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Forums > Social Chat > Hmmmm...obesity and Culture...a rant

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:So...I noticed a very strange thing, for me, at least today.
I can only speak from the American Culture perspective here...

PWB and I were in a restaraunt today and this family was seated at a booth near us. They were obese, to the point where I felt bad for them. One of them mentioned that the fit behind the table was way too tight.
Now, I know that for many genetics and diet have alot to do with obesity but I think our culture does not help.

Here we go...as I was sitting in the restaraunt noticing these people I also took notice of the copious amounts of food on our plates, but growing up we are taught to eat all our food because children are starving elsewhere in the world. Not only that but we have this society so hell bent on diet plans that people actually end up gaining more weight on them than losing, but they spend the money so in the corporate sense all is right in the world. Then we flaunt waif thin models and idols, making the people we first create feel bad about who they have become.
Then the things in our world are created for the less than average sized people. The average size for women in America today is a 14 (which is what Marilyn Monroe averaged, between 12 and 14, just for mental reference). Yet in the mall, most of the stores catered to the *really* petite women. Fashion does. The chairs, booths, transit seating, restroom stalls, cars..I could go on and on.

Now, I don't have personal problems using these things but I really feel for those that do, especially when it is genetic obesity.
Now, because we created these large, insecure people they feel that to be accepted they need to spend thousands on things like, "fat camp" which speaking from success percentages, does nothing really to help them in the long term or even worse it results in those gross plastic and reconstructive surgeries, removing organs and such....MY GOD!
It just seems that first we create the "demon" and then shun it.

Does this effect anyone else? It really makes me want to scream and want to cry all at the same time.

Okay...vent over...sorry and thank you for putting up with me.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:PK, sweetie, I think you misunderstood me...I meant by media and cultural standards, not personal.

Men in media have a bit more to them than women, and always have. Women get thinner and thinner, though the boobs are larger than in the 70's.

Anyway..just wanted to clarify!
(PS..can you copy me into that photo you are sending to Flash Fire? I want to blow it up into poster size and put it on my ceil...wait...did I say that? .. )


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Dawn French did this lovely documentary on big women, it was so funny and brilliant. I don't remember what it was called cos it was a while back.

I can just remember her doing these one on one skits with Kate Moss. In one they were back in the Renaissance, with Dawn ragging on Kate cos she was too skinny, and how she would never get to be an artists model looking that unhealthy.

In the other it was modern day, and I can just remember her saying something like "and there is that move in bed that fat women do. You know the one, well I heard that a skinny girl tried that once and she snapped in two... "

It was totally hilarious...


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:I kind of agree with PK though. Cos when you think about it it is just us putting the pressure on ourselves.

May I just ask - do you really think pictures of skinny women are what you should strive to look like? honestly? I'm not skinny - I think I'm the perfect weight but that's cos I love every inch of me and don't want to change. And I don't want to be skinny. I look at models with 12-year-old figures and think 'shit that's no woman! Nobody's gonna want to sleep with that!' Cos it's true.

And do you really think we teach our children to be unhealthily thin? My mother and father will tell us children honestly and bluntly if we're looking too tubby. In my family we think a bit of muscle definition, a bit of tone and strength is the sexiest thing there is. It doesn't matter if you're a size 8 or a size 16 (not sure what those are in American) but unworked muscle, huge tyres of flab and obesity are in the vast majority of cases signs of an inactive and unhealthy lifestyle and shouldn't be there. I do indeed want my children to grow into open minded compassionate adults, but I also want them to be healthy.

I thought we were all taught to eat well and exercise - to get regular check ups at the doctors and try hard at school. Does the media really reach so far as to make people want to look like the scrawny shapeless models? If so I think my naievity is really showing as I had no idea people were really affected that much by such things. The world in my head is much nicer than the one you all speak of it seems.

I have to say I'm really interested in all this as I have never really thought about it much or had any issues with my weight - this thread is a real eye-opener.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank


Kat
Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 2211
Posted:Well when you hear about people suing McD's blaming them for their obesity is ridiculous.

I know a lovely lady with thyroid problems and her weight balooned. She eats a healthy balanced diet, walks for a little while every day and treats herself to sweets and goodies. She is still overweight but is healthy and comfortable with it.

I eat like a pig and could do with eating a more balanced diet and excercising more. I'd love to be fabulously toned and Jennifer Aniston like, but I like food way too much to limit what I eat!

But blaming those who provide fast food, and the same applies to those who supply cigarettes, alcohol, drugs and even firepoi (a dangerous addiction indeed!)?? Everybody has a choice, free will.

I am probably not the only one here who has seen an obese person tucking into a big greasy feed washed down with diet fizzy drinks!Puleeze! I have little symphathy for the people who are victims of their own greed!

We are granted influenced by media / peer pressure
I have been very worried about my sister as she thinks she is fat (and wow does she have a fab and super slim figure) And why does she think she is fat? Because of redneck assholes telling her so when she is out at night. Her self-esteem in non-existant and it does not help when guys so intimidated by her cool (ie shyness) insult her by telling her she has a fat ass

The media continues to say thin =beautiful, as highlighted with the furore over Kate Winslett photos. Sophie Dahl slimmed down too!

The key is really education. Kids need to eat a healty diet and excercise more! Kids are so active usually. The only fat kids when I was in school were the lazy ones who also ate junk food noon and night. Finally some heed is been paid to diets. Read that in Scotland they are limiting amount of junk food been served. After all, how can it be healthy for kids to eat pizza, chips and burgers every day! So many families are dependent on quick convenience meals which are often unhealthy. When I was a kid, we were given 3 to 5 penny sweets if we ate all our dinner and allowed chocolate / crisps on Sundays.

Probably why I put on 2 stone in my first year in college though - all that access to chocolate, I pigged out on about 4 choccie bars a day and ate huge plates of pasta!


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats


thingeymajig
member
Location: London
Member Since: 14th Feb 2003
Total posts: 43
Posted:Originally posted by Kat:

quote:I have little symphathy for the people who are victims of their own greed!Fair enough, some people are greedy (although just to be perdantic greed = taking more than you need and not using it, and gluttony = taking more tha you need and eating it).

However, biologically we are all programmed to be greedy to varying extents. Like all animals our bodies do not know when our next meal is coming, which is why higher calorie food tastes better. Our society has progressed to having food avalable all the time, and very high calorie options available also, whereas our bodies have not caught up and are still in hunter gatherer mode.

The difference between us and animals is that we have the ability to reason and project our thoughts to the future, so we need to listen to our brains sometimes rather than our bodies when it comes to food. Its just that some people find this harder than others.

The other problem is that quite often the modern diet is missing vital vitamins, minerals and nutrients, which means that even though we have eaten enough calories to sustain our daily metabolism there is something our body is craving.
The problem this leads to is that in order to tell us that we are missing a vital nutrient, our body remains hungary. It has no way of distinguishing to us what nutrient we are missing. Therefore we feel hungary and grab the nearest and easiest thing we can eat (which is usually high calorie and un-nutritious), and therefore continue to feel hugary and continue to eat.

This is how people become overweight, and also why they become often very unhappy. They are confused as to why they can't stop eating when everyone around them can. If we eat a balanced diet in the first place (I also don't beleive in Vitamin supplements - you should be able to get all the vitamins you need from food), then we do not end up in this viscious cycle. However, convenience food is more often than not lacking in nutrition and this is how the problem arises.


I think it is silly to sue McDonald's for making you fat, it is your responsibility to think about what you put in your mouth, but I do beleive that fast food establishments have a responsibility to provide nutritious, un-addictive foods.

xx


....so does it come with a hat?


PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:quote:Originally posted by fluffy napalm fairy:
May I just ask - do you really think pictures of skinny women are what you should strive to look like? honestly? I'm not skinny - I think I'm the perfect weight but that's cos I love every inch of me and don't want to change. And I don't want to be skinny. I look at models with 12-year-old figures and think 'shit that's no woman! Nobody's gonna want to sleep with that!' Cos it's true.

right on gurl


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Pele:
Anyway..just wanted to clarify!
(PS..can you copy me into that photo you are sending to Flash Fire? I want to blow it up into poster size and put it on my ceil...wait...did I say that? .. ) i got a cardboard cut out... life size if you want it. for some reason they made the blow up inproportionate .


so yeah i think my eyes skipped a line of your post, they tend to do that at stupid o'clock am.
i dig it, but i still gotta love an average chick, those skinny ones just dont do it.
my ex was 14stone maybe 15 when i met her 4 years ago, she went on some weightwatchers regieme 14 months back, now looks erm _______.
anyway so women should be who they want to be, and not be lead on by the media.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by thingeymajig:
The other problem is that quite often the modern diet is missing vital vitamins, minerals and nutrients, which means that even though we have eaten enough calories to sustain our daily metabolism there is something our body is craving.
The problem this leads to is that in order to tell us that we are missing a vital nutrient, our body remains hungary. It has no way of distinguishing to us what nutrient we are missing. Therefore we feel hungary and grab the nearest and easiest thing we can eat (which is usually high calorie and un-nutritious), and therefore continue to feel hugary and continue to eat.
This is actually not true. Our body tells us what we are missing through cravings. When my iron levels pitch low, I crave red meat or dark greens. When sugar levels are off we crave sweets,
beta's we crave things like carrots, sodium or iodine levels usually results in the cravings of salty foods. The list goes on and on..... People are simply not taught to listen to their bodies.
Also here, most people mistake the sensation of thirst for hunger, which is why a person should always drink before they eat.

There is alot of focus on foods and such, but you know what? The person walking down the street that people scoff at so readily might have a thyroid issue (I know a few of those, it is devistating for them at first) or some other such problem. I am AVERAGE sized for the american woman and yet I have been called a cow during a performance, and once by a woman larger than me!
No one really knows and yet, the judgements are being made. Why is it the fat person eating at McD's get ragged on more than the thin people, when they are following the same diet, evidentally? There is a serious double standard being made by quick judgementalisms.

It isn't always diet and obese does not mean rotund by health standard, and yet what I see is alot of people quick to slap that down as an excuse. And obese people who want to lose weight have a hard time with it because diets and surgeries and other "instant" treatments treat the symptom, not the fact that there are some serious underlying psychological issues at hand.
Not to mention body shape, predispostitions, metabolisms that exasserbate the emotional issues when a person does lose weight and still doesn't look like Kate Moss.
I think self-acceptence, and then acceptance of others should be taught first and foremost.

When John Popper from Blues Travellor lost over 200 pounds he had a team of people helping him, and know what it resulted in? Now he is a chain smoker. He has an addictive personality. His first addiction was food, now it is smoking. He had the money to invest to figure this out, most don't, and it still didn't help really. Trading one vice for another is not really curing the issue, and he had help! How are people who can't afford trainers, doctors, dieticians and Richard Simmons supposed to do it? We have a sabotaging culture, "Here have this chocolate bar and lose weight because it is healthy!?". Be happy with who you are, it is all about the inside, but you are fat so therefore we don't want to know what is inside..... And this starts young, and it starts at home, and we are exposed to it, whether we admit it or not.

Wanna know the other reason I really feel for these people? Because that is how I see myself! I realized it last night. Now, alot of you have seen my website and have seen me, so you know I am not carrying around a set of steal belted radials around my waist...but that is how I feel about myself every time I look in the mirror, or worse at pictures.
My parents taught me to worry about what everyone else thinks, to slide into social norms if I could and to blend. Even when I tried, I never did. I am a performer, and it shows in my personality. Media has a HUGE impact on me. I would love nothing more than to be in Cirque Du Soliel someday but you know what? It will NEVER happen. I do not have the body type they want, and I know it. It is a harsh realisation to have to rearrange your dreams because your hip bones are set too widely naturally, and i am shaped like a woman not a 12 year old boy. And that is something I have been dealing with for about a year now, and adapting for. Whether we like it or not, media does impact our lives, our goals and consequently our outlooks in the societies that allow us to have this conversation in a global capacity.
I agree that in more deprived cultures, they are most likely not influenced by media.

DFQ, I completely applaude your confidence. I think it is amazing and I envy that. I know if I had that kind of comfort and confidence I would be able to do so much more. I am working on it though.
I also think that the self-confidence/personal outlook issue is genetic and it frightens me. I surround my son with people who love him, who tell him he is wonderful and handsome and really pump him up. And he will still say he is fat (he is REALLY skinny and eats everything in sight). He says he is stupid and a bad boy. So he either gets it from someone in school or from his own insecurities, which he would've inherited from me, because no one at home tells him these things, ever. And he is only 8. This scares me. Now he wants to be a child model, but is too afraid to try, despite how much we encourage him. He is exactly like me, even though I try to shelter him from my own insecurities. I don't even want him to learn by example.

Obesity, gluttony, anorexia, bulemia; the issues that are not genetic physical malfunctions are psychological issues and can not be treated as easily as turning away a candy bar. And people with these issues do put alot of stock in what others think. They need physical and psychological help, not people looking funny at them when they walk by, making judgements. The guy at the restaraunt ordered seafood, which came with a salad. About as healthy as you can get.

PK....I like the sound of that cut-out! So, if your gurl doesn't take it first does that mean I pay for shipping?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


SmokyDavy
Do my poi look too small in this?
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 17th Jan 2002
Total posts: 394
Posted:Last time I checked, People magazine hasn't voted in a fat man as sexiest man in the world ever, and I don't know any obesce men that have girls all over them.. Except in rap videos.


Personally, I like a girl with a nice round ass.


But how about those fake boobs!?!? There's an enormous (sorry 'bout the pun) amount of girls in this city with fake boobs, and not usually girls that need them either. Personally I think that its a lump of fat and mamory gland with a nipple but obviously they mean more to a lot of people.

I guess the large girls usually have large boobs so they don't have to worry about that tho.



fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:lol - by DFQ do you mean me Pele? Cos I'm FNF last time I checked

Seems like I don't need my confidence applauding but my naievity and misunderstanding put straight!

Is America worse for these insecurities and disorders? Or is the whole world bad?

I think the ability to become anorexic, gluttenous, bulemic, obese etc... is a very, very individual and personal issue but I don't agree that you can blame it on our culture and media and stuff. It all comes from within.

Critisizing magazines and films is all too easy - when it comes down to it all the problems have to be sorted in your own head. Easy said I know but I sincerely think it's true. I may not have had weight issues but I have had other problems and in the end you are the only person responsible for your happiness. Some people are not equipped to deal with that responsibility in their lives and should have support and aid when needed, but not excuses. Excuses just stop us making things better.

thank you PK


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I am sooooo sorry FNF...really. I know who you are and I love you for it! *pele scratching in brain to stir out the webs*

That was my point, that people need psychological help more than their plate being taken away. But a LARGE part of culture here is the dieting industry, (meaning it is one of the top 3 money making industries in the US) that creates chocolate "nutrition" bars the size of your little finger and promotes these as a meal to lose weight with these lovely, thin people in the ad. Yes, here it is as bad as all that. It is not just on tv, but radio, magazines covers (so even if you don't read them, you pass by it in the supermarket line and SEE it), in the grocery store, on billboards as you drive down the street. It is undeniable and many "heavy" people want to be like the person in that ad so desperately, they would do anything. It can be painful, truly.

LOL Fiery Flow...you must love Jennifer Lopez then! There is a bellydancer (Beata) that I need to agree with here..."I thank J.Lo for bringing bubble butts back in style!"

The whole pastic surgery thing is scary, and my understanding is that it is addictive. I have toyed with it (especially liposuction), but doubt I would ever do it. I think it should be reserved for reconstruction. *shrug*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:These problems come from within? So people with anorexia and bulimia are born that way?

There is a bit of evidence that suggests some cases of anorexia and bulimia are brain disorders from birth but even if this evidence unfolds to become conclusive it will not encompass all cases of anorexia and bulimia.

What explains the rest of the cases? Something causes it and it is something powerful because it's crazy how common these eatting disorders are.

It is a psychological problem Unless it is some sort of gas that only exists america and has trace amounts in britain and australia. Becuase it sure doesn't exist most other places in the world. Psychological problems have causes.

[ 19. February 2003, 09:07: Message edited by: Astar ]



Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Aster what are you going on about?

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I was responding napalm fairys comment that it comes from within.

The gas stuff was a sarcastic example of what could cause anorexia other then external forces causing psychological problems.



Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Pele:
Magnus, you know I love you but I have to tell you that the mindset you displayed is one of the ones I was ranting over. Genetic obesity is actually not uncommon. I know several people who have been diagnosed with the predisposition. All of them very active, health concious people (in fact, my cousin's wife who had her stomach removed could outdance most of the trained dancers I knew over the course of a whole night). It is not about the food issues a good share of the time. Now, the genetic thing can be battled, but it takes *alot* more to do so. My (adoptive) family is one of the genetic ones. A few good friends of mine are also in that category. Just as much as there are people out there who can not put on weight, there are those who can not take it off. But Pele, 30 years ago, less than a quarter of the U.S. population was overweight. Today, over 60% of the population is overweight and most of those are obese. That means that at LEAST 2/3 of obesity today isn't "genetic" because genetic drift doesn't happen in a single generation like that. Furthermore, I've noticed that most of my obese patients are under 40. Even about half of the teenagers I see around are overweight.

I ask patients what they eat all the time and I get remarkable answers that total to maybe 6-700 Calories a day. But then, I talk to the nutritionist working on that patient and I find out that the patient is working on 4,000 Calories per day. Or I walk through the hospital cafeteria and I never seen an obese person having the "salad" that they claim to me that they have for lunch. Most (but not all) have full meals that would be worth about two dinners for me.

So there is genetic, endocrine, and metabolic obesity. But the majority (i.e. not all of it) of obesity encountered in this country is due to eating too much and not exercising enough.

Oh, I saw a patient today who ISN'T obese. It was a pleasure. It's so rare in this state to see patients who are a healthy weight.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:one thing that keeps going round and round in my head recently, with all this talk of war issues, health issues and social issues, some of which discussed here and in other threads, and that is if i am to become a dad, what kind of world am i bringing my child into?. i know i could do my very best to love and educate. but doesnt it feel quite scary, life is so presious.
i'd hope that if i ever did bring a child in to this world, that if he and/or she ever faced situations like these then they would be comfortable to come to me and ask for help.
i never had a very close relationship with my parents, we didnt talk about these kinds of issues hardly.
i remember my first relationship when i was a teenager, she was 13 and bullemic, i do remeber asking my mom for information about it or why she would make herself sick and not eat for weeks, my mom never really gave me any answers or advice and just sat there with the same smile as my mom would.
i feel that the crap i was taught at school that was as usful to a slug as salt is, could have been spent more wisely on educating about the rise in such issues and how to deal with the situations were being faced with, were all going to have dealings with issues of any nature such as the ones discussed in this thread. but i wasnt educated enough at the age of 14 to deal with a teen relationship where my partner was bullemic.
just a few thoughts.
be kewl guys


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Astar:
Id like to see what mike says but personally I think obsesity is a term that is over used in medical terms and is quite often a copout. Theres only a few medical problems associated with actually being heavy. Such as back problems and joint stress. The real problems are muscle tone, heart condition, cholesterol, aerobic heatlh etc... Although these are related to obesity I think they are more related to life style. Simply put you can be fat by societys standards and still be a healthy person. There are lots of skinny people who have all the health problems I listed above. I would say a healthy diet is necesary but healthy diet is a dynamic thing based on your activity level and personal metabolism, health etc etc... Ok, so "obesity" is defined as a BMI above 30 (I think). I've been very overweight to the point of almost obese. That was weigh I weighed 200. I now weigh 160 and believe me, I feel much better.

Yes, it is possible to be obese and healthy. There was an obese participant in the Hawaii Ironman triathlon last year who did just fine. But he's the exception, not the rule. T

he majority of obese people I see on the street have trouble walking, let alone getting exercise. I see a lot of obese people claim "but I get exercise!" Then I see them at the gym and...well...no they really don't. I see them get in the water and paddle around a bit, but it's less exercise than they'd just get walking.

65% of the population in the state of Michigan is obese. 85% of our patients are. That extra 20% is the price of obesity. The research is clear that obesity is a risk for a number of diseases, just like smoking is. These include diabetes, hypertension, and a recent study even found cancer to be obesity-related. Furthermore, obesity makes medical procedures much more difficult, increases mortality from operations, and complicates physical diagnosis. It also makes it take longer for you to recover from trauma, and is associated with obstructive sleep apnea.

So yes, you can be onese and healthy, but these people are by far in the minority.

I think the message I would want to get across is that people who are overweight should be treated with respect and dignity, but that it is generrally not healthy to be obese.

Notice that there is nothing about "OK." It is not my job to determine whether what my patients are doing is "OK." I don't care if it's IV drug abuse, unprotected sex, self-mutilation, or whatever else. It is not my job to judge them morally, the only judgement I will draw is whether it is healthy or risky.

Does that make more sense?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:both posts made perfect sense mike.

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by 1112:
one thing that keeps going round and round in my head recently, with all this talk of war issues, health issues and social issues, some of which discussed here and in other threads, and that is if i am to become a dad, what kind of world am i bringing my child into?. i know i could do my very best to love and educate. but doesnt it feel quite scary, life is so presious.

i feel that the crap i was taught at school that was as usful to a slug as salt is, could have been spent more wisely on educating about the rise in such issues and how to deal with the situations were being faced with, were all going to have dealings with issues of any nature such as the ones discussed in this thread. As a "surprise, I never wanted to have a kid in the first place" parent, I can empathize. As a once bulemic, I empathize. As a person whose parents had no real answers, I empathize.

I asked my mom once, a couple years ago what she thought about me in teen years (because bulemia effects your personality too. I was the biggest wretch on earth!). She mentioned some personality things and then said I was too thin, unhealthy like. When asked why she didn't do anything, she said because she figured I would've fought with her and eventually I would grow out of it. Our parents don't really understand these things, and schools want to ignore them, which makes the education so much harder.
I remember there was a rash of suicides when I was in school, and I wanted answers and there was nothing. No one had anything to offer us.
I think the thoughts you are having are so admirable and so wonderful, a real sign that you will make a great dad someday. I fear for my son in sooooo many countless ways, and while I want him to talk to me, I encourage him to talk to me, sometimes it is like pulling teeth. It is important to have other people around that your child trusts to confide in, in case s/he doesn't feel comfortable talking with you. Just make sure that these people are on the same wave length as you are in the information they offer. Also, I approach topics before Noah brings them up or before he can hear them elsewhere. He is not a sheltered child in any sense of the word (no I don't take him to strip clubs or anything! ). I think that by beating him to the punch also helps to alleviate the nervousness of him approaching me. The key is to watch what he is watching/taking interest in, see how he reacts and then approach it accordingly. I also encourage creative outlets, as many as his heart desires, including experimenting with his appearance. By allowing that I am allowing him a bit of freedom and decision power and also it allows me to guage him and where he might go to next. Right now he is all about punk sports stuff. Which is fine.
*shrug* I don't know. I still think if people should need a license to own a dog, they should for children as well. At least pets come with owners manuals for care.

Mike, I will fully admit we are becomming a more and more sedentary and well "preserved" society thanks to the many hobbies/careers that allow for laziness, and let's face it, it can be far more amusing to kick Michael Jordan's butt at a video game than play ball in 90 degree heat.
Yet, how many of us are willing to give up creature comforts and live like our ancestors to have their health? I, for one, am not totally.
I don't hear medical experts pressuring the food and drug administration or major corporations to stop making these ick filled foods or conveniences so that society will stop the downward spiral. I also don't see a stop to surgeries that are not for health/reconstructive reasons. Even fitness machines are being made that do not make the user work. It's all about the almighty dollar. And as long as we buy into this stuff, they will continue to be developed. And fat people are human, and want these things too, especially since a big part of our culture is materialistically based. What you have or do not have can make or break you in many social arenas. So they are supposed to go without? What are we doing to really encourage and help the people who want to be helped? Stickig them in an aerobics class is not help, it is demeaning. I have been that route. (the key element with anything, they need to want to be helped.)

And Mike, I will maintain that alot of overeaters do so because they have psychological issues that go untreated. It is why I was bulemic and not anorexic. I like the tastes and textures of food. I found comfort it in and it was a way for me to eat more than I wanted really, and not be fat. But I was soooo unhealthy. At 17 years old I had to take naps to make it through a day. A day that started at 7 am and ended at 11pm. I should not have needed a nap.

I completely blame parents for the newer generations though. They are allowing tech hobbies to babysit children and they give them crap microwaveable dinners because they are easier, and the kids can do it themselves. I kick Noah out the door. I give him "other" options and make him do those, and while he acts like reading or drawing is a crime after I turn off the tube, he loosens up and enjoys whatever he chooses to do after his fit is over. I also don't buy crap food for him. That is for the grands and aunts to do, not me. But then, when we go out, I have one of the only children who will eat a salad or (and this left my friends stunned at a cast party) go through a buffet and come back loaded with carrots and celery sticks and such. To snack on, he gets cereal instead of chips. At least Cheerios are better than pringles.
He does get treats, a little at a time, and only if he eats well.

That I do say, I blame wholey on parents who find parenting to be an inconvenience. Then again, there still aren't great parenting manuals that come with the stork that delivers the kid.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I know for a fact that if your obeese you can loose the weight.

The only true way to loose weight is to expend more calories that you take in.

You could eat anything that you wanted to as long as you worked off everything that you ate and then some.

I use the example of a good friend of mine. When I took vacation after my training for my job he was at around 350-400 lbs, when I took a vacation again back in June he was at about 170! He actually weighed less than I did!

How did he do it? He quit eating junk food and got a good job at a dairy working 14 hours a day, hard physical labor. He expended more calories than he took in.

It can be done, you just have to set you mind to it and not give up.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


poiaholic22
member

Member Since: 22nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 531
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Pele:

I completely blame parents for the newer generations though. They are allowing tech hobbies to babysit children and they give them crap microwaveable dinners because they are easier, and the kids can do it themselves. I kick Noah out the door. I give him "other" options and make him do those, and while he acts like reading or drawing is a crime after I turn off the tube, he loosens up and enjoys whatever he chooses to do after his fit is over. I also don't buy crap food for him. That is for the grands and aunts to do, not me. But then, when we go out, I have one of the only children who will eat a salad or (and this left my friends stunned at a cast party) go through a buffet and come back loaded with carrots and celery sticks and such. To snack on, he gets cereal instead of chips. At least Cheerios are better than pringles.
He does get treats, a little at a time, and only if he eats well.

That I do say, I blame wholey on parents who find parenting to be an inconvenience. Then again, there still aren't great parenting manuals that come with the stork that delivers the kid. RIGHT ON!

Another thing I would say is great about you exposing your son to new things before he discovers them on his own is that you can help mold his opinions of right and wrong.Rather than wait for him to learn these things on his own and make his own mind up about them you can get a better chance to steer him in the right direction.

For me personally,I don't care if I am ever in great cosmetic shape I just want to be in good physical shape.Being healthy is far more important to me than being attractive to everyone.I just wish I could convince more people of this.



Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Pele:


I don't hear medical experts pressuring the food and drug administration or major corporations to stop making these ick filled foods or conveniences so that society will stop the downward spiral. I also don't see a stop to surgeries that are not for health/reconstructive reasons. Even fitness machines are being made that do not make the user work.

And Mike, I will maintain that alot of overeaters do so because they have psychological issues that go untreated. It is why I was bulemic and not anorexic. I like the tastes and textures of food. I found comfort it in and it was a way for me to eat more than I wanted really, and not be fat. But I was soooo unhealthy. At 17 years old I had to take naps to make it through a day. A day that started at 7 am and ended at 11pm. I should not have needed a nap.Pele, I disagree. I DO see health professionals pressuring the food industry to stop this madness. The industry is interested in selling snack food and making money off of it. As our tastebuds become more and more spoiled, they increase the flavor of their snack foods more and more by adding more fat, sugar, salt, and chemicals.

And I don't deny that there are psychological underpinnings to a fair portion of obesity.

Part of the problem is exemplified by the SPAM mail I keep getting. "Stop exercising, eat Pizza, sit on the couch, and lose weight!" That is a DIRECT quote from the title of an E-mail I got today.

The "Atkins Diet' is another example of the problem.

And another part of the problem is in the "diet" and "lo-cal" foods that we eat. They train us that it's possible to have sweets without the guilt, and that destroys our internal regulatory systems for sensing how much we've had to eat. Now, I have a diet soda once a month, that's a different thing entirely, but people subsist on this stuff. That's just bad.

People want the magic cure that allows them to eat more, exercise less, and yet miraculously lose weight. SORRY! THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS. NOR SHOULD IT WORK THAT WAY.

There is ONE WAY and ONLY ONE WAY to lose weight and keep it off. That is to change your lifestyle that you take in fewer calories per day than you burn. That's not as simple as it sounds, since if you have been obese, you will require 15% fewer calories per day to maintain your body weight than someone who has never been obese. Regaining your internal regulatory drive that controls your apetite is the only way to maintain it. Even bariatric surgery, or "stomach stapling" as it is known in the public forces you to reduce your caloric intake. But if you're looking for the magic pill or diet that makes it effortless, it's not going to happen. YOU and ONLY YOU have to put in the effort, blood, sweat and tears to look after your own health.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:It's funny, as I was reading that last post, I happened to receive the E-mail mentioned, about eating pizza and losing weight. Here's the text:


: )))

If you're like me, you've tried EVERYTHING to lose
weight. I know how you feel - the special diets,
miracle pills, and fancy exercise equipment never helped me lose a pound either. It seemed like the harder I tried, the bigger I got, until I heard about a product called Power Diet Plus.

You're probably thinking to yourself, "Oh geez, not another miracle diet pill!" Like you, I was skeptical at first, but my sister swore it helped her lose 23 pounds in just two weeks, so I told her I'd give it a shot. I mean, there was nothing to lose except a lot of weight! Let me tell you, it was the best decision I've ever made. Period. Six months later, as I'm writing this message to you, I've gone from 355 pounds
to 210 pounds, and I haven't changed my exercise routine or diet at all. Yes, I still eat pizza, and lots of it!

I was so happy with the results that I contacted the manufacturer and got permission to resell it - at a BIG discount. I want to help other people lose weight like I did, because it does so much for your self-esteem, not to mention your health.
I give you my personal pledge that Power Diet Plus
absolutely WILL WORK FOR YOU. If it doesn't, you can return it any time for a full refund.

If you are frustrated with trying other products, not having any success, and just not getting the results you were promised, then I recommend the only product that worked for me - POWER DIET
PLUS.

You're probably asking yourself, "Ok, so how does this stuff actually work?"

Power Diet Plus contains Lipotropic fat burners which are scientifically proven to increase metabolism and cause rapid weight loss. No "hocus pocus" in these pills - just RESULTS, RESULTS, RESULTS!!

Here is the bottom line ...

I can help you lose 10-15 pounds per week naturally, without exercising and without having to eat rice cakes all day. Just try it for one month - there's nothing to lose, and everything
to gain. You will lose weight fast - GUARANTEED. That is my pledge to you. "
--------------------

This is typical of any commercial for exercise equipment, diet plans or in this case, the 'miracle pill.' How many problems can you find with this sales pitch?

Oh, and after you've signed up for this bargain, I have a jug of miracle snake oil for sale...


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:A coupla things for the record...

Firstly, I am one of those guys who are naturally skinny, eat as much as I want of whatever I want, and can't gain a pound. In spite of how I alter my 'diet' or what exercises I engage in, I cannot gain weight and succeed only in toning what little muscle mass I have. I realize that most of that is due to my metabolism. I often take flak for being the skinny guy, probably not nearly as much flak as larger people do. But as it was pointed out, my thinness is only a negative aspect because of my sex. Were I a female, I would be the envy of women everywhere. (Except maybe for the excess body hair)

Also for the record, I don't like the word overweight. It implies that there is a 'correct weight.' There isn't. If your size or eating habits are causing a health problem, that's one thing. But I hate seeing people waste time, money & effort trying to acheive a body type that is virtually impossible to acheive and maintain. Be happy where you are.

Thirdly, fake boobs are ugly. Period.

Fouthly, I just came from an awesome concert and a large portion of the crowd were skinny little females in those nasty hip-hugging jeans. They ALL looked alike to me, and NONE of them was the least bit attractive. Those models you see on magazine covers and in ads for pimple cream may be the media's ideal woman, but not mine. I have this real moron thing I do, it's called thinking... & I, and many other guys, happen to appreciate the 'baroque' women, who actually have curvaceous bodies. Let's hear it for hips!


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


danaeefly
member
Location: planet eart
Member Since: 20th Feb 2003
Total posts: 9
Posted:Hi my problem was the oposite of your when Iwas 15 I was 36 kilos I was eating normally but I could'nt take weight so I decide to make a biet to grow biger and I was forcing myself to eat all the time and as much as possible it didn't work after with the time I grow a litle bit biger but my metabolism is like this it's only with gym that I can grow biger. to be so thin is as much difficult than to be big all the time the people are thinking that your sick or you take drug or your didn't eat. Everyboby have a different metabolisme the more important is to feel good with your own body I know somes girls they are big but so sexy cause they fell confident and they were somes sexy closes and the firt impresion you have is not (ho she is big!) but ( she's so sexy) . to much diet make you just obses with that eat god food not to fat and do some sport that's all pill are so bad it's just shit

all you need is love


Ali-bird
Ali-bird

member
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Jul 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:I just flicked through this topic, so major apologies if I offend anyone with what I say, but I think people are far too quick to blame others for their size. (cf. McDonalds law suit)

The bare fact is that the reason there are so many overweight people now is because we are so much more sedentary and inactive, and we eat so much more crap (salt, sugar, fat) than we used to even 50 years ago.

The only way to lose weight properly and keep it off is to change your lifestyle - to eat more healthily and take more exercise, so you use more calories than you consume, as a life change. Simple as that.

I accept that society and the media has a great deal to answer for, and particularly the Fast Food industry (although that law suit was taking the piss!!), but at the end of the day I believe in personal responsibility - the only person who makes you the way you are is you. If there is something you don't like about yourself (for whatever reason, peer pressure, media, trauma in your youth, whatever), use the help available to you to assist, but the only person who has the power to change that is you.

No pill, no diet, no fad of any kind will help anyone be happy with their body image, it's about self acceptance.

Whoever said earlier "Society SHOULD accept fat people. But this doesn't mean that junk food should be encouraged or that it's ok to be lazy" was absolutely spot on.

Read "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser, and see how all-pervasive fast food culture is, particularly in the US but all across the world now. I've made a real effot in the last year having read the whole thing to cook my own food and eat with my loved ones at a table rather than order a pizza in front of the TV. It's made me feel much healthier because I eat more fresh produce and less fat, *and* my relationships have improved because we talk more and spend more time together.

The fat thing is just a symptom of a wider problem with society being too consumptive and wanting instant gratification. You can only get what you work for, nothing is free or easy, and I think a lot of people do forget that.

To the people who have suffered from/are recovering from eating disorders - I have no experience of this really, but best of luck to you, I bet you are all fantastic people.


Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?


Ali-bird
Ali-bird

member
Location: London
Member Since: 19th Jul 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:Sorry, should have said, I'm about 10lb overweight myself due to a bit of inactivity and the medication I'm on. I'm not suggesting for a minute that there's anything wrong with being soft round the edges or a bit fat, I am purely concerned with the huge impact it is having on people's health.

I read somewhere that if the trends continue in young kids, *everyone* in the US will be overweight by 2050. Of course that's not true, there'll always be athletes and sporty people, but it is a scary statistic.

Here endeth my 2p worth

from the girl who skipped the gym today to go to the pub instead cos it's Friday.

xxxx


Why is it that everthing which is fun is illegal, immoral, or fattening?


Page: 12

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