into the door frame.

She backed away from me...like I was sick with scurvy!

"OK, well nevermind. We don't need to set anything up," she said. "I never let Madison go where there are guns around, it is unsafe. She won't be playing over here."
"Are you kidding," I asked. "What does that have to do with anything? It's not like we leave them around or in the middle of their playroom. Give me a break."
"No, we won't be coming over. And I will tell the other moms that your house is unsafe. There are a few other gun owners in the neighborhood and we don't associate with them either..."

Won't associate with? What are we, lepers?


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, I think peace of mind comes from being more mindful. There is a lot of unpleasantness in the world, if we dwell on it, it becomes a distraction. Which is different to saying dont have compassion

pounce, the education one is tricky. Its not like we come with a manual for life. I think its about learning something like emotional intelligence and how to have control over our monkey brain.

How do you teach a community? I think western religions let us down in this regard because they mainly focus on teaching rules to be followed to reach heaven. They dont really teach us much about life skills, or how to get on with our neighbours or other people.

Why, in our evolution to achieve better, did we have to lose the humanity of our interconnectedness?

pounce I think we lost our interconnectedness as population sizes increased. Then it became a survival thing to be hostile towards unknown groups.

Lurch , in most countries it would be ok to say How about letting people make up their own minds as to whether or not they do or don't want guns around them? Whether or not guns are "evil" or good. But not in America. You just dont have the free will to make good decisions about guns. As your record clearly shows.

Will catch up with the rest later smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:first, as I had mentioned the whole gun thing was when I was an addict, and someone was threatening us...I personally am not fond of guns when I have someone in my house who had been violent to me.
I did not share that story to be judged but to exemplify how the illegal gun trade happens.

Yup a lot of unpleasantness in the world. I have to remember that I can't take that with me and have to let it go( like right now my car insurance is screwing me). I think learning to breathe is important smile

In my neighborhood, we got pie when we moved. We don't do that anymore but we do go an introduce ourselves to everyone.

About western religions: the focus is on being a good person and the reward is heaven, but the focus shouldn't be on the reward. Get a little bit of heaven when you are a good person, that I did good glow.

Us not having free will, do we really have to go into that again. The government is not brainwashing us. I am not a gun person, because I was not around them, but I feel very comfortable with my friends who have them. It is part of the family education.

I find it irritating that you all insist on us not having free will.

Education wise: they have motorcycle lessons, why not gun? Get certified with your weapon of choice.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith - I don't judge you, the least charge you. If I would have, I would not write this. You did something -IMO- incredibly stupid, but personally I have committed so many acts of blatant stupidity that - trust me - you find compassion.

Hence - and that is the core of the issue - gun culture in the US is so twisted, that ppl don't think enough about what a gun really is/ can be. This is so deep rooted that even if the whole world would try to tell you, you would think they are all stupid. It's systematic programming over generations and generations, much like Bavarians think that beer indeed is bread, or Indians need to nod their head like cows do.

I'm finished arguing with you, Pounce and Lurch, not because I am now convinced that guns are good, but because I want to break the cycle of accusations and name calling - which leads no-where. The only thing that I would like to ask you: If (for any reason/ in twenty years time) you change your views on gun ownership - remember this thread and rehabilitate me.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I disagree FireTom, US gun culture *is* twisted, but not in the ways that you see it. The gun culture, from legal gun owners, is actually quite stable and responsible. The view of guns from people outside of that circle is much like yours. They are un-informed however, I for instance, know exactly what a gun is, and can be. Both bad and good. You have established such a deeply rooted belief in yourself that all guns are bad, that you won't let yourself consider any other possibility. Whats worse, is that you perpetuate this belief, albeit with good intentions, to others, and put us down when we try to defend ourselves.

I know guns can kill people, I know I could easily have an accident with my firearm that could end my life, or someone around me. I counter that with intelligence, and discipline. I also know that one day that gun may save my life. I certainly hope that that day never comes, but it may, and I would like to be prepaired for it. You may call it paranoia if you want, but I just call it responsible.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:No I know exactly what a gun is, and that is why I got it out of the house because once the outside threat on my life was gone I needed to think about the domestic violence and drug addiction. The two together made me sure that I needed that gun out of the house because I did not want to be a statistic. I can take a punch and wrestle a knife but even being pistolwhipped hurts, so no gun for me.
I am comfortable around my other friends with guns because they are responsible gun owners, the ex was not. We weren't even sure if it worked because someone tried to convert it and all. But my other friends know their weapons and know when and where they should have them. I do not fear for my safety around them.
Yes, we were part of the problem. But that's how easy anyone can be part of the problem. Our gun served it's purpose and then we let it go like it came into our lives. Legal guns IMO are not often the problem.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi faith, its true be a good person and the reward is heaven. But I dont see how that teaches to us how get on with other people, especially people from other cultures. Western religion seems to more about providing fish, rather than teaching people how to fish. Im also sure that the world is a better place since I up guns and motor bikes.

faith, unfortunately legal guns are also part of the problem. All the evidence suggests that keeping a gun is strongly associated with an increased risk of homicide.

FireTom, indeed beer is food wink You make a good summary.

Lurch, I dont think its good enough to say just in case that one day that gun may save my life. That doesnt really justify anything. Id call it paranoia because all the evidence suggests that keeping a gun results in an increased risk of homicide. All the evidence suggests the risk of keeping a firearm outweigh the potential benefits. There is no real evidence to suggest that there is a protective effect of keeping a gun. So its highly probable that if you keep a gun then someone will be killed. There is a fair chance that that person will be a friend or relative. So why take that risk? Why keep a gun?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Statistically speaking, I'm probably more likely to get a horrifying burn from spinning fire than to hurt myself or someone else with my gun.



One of the key points behind this thread, is that I shouldn't need to justify anything. "All the evidence" doesn't suggest squat, if you're referring to Kellermann's research than you should remember what I've been saying about his work, his initial research involved one county, the others involved areas that are all notoriously high in crime. At the very least it should be questioned whether or not this model can be extracted to be considered reliable for an entire nation.



You're right in that I haven't dug up "peer reviewed" scientific work on the protective benefits of guns, however if even a fraction of the numbers of polled people were accurate the protective aspect far outweighs the detrimental.



It's highly probably that if I keep a gun someone will be killed? Since when? FireTom estimated 200,000,000 guns in the US, there are what, about ~8,000 murders with guns in a year give or take, thats about a 0.004% chance of my gun killing someone. Even if my numbers are off, as long as they're vaguely accurate it should get my point across. People have grossly over-reacted to the "evil" side of guns.



Why would I keep my guns? Why would I keep spinning fire? You're in a community that does an insanely dangerous 'sport' for fun, why would you take that risk? What makes you want to attach kevlar wicks to chains, soak them in fuel, light them on fire and then spin them around your body. I don't know about you but that sounds a lot more insane than having a gun and going to the range every once in awhile.



*edit*



A second point to that analogy, how would you feel if someone told you you couldn't spin anymore, and you had to hand over your chains because a few people, that have absolutely no relation to you, have injured themselves and others by spinning inappropriately?

EDITED_BY: Lurch (1181109731)


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