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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Sorry OWD I can't really do much better than I've already posted at the moment.. I'll look more tomorrow, but all I can seem to find right now is that "assault weapons" account for less than 1% of crimes. That applies to far more than just Class 3 weapons.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by : US national library of medicine ~1998


RESULTS: During the one-year study period, 88,649 firearm deaths were reported. Overall firearm mortality rates are five to six times higher in HI and UMI countries in the Americas (12.72) than in Europe (2.17), or Oceania (2.57) and 95 times higher than in Asia (0.13).

The rate of firearm deaths in the United States (14.24 per 100,000) exceeds that of its economic counterparts (1.76) eightfold and that of UMI countries (9.69) by a factor of 1.5.

Suicide and homicide contribute equally to total firearm deaths in the US, but most firearm deaths are suicides (71%) in HI countries and homicides (72%) in UMI countries.

CONCLUSIONS: Firearm death rates vary markedly throughout the industrialized world. Further research to identify risk factors associated with these variations may help improve prevention efforts.



 Written by : www.gun-control-network.org


In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day. (Source: Hoyert DL, Arias E, Smith BL, Murphy SL, Kochanek, KD. Deaths: Final Data for 1999. National Vital Statistics Reports. 2001;49



 Written by : library.med.utah.edu



Gunshot wounds inpact severely on the criminal justice as well as health care systems. Some basic statistics are important in understanding the magnitude and severity of the social and economic burden to the U.S.

In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death:

Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)

This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S.

The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, but has since declined steadily.(CDC, 2001) However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2004).

The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S.

Many of these injuries require hospitalization and trauma care. A 1994 study revealed the cost per injury requiring admission to a trauma center was over $14,000.

The cumulative lifetime cost in 1985 for gunshot wounds was estimated to be $911 million, with $13.4 billion in lost productivity. (Mock et al, 1994) The cost of the improper use of firearms in Canada was estimated at $6.6 billion per year. (Chapdelaine and Maurice, 1996)

The rates of firearms deaths in the U.S. vary significantly by race and sex. The U.S. national average was 10.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2001. The highest rate was 34.5/100,000 for African-American males, more than double the rate of 16.3/100,000 for white males and well above the rate of 2.7/100,000 for white females. (CDC, 2004)



http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/70ViolentDeath.cfm

 Written by : childrentrendsdatabank

Firearms were the instrument of death in over 80 percent of teen homicides and about half of teen suicides in 2004.2

While almost one in four youth firearm injuries results in death, nonfirearm injuries result in death in only one out of every 760 cases.3




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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Your statistics are just incorrect, Lurch. shrug and if you'd quote your sources we could at least verify that you're not posting them here on purpose, as to prove your (pointless) point.

It's about gun laws and legislation regarding gun (ab)use, re-read the OP. "Gun laws" include the (legal) acquisition of guns and their effect (gun accidents, murder and suicide committed with guns). Correct me if you think I'm wrong. However: This is about "gun laws", not "car accidents" wink

You statements regarding microstamping and other measures re. gun control:

mircostamping - so it would encourage the use of revolvers? 6 bullets and then reload? Would diminish the rate of bullets fired, decrease the amount of casualties.
2nd hand sales and background checks - what about the sale of guns to strangers? I'm certain they make the majority of 2nd hand sales.
Ballistic fingerprinting - also human fingerprints change over time (injuries), still they have certain similarities that trace them back to their bearer.

 Written by : Lurch

Correct me if I'm wrong but most of the guns in Columbine were stolen were they not?



Correction:

 Written by : google it yourself then wink

"Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers.

Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase."

Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500."



 Written by : Lurch

I definitely think there is a point to it. Criminals don't follow gun laws, they don't acquire their weapons through legal means, so can anyone explain to me how further restricting the guns that aren't hurting anyone is going to help?



 Written by : CBS March 2008

(...) new research from the U.S. Treasury Department indicates that more than half of the guns used in crimes across America are purchased from licensed gun dealers and then resold on the black market, reports CBS News Correspondent Bob Orr.

"Stolen guns are not the only source and in many cases they're not the predominant source of guns used in crimes," said Treasury Department Undersecretary James Johnson.

Legitimate buyers purchase guns and resell them, at a profit, to criminals. This is known as straw purchasing. Nearly half of the illegal guns end up in the hands of people under 24 years of age.

Said John Magan, Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: "Many times the investigation shows that the person with the felony conviction, who cannot have a firearm, is standing right next to the person in the gun store when it's purchased."



Pathetic, I know but that 'dubious' reality is just proving you wrong on all accounts....... most of the stuff I'm posting here is not even from politically biased sources anymore.....

shrug


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, you present compelling statistics, from a wide range of sources. Its a pity people cannot see the logic in the data.

At least the United Nations has recognised that there are serious crime problems in some nations which are primarily due to the ready availability of privately owned guns and nowhere is more so than in the United States (net).

Lurch, the objective is to reduce gun violence.

So, American's don't like 'nanny state' governments. Which is why America has such a problem with gun violence. Time to grow up, and accept responsibility for the carnage guns cause. Because its apparent that Americans are not prepared to do anything to reduce gun violence in the community unless it involves a shoot out in so-called self-defense. Which at best, is a contradiction.

 Written by Lurch

I disagree, the American gun culture doesn't support that type of activity at all. We condemn it completely, and rightfully so.



Kids would not be able to buy semi automatics if the American gun culture did not support illegal gun sales.

 Written by Lurch

I do find it a little ironic that the person you quoted carries the family name of Mauser, one of the most influential gun makers in history.



That is a such a petty callous comment to make about someone whos son was killed in the Columbine High School massacre. Incidentally, my family name is also the same as a famous brand of rifle.

 Written by Lurch

Really? You think it's obvious that the legal civilians do the majority of the violence?



Legal civilians are the ones who suffer the most from gun violence. This violence is self-inflicted through accidents, suicide and domestic violence. Ironically, these guns are usually brought for self-defense.

 Written by Lurch

Back until about the 70's when the peace craze took off and guns suddenly started to become taboo. Less responsible interaction with a potentially dangerous product brought about obvious results. It conveniently coincides with an increase in violence.



The call for peace took off in the70s in response to the stupidity of the Vietnam war. Ironically, America lost the Vietnam War despite having a vastly superior firepower.

 Written by Lurch

People like yourself have been remarkably effective at preventing people from implementing proper education programs by crying foul and saying it will never work.



The NRA has been around since 1871, and its pretty obvious that gun education has not worked in that time. Gun education will never work in the USA as long as people think they are born with the right (and therefore skill) to bear arms.

 Written by Lurch

You don't think it might be somewhat understandable to make such comments when you're threatening to take away what we believe to be a fundamental right? You'd better bet I'm going to be "selfish" and hold onto what little freedoms and rights I have with everything I have. You may not see it as a big deal but I do. Many men far better than I have died to prevent that very thing from happening.



Many men far better than I have died to prevent that very thing from happening.

What! Men died to preserve your fundamental right to selfishness? Selfishness affects the safety of your whole community. Isnt it time you looked at the big picture? You dont really have a fundamental right to bring weapons into the community. That is a privilege you take for granted. If you really wanted to do something to reduce gun violence you would support reducing the number of redundant guns in the community; not support increasing the number of semi-automatics.

 Written by Lurch

There are an estimated 1,150 accidental gun deaths a year, and what, 700,000 self defense uses is the low ball estimate out of the multiple studies? I'm sorry if it sounds cruel, but 1,000 lives is worth 700,000.. The same way you accept 40,000+ deaths by car accidents by driving.



Did you make that up or do you have a reference?

 Written by

In all honesty, as an LEO it's better for my community if I remain armed :P.



For sure, you have many skills and could be an excellent LEO. But do you have deep felt need of responsibility for the well being of the whole community?

 Written by Lurch

As for reducing violence, we need to take a deep hard look at our mass media and how they glamorize and portray violence.



Amen, especially in the United States of America.

 Written by Abigail Kohn

The idea of self-defense, community defense, has a lot to do with being a good American. Part of the attraction for a lot of American men involves identifying with those archetypes in American history, the cowboy/lawman or the citizen/soldier, who wear a gun on their hip.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:As something to ponder: Why did Mr. Nobel start his foundation?



Stone: No, the frustrating part - to me - is not that gun owners promote gun ownership with inconsistent arguments and won't surrender their guns (from my dead hands only)...



... but that otherwise sound and logic people get lost when it comes to guns and dismiss facts as 'dubious'. That's what saddens and frustrates me.



BTW - this thread seems to be pretty popular... 15600 (+) views.... almost scary eek

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1206967612)


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I think that it looks pretty good that new laws and education have reduced the gun related violence in our youth. I guess now we have to check and see if it is comprable to our the adult rates as well

I think also that it is funny that Tom put me as a welcomed contribution because it sure as anything was not always that way.

27 information filled posts, I may not get to all the points I feel are relevant to my knowledge. I got a lot of work to do this week. All the bosses are gone in my office


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ALL: I updated the OP. This thread is getting out of proportion re. the post/content rate. Ppl can't be bothered to check all 32 pages to extract useful information... please refer to the bottom of the OP and let me know what you like to see in this...

Faith: I'm not sure where you find these informations. Gun related violence in the US is on the rise again since 2005 as far as I recall the DOJ graphs. But I'm not that narrow minded... I'd welcome it if you'd contribute more *solid facts*, rather than *opinions* only... but your contribution is welcomed.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I was looking at the graphs you posted

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Cheers Tom...that's a great idea with keeping all the links i the OP. i was trying to remember Kellerman's name last night and was rather loathe to search the thread, relying instead that his name would pop into my head. I figure 500-1000 of those views are mine alone.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I'll happily include Kellermans research in the OP. His studies have drawn great criticism, so I feel compelled to display both sides of the results. PM me, I'll include it.

Please understand that at this point I have invested a great deal in research already and (at this point) face a tighter schedule... I got my house to pack up, a business to license, tax papers to sort, a residential permit to file for, packages to pack, to send to Bansheecat and my mom, transport of my Enfield from Goa to Delhi to arrange, the profit of last convention to donate, the next convention to schedule --- all this to be concluded in a weeks time or so.

Because after all that I have a pale body to tan (after 6 month in Goa)... that special person I'm looking forward to meet made the following comment: "I don't mind white skin." You get the subtle summon?


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:You're citing gun statistics from the Treasury Department??



What exactly do all those statistics show FireTom? I didn't make anything up, I've been talking about accidental deaths lately and now you post stats that obviously include homicide and suicide. Both of which are not accidents. Who's twisting words here?



 Written by :CDC

In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death:



Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)





Even if you add in the 231 'undetermined' deaths, it's still below the 1,150 I posted before. I apologize that my numbers were wrong, they were lower. Thank you for pointing that out.



 Written by

mircostamping - so it would encourage the use of revolvers? 6 bullets and then reload? Would diminish the rate of bullets fired, decrease the amount of casualties.





I'm going to have try look it up, but I don't imagine the average gun crime uses more than 6 shots anyways. Especially since the majority uses 0. (The Bureau of Justice Statistics says only 3% of people facing an armed assailant were shot)



 Written by :FT



2nd hand sales and background checks - what about the sale of guns to strangers? I'm certain they make the majority of 2nd hand sales.





Oh you're certain eh? You sure seem to have double standards for making stuff up, or.. oh, I'm sorry.. Not citing your sources..



You may want to see if you can get your hands on a copy of Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers Studies done by the DOJ (Department of Justice) and the FBI seem to be better sources for information about crime than the Treasury Department, wouldn't you say? Here, I'll give you an excerpt



 Written by :Violent Encounters

Weapon Acquisition - In the current study, the offenders' most frequently admitted law violations involved drugs, followed by weapons. Authorities often find illegal drugs and illegal guns together. Many individuals involved in various criminal activities steal, trade, swap, rent, and barter guns. However, firearms trafficking most commonly occurs with drug trafficking. Many offenders in the current study said that it was just as easy to obtain an illegal firearm as it was to obtain drugs. Many involved in drug trafficking reported that firearms were necessary for conducting business.



Thirteen of the 43 offenders readily admitted membership in street gangs connected with drug trafficking. They stated that they freely exchanged firearms within the gang and viewed them as a necessary tool not only for their criminal activities, but also for protecting their territories. None of these particular gang members obtained their weapons legally. Generally, they obtained the firearms by illegal street purchase, trade, swapping on the street, or as the proceeds of theft, such as burglaries and larcenies



[...]



Of the 33 handguns used to assault officers who participated in the current study, 32 (97%) were obtained illegally. Eighteen of these were purchased or traded from other individuals; 6 were obtained during burglaries; 4 were taken from the victim officers during the incidents of examination; 2 were stolen during larcenies; 1 was stolen during a homicide; and 1 was illegally purchased from a firearms dealer in a store (straw purchase by a female associate).








 Written by :FT

Ballistic fingerprinting - also human fingerprints change over time (injuries), still they have certain similarities that trace them back to their bearer.





Sometimes, but simply running sandpaper through the barrel will destroy those. Regardless, it doesn't help us at all if the gun is stolen, it only helps when the person who bought the gun from the dealer is the criminal.





 Written by :Stone

Kids would not be able to buy semi automatics if the American gun culture did not support illegal gun sales.





Where have I *ever* supported illegal gun sales? I'm pretty sure I've condemned them throughout, so are you actually reading what I'm saying or do you just have an image of a "pro-gun nut" in your head and are projecting on me?



 Written by :Stone

Legal civilians are the ones who suffer the most from gun violence. This violence is self-inflicted through accidents, suicide and domestic violence. Ironically, these guns are usually brought for self-defense.





Really? You still haven't cited anything to back that up. But okay, I'll go with it. Here, I'll even help you out. The CDC says 28,332 suicides in 2000. 57% involved firearms, however they also cite that the number of firearm suicides have decreased in recent years. But still, you *might* have an argument based on suicide numbers, but you have yet to counter my proposition that suicide would be better influenced by education and attacking the *cause* of the problem, not their method of execution. If someone is going to hang themselves, would you take away their rope or would you try and figure out what the problem is?



The CDC also cites 38% of all firearm deaths as homicides, which wouldn't exactly fall into the 'legal civilians suffering' at the hands of the big bad evil guns in accidents and suicides now does it? Considering a lot of crime is criminal on criminal. Are you going to argue that the 3% of 'unintentional' deaths is "most"?



 Written by :Stone

"Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers.



Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase."



Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500."





Ah, so I stand corrected. But that doesn't change that the shotguns and rifle were straw purchases (illegal) as was the other pistol from the pizza guy. If I remember correctly the Pizza guy is in jail now for selling the pistol to the boys. So basically what you're saying is that none of the purchases were legal, and all of the sellers (and buyers) should be prosecuted? I agree!



 Written by :Stone

The NRA has been around since 1871, and its pretty obvious that gun education has not worked in that time. Gun education will never work in the USA as long as people think they are born with the right (and therefore skill) to bear arms.





Really? Because random gun violence was fairly low back in the day, it seems to have really taken off when guns suddenly became "evil"



 Written by :Stone

What! Men died to preserve your fundamental right to selfishness? Selfishness affects the safety of your whole community. Isnt it time you looked at the big picture? You dont really have a fundamental right to bring weapons into the community. That is a privilege you take for granted. If you really wanted to do something to reduce gun violence you would support reducing the number of redundant guns in the community; not support increasing the number of semi-automatics.







"fundamental right to selfishness"? That's laughable. It's nice that you try so hard to make a mockery of my country and my culture. Me protecting myself and my family, and in turn my community and country is now "selfish"? Your logic is flawed though, as I *do* have a fundamental right to bring weapons into my community, the same as I have a fundamental right to use said weapons to protect myself from harm. Did you forget the "the right of the people" part of the 2nd amendment? If you really wanted to reduce the amount of gun violence you'd be fighting the criminals. Get off your moral high horse and look at the real world for once.



 Written by :Stone

Did you make that up or do you have a reference?





Nope, didn't make them up. Yup I have references, I've posted them in the past. But here, go to the CDC's page and look up accidental death rates for yourself http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html



For 2005:



Unintentional Motor Vehicle Deaths - 45,343
Unintentional Fall Deaths - 19,656
Unintentional Drownings - 3,582
Unintentional firearms deaths - 789







 Written by :Stone

For sure, you have many skills and could be an excellent LEO. But do you have deep felt need of responsibility for the well being of the whole community?





If I didn't want to improve my community I wouldn't be a cop. As I've said before, it's a multi-step process before most people become involved in gun violence, we need to focus more on stopping this at the source.

EDITED_BY: Lurch (1207025677)


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, Kellermans research has only drawn great criticism from the NRA. He started his investigations in the Emergency room, when he noticed that many of the people he was treating for gun injuries were injured by their own gun or that of a family member. And these injuries greatly outnumber the number of intruders shot by the gun of a homeowner, and therefore he determined to study whether or not this was in fact true. Which it was.



You have an Enfield hug





Lurch your last seven quotes were by me.



Will reply later

EDITED_BY: Stone (1207024879)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:My apologies Stone & FireTom, I think I fixed them, however it may change some of the context of the replies.. I tend to copy and past the quote tags a few times when I start writing, I guess I didn't notice I'd branched onto a new post in the reply

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dont worry Lurch, its not a problem. Im going to take a break.

Suggest, that not all gun violence is about fighting the criminals. You could take off the blinkers and at least consider what we are saying about other causes of gun violence, ie guns brought for self-defense causing injuries in the home.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:No doubt guns bought for self defense can cause injuries at home. This is even more pronounced with 'defense' guns because of the state that they must be in to be viable defense guns. But realistically I'm looking for ways that will both lower accidental and criminal firearm injuries, and also retain my right to have guns. I think education and training requirements is a much more feasible, and effective means of achieving that goal.

It almost seems like you guys think I don't care about pointless deaths. Believe me I do, but there are nearly 20,000 murders. Violent deaths by violent means, it's my job to help stop those, and I fully believe that it's everyones duty to prevent them, and prepare themselves to do whatever must be done when the time comes. I'm more concerned bad people violently attacking innocent people, than bad on bad, or 'innocent' people (intentionally) hurting themselves. I guess that may sound rather callous..

If you're able, but not willing to fight for your own life why would you expect me to on your behalf?


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted: Written by :FireTom


I'll happily include Kellermans research in the OP. His studies have drawn great criticism, so I feel compelled to display both sides of the results. PM me, I'll include it.




There was a slight misunderstanding with Kellerman's research in this thread. His first study ( 1986 ) was flawed and was attacked and discredited based on those flaws however he took those criticisms to heart and redid the study 1n 1993...and got it right that time.

The misunderstanding I was referring to was a failure to reference just which Kellerman study was being discussed. I saw it happening, but for some unexplained reason, kept my mouth shut.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:did everyone else miss the fact that the graph Tom posted showed that firearm related deaths in use is going down

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yep...I noticed it but still the rate of injuries and deaths related to firearms is significantly higher that that of the gun controlled countries most of us are posting from. We could compare the US to a country i used to visit frequently, Honduras, where EVERY business (ie stores, restaurants, bars etc) where cash changes hands, has a guy with a gun. EVERY business. Also, it's reputed that every car has at least one gun in it ( if you can afford a car, you can afford a gun ) and an acceptable and very common way of making a living is to go out, get yourself a shotgun and stand on the sidewalk hoping someone who parks their car there on "your block" will hire you to guard their car.

The result...In cities, every block has a guy with a gun either standing there, or sleeping, cradling his gun, waiting for a customer. Every bank has at least three guys armed with shotguns standing outside, and at least one guy with a pistol inside. Hey, do you know how they rob banks in Honduras? Well, you get a bunch of guys lying ( with guns ) in the bed of a pickup truck. they pull up in front of a bank, sit up and open fire.

It's rather disconcerting to be walking by a bank just as a truck ( in Honduras, most vehicles are trucks ) stops outside a bank and the guards instantly go on high alert with you, the tourist , suddenly worried about being caught in the crossfire.

So there's basically no gun control in Honduras and as a result, there's a lot of shootings. Makes the US look like some sort of gun free Utopia by comparison.

And that's really what this is all about...the comparisons.


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:why? why does it have to be about comparisons. I think the graph is showing that the incident rates are going down and so the laws we have in place are in fact working. The programs are working and we jus tneed to keep moving in that direction. Look at the state laws with the largest drops and examine their gun laws and programs. Go from there

I think it's crap to compare countries. It's hard enough comparing states


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I posted this previously, on page 26.



While some are quick to point out that the law was an unqualified success since burglary declined by almost half in Oklahoma. In 1987, there were 58,333 cases; in 2000, just 31,661. However, when I think of an epidemic of burglarys, I think the cause is probably drug related. So, attributing the fall in burglaries entirely to the introduction of the Make My Day Law would seem to overlook the impact that the police had on reducing methamphetamine production in the same time frame.



Methamphetamine, the biggest drug threat to the state of Oklahoma, is available throughout Oklahoma, and its abuse is uptrending. Violence associated with the production, distribution, and abuse of meth poses a significant threat to the safety of Oklahoma's residents. Meth production is increasing in the state of Oklahoma, and lab seizures increased dramatically from the year of 1995 through 2001.



Crime in the USA fell from the mid 1980s to 2005. The NRA would have us believe this was due to a loosing of the CCW laws, but it could also be explained by Reagans drug policy war on drugs.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:faith...of course we need to compare countries and societies with different levels of gun control otherwise how could we stand by our assertions that less guns equals less people with bullets in them ?

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Faith: the number of gun related violence is on the rise again, since 2005 - proves your statement incorrect.

 Written by : Lurch

What exactly do all those statistics show FireTom?



These numbers show how high the rate of deaths and accidents involving firearms in the US (and worldwide) really are. I'm not limiting myself and this thread to "accidental" casualties.

Other than that I don't trust any of your numbers at all, as long as you don't quote your sources. "I think" and "I imagine", "I guess" and "I would bet" are no consistent arguments but mere opinion (I can't keep you from posting your opinion just ask you not to make it appear as fact).

 Written by : Lurch

Oh you're certain eh? You sure seem to have double standards for making stuff up, or.. oh, I'm sorry.. Not citing your sources..



(sigh) Quod licet jovis, non licet bovis... umm

I posted the CBS article (deriving from the Treasury Department study) re. the number of legally purchased handguns ending up in criminal hands. You ignore this - unskilled behaviour IMNSHO. Again your not quoting your source. Maybe I should dig out some studies and statistics from the early 1870s. to find something significant there....? wink

Handguns and suicide/ homicide: You read the publications of HSPH? As long as you haven't you have no complete background informations (As recent as 2007!)

 Written by : Lurch


 Written by : Stone



"Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers.

Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase."

Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500."



Ah, so I stand corrected. But that doesn't change that the shotguns and rifle were straw purchases (illegal) as was the other pistol from the pizza guy. If I remember correctly the Pizza guy is in jail now for selling the pistol to the boys. So basically what you're saying is that none of the purchases were legal, and all of the sellers (and buyers) should be prosecuted? I agree!



Timewaster... won't you please shift to Chat before I now google: pizza guy in jail for straw purchasing the Columbine gun? ubblol

Hence: Are you sure this quote belongs to Stone and not to me? There is a difference between "illegal (straw) purchase" and "stolen" would you not agree? However it shows that the gun laws are flawed and need correction.

To continue inconsistent: Certainly those who fail the test to become a LEO happily apply for a CCWP and then run around patrolling their county... I think they should not be allowed to carry guns.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:Many new drug laws at least in our state includes an added charge and longer mandatory sentencing if they are found with a weapon

Yes, the two are related and this is why guns are not the problem


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by :FT

These numbers show how high the rate of deaths and accidents involving firearms in the US (and worldwide) really are. I'm not limiting myself and this thread to "accidental" casualties.



Were we not just talking about accidents and suicides? You keep jumping back and forth between issues FireTom. You seem hellbent to demonize me and convince people I'm lying, but are you really listening?

 Written by :FT

I posted the CBS article (deriving from the Treasury Department study) re. the number of legally purchased handguns ending up in criminal hands. You ignore this - unskilled behavior IMNSHO. Again your not quoting your source. Maybe I should dig out some studies and statistics from the early 1870s. to find something significant there....?



Fairly sure I told you exactly where I got my information from, it's not my fault you don't have a printed copy of the same things I do. You may be able to drop an email to the FBI if you want a copy of it. That doesn't change the fact that if I'm looking for information about crime, I'm going to ask the people that deal with crime, not the treasury department. We can and have argue numbers back and forth forever, and as soon as someone (OWD) starts to argue mainly with logic you cry foul? Do you have anything other than paranoia and controversial statistics?

Time waster? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/518610.stm That took about 2 seconds to find.

There is certainly a difference between a straw purchase and a stolen gun. But they are both illegal, they both *already* have laws against them (hence illegal) and they both already have punishments. So you want to make *another* law that says the exact same thing? The laws aren't flawed, they don't need correction, the ALREADY COVER THAT.

If you think anyone with a CCW is a failed LEO than you have a lot to learn FireTom, and it's obvious how little you know about the gun culture of America.

So let me ask you this. What exactly would you like laws on? Please be specific. Should they be things that the states can decide on or should they be federal laws?

 Written by :Stone

Crime in the USA fell from the mid 1980s to 2005. The NRA would have us believe this was due to a loosing of the CCW laws, but it could also be explained by Reagans drug policy war on drugs.



If there were more arrests and a crackdown due to Reagan's Drug War, wouldn't that be shown as an increase in arrest numbers, thus an increase in statistics? See, there is a fundamental problem with any of these statistics we've been posting. Thats why they can be viewed either way. Number of arrests does not equal number of crimes.

And yes, Faith is right, just about every person crime, and most property crimes go up if there is a deadly or dangerous weapon involved.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted: Written by Lurch

If there were more arrests and a crackdown due to Reagan's Drug War, wouldn't that be shown as an increase in arrest numbers, thus an increase in statistics? See, there is a fundamental problem with any of these statistics we've been posting. Thats why they can be viewed either way. Number of arrests does not equal number of crimes.



Lurch, when I originally look up the info on Reagan's Drug War, the stats were all based around the number of people incarcerated. At the time, prisons were a bursting capacity due to the war on drugs.

The problem with statistics is people reject anything that does not fit their perceived perceptions, for example Kellermann.

Are you suggesting there is no relationship between the number of arrests and number of crimes?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted: Written by :Stone

Are you suggesting there is no relationship between the number of arrests and number of crimes?



Not at all. But arrest statistics and crime numbers need to be considered individually, and very carefully at that. Think about it, if there are 300 murdered people, but only 100 people arrested can you say there were only 100 murders? Statistically it would look like that if you're only looking at arrests and not at victims as well. (Yes FireTom, I just made those numbers up) Murders are fairly easy to count, because you generally have a corpse to go with the crime. Now think about crimes that aren't always reported, robberies, assaults, rapes. Think about the potential number of times people fought back, stopping the attack, and thus never felt the need to report it. The number of crimes may be fairly stable over a period of time, but the number of arrests can very greatly depending on the push of law enforcement.

This is common for drug trends, it tends to form a 'wave' pattern. Crime increases and then arrests increase in response. Violent crime, (and property crimes) generally follow closely behind increases in drug crime.

We aren't omniscient and omnipresent, arrests happen after the crime has already occurred, and there are more crimes than arrests. It would be scary if it was the other way around...


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:And the other thing with the drug world is that it is always changing. The primary drug in an area changes which leads to new drug dealers which leads to territory wars. These are fought by criminals with illegals guns (often in my past experience). And then the police are playing catch up because they were focusing on one group that is no longer playing a role in the drug crimes because people started using a new drug and so then it takes a while for the police to gather information that can lead to proper arrests

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:To sum it up for me:

No, I'm not suggesting to put more ppl in jail for laws and regulations that are either flawed or do not get enforced.

 Written by : Wiki

In absolute terms, the United States currently has the largest inmate population in the world, with more than 2 million[14] or more than one in a hundred adults[15] in prison and jails, even though violent crime and property crime have been declining since the 1990s according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.[16] Although the United States represents less than 5% of the world's population, over 25% of the people incarcerated around the world are housed in the American prison system. Pulitzer Prize winning author Joseph T. Hallinan wrote in his book Going Up the River: Travels in a Prison Nation, "so common is the prison experience that the federal government predicts one in eleven men will be incarcerated in his lifetime, one in four if he is black."



I would like to see the root causes of violent expression and crime - thus by improving my means of communication. Somewhere along the line I myself forget how to deal with frustration and anger. It resurfaces once in a while and I silently shake my head when I notice it (sigh).

I'm certain that I can make this world a 'better' place, first of all by accepting it the way it is and next by not falling into the same loopholes, i.e. 'to become the change'.

I would like to see

1a) limitations on the types and number of guns owned by civilians
1b) limitations on the number of ammunition owned by civilians
--> outside shooting ranges

2a) mandatory microstamping
2b) mandatory ballistic fingerprinting
2c) mandatory child locks

3a) training on the operation of arms
3b) training on their safety
3c) training on how to avoid violence
3d) training on self defence without guns

4a) thorough background checks on *all* arms purchases
4b) including a brief psychological analysis
4c) a mandatory drug test
4d) a one week waiting period

5a) harsher penalties for "straw purchases"
5b) harsher penalties for arms traders

6) and finally a federal law on how or where to keep firearms

These should be federal law, not state law.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I was looking through my Violent Encounters book the other day, and found another quotation that might be a little enlightening for you. If you must have a little background the FBI looked at 800 felonious assault on police officers, the book I have is a more in depth examination of 40 of those cases.

 Written by :Violent Encounters

When asked about the ease of obtaining firearms illegally, one offender in the current study said:

All these politicians are screaming about more gun laws, more gun laws. F--- the gun laws. I never gave a sh-- about the gun laws that are on the books, and the 8,000 new gun laws would have made absolutely, whatsoever, about me getting a gun. Why? Because I never went into a gun store or to a gun show or to a pawn shop or anyplace else where firearms were legally bought and sold and picked up a gun, ever. Because I'm a felon, I couldn't pass a background check, you know. And, that's just common sense, and I think most felons know that. I'm not going to pass a background check, and I'm not even going to try. Why? Because I can break into Joe Blow's house down the road here. And if you do your burglaries in the right places, the chances are very good, I'd say 80% or better, that these people are going to have a handgun of one form or another. You can then take that handgun and sell it privately. Of course, it's not a legal sale. Of course, it's under the table because you're probably selling it to another felon, you know, and make money off it or swap him for a better piece. But, that's the most proficient way that I've found to do it, was just break into a house where it was relatively likely they were gonna have a piece and search the motherf--- from top to bottom until you found your gun.

[...]

The investigators asked another offender if he normally purchased handguns from a store. He stated:

No, we ain't going to no store to buy them. I mean, you know, you got everybody out there doing their thing as far as being a criminal. You goy guys out there that sell drugs. Guys out there that do burglaries and all that stuff. So, there is some gun sellers out there; so when it comes down to getting the connect, it's not difficult at all. I mean, there's somebody selling guns. I mean, it's easy. I want to say it's almost easy as being able to find drugs. Somebody knows somebody who sells guns.



Now I want to express yet again, that I have no problem with cracking down on criminals with guns. The laws are already in place, however enforcement isn't everything it could be. That's due to a number of factors, but law enforcement has been steadily improving for a couple decades.

I even encourage doing background checks if you're selling a gun to a stranger. I do not think it should be a law though... So lets get to your list..

1a) I'm curious about the logic behind this. Is it because you're scared an entire collection will get stolen and falling into criminals hands? Or are you scared that the owner is going to go crazy with his stockpile? If it's the first one, why are you punishing the legal civilian out of fear of a potential crime? I can't really think of any other product off the top of my head that you're limited to a given quantity. You can own as much alcohol as you want, as many cars, as many knives.

I know it may be a strange concept to you to collect weaponry, but many people do exactly that (I believe you said you had a couple swords?) It saddens me when classic, immaculate, and even artistic antique firearms are destroyed simply because they are guns. They are a piece of history that should be treasured.

1b) I'm still not sure what the thinking behind this is. How much ammunition is too much ammunition? Who gets to decide that, or is it just going to be an arbitrary number? What about people who shoot on their private property? (yes that is perfectly legal in some cases) Ammunition is made of brass, and copper (among other things obviously), both metals that price fluctuates greatly. Ammunition prices vary greatly as well, which is why many sporting shooters tend to buy ammunition in bulk, and when prices are low.

Just as importantly, how do you expect to enforce this? Do you want to spend billions of dollars to create a nation wide/state wide database of ammunition purchasers and how much they own? What are the punishments for having too much ammunition? Are you going to require background checks each and every time someone wants to buy? How do they know that you've shot your ammunition prior to purchasing more? I guess you could require turning in your fired brass, but many ranges collect that themselves. Not to mention it's valuable scrap metal that can be sold, so I guess you'd have to create a buyback program, similar to refunds for recycling pop cans.

So are you scared people will give ammunition to criminals? Or are you worried they will use their stockpile to go on a killing spree? I've had a heck of a time trying to find numbers for shots used in crimes, This abstract is the best that I could find, stating that the average number of shots fired with a pistol were 3.2 - 3.7, and revolvers 2.3 to 2.6. Mass shootings using dozens of rounds of ammunition are extremely rare and very far between, better enforcements of other laws would take care of them far better than a law about the number of rounds you can have.

2a) I don't see reasoning behind microstamping. If guns are stolen and/or resold the track from the number becomes useless. Guns can already be identified by their fired brass, from chamber markings, extractor markings, firing pin, and breech face marks. I'm sorry, but this just sounds like another waste of taxpayers money for a feelgood law. Money that could be spent elsewhere, maybe in hiring more law enforcement? Of course you know by now I'm not a fan of being required to register my property. How are you going to impliment this in the millions of firearms already in the market? Whats to stop someone from simply removing the marks? How long do you think "hidden" marks are really going to stay secret? I could post a full on critique of the law they signed in California, but you just have to look around the internet to find more than I could ever say on it. It's foolish, and a waste.

2b) This is virtually the same as 2a. Except it's even easier to get around. After market barrels are simple to change, not to mention it's simple to alter the striations caused by the individual barrel.

2c) Pretty much any gun from the manufacturer comes with child locks these days anyways, not to mention many police stations and sheriffs offices will give them out for free.

3a-d) I have absolutely no problem with these, in fact I would encourage it. Deadly force should be an absolute last resort in self defense. But is a necessary LAST resort tool.

4a) You have yet to articulate a reason for this. I posted plenty of counters to show it's uselessness though. I encourage, and the state offers free background checks for private sales, but it should NOT be a LAW. Especially a federal law.

4b) Huh? How are you going to do a psychological test on every purchase? Federal law already has restrictions on people with mental histories, but requiring some arbitrary test? Administered by who, the gun dealer?!

4c) Well that's a bit of an invasion of privacy. "You shouldn't have anything to hide" is not an excuse either, you're just slowly working us towards a police state at this point. Should I start carrying my papers with me, and enact a curfew as well?

Do you have to submit to a drug test to buy any other product? Not that I know of.

4d) You know, I've bit my tongue about the waiting period. Many states already have this on the books, and it may indeed help prevent suicides, which is the *only* reason I overlook it. I'm sure alcohol contributes to far more suicides, and accidents than guns do, but there is no required waiting period for booze. In fact I found this rather amusing writeup..

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Cramer/alcohol.txt

5a) Thumbs up from me. I don't like illegal arms dealers.

5b) Sure thing, just as long as you keep a clear line in the distinction of legal and illegal sales, you're certainly trying to blur it with your above suggestions.

6) Why do we need another law about how to store guns? I'm already criminally and civilly liable for anything that may happen if I don't have them stored properly.

the 5's are the only ones that directly focus on criminals. And none of those should be federal laws. Remember that there enacting federal laws like that are not only going to interact with State laws, but the state constitutions. When the time comes that you're going to push for a federal prohibition on private guns, you'll be fighting virtually every states constitution and bill of rights. My own for example says:

Section 27: The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence [sic] of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Lurch







 Written by :Violent Encounters

When asked about the ease of obtaining firearms illegally, one offender in the current study said:



All these politicians are screaming about more gun laws, more gun laws. F--- the gun laws. I never gave a sh-- about the gun laws that are on the books, and the 8,000 new gun laws would have made absolutely, whatsoever, about me getting a gun. Why? Because I never went into a gun store or to a gun show or to a pawn shop or anyplace else where firearms were legally bought and sold and picked up a gun, ever. Because I'm a felon, I couldn't pass a background check, you know. And, that's just common sense, and I think most felons know that. I'm not going to pass a background check, and I'm not even going to try. Why? Because I can break into Joe Blow's house down the road here. And if you do your burglaries in the right places, the chances are very good, I'd say 80% or better, that these people are going to have a handgun of one form or another. You can then take that handgun and sell it privately. Of course, it's not a legal sale......













Agreed, that criminals do not generally buy their guns legally and hence, from that perspective, it's easy to argue that increased gun legislation will not hinder the criminals.



However, note where, in the above example, the criminal does get their gun- from breaking into any house, where there is a 80% chance of finding a gun.



That (the fact that most houses have a gun), is a consequence of the legislation.



From that perspective, looser legislation, even though criminals don't buy guns legally, nevetheless boosts the supply of weapons to them.



For example, a thief breaking into a UK house, would have nowhere near 80% chance of finding a firearm to steal in the house.



(Of course, you're right that any attempt to cut that supply will unfairly affect legal gun-owners, nevertheless, i think it's a point the anti-gun lobby will very much have in mind and so, is worth addressing)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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