Your Privacy Settings
Our website uses cookies to personalise content, keep contents in your shopping cart and as part of the checkout experience.- Your personal information you provide will be transfered and stored as encrypted data.
- You have the ability to update and remove your personal information.
- No financial information is stored by us.
Allow cookies for
- New! We now accept ACH Payments, View Payment Options
Forums > Social Discussion > moral dilemma integrity vs burning bridges
Login/Join to Participateben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ok so ive got a bit of a moral dilemma, ive been working on a journal paper for ages which basically presents experimental data showing a fundamentally incorrect assumption present in all of the current image processing edge detection techniques . so its a fairly significant paper as such i want to publish it in the IEEE Transactions on Pattern Analysis and Machine Intelligence which is a really prestigious journal. so thats all fine and dandy i was going through the submisson process and theres a box
"I understand it is the policy of the IEEE Computer Society that all of the individuals listed as authors on this submission MUST have made a significant technical contribution to this paper."
now my supervisor has to contributed to any of the technical information in the paper, ive had to explain the contents to him on multiple occassion and he still doesnt really get it. so i sent him an email
Written by: me
I've been polishing the journal paper over the last few weeks fiddling with images and getting the words just right. I just went to submit the journal online and in the manuscript centre there are a lot of declarations about the content of the paper, the last one is
"I understand it is the policy of the IEEE Computer Society that all of the individuals listed as authors on this submission MUST have made a significant technical contribution to this paper."
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper. Having read this I feel a bit uncomfortable about putting your name on the paper and declaring that you have made a significant technical contribution, as I don't feel that I can point to any part of the paper and say that is where your contribution to the technical aspect of the paper is. What are your thoughts on this?
Cheers
Ben
Written by: him
Hi Ben,
Supervisors normally do not work on their PhD students' projects as these are the students' projects. The contributions of the supervisors normally come indirectly from project planning, guiding, meeting, discussing, reading and commenting the drafts, and so on. I believe I do have contributed to your PhD project in the past few years even though not technically working on any part of the programming.
It is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies. Please let me know your thoughts again no matter you agree or not. If you agree but the last question of IEEE journal still bothers your, you may choose to submit toanother journal.
Written by: me
I would like to publish with the IEEE due to their reputation of being a journal of very high quality, particularly in PAMI as this is where
several landmark papers such as the canny edge detector where first published.
I agree that you have contributed to my project throught the mentoring process.
"but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies."
I believe that the IEEE intends for assistence that does not contribute to the theory presented in the paper to be put in the acknowledgements section of the paper. I think in most cases that although supervisors do not work on the project they define the project based on an initial theory they have or provide strong guidance to the technical development of the theory.
I feel im in a bit of an impossible situation as i dont want to upset you by not putting your name of the paper, i also want to publish in PAMI but i dont like the idea of making a declaration regarding the content of the paper which i dont feel is true regarding to the journals criteria.
Cheers
Ben
now it presents a difficult choice if he doesnt come round (which i dont thinkk he will as its in his best interests to have his name on the paper) i can go with my moral feelings of well its my work you dont even understand it so im not putting your name on the paper, however having been my primary supervisor through my undergrad and postgrad of the course of the last 6 years i want him to give me a glowing reference when i go for grants/jobs. what would you do if you where in my shoes?
"I understand it is the policy of the IEEE Computer Society that all of the individuals listed as authors on this submission MUST have made a significant technical contribution to this paper."
now my supervisor has to contributed to any of the technical information in the paper, ive had to explain the contents to him on multiple occassion and he still doesnt really get it. so i sent him an email
Written by: me
I've been polishing the journal paper over the last few weeks fiddling with images and getting the words just right. I just went to submit the journal online and in the manuscript centre there are a lot of declarations about the content of the paper, the last one is
"I understand it is the policy of the IEEE Computer Society that all of the individuals listed as authors on this submission MUST have made a significant technical contribution to this paper."
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper. Having read this I feel a bit uncomfortable about putting your name on the paper and declaring that you have made a significant technical contribution, as I don't feel that I can point to any part of the paper and say that is where your contribution to the technical aspect of the paper is. What are your thoughts on this?
Cheers
Ben
Written by: him
Hi Ben,
Supervisors normally do not work on their PhD students' projects as these are the students' projects. The contributions of the supervisors normally come indirectly from project planning, guiding, meeting, discussing, reading and commenting the drafts, and so on. I believe I do have contributed to your PhD project in the past few years even though not technically working on any part of the programming.
It is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies. Please let me know your thoughts again no matter you agree or not. If you agree but the last question of IEEE journal still bothers your, you may choose to submit toanother journal.
Written by: me
I would like to publish with the IEEE due to their reputation of being a journal of very high quality, particularly in PAMI as this is where
several landmark papers such as the canny edge detector where first published.
I agree that you have contributed to my project throught the mentoring process.
"but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies."
I believe that the IEEE intends for assistence that does not contribute to the theory presented in the paper to be put in the acknowledgements section of the paper. I think in most cases that although supervisors do not work on the project they define the project based on an initial theory they have or provide strong guidance to the technical development of the theory.
I feel im in a bit of an impossible situation as i dont want to upset you by not putting your name of the paper, i also want to publish in PAMI but i dont like the idea of making a declaration regarding the content of the paper which i dont feel is true regarding to the journals criteria.
Cheers
Ben
now it presents a difficult choice if he doesnt come round (which i dont thinkk he will as its in his best interests to have his name on the paper) i can go with my moral feelings of well its my work you dont even understand it so im not putting your name on the paper, however having been my primary supervisor through my undergrad and postgrad of the course of the last 6 years i want him to give me a glowing reference when i go for grants/jobs. what would you do if you where in my shoes?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Delete TopicRozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Has IEEE provided a definition of what "technical contribution" means to them?
(just a clarification of wording)
(just a clarification of wording)
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted:Author responsibilies
Author Responsibilities
The IEEE outlines publication principles including authorship and author responsibilities in the IEEE Policy 6.4.1 A-Authorship, and B-Responsibilities of Manuscript Authors. Items specific, but not limited, to these principles are highlighted here:
* Authorship credit and technical contribution
* Coauthor awareness and approval of submission (or any revised version)
* Ordering of authors on manuscript
* Role of the corresponding author
* Author conduct regarding plagiarism, dual submission, previous related work, and discussion of manuscript with reviewers
* Citing the submitted paper in other relevant work under consideration for publication
* Author responsibility for obtaining written permission to use material (i.e., charts, photographs, or other graphical or textual material) copywritten by other parties
Authors are responsible for reading and adhering to these guidelines. You must withdraw your submission immediately if you are unable to comply with any of them.
Please note that you may make any necessary changes to the list of contributing authors when or if you upload a revised version. To do so, you must click the "previous" button until you reach screen 3 of the submission process.
but section 6.4.1 is missing in the link and http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_ipor...ws-Policies.pdf
doesnt have it.
im not really sure how else technical contribution can be intrepreted apart from in relation to the subject matter of the paper
Author Responsibilities
The IEEE outlines publication principles including authorship and author responsibilities in the IEEE Policy 6.4.1 A-Authorship, and B-Responsibilities of Manuscript Authors. Items specific, but not limited, to these principles are highlighted here:
* Authorship credit and technical contribution
* Coauthor awareness and approval of submission (or any revised version)
* Ordering of authors on manuscript
* Role of the corresponding author
* Author conduct regarding plagiarism, dual submission, previous related work, and discussion of manuscript with reviewers
* Citing the submitted paper in other relevant work under consideration for publication
* Author responsibility for obtaining written permission to use material (i.e., charts, photographs, or other graphical or textual material) copywritten by other parties
Authors are responsible for reading and adhering to these guidelines. You must withdraw your submission immediately if you are unable to comply with any of them.
Please note that you may make any necessary changes to the list of contributing authors when or if you upload a revised version. To do so, you must click the "previous" button until you reach screen 3 of the submission process.
but section 6.4.1 is missing in the link and http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_ipor...ws-Policies.pdf
doesnt have it.
im not really sure how else technical contribution can be intrepreted apart from in relation to the subject matter of the paper
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Delete
Posted:can you go with what your supervisor said - and perhaps put a separate acknowledgement for him at the start/end - or does that not confirm to journal guidelines?
Perhaps call up someone at the journal and ask - im sure they've had phd students submit before - so they may be able help
E.
Perhaps call up someone at the journal and ask - im sure they've had phd students submit before - so they may be able help
E.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
Deleteben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted:i wrote
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper.
he wrote
it is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies.
i think that he left out a not between students and to
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper.
he wrote
it is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies.
i think that he left out a not between students and to
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DeleteRozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
SILVER Member since Jan 2002
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Can you be 100% sure? Is there some academically recognised approach where you are able to give acknowledgements? And may this be what he is referring to? (this was my initial understanding of what you wrote and quoted).
Not meaning to be rude, but both you and he seem a little lax on the punctuation and grammar. This could lead to misunderstandings of this nature. You could ask him to clarify.
Not meaning to be rude, but both you and he seem a little lax on the punctuation and grammar. This could lead to misunderstandings of this nature. You could ask him to clarify.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: Rozi
Can you be 100% sure? Is there some academically recognised approach where you are able to give acknowledgements? And may this be what he is referring to? (this was my initial understanding of what you wrote and quoted).
Written by: me
I believe that the IEEE intends for assistence that does not contribute to the theory presented in the paper to be put in the acknowledgements section of the paper.
im pretty sure that it isnt what he is refering to as without his name on the list of authors he cant add the paper to his publications list. which he obviously wants to grow as it improves his academic credibility, that and he suggested i think about submitting it to another journal if im not comfortable with his name on the list. ill be seeing him tommorrow so i guess ill know for sure then.
Can you be 100% sure? Is there some academically recognised approach where you are able to give acknowledgements? And may this be what he is referring to? (this was my initial understanding of what you wrote and quoted).
Written by: me
I believe that the IEEE intends for assistence that does not contribute to the theory presented in the paper to be put in the acknowledgements section of the paper.
im pretty sure that it isnt what he is refering to as without his name on the list of authors he cant add the paper to his publications list. which he obviously wants to grow as it improves his academic credibility, that and he suggested i think about submitting it to another journal if im not comfortable with his name on the list. ill be seeing him tommorrow so i guess ill know for sure then.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DeleteBirgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
![Birgit]()
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Well, from what *I* know it is customary to put your supervisor's name on. Though of course noone would say it like that... just seems to be one of the conventions people keep to.
If it does anything to solve your moral problem, I suppose supervising you for 6 years, mentoring you, possibly giving you your project etc could be counted as enough contribution. I mean, most of what my supervisor does is to give me (good) ideas, get me in touch with people who could be helpful and make sure I keep on track, but then what else is he to do?
If he's ever done anything to contribute to you being able to carry out your research then I don't think you have a problem
If it does anything to solve your moral problem, I suppose supervising you for 6 years, mentoring you, possibly giving you your project etc could be counted as enough contribution. I mean, most of what my supervisor does is to give me (good) ideas, get me in touch with people who could be helpful and make sure I keep on track, but then what else is he to do?
If he's ever done anything to contribute to you being able to carry out your research then I don't think you have a problem
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Total posts: 757
SILVER Member since May 2004
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Total posts: 757
Posted:I agree with Dentrassi here, the journel may be able to help you here.
Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.
Deletecoleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
![coleman]()
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
Posted:could you have written the paper without this bloke being around for the last 6 years (notwithstanding that if he wasn't there, someone else would be)?
i think its pretty much understood that a phd student puts in most of the work on a paper of this nature - to be completely honest ben, it sounds to me less of a moral dilemma and more of a 'i did all the work so why should he get mentioned' dilemma...
as people have already said, if you are determined that you don't want to list your phd supervisor as an author of the publication of your phd paper, ring up the ieee and ask them what they think.
he should certainly be acknowledged somewhere in it though.
it may be worth reading this although you could probably have done with reading a couple of years ago.
section 2.4 is pretty relevant now though
cole. x
i think its pretty much understood that a phd student puts in most of the work on a paper of this nature - to be completely honest ben, it sounds to me less of a moral dilemma and more of a 'i did all the work so why should he get mentioned' dilemma...
as people have already said, if you are determined that you don't want to list your phd supervisor as an author of the publication of your phd paper, ring up the ieee and ask them what they think.
he should certainly be acknowledged somewhere in it though.
it may be worth reading this although you could probably have done with reading a couple of years ago.
section 2.4 is pretty relevant now though
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Posted:It's not always customary to put your supervisor's name on the paper - for instance my (second) supervisor in Music hates the idea, and almost asked to be taken off one of my papers (I don't think it's cos the work was bad 
)
My first supervisor says I should only put him on if he's made a contribution - it's up to me.
In general I put them on, because it's nice, and I don't feel it really costs me much - apart from anything else, it'll make some of my work show up when people search for them, which is probably a good thing.
I wouldn't worry particularly about the IEEE's stipulation - but then I tend to not care about things like that. They're unlikely to bust you on it or anything. I think you should decide what's reasonable for you.
It comes across (and I might be reading things that aren't there) that you don't really want the guys name on this, and the clause is a means to an end? Is that fair?
Also, as I read his reply:
- he's saying you don't have to put his name on it
- but it is good to be acknowledged
- if you feel his name ought to be on it, and you're not happy about the clause, you could look to a different journal
You can always not put him as an author, but acknowledge him in the paper.
I think you're having communication issues - anytime your reading of someone else's email has you mentally inserting 'not's, you need to sit down and talk face to face (or at least on the phone).
I don't generally feel like something like this is worth falling out with your supervisor over. Even if you have a point you want to make, there's probably more constructive ways.
)My first supervisor says I should only put him on if he's made a contribution - it's up to me.
In general I put them on, because it's nice, and I don't feel it really costs me much - apart from anything else, it'll make some of my work show up when people search for them, which is probably a good thing.
I wouldn't worry particularly about the IEEE's stipulation - but then I tend to not care about things like that. They're unlikely to bust you on it or anything. I think you should decide what's reasonable for you.
It comes across (and I might be reading things that aren't there) that you don't really want the guys name on this, and the clause is a means to an end? Is that fair?
Also, as I read his reply:
- he's saying you don't have to put his name on it
- but it is good to be acknowledged
- if you feel his name ought to be on it, and you're not happy about the clause, you could look to a different journal
You can always not put him as an author, but acknowledge him in the paper.
I think you're having communication issues - anytime your reading of someone else's email has you mentally inserting 'not's, you need to sit down and talk face to face (or at least on the phone).
I don't generally feel like something like this is worth falling out with your supervisor over. Even if you have a point you want to make, there's probably more constructive ways.
monkeys ate my brain
Deleteben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: coleman
could you have written the paper without this bloke being around for the last 6 years (notwithstanding that if he wasn't there, someone else would be)?
if it wasnt university policy that to be a postgrad you have to have a supervisor i wouldnt have one
Written by: mo-seph
I wouldn't worry particularly about the IEEE's stipulation - but then I tend to not care about things like that. They're unlikely to bust you on it or anything. I think you should decide what's reasonable for you.
It comes across (and I might be reading things that aren't there) that you don't really want the guys name on this, and the clause is a means to an end? Is that fair?
i believe that the paper is quite signifcant as it demonstrates fundamentally incorrect assumptions of existing methods, naturally ppl who do their research in these areas will be looking for more information/a way to revalidate their research. by the time the paper is published i will have moved on from the university and im worried he will get alot of questions he cant answer as a result. i know that he gets the general gist of what im doing but he doesnt understand the details at all.
could you have written the paper without this bloke being around for the last 6 years (notwithstanding that if he wasn't there, someone else would be)?
if it wasnt university policy that to be a postgrad you have to have a supervisor i wouldnt have one
Written by: mo-seph
I wouldn't worry particularly about the IEEE's stipulation - but then I tend to not care about things like that. They're unlikely to bust you on it or anything. I think you should decide what's reasonable for you.
It comes across (and I might be reading things that aren't there) that you don't really want the guys name on this, and the clause is a means to an end? Is that fair?
i believe that the paper is quite signifcant as it demonstrates fundamentally incorrect assumptions of existing methods, naturally ppl who do their research in these areas will be looking for more information/a way to revalidate their research. by the time the paper is published i will have moved on from the university and im worried he will get alot of questions he cant answer as a result. i know that he gets the general gist of what im doing but he doesnt understand the details at all.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DeleteBirgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
![Birgit]()
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Total posts: 4145
Posted: Written by: ben-ja-men
by the time the paper is published i will have moved on from the university and im worried he will get alot of questions he cant answer as a result. i know that he gets the general gist of what im doing but he doesnt understand the details at all.
Arrange for your uni email address to be kept and put it down as the "all communication to".
Would he be the only other author? Because if not, anyone else involved might get the same questions they can't answer because they've only been involved in one or two aspects of the project.
by the time the paper is published i will have moved on from the university and im worried he will get alot of questions he cant answer as a result. i know that he gets the general gist of what im doing but he doesnt understand the details at all.
Arrange for your uni email address to be kept and put it down as the "all communication to".
Would he be the only other author? Because if not, anyone else involved might get the same questions they can't answer because they've only been involved in one or two aspects of the project.
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
![Patriarch917]()
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
SILVER Member since Oct 2005
I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
Total posts: 607
Posted:Don't get bogged down in nuance and alternatives. It's fine to ask what "technical" means, and whether there are other ways to acknowledge aside from listing someone as an author. However, this is not your "moral dilemma."
Your moral dilemma, so far as I can see, is contained in the last paragraph of the first post: Are you willing to tell a lie in order to help your career?
You ask what I would do, were I in your shoes. I would not lie. Integrity is more important to me than a glowing reference.
If it were Nazis wanting to know where I were hiding my Jews, I would lie. I would lie, and be proud of it. I might even write a book. I think lies are fine things, when the situation demands it.
I don't think this situation demands it. Even if we pretend that you never get caught for this lie, it would set a bad precedent. No doubt you will be tempted to lie in order to advance your career in the future. Best to make that decision now.
My recommendation is not to sacrifice one whit of personal integrity in order to secure a glowing reference. What sort of reference do you want him to give? "This fellow is someone who will lie in order to avoid damaging his career."
Of course not. If possible, find a way to make your advisor happy and keep you in the publication, but dont consider lying about it one of the options.
Your moral dilemma, so far as I can see, is contained in the last paragraph of the first post: Are you willing to tell a lie in order to help your career?
You ask what I would do, were I in your shoes. I would not lie. Integrity is more important to me than a glowing reference.
If it were Nazis wanting to know where I were hiding my Jews, I would lie. I would lie, and be proud of it. I might even write a book. I think lies are fine things, when the situation demands it.
I don't think this situation demands it. Even if we pretend that you never get caught for this lie, it would set a bad precedent. No doubt you will be tempted to lie in order to advance your career in the future. Best to make that decision now.
My recommendation is not to sacrifice one whit of personal integrity in order to secure a glowing reference. What sort of reference do you want him to give? "This fellow is someone who will lie in order to avoid damaging his career."
Of course not. If possible, find a way to make your advisor happy and keep you in the publication, but dont consider lying about it one of the options.
Delete
Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...
Total posts: 1107
BRONZE Member since May 2003
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Austral...
Total posts: 1107
Posted:I wouldn't worry abou it; in the field of geological publications it's widely known that it's the corresponding author who did the work, the others may have only contributed a few words, in fact, one landmark paper had the wife of the writer as the first author, as an apology for a misdemeanor.
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
DeletePosted:wow - there's a serious breakdown in your relationship with your supervisor ben-ja-min...
are you trying to build a research career or to get some publications under your belt before you start looking for a job?
are you aiming to have the paper peer reviewed? my understanding of a significant paper is one that is cited in other research projects. Simple publication alone is one step in the having your research accepted journey...
either way, I sense tensions between you and your supervisor, and that you want to somehow 'show him' that you know more than he does...
EDITED_BY: Ade (1155188230)
are you trying to build a research career or to get some publications under your belt before you start looking for a job?
are you aiming to have the paper peer reviewed? my understanding of a significant paper is one that is cited in other research projects. Simple publication alone is one step in the having your research accepted journey...
either way, I sense tensions between you and your supervisor, and that you want to somehow 'show him' that you know more than he does...
EDITED_BY: Ade (1155188230)
Delete
Posted:So how did it go?
You're probably in the right here. That said, the email you sent him sounds really harsh. Poor Tien-Fu.
He seems like a pretty nice guy, surely he wouldn't punish you for a little thing like this by giving you a bad reference, assuming that he even finds out. Also, why is it so important for him to have it on his publication list? He's in a good position, head of mechatronics, and he's a good lecturer. It's not like he has anything to worry about.
On the flipside, why is it so important for you to NOT have his name on it? Would having two names suddenly mean you only get half the respect? At any rate, having the paper in the journal you want, even with his name on it, would be worth more than having it in some other journal you don't care about, wouldn't it?
Written by: ben-ja-men
i wrote
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper.
he wrote
it is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies.
i think that he left out a not between students and to
phew, that was confusing the hell out of me.
You're probably in the right here. That said, the email you sent him sounds really harsh. Poor Tien-Fu.
He seems like a pretty nice guy, surely he wouldn't punish you for a little thing like this by giving you a bad reference, assuming that he even finds out. Also, why is it so important for him to have it on his publication list? He's in a good position, head of mechatronics, and he's a good lecturer. It's not like he has anything to worry about.
On the flipside, why is it so important for you to NOT have his name on it? Would having two names suddenly mean you only get half the respect? At any rate, having the paper in the journal you want, even with his name on it, would be worth more than having it in some other journal you don't care about, wouldn't it?
Written by: ben-ja-men
i wrote
I didn't realise that this was the case; I had assumed that it was customary for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper.
he wrote
it is not customary as you mentioned for PhD students to put their supervisors name on the paper but to appreciate the supervisors' direct or indirect contributions to their PhD studies.
i think that he left out a not between students and to
phew, that was confusing the hell out of me.
Delete
Posted:Sory if I'm too late, but I have gone through a similar situation. I had an article I researched and wrote and I was faced with multiple hurdles having to do with credibility. The unfortunate problem is that you (I'm assuming) don't have your PHD yet and your atricle is profound. If it really challenges modern conventions you better believe your credibility will be challenged as well. A big piece of that will be reguarding your PHD status.
Maybe you should wait untill you have your PHD to publish your findings. Or you cut the corners and do what I did.
Article
No It wasn't an article and no I could not mention where I worked, but the message got out there. I used a personal email for comments and the coments were wonderfull.
Good luck.
Cody
Maybe you should wait untill you have your PHD to publish your findings. Or you cut the corners and do what I did.
Article
No It wasn't an article and no I could not mention where I worked, but the message got out there. I used a personal email for comments and the coments were wonderfull.
Good luck.
Cody
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005
![newgabe]()
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia
Total posts: 4030
SILVER Member since Mar 2005
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia
Total posts: 4030
Posted:I don't really see the propblem here Ben. Your supervisor has said is is *not* customary (ie you don't have to and he doesn't expect it). But an acknowledgement would be nice somewhere...fair enough.
It seems that (by assuming he has 'forgotten' to insert a *not*) you WANT him to be in conflict with you (the doctor suggests you may be projecting your anger at his lack of understanding/ability to actually help you despite his 'superior' status...???)
It seems that (by assuming he has 'forgotten' to insert a *not*) you WANT him to be in conflict with you (the doctor suggests you may be projecting your anger at his lack of understanding/ability to actually help you despite his 'superior' status...???)
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Delete
Posted:I agree with newgabe.
He's said it's *not* the usual custom to put his name on the paper just for the sake of it. He's said it *is* the usual custom to thank one's supervisor in the acknowledgements.
Sure you want to give him kudos, but if none of his ideas are in the paper then he shouldn't be accredited as a co-author.
You'll have plenty of space to lavish praise and thanks on him in the acknowledgements section of your thesis, and to cite his papers at length there, if appropriate.
This reminds me of a certain PhD supervisor in a certain astronomy department of a certain university in a certain quiet little pi$$ant white-bread fenlands town in the yoUKay. He is/was the head of the X-ray observation group, and he made it group policy that his name went on ALL papers that ANYONE in the group published. Purely to boost up his citation rate. As a consequence his career is sorted, but he's not well-liked at all and he's attracting criticism to the department.
You sure don't want anything like that happening to your super, do you? (I don't know, maybe you do but it don't seem like it from what you've posted.)
He's said it's *not* the usual custom to put his name on the paper just for the sake of it. He's said it *is* the usual custom to thank one's supervisor in the acknowledgements.
Sure you want to give him kudos, but if none of his ideas are in the paper then he shouldn't be accredited as a co-author.
You'll have plenty of space to lavish praise and thanks on him in the acknowledgements section of your thesis, and to cite his papers at length there, if appropriate.
This reminds me of a certain PhD supervisor in a certain astronomy department of a certain university in a certain quiet little pi$$ant white-bread fenlands town in the yoUKay. He is/was the head of the X-ray observation group, and he made it group policy that his name went on ALL papers that ANYONE in the group published. Purely to boost up his citation rate. As a consequence his career is sorted, but he's not well-liked at all and he's attracting criticism to the department.
You sure don't want anything like that happening to your super, do you? (I don't know, maybe you do but it don't seem like it from what you've posted.)
Delete
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted: Written by: newgabe
I don't really see the propblem here Ben. Your supervisor has said is is *not* customary (ie you don't have to and he doesn't expect it). But an acknowledgement would be nice somewhere...fair enough.
It seems that (by assuming he has 'forgotten' to insert a *not*) you WANT him to be in conflict with you (the doctor suggests you may be projecting your anger at his lack of understanding/ability to actually help you despite his 'superior' status...???)
when i had the meeting with him it was a typo in the email he did want his name on the paper, rather than burn the bridge i put his name on the paper as his assistence (well his endorsement the workshops assistence) may be required for the business i want to start next year.
basically he took a gamble on my phd topic as its outside of his field of expertise and has backed me when the department has raised questions (like me vanishing to europe for 6 months, keeping odd hours/working from home, not attending the compulsory postgrad seminars that wherent robotics based, etc, etc) so the payoff for him is getting his name on a couple of papers.
sux a bit, he acknowledges that he hasnt made a technical contribution but hes set on the idea that his name should be on there with me set as the corresponding author, i dont want to have conflict over it with him and possibly jeopardise my venture next year.
I don't really see the propblem here Ben. Your supervisor has said is is *not* customary (ie you don't have to and he doesn't expect it). But an acknowledgement would be nice somewhere...fair enough.
It seems that (by assuming he has 'forgotten' to insert a *not*) you WANT him to be in conflict with you (the doctor suggests you may be projecting your anger at his lack of understanding/ability to actually help you despite his 'superior' status...???)
when i had the meeting with him it was a typo in the email he did want his name on the paper, rather than burn the bridge i put his name on the paper as his assistence (well his endorsement the workshops assistence) may be required for the business i want to start next year.
basically he took a gamble on my phd topic as its outside of his field of expertise and has backed me when the department has raised questions (like me vanishing to europe for 6 months, keeping odd hours/working from home, not attending the compulsory postgrad seminars that wherent robotics based, etc, etc) so the payoff for him is getting his name on a couple of papers.
sux a bit, he acknowledges that he hasnt made a technical contribution but hes set on the idea that his name should be on there with me set as the corresponding author, i dont want to have conflict over it with him and possibly jeopardise my venture next year.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Deletecoleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
![coleman]()
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ben, that reads as if you were lucky to be able to actually do the thesis you wanted to in the first place - and double lucky that you had his backing with the department and thus didn't get thrown out for being slack!
he's supported you (maybe not in a strictly academic sense but supported you nonetheless) over the period of your phd and you even expect further support after you've left the university?
i think including his name on the paper as an author (which we now know is a wholly accepted way of giving someone a nod for being there for you throughout the research project), would be the least you could do.
this may well seem like a moral dilemma but i think the begging question should have been "is it wrong to exclude his name from the paper?" rather than "is it right to include it?"
cole. x
he's supported you (maybe not in a strictly academic sense but supported you nonetheless) over the period of your phd and you even expect further support after you've left the university?
i think including his name on the paper as an author (which we now know is a wholly accepted way of giving someone a nod for being there for you throughout the research project), would be the least you could do.
this may well seem like a moral dilemma but i think the begging question should have been "is it wrong to exclude his name from the paper?" rather than "is it right to include it?"
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
sketch
GOLD Member since May 2006
![sketch]()
Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom
Total posts: 431
GOLD Member since May 2006
Empirically random...
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom
Total posts: 431
Posted:im neither here nor there on this, i have had similar situations at work,
personal dilemma yes, moral, maybe not.
Written by: coleman
this may well seem like a moral dilemma but i think the begging question should have been "is it wrong to exclude his name from the paper?" rather than "is it right to include it?"
i think id agree with that, just reverse the roles and imagine the situation from his shoes.
may help / may not.
either way, ive had a small amount of interaction with edge detection and pattern analysis technologies, and am really eager to read this paper!
personal dilemma yes, moral, maybe not.
Written by: coleman
this may well seem like a moral dilemma but i think the begging question should have been "is it wrong to exclude his name from the paper?" rather than "is it right to include it?"
i think id agree with that, just reverse the roles and imagine the situation from his shoes.
may help / may not.
either way, ive had a small amount of interaction with edge detection and pattern analysis technologies, and am really eager to read this paper!
"This dark place planet Earth, orbits one star,
Come from afar, far away state of mind,
open up your third eye, black helicopters in the sky"
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted:the whole reason i choose him as my supervisor was simply because for my final year project i made up a project as there was nothing on the list that appealed and he was my supervisor for it. he allowed me to go and do my own thing, that coupled with a slight paranoia from one of my friends girlfriends having her supervisor publish her work as his own is why i choose him as my supervisor. i had a couple of offers for supervision i just needed a supervisor who i knew and trusted wouldnt publish my work as his own
after a bit more research the universitys standpoint on authorship is
Written by: Adelaide uni postgrad handbook
Authorship
In recognition that your supervisors contribute to the development of
your research by providing direction and guidance and by contributing ideas,
it is normally appropriate that they be named as co-authors in publications
providing that each has met all of the following conditions:
(i) conception and design, or analysis and interpretation of data;
(ii) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and
(iii) final approval of the version to be published.
of the conditions of being a coauthor he only meets 2 (that being he read it and found a couple of grammatical errors then said it was ok to publish) of the 3 conditions which must all be met
the support next year would be in the form of an industry project (aka we pay the university to work on it he just signs the paper work to ok it) for the university, something that the mechatronics department needs as it generates revenue and is another feather in their hat, once again his contribution would be signing the forms
after a bit more research the universitys standpoint on authorship is
Written by: Adelaide uni postgrad handbook
Authorship
In recognition that your supervisors contribute to the development of
your research by providing direction and guidance and by contributing ideas,
it is normally appropriate that they be named as co-authors in publications
providing that each has met all of the following conditions:
(i) conception and design, or analysis and interpretation of data;
(ii) drafting the article or revising it critically for important intellectual content; and
(iii) final approval of the version to be published.
of the conditions of being a coauthor he only meets 2 (that being he read it and found a couple of grammatical errors then said it was ok to publish) of the 3 conditions which must all be met
the support next year would be in the form of an industry project (aka we pay the university to work on it he just signs the paper work to ok it) for the university, something that the mechatronics department needs as it generates revenue and is another feather in their hat, once again his contribution would be signing the forms
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DeletePosted: Written by: sketch
either way, ive had a small amount of interaction with edge detection and pattern analysis technologies, and am really eager to read this paper!
Yeah man. I've had zero experience with edge detection and pattern analysis, but I'm still quite eager to read this paper!
either way, ive had a small amount of interaction with edge detection and pattern analysis technologies, and am really eager to read this paper!
Yeah man. I've had zero experience with edge detection and pattern analysis, but I'm still quite eager to read this paper!
Delete
coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
![coleman]()
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...
Total posts: 7330
Posted:warning - more weird questions coming up:
is the choice to employ the university not a moral decision as important as the one you're currently agonising over?
would the project next year exacerbate the problem that you're experiencing?
i.e. would the industry project link promote the university as an institution that specialises in your area of mechatronics, when in actuality, it doesn't actually have any professors that are qualified to teach it?
cole. x
is the choice to employ the university not a moral decision as important as the one you're currently agonising over?
would the project next year exacerbate the problem that you're experiencing?
i.e. would the industry project link promote the university as an institution that specialises in your area of mechatronics, when in actuality, it doesn't actually have any professors that are qualified to teach it?
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
![ben-ja-men]()
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
GOLD Member since Jun 2003
just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Total posts: 2474
Posted:
not really, i dont care who builds the bits, the actual intelligent part is all black boxed up in software. the part that they would be doing would be designing and building is a pruning implement, something that the workshop ppl are very capable at. they wouldnt actually have anything to do with the robot side of things as we would be using off the shelf components from http://www.robosoft.fr
the mechatronic department has only been around for 9 years, on a random aside the department is actually planning to appoint a professor at the beginning of next year. SA produces half of australias grapes which makes being SA based an advantage, that and i know the workshop ppl and have had experience with getting them to build custom hardware makes them the best candidate.
not really, i dont care who builds the bits, the actual intelligent part is all black boxed up in software. the part that they would be doing would be designing and building is a pruning implement, something that the workshop ppl are very capable at. they wouldnt actually have anything to do with the robot side of things as we would be using off the shelf components from http://www.robosoft.frthe mechatronic department has only been around for 9 years, on a random aside the department is actually planning to appoint a professor at the beginning of next year. SA produces half of australias grapes which makes being SA based an advantage, that and i know the workshop ppl and have had experience with getting them to build custom hardware makes them the best candidate.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
DeleteSimilar Topics
Using the keywords [moral dilemma integrity v* burning bridge*] we found the following similar topics.1. Forums > moral dilemma integrity vs burning bridges [26 replies]
2. Learn > Juggling > 3 Balls > rainbow bridges *help/resource
3. Learn > Rope Dart > Mr. Moustachio's Quick Reference Guide > Hand - Burning Finger - QR *help/resource
4. Forums > Burning Man 2005 [91 replies]
5. Forums > moral dilemma for the day.... [24 replies]
Show more..
© 1998 - 2018 Home of Poi Ltd,
New Zealand unless otherwise stated.
All rights reserved
*All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com.