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Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:point taken

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:not to bring up dead conversations and in reality crime is down in Milwaukee, even shootings and murders, but this link is an example of why we don't trust the police to necessarily serve and protect us

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=642051


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Mako


Mako

member


Total posts: 53
Posted:A dog was recently put down in the UK for biting a thief who was trying to break into the car it was in...it was declared that the car was public property?

I was faced with an assault charge 2 years ago, I was alone and grabbed late at night. I have studied Kickboxing and fought back, the attacker wanted to press charges. By English law I couldn't press charges because he hadn't actually had chance to rape/rob me. I could not run, he had grabbed me from behind, and I reacted upon instinct. Had I had a gun I would probably have used it - I was petrified, but I would have regretted it all my life if I had killed him.

The laws in England are by no means perfect, but then if we ruled the world, we would all do a better job....wouldn't we?


If a tree falls in a forest with no one to witness it...do the other trees laugh?

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Sorry guys, I was out on vacation for awhile so I've got some catching up to do...

 Written by: organic poi

I know police officers who have never used their guns throughout their entire time on the force! If these are law enforcers-people fighting crime-and they are hardly using guns, then why does any old citizen need a gun? Are 5 out of 10 houses having home invasions?



That's very true, and the large majority of home owners will *never* have to use their guns either. But you ask those police officers if they would feel safe, or even be willing to do their job at all without their sidearms and I bet most of them will say no.

 Written by:

Hunting is an entirely different story. There is a thing called the super market where people can buy meat already prepared. Killing animals in the wild simply disgusts me (as does farming animals-but at least purchase the resources if they are already present). I don't see the sport or enjoyment out of hunting-maybe if you live in a remote environment where you need to hunt to survive... but not in suburbia.



I've heard this a number of times, and pretty much always from someone who hasn't done much, if any hunting, and never killed an animal themselves. There is as much misunderstanding of the hunting community as the gun community in large. The hunters aren't out for the kill. They don't enjoy the killing part. I know many hunters who go the distance, do the entire hunt, but when it comes time to shoot they don't. It's the experience that they want. It's the ability, the techniques, the knowledge. There is a lot more respect for the animals among hunters than people from 'suburbia'. Your notion of meat is prepackages sitting on a supermarket shelf, there is no concept, and no connection between that package and the animal itself. At least the hunter has the respect to kill the animal himself. He knows exactly where that animal came from, and carries the knowledge that he is responsible for its death. You probably don't feel very bad if some of that supermarket meat goes bad, but have you ever seen a hunter lose some of his meat? It's genuine guilt and remorse.

 Written by:

However - as said - I understand what you try to indicate: Hunting as a sports is disgusting as it is completely unnecessary and I am fully on your side on the aspect of the root causes regarding (gun) violence and crime. Society needs to look deeper into the reasons and find alternate solutions.




I'm not sure if you were talking about organic's entire post, or still focused on the hunting part, but the hunting community is probably one of the safest among the gun culture. You look at the rural youth vs urban youth and examine where the gun violence is coming from. Not from the kids who grew up around guns being used responsibly (that would be the rural kids who're exposed to hunting at a young age).


Stone: You make a couple interesting points about choosing to be a victim. It's odd to me that you're placing the blame of violence on the victim and not the perpetrator. You say that if you're in a bad area you should move? Alright, I can deal with that. Why aren't you asking why the area is bad? If someone steals your property, is it your fault they took it because you didn't leave when you should have? Or is it their responsibility because they are the ones who chose to break the law and take your property? I would say blame goes both ways to a certain degree.

 Written by:

What you can point is that I consider "guns to appeal to the darker side in man"...



I still think you're half blind to the reasons people own guns FireTom. To some people, and certainly criminals it does appeal to their darker side, but not to all, and I would submit not to most. You're assuming a lot when you say things like that.

 Written by:

Every year, almost 30.000 people die from gun related accidents or violence in the US alone.

30.000 - this number might appear too big to get the whole picture, but I know you know how the loss of ONE dear person feels.... It's horror.



I know what it's like to lost close people. I even know what it's like to lose one by their own hand. My grandpa committed suicide. Not once did I blame the gun.

There are enough twisted statistics that we'll never know the true impact that guns have in preventing or stopping crime from happening. We only know that it *does* happen. Crimes are stopped on a daily basis by good people standing up for themselves, with and without firearms. Criminals are taken off the street. Accidents are a tragedy, I will not deny that, and more education is needed. Vilifying guns only makes them more appealing to the 'rebellious' youth. You may tally every death as a 'bad' death, but I don't. Those lives that are taken by someone protecting themselves and their family are honorable. You may not see it that way but the courage it takes to be able to stand strong, and do what you have to do to protect your family is immeasurable. The criminals that lose their lives in the process of committing their crimes get very little sympathy from me.

You don't see anything but hate and darkness in guns, I know I'm not going to change you of that viewpoint. But how many people die in car accidents? How many drown in swimming pools? How many die from simply falling? More than die from guns. You have to remember that most countries are the size of one of our states.

beerchug to the new people jumping into the shark pit biggrin


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I just would like to say in defense of stone, not that he needs it, but his articles on victim v. target and domestic abuse do make good points.

On the other hand, I don't worry about what I don't have. I appreciate what I have-I've worked quite hard to get where I am from the hole I was in. Positive thinking doesn't do anything. I can be feeling good and appreciating what I have but it doesn't stop someone from trying to beat or rob me. I can be happy about not losing my life or whatever, but it doesn't stop the crime and then all the work to rebuild.
Irony? I hate positive thinking. Be realistic.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Mako, rule Britannia wink

faith, thanks for showing us a different side to the gun culture in America.

Though, being realistic, Id say the power of positive thinking is also recognised in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. "It is based on the idea that how we think (cognition), how we feel (emotion), and how we act (behavior) all interact together. Specifically, our thoughts influence our feelings and our behavior. Therefore, negative and unrealistic thoughts can cause us distress and result in problems" (wiki).

Good to hear crime is down in Milwaukee. And, thanks for the link.

 Written by:

Ex-cop linked to rogue group, Prosecutors suggest 'Punishers' rumors might be true. For years, rumors of a rogue group of Milwaukee police officers known for brutalizing suspects have been circulating around the city. The group reportedly called itself the Punishers, a name that came from "The Punisher," a vigilante comic book, video game and film character, and many of its members were supposedly on hand at the Bay View party where Frank Jude Jr. was attacked in 2004.



These guys are just vigilantes, and bring the police force into disrepute. This is why I strongly object to the NRA and people carrying guns. The so-called armed citizen brigade, which is just the NRA name for vigilante cowboys. These people think that owing a gun gives them the right to enforce their own brand of bigotry on the rest of the community. And they justify themselves by saying something like he deserved to die or the consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. Read what the other leaders of the NRA have said (Fire Tom and I have both posted quotes and links).

Lurch, in many respects this conversation is dead as you are basically repeating the same old NRA myths. Though, at least you now acknowledge that the gun lobby statistics on preventing or stopping crime from happening are twisted. Mainly because John Lott fabricated them, and they have been shown to be false.

If you dont understand the victim thing then its probably because you are still confusing force (guns) with real power (who you are being as a person). Remember what retired Lt. Col. Dave Grossman said about predatory crimes of violence. The vast majority of criminals said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

As far as education goes, I dont think the NRA is setting a very good example in that regard. This site would be funny NRA spoof for Kids if it wasnt so true. Warning not for the faint hearted or humorless.

And if, as you say, most hunters enjoy the hunt but not the kill, then why dont they shoot pictures and not AKs?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:First, these cops ARE representative of much of the cops in Milwaukee. These are the ones stupid enough to get caught.

Second, they aren't cowboys. Please stop saying that. These men are bullies. They don't think owning a gun gives them power. They think the badge and uniform do. They beat someone, not shot someone.

What Lurch says is not myth, it is just something you aren't able to recognize.

Victimhood, while many make themselves targets it is not always the case. The targets are the ones that get robbed, but the target is not slumpy when it is revenge. Except behind closed doors, I am not a target. When I was in Milwaukee, I was the bouncer. You got out of hand, I tossed you out. When the boys surrounded me to beat me, it's not that I didn't see them but I don't cross the street because a crowd walks up-I live in a city. They picked me originally because they thought I was an easier target than the friend who had ripped them off.

The NRA is the same as PETA. You have some major idiots as mouthpieces but in reality the regular members do great things. The do encourage education.

Most hunters are not hunting with AKs. The hunt is the good part. The kill is just icing. Most hunters go with friends and make an event out of it. I've been hunting. I did not have a gun, but I had lots of fun. It was sort of like fishing. Half the time you don't come home with anything anyways


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:faith, if many Milwaukeeans dont trust the police and see them as white supremacist, then why do you support the NRA?

While some members of the NRA might do great things, ultimately its the leaders who are making the decisions and steering the NRA along the same bigoted, vigilante path as the as the Punishers. For example, this is what Ted Nugent said at a NRA rally:

 Written by:

Remember the Alamo! Shoot 'em!' he screamed to applause. 'To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want burglars dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead. No court case. No parole. No early release. I want 'em dead. Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot 'em. Bypass those pesky things such as court cases and just kill the "bad guys" themselves (Ted Nugent).



Whats wrong with saying cowboys? Doesnt part of the armed citizen vigilante thing come from the days of lawless frontier towns, where non-deputized Americans were within their rights to hold the bad guys at bay with the threat of deadly force?

Sure they Punishers are bullies. Just because they beat people up doesnt mean they arent hiding behind their guns, as well as their uniforms and badges. Was not Bartlett illegally trying to buy a civilian semiautomatic version of the P90 rifle, the comic book Punisher's weapon of choice?

You suggest that what Lurch says is not myth, it is just something I arent able to recognize. Perhaps you are right.

I dont support armed citizen vigilantes going around killing people because someone took their possessions, when they were too lazy to look after them properly, as Lurch has suggested.

The carry concealed weapon laws increase violence, no question. Also, the number of crime victims who successfully use firearms to defend themselves is quite small, according to the FBI (Concealed weapons, Concealed Risk).

What I do recognize is there are a number of reasons why some men need guns and become vigilantes to boost their ego. For example:

 Written by:

Men who are threatened by womens decreased dependency and increased organization often adopt an individual strategy of overconformity, compulsively acquiring masculine accoutrements, be they giant automobiles, guns, or attack-breed dogs.

The rise of fascistic masculinity prefigures systemic fascism, often in the form of vigilantism. Gun culture is steeped in vigilantism, which is steeped in military lore. Guns in this milieu transcend their practical uses and take on a powerful symbolic significance.

In the last decade, the National Rifle Association (NRA), which has always had close ties with the military, has been taken over from what are considered within the organization as moderates, that is, those whose message emphasizes peaceful, law-abiding gun use, like hunting. The NRA Board of Directors has increasingly consisted of people with an explicit right-wing and vigilante orientation (Training the White Nation).



I would suggest that if you were attacked for revenge after someone got ripped off, then there is a bit more to the story, and you are not entirely an innocent bystander. And, as you said, you could have crossed the street to avoid the confrontation. So why didnt you try to avoid the confrontation?

I dont have anything against proper hunting, as such. As they say half the fun is getting there. But if most hunters are not hunting with AKs, then why does the NRA insist that AKs and other assault weapons are necessary for hunting?



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:my goodness - this thread has to win an award for the participants to activity ratio award. (ie theres about 4 people keeping a thread alive after 20 pages and months of debate).

Good on ya guys, for stickin' to yo guns wink


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:ubblol

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:If citizens are not satisfied with their law enforcement, then they have to undertake political effort to establish law and order the accurate ways. We'd be moving backwards if we'd alternatively establish an armed militia.

Especially the US should contain a mindset in which ppl. who are not doing their job (right) should get fired a.s.a.p. Why does it work in other fields, but not in law enforcement?

Personally I do agree that hunting for food (in areas where supermarkets are providing (organic) foods/ meat) is out-of-date. Hunting for wildlife and nature conservation is a different story - it's necessary.

Lurch - instead of acknowledging that you actively hurt my feelings and instead of dispensing any form of apology for calling me an idiot, you return to vast generalisations on hunting and my personal views of guns. STOP quoting me incorrectly! STOP putting words into my mouth!

 Written by: Sunday Times

According to the July 31 report, the military "cannot fully account for about 110,000 AK-47 assault rifles, 80,000 pistols, 135,000 items of body armour and 115,000 helmets reported as issued to Iraqi forces."



The US (federal) government is completely incompetent when it comes to (gun) control to both: internationally and on their own soil.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:Oh sweet jeebuz FireTom, get over yourself. I called you an idiot for saying that you only wear a seatbelt so that you don't get a ticket. If that's true than I stand by my statement, and you should think twice before putting yourself on a pedestal and preaching about safety.

Stone: The 'twisted statistics' I was refering to goes both ways, do you not agree?

 Written by:

I dont support armed citizen vigilantes going around killing people because someone took their possessions, when they were too lazy to look after them properly, as Lurch has suggested.



I suggested no such thing, in fact I've said the direct opposite multiple times, deadly force shouldn't be used over material goods. The fact remains though, that I should be able to leave my property in my front lawn without them getting stolen. I shouldn't have to 'secure' my property at night. Are you saying that if I did 'properly take care' of my property and then defended myself I would be justified? The criminals have as much of a choice as anyone else, they choose crime because it's easier. Can't you see the absurdity of blaming the victim for the crime?That's like blaming a rape victim because they were dressed provocatively.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lurch, using force and calling people idiots does little for your cause.

 Written by:

Stone: The 'twisted statistics' I was referring to goes both ways, do you not agree?



No, John Lott fabricated his research findings.

Leaving your property on the front lawn so it can get stolen could also be considered a form of entrapment. If you dont secure your property you are not taking responsibility for it, and deserve too loose it. You keep blaming criminals for your own shortcomings. Isnt it about time you took responsibility, and stopped blaming criminals, pesky aliens or whoever for all your problems?

 Written by:

The criminals have as much of a choice as anyone else, they choose crime because it's easier.



Lurch, its easy to sit in judgment, but thats still only your opinion and you have no evidence to back up that statement. Its rather unsociable to go around shooting people because you think that there life is easier than yours is, do you not agree?


.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I NEVER said they were white supremacists. We have a great mix of ethnicity.
I've told you exactly what my lifestyle had been like. I've told you what my ex is like. I've even said you can't cross the street just because some people are walking toward you. We live in a city, crowds of people are everywhere and most don't mean a person any harm


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Stone, Tom..why do you guys have such a problem with making people responsible for their own choices ? If I leave the removable faceplate on my car stereo on, overnight, and some greasy little street criminal breaks into my car and steals it...then who's fault is it that I wake up to find my dashboard destroyed and my battery dead because said criminal left the door open and the interior lights drained my battery ?

So now I'm late for work because I had to wait for a tow truck to come and give me a jump start and I have to spend the day wondering whether my battery got enough of a charge to start the car when I need to drive home, maybe I need to buy a new battery, maybe all the places that sell batteries are closed by the time I get off work...then what ?

So I'm out time, money and grief...are you suggesting that nobody should be held responsible ? that it's "societies" problem and I'm only sharing in that problem? It's a valid argument I suppose...If you enjoy regarding everyone as victims.

I, on the other hand, don't view myself as a victim of society. I work, I buy stuff and I expect everyone else to do the same. If someone decides that it's cool to make their living by stealing my stuff then that's their problem..that they're graciously sharing with me.

Ever had your house broken into ? if so then you'll know that's it much more than about "the stuff". It's also about invasion and desecration of a person's personal sanctuary, it's about invasion of privacy, and it goes right to the heart of offending someone's sense of security in a place where they should feel most secure, their home.

Does the common criminal give a rip about your feelings in response to their actions ? heck no, otherwise they wouldn't be victimizing others for whatever reasons they choose to do so for.

Yes, you can try to rationalize being a victim of crime with sentiments like "they needed it more than I did" or view the criminal as doing something they're forced to do , hey maybe you can even shirk the responsibility off onto something abstract like fate. but in the end, had that person decided against committing the crime(s), then there's be far less victims in our world.

So is victimizing others because you feel like a victim OK then ? Locally we had one guy arrested for a string of car break ins, and his defense was..."It's not my fault, I'm a heroin addict , it's the fault of the people who owned the cars I broke into for leaving stuff where I could see it"

So what's that all about ? I hear you asking your monitors.

Basically, it's about personal responsibility, something Lurch has been stressing through this entire thread, and something US gun laws are written with in mind.


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:So you're saying we *should* protect ourselves? But we can only do so a little bit because if we use force we're now the bad guy again for hurting someone intent on hurting us?

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes, in a nutshell I'm saying use as much force as necessary to protect yourself and your home/family and let's assign the blame to those who, for whatever reasons, initiate conflicts that lead to people getting seriously hurt or killed.

So if someone breaks into a house that has a sticker on the door saying "insured by Smith and Wesson" and ends up on the business end of a shotgun, then just who would be responsible for allowing that situation to develop in the first place. Certainly not the homeowner, not the store that sold him the shotgun, not the company that manufactured it. It wouldn't be anybody's fault except the housebreakers for causing that situation in the first place.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted: Written by:

Stone, Tom..why do you guys have such a problem with making people responsible for their own choices ?



Stout, I dont have any problem with people taking responsibly. Im suggesting you take responsibility.

Dont they make removable faceplates on stereos so they can be removed, and not stolen? So why didnt you remove the stereo to prevent theft? If you forgot, then thats your problem. Same if you leave your car unlocked and someone steals it, what you arent responsible? Its a crime to leave a car unlocked in my part of the world. Why didnt your car alarm go off?

Sure, Ive had stuff stolen from my home, and its not a nice feeling I agree. So the questions to ask yourself are was the house locked and secure, was the alarm on etc ? Ok, you can still get robbed, but you take responsibility by minimising the risk.

I have a friend who lived in a dodgy neighbuorhood. He thought his place would get done over when he went on holidays. So, he moved out his valuables and asked his neighbour to keep an eye on things while he was away. People broke in, and the neighbour called the cops. The cops went in the front door while the robbers went out the back. Typical, but hey he was not a victim.

Lurch, give me a break.

 Written by:

So you're saying we *should* protect ourselves? But we can only do so a little bit because if we use force we're now the bad guy again for hurting someone intent on hurting us?



You cant have it both ways. Here you are having spent a great deal of time telling us how guns are a necessity for all good citizens of America because of all the pesky crims in America. Yet you are not prepared to take the first step in crime prevention, are you? How about taking responsibility for your own property by putting it away instead of leaving it out so one of them pesky crims can get their hands on it. Maybe if you concentrated on looking after your property, instead of playing vigilante, you wouldnt need a gun.

All you guys want to do is buy guns so you can play cowboys, and avoid having to take any responsibility for looking after you own property.

faith, you seem to take everything very personally. Did I say faith said many Milwaukeeans dont trust the police and see them as white supremacists? No, I said "many Milwaukeeans dont trust the police and see them as white supremacists". I looked it up. And hey, if people are after you because someone got ripped off, then thats the reason you got in a fight.



rolleyes


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:I'm not asking for it both ways stone, I'm trying to show how hypocritical you're being.

Yes if you don't lock your car you are partially responsible if it is broken into, but by far the majority of the blame falls on the criminal. How can you possibly think otherwise? Is your common sense gone or something?

I *do* lock my house at night, I do take care of my personal property. I even have a safe. But it's not *my* fault if someone decides to rob my house. I don't want to live in a world where I have to do all of those things. I'm sorry your area is so dodgy, I wouldn't want to have to move my valuables out of my house every time I go on vacation. That is ridiculous.

Say I do take care of my property though. Say I lock my car, deadbolt and chain my front door, put my valuables in safes etc. And someone decides to break into my home regardless, and threaten me and my family. What then? Who's fault is that?

You say *I* should be the one to take the initiative and protect my property, family, and my body, yet you want to deny me my last line of defense?


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted: Written by:

I'm not asking for it both ways stone, I'm trying to show how hypocritical you're being





Lurch, of course you are asking for it both ways. You started of by saying:



 Written by:

The fact remains though, that I should be able to leave my property in my front lawn without them getting stolen. I shouldn't have to 'secure' my property at night.





Get real, we dont live in an ideal world! Isnt that your main reason for owing all them guns, protection from all them pesky crims out there just waiting to take advantage of good American citizens. Yet you give them pesky crims that advantage by not taking responsibility for your own property. You may as well give your stuff away if you are not prepared to take responsibility for securing your own property.



Common sense dictates that if you dont lock your car there is a high probability that it will get stolen. Thats why they passed that law, to ensure people lock their car cars so they wouldnt get stolen.



You car gets stolen because you couldnt be bothered locking it, so you pass the buck by blaming them pesky crims for your own mistake. "Its all their fault, I forgot to lock my car. Lets get a posse together, and fill em full of lead". Takes the blame of you, and puts it onto them pesky crims.



Hey, if you dont t want to live in a world where I have to do all of those things, then you will have to give your guns. The price for Utopia is no guns and no violence. We've been through that one.



 Written by:

Say I do take care of my property though. Say I lock my car, deadbolt and chain my front door, put my valuables in safes etc. And someone decides to break into my home regardless, and threaten me and my family. What then? Who's fault is that?





Stop fanticising, or move if it's that bad. You keep making up these ridiculous hypothetical stories where you play the hero by running around with guns blazing, saving everyone from then pesky crims. If someone really busted into your place the first thing you would probably do is shityourpants. The best thing to do would be cooperate, otherwise you would all end up dead.



 Written by:

*I* should be the one to take the initiative and protect my property, family, and my body, yet you want to deny me my last line of defense?





If guns are your last line of defense, then why do you make them out as your first line of defense. Like, dont you turn into a sheep or sumthing if you aint packing heat?









shrug wot?

EDITED_BY: Stone (1186659671)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:If you like, or think we should live in a world where you must lock everything you own up at night or have it stolen then by all means, but I would prefer not to live there.

We don't live in an ideal world, that doesn't change the fact that I shouldn't *have* to do any of that. For someone who preaches about the good of mankind and human decency this is an odd stance for you to take.

Common sense for your area, or your country may dictate that if you don't lock your car it will be stolen. I drive two cars, one I lock, the other is a soft top jeep. It's never locked, and probably one of the easiest cars in the world to hotwire. Yet it's never been stolen, or even had anything stolen out of it. Odd....

 Written by:

You car gets stolen because you couldnt be bothered locking it, so you pass the buck by blaming them pesky crims for your own mistake. "Its all their fault, I forgot to lock my car. Lets get a posse together, and fill em full of lead". Takes the blame of you, and puts it onto them pesky crims.



WHAT??

So if I were to walk up and hit you in the nose, it would be your fault because you weren't wearing a face mask? Please, come on, if someone steals my car, it's not my fault they took it. Believe it or not cars can get stolen even if the doors are locked. Who's fault is it then? The car makers? When does the blame go to the actual person comitting the crime?

 Written by:

If guns are your last line of defense, then why do you make them out as your first line of defense. Like, dont you turn into a sheep or sumthing if you aint packing heat?



I've never made them out to be a first line of defense, deadly force has always been a last resort. Have you actually read any of my posts or are you still stuck on the image of me as a cowboy gunslinger with six shooters dangling off my hips?


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Where do you get the idea that Milwaukeeans see the cops as white supremicists? Was it in the link? I must have missed that.

Yes I do take this personally. Guns have played a positive role in my life. They have put some delicious venison on my table and guns have protected me and my house. I have also explained how the NRA has helped make my community safer. Should we judge PETA on what their crazy spokepeople say? PETA is not all bad and neither is the NRA.

The point about the crowd was that you never know when your safety will be put in jeopardy. You can't cross the street every time a crowd comes near you in the city. There are bunches of people walking the streets all the time. As for the incident. I had nothing to do with the ripping off. Didn't know such things were going on until I confronted the friend. There was a reason but I didn't know there was. But that is neither here nor there


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Stone...I agree. Had I not left my faceplate on the stereo then the break in and theft wouldn't have happened. So in a way I am partially responsible for "allowing" the event ( and subsequent events ) to happen. But just how much responsibility should I actually have to bear ? IMO having audio equipment in a car is a normal thing ( contrast this with something extraordinary like leaving a wad of cash on my dashboard, therefore creating a huge temptation ) as are many other things that most of us do on our daily lives, trusting that we're not going to get ripped off.

And trust is also at the core of this issue too.

Here in Canada, even with all our gun controls, our gov't sees fit to trust me with a handgun were I to want one but they do not trust me enough to actually carry it around with me in my daily life. If I want a CCP..then I have to prove my life is in danger and then, and only then will I be issued one Latest estimates have about 50 CCP holders, in a country of 30 million, there's no such thing as open carry . Why do you suppose they don't trust me to carry a handgun around in my pocket ? Maybe they figure I'll do something stupid, maybe they're right.

OTOH, the US gov't has decided to trust their citizens with handguns...with very serious penalties ( by Canadian standards at least ) for violating that trust by using those firearms in an "irresponsible" manner. I really don't see the sentiment expressed in the title of this thread "licence to murder" anywhere in my online research on this issue. In fact, the more I look into the US and guns, the more regulations I come across ( like state bans on LCMs ) and the more convinced I become that the stereotypical image of the gun tottin', rootin' tootin' 'merican is a falsehood.

Of course I'll admit that this is a hard issue to "get a feel for" seeing as how I don't actually live in the US, and it's not really a topic I'm prepared to bring up while working with American tourists. So if I discount what I see in the movies, 'cause, hey they're the movies, and I discount obvious extremists ( on both sides ) what I'm left with is a view of an America where enough of the population wants to arm themselves and are aware of the consequences of firearm misuse.

Might this white supremacist and the NRA idea come from a misinterpretation on one of Ted Nugent's statements ? Curious, because there's a phrase at the end of the statement I'm thinking about , the one that ends with "they're way ahead of the game" that makes me question whether it actually is racist. Or is Ted just longing for a simpler lifestyle ? ( one that doesn't involve that stupid reality show he tortured us with last year )


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:ted is a simpleton...ooops I meant longs for a simpler life smile
someone posted a link with all the laws for the different states. When I checked out WI, I was surprised how complete many of the laws were.
but again much of this comes into play after the fact

I guess if you live in a not so great area you can't own anything nice smile
Still, my neighbor had his tires slashed and we live in a nice residential area populated mostly with retirees and families with small children. My neighbor is retired, nice old man.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks Lurch, you live up to *my* picture of a gunman... shrug Shoot first, never ask (yourself)...



You display a very boring two dimensional redneck approach to gun ownership and social structures. Of course you do HAVE to ignore valid and scientific research that oppose your secluded pinhole view on how the world "outside" really works. It's far easier to refer to a world painted in black and white (as in bad and good), than greyscale. It's a common psychological phenomenon of "how to identify ones self" in this world. Certainly you do have to oppose scientific studies and statistics, call them "twisted". Instead you do favour studies and statistics that lack a scientific background. Obvious.



But repetition of retarded faschist NRA presidents, does not change the facts. You claim that crime is prevented (the gun benefits) and by that outweigh the (gun) hazards.



I claim this to be an outright lie. Not a myth - a lie.



Why so? Because there is no scientific evidence backing up this (your) claim. And there will never be one. Why so? Because it's not true, because it's a lie. I am certain it would be in all the faschist US and worldwide gun owners interest to present such a study, in order to back up their demands (free gun ownership for free citizens). I am certain that all (legal) CCWP-owners and all the other (illegally) gun carrying folks would happily report all the crimes they prevented by simply flashing their guns. Therefore prove that guns do prevent at least as much crime and violence as they do cause.



But such a study never be approached and presented, even though the NRA and other organisations could easily appeal to their members to record each and every incident. Why? Because bottom line is that it's not the truth.



Guns do not prevent more crimes than they do cause - guns do cause suffering and violence. Period. It's not the gun itself, but the projection that man puts on this inanimate object. By this (in reverse) "it appeals to the darker side in man". I did and still acknowledge that some ppl should be able to legally carry guns - in high risk positions, with according training and threatened by harsh penalties if they dismiss their heightened responsibility.



Anyways, Lurch: If you are able to present a scientific study that proves your point, I will reconsider my approach. Up to this day I kindly ask you to stop promoting outright lies and faschistic paroles. I can't actively stop you and even if I would be a mod or admin of this BB I wouldn't ban you - because I have this idealistic thinking that good and the truth prevails in this world and because you disguise lies as your personal opinion (by choosing to believe these lies).



As for your claim that "criminals do have a choice" (another redneck approach) I would like to shift your attention to scientific research that is underway for over a century already. It basically tackles THE CRIMINAL MIND and it's physical/ psychological predisposition. (Apart from the previous link, I would also like to direct you to the work of Prof. Dr. Hans Markowitsch and others (pls find the Wiki-article) about neuroimaging). Unfortunately Dr. Markowitsch's book is not published yet, but in essence one could say that a criminal does have a different way of thinking and views on morality. We can clearly observe this by the atrocities committed in German concentration camps and (for more contemporary examples) in Iraq, Africa and Guantanamo Bay. Criminals do lack a certain (in)sight that others have "hardwired" in their brains - this either by (genetic) predesposition or deprivation (example: children soldiers).



Personally I can agree with the findings and approach. Criminals (like drug addicts) do need medical/ psychological assistance/ therapy. Punishment is neither able to "cure", nor to "prevent crime". (Disclaimer: Certainly I am not saying that crimes shall not be punished - yet expectations in the beneficial aspect of punishment shall be revised).



There is genetic predesposition of criminality (at least I do believe so) as much as there are socio-psychological circumstances and conditions that do make the individual favour a "criminal decision" - IMO there is not "one or the other" - but both.



Apart from the societies responsibility to supply equal opportunities to all of it's citizens, it's the individuals responsibility to demand this from his government in the first place. Further to either stop perpetuating the paranoia or to suffer the consequences. The government (IMHO) is not your friend but the institution that mediates between the public interest/ demand and the "powerful". You would not have to defend your self from any government with guns, but simply to educate the soldiers and raise their awareness enough so they do not raise arms against their civilian family members. UNfortunately there often is a certain kind of people who sign up for service, which make the challenge.



However: If you live in a bad neighborhood and can't cope with it, you got to move or actively do something about it (example: social service, organise a rally). If you neither do one or the other, than "shut the censored up" and stop playing that self sorry censored - because obviously you do enjoy living and nagging like that.



If you, Lurch, refer to swimming pools and cars, I can only say that the benefits largely outweigh the stupidity that people handle these and in regards of the environmental impact cars do have, ecological "hippies and scumbags" are doing a great job in forcing the government/ industry to step up actions. You are unable to present the same kind of evidence:



How many cars are on the streets/ how many ppl do use cars vs. how many ppl do get injured and killed/ how many cars do get abused in criminal intent/ how much suffering is caused by cars?



If you refer to my "idiocy" in choosing not to wear a seatbelt in my own car, you may also refer to my "stupidity" to choose riding a motorcycle (which has no seatbelt). But I am taking advice and will not wear no seatbelt, if other people are in the car (as a driver or passenger) - because in this moment I would become a hazard to my fellow passengers in case of an accident. Yes, you did hurt my feelings, but I am choosing not to take any more offence from you, because I do know where it comes from.



I am free (not) to choose, because I can well bear the consequences for my self and by (not) choosing so I am not actively threatening any of my fellow citizens.



Hence by owning and carrying a deadly firearm in public, you are a potential threat to society - far more than you eventually might become a benefit. By purchasing a deadly firearm you do support a lethal industry that causes global suffering. I am not saying you shall not, I am just raising awareness about what you not seem to dare to think about or even ignore.



You display the same level - if not greater - of crminal intent, if you favour to shoot someone dead over material possessions. I am not talking about self defence (where it's necessary), but to create unlikely scenarios (like having your family held hostage and to keep a loaded firearm in the house to meet this hypothetical scenario only), by that endangering your family is blatant stupidity and (to me) expresses the same (if not a greater level) of criminal intent and twisted views on morality.



To put it in simple words: it's completely bigoted. Especially if you want to keep your possessions in your front yard and expect nobody to take it. I presume at some stage you will stand behind the curtain with a loaded rifle and wait to get that sucker who dares to enter your property... wink



However, I can't expect anyone to think and act like I do, because bottom line: I myself do not think and act as others. I may have an idealised view of the world, but only to my own morals and standards....



And finally I do have to side Josh: 22 pages of explaining that water is wet and getting told that the sun is revolving around the earth... wink wink (sigh)

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1186753000)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Didn't they do a study like that in Victorian times? They would judge if someone was a criminal by the shape of their heads. They used to study dead criminal's brains and compare them to normal people who had donated their brains for research.
That didn't work out to well...

hey Lurch, we think worse than criminals smile


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, I enjoyed reading your post smile You raise some excellent points. Im not sure I totally agree with the criminal mind theory but I hear where you are coming from, and you have given us more ideas to consider.



To me, its more like man stopped evolving with the advent of guns. While guns were great for hunting and survival, they somehow led to men thinking they could solve all their problems with their guns. This doesnt work, and there are some classic examples. Like the American involvement in Vietnam, or their more recent invasion of Iraq. I mean what were the Americans thinking? You can just barge into another peoples country, put on a show of force, and expect the population to just lay down and die. This be the twisted logic of guns.



Lurch, what do you mean dont I actually read your posts?



 Written by:

Have you actually read any of my posts or are you still stuck on the image of me as a cowboy gunslinger with six shooters dangling off my hips?





I think I got the idea of you being a gunslinger cowboy when you said something like this about guns:



 Written by:

if anything the weight on your hip is a constant reminder of the responsibility you carry around with you.





Lurch, I would like to live in a world where we dont need locks. Unfortunately, this wont happen until we evolve to a level where we dont rely on guns for protection. That world relies on trust, and its difficult to foster trust in gun ridden and violent community. To move to the next level people have to learn to communicate without guns.



 Written by:

Common sense for your area, or your country may dictate that if you don't lock your car it will be stolen. I drive two cars, one I lock, the other is a soft top jeep. It's never locked, and probably one of the easiest cars in the world to hotwire. Yet it's never been stolen, or even had anything stolen out of it. Odd....





You obviously live in a low crime area, where you probably dont need a gun to protect anything. So, your whole case for having a gun for protection is unfounded, and the possibility of a home invasion as you described is minute. Another possibility is no one thinks a Jeep is worth stealing wink



 Written by:

WHAT??

So if I were to walk up and hit you in the nose, it would be your fault because you weren't wearing a face mask? Please, come on, if someone steals my car, it's not my fault they took it. Believe it or not cars can get stolen even if the doors are locked. Who's fault is it then? The car makers? When does the blame go to the actual person comitting the crime?





Lurch, if you came up and hit me on the nose Id acknowledge that I should have been alert. Its your responsibility to look after your car by locking it. I mean you keep banging on about having to have guns to protect stuff, right. So, if someone steals your car because you dont lock it (and say leave the keys in it) then sure, its your fault. This is different to someone stealing a locked car, where you have made every effort to prevent someone stealing your property.



Ok, another example. If your house gets robbed, and the insurance investigator determines you didnt secure your house before the robbery. Then they would consider you negligent, and would not pay out on your claim. As far as the criminals go, its more than likely the person committing the crimes will be caught by the authorities and sentenced by a judge. Thats not your problem. There are courts to deal with criminals.



I agree with Fire Tom. I think you want to keep your possessions in your front yard and expect nobody to take it, and stand behind the curtain with a loaded rifle and wait to get that sucker who dares to enter your property.





Stout, its fantastic you agree. Id be mighty pissed-off, and still cursing if someone ripped my stereo. How much responsibility? Good question. Enough to satisfy insurance claims. Less trust more care, I dont know. The point I was making was not to blame other people for our own mistakes. I know Im prone to this, but life works much better when I own my mistakes.



As far as US gun control laws go, I dont think its so much the US Gov't deciding to trust its citizens, as been bullied by the NRA. With guns its seems to be the NRA preventing any regulation on the sale of second hand guns at gun shows, or the sale of illegal guns by dishonest gun shop owners that is a big problem. Remember Harris and Klebold, Columbine High School massacre, acquired their semi automatic weapons through second hand sales and gun shows. The NRA are opposed to filling these loop holes.



The FBI says the CCW benefits criminal much more then average citizens, and I believe them. You also have to ask why did the NRA spend so much money to stop the assault-weapons ban being renewed? How do people having access to assault weapons (AKs and UZIs) make America a safer place?



Movies are larger than life. Re Licence to Murder, try looking up the Make My Day legislation.



As far as the NRA goes, I didnt say they were white supremacists, but I did infer it wink The NRA leaders seem to have an agenda of hate. I think it would be difficult to misinterpret Mr Ted Nugent on South Africa: "Apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal...". Ok, give him the benefit of the doubt,. Read what he says about racism, or dating or Hillary Clinton: NRA Leaders Speak Out. Here's what they say.



faith, unfortunately I judge PETA on what their crazy spokespeople say. Im sure the grassroots NRA people in your area are good for the community. Mick Beatovic, at Badger Ammo, owner a lifelong member of the NRA is a good example, but the NRA agenda has changed. In the last decade, the NRA seems to have become more militant and shifted their emphasises from law-abiding gun use like hunting, to extreme right-wing and vigilante orientation.



Im not saying everything perfect, especially in a country that promotes inequality. This could be part of the reason why your neighbour had his tires slashed. Ill paraphrase what you said. " I guess if you live in a not so great area you can't own anything nice, unless you are prepared to take responsibility for it."



And hey, while they might have judged people criminals by the shape of their heads in Victorian times, unfortunately many people today still judge people criminals by the colour of their skin.







Have a good weekend smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:I never thought my posts were so confusing, but apparently you guys aren't comprehending what I say 90% of the time.

 Written by:

Certainly you do have to oppose scientific studies and statistics, call them "twisted". Instead you do favour studies and statistics that lack a scientific background. Obvious.



Obvious? I've said that statistics have been skewed on both sides of the spectrum. I've graced that far to the middle, but you're refusing to budge. Despite any evidence or simple logic to the contrary you hold your 'scientific findings' in too high a regard.

 Written by:

You claim that crime is prevented (the gun benefits) and by that outweigh the (gun) hazards.

I claim this to be an outright lie. Not a myth - a lie.



Oh please, I've never called you a liar. That is a bit below the belt don't you think? Especially since that is not a lie, nor did I claim it to be a fact, it is an opinion. I have heard, and read many many stories about crimes prevented or stopped in the act due to guns. You seem to think these are all lies. Regardless, my idea that the benifits outweigh the potential hazards is my opinion. It would be difficult to quantify that anyways. I proposed better education and owner safety requirements, which could potentially drastically reduce accidental deaths, but that isn't good enough for you I guess.

 Written by:

But such a study never be approached and presented, even though the NRA and other organisations could easily appeal to their members to record each and every incident. Why? Because bottom line is that it's not the truth.



Actually such studies have been done, numerous times, with wildly different results with many hypothetical reasons for the discrepancy. You take those irregularities and claim that it's bad science, and instead point to 'research' that is extremely biased and controlled in such a way that there is only one predictable solution. I'm sorry but I'm not going to get into the who's research is better argument again, you should at least be willing to concede that in many cases both are flawed.

 Written by:

As for your claim that "criminals do have a choice" (another redneck approach)



Yes I know about genetic predispositions towards criminal tendencies. What makes a criminal is not purely genetic (in many cases). In some it is, but when we're discussing predisposition that isn't the case. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people with those same genetic predispositions towards violent or addictive behaviors who do not become criminals. There is always an alternative.

 Written by:

How many cars are on the streets/ how many ppl do use cars vs. how many ppl do get injured and killed/ how many cars do get abused in criminal intent/ how much suffering is caused by cars?



There are about 107 million cars in the US, give or take obviously, and nearly 200 million guns. An estimated 3.4 million injuries and 40,000+ deaths by car accident. Maybe 30,000 deaths by guns. Take into account that the majority of crimes and deaths are done by a relatively small fraction of the guns (those in criminal hands) and the differences are even more extreme.

2/3 gun deaths are attributed to Suicide or Drugs, both crimes, and both preventable through means other than gun control. Both SHOULD be confronted by examining the CAUSE of the problem, not the TOOL, used for the end result.

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you may also refer to my "stupidity" to choose riding a motorcycle (which has no seatbelt).



On the contrary, I ride myself, and don't find it the least bit hypocritical. If you were to have a seatbelt on a motorcycle you would be more at risk than without. A better comparison would be choosing not to wear a helmet on a motorcycle.

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Hence by owning and carrying a deadly firearm in public, you are a potential threat to society - far more than you eventually might become a benefit.



Not true, I challenge you to come up with an actual study showing that legal CCW carriers are more of a threat to society than a benefit. We are discussing LEGAL carry here after all, not criminals.

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You display the same level - if not greater - of crminal intent, if you favour to shoot someone dead over material possessions. I am not talking about self defence (where it's necessary), but to create unlikely scenarios (like having your family held hostage and to keep a loaded firearm in the house to meet this hypothetical scenario only), by that endangering your family is blatant stupidity and (to me) expresses the same (if not a greater level) of criminal intent and twisted views on morality.



Could you show me where I said that I agreed with shooting someone over material possessions? Because I can point out a many times were I have expressly said that I most certainly do NOT agree with that. More importantly though, it would seem that you just agreed that in some self defense situations shooting another person is necessary. I don't keep a loaded firearm in my house to fight off a hostage situation. In fact there is only one "loaded" gun in my house, and it is in a locked safe to which I have the only key. I put quotations around "loaded" because there is not a round in the chamber. You could take the gun out and pull the trigger all you want and nothing would happen. I don't keep loaded guns on my nightstand.

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To put it in simple words: it's completely bigoted. Especially if you want to keep your possessions in your front yard and expect nobody to take it. I presume at some stage you will stand behind the curtain with a loaded rifle and wait to get that sucker who dares to enter your property...



I fully admit that if I were to keep property on my front lawn it is more likely to be stolen. Just because it was unprotected and on my front lawn does not make it any less of a crime to take it however, and the criminal is no less guilty because it was "easy" to steal.

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You obviously live in a low crime area, where you probably dont need a gun to protect anything. So, your whole case for having a gun for protection is unfounded, and the possibility of a home invasion as you described is minute. Another possibility is no one thinks a Jeep is worth stealing wink



Lol, thats quite possible, however that's not the reason I don't keep it locked. I would rather have someone open the door to steal the car or things in it, than have them slash the top to get inside.

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Ok, another example. If your house gets robbed, and the insurance investigator determines you didnt secure your house before the robbery. Then they would consider you negligent, and would not pay out on your claim. As far as the criminals go, its more than likely the person committing the crimes will be caught by the authorities and sentenced by a judge. Thats not your problem. There are courts to deal with criminals.



Again, you're missing the point, yes, you are partially responsible if you don't lock your home and your belongings. But moving all your valuable property out of your house while you go on vacation is unreasonable IMHO. While the insurance company may complain, it doesn't make it any less of a crime. The criminal is just as guilty. The insurance company will argue it because they don't want to write out the settlement.

The students in Columbine got their weapons illegally. Granted it was from a dealer, but nonetheless they were sold to them illegally. More regulations won't stop that. The NRA is not just about making people safer, it's about the sport, and the hobby, or whatever you want to call it. It's about our rights, and while you may see it as barbaric or primitive to insist on keeping our rights, even at the potential cost of innocent blood, including our own, we do not.


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:I'm busy trying to load a video so I will make this quick

I know about racism-I'm half mexican and when I was younger I looked full blood. I know about people judging other people for no good reason-I dress in black mostly and people assume I'm wiccan or satanic. Oh the irony.

As for the neighborhood I am in now-It is a suburb with almost no crime in our area. Other than the tires-I can't remember the last crime. We live in nice area. Waukesha is about as safe as you get.

See PETA does good on perhaps local levels-so does the NRA, but the international perception of them is that they are both winged nuts.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Stone..I suppose you could look at the who takes responsibility as a situation specific thing also. Suppose you truly believe you've done all that's necessary to ensure the security of your belongings and someone helps themselves anyway...Then I thinking all the responsibility for the crime happening belongs with the criminal. I'm saying truly believe because different people have differing awareness levels when it comes to security needs.

Less trust, more care is a very good motto, but sometimes I find myself appreciating what i perceive to be an atmosphere of trust, and sometimes, against my better judgement, indulge in that trust with the hope I'm not underestimating the general decency of the human race. Other times I'm downright paranoid.

You don't figure it's a trust issue ? OK, it might not be, but I don't think it's an being bullied by the NRA thing, entirely, either. I won't deny the weight of their influence, but this is America, the greatest democracy on Earth we're talking about here and this leads me to reason that there's enough of the American population who wants to keep their culture intact by not repealing the second amendment and maintaining the focus that's it's up to the individual, not the government, to ensure their personal safety

And then there was a bunch more I was going to write, but now I don't need to as I find Lurch has already said basically the same things in his last post.


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